Editors are leaving for various reasons. See: [[User:Timeshifter/Unresolved content disputes]]. Some editors are being driven away by the unresolved content disputes. The number of active editors might actually start rising again if we find ways to more efficiently and fairly resolve content disputes. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 20:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Editors are leaving for various reasons. See: [[User:Timeshifter/Unresolved content disputes]]. Some editors are being driven away by the unresolved content disputes. The number of active editors might actually start rising again if we find ways to more efficiently and fairly resolve content disputes. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 20:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
:I'm one who is currently about to leave (possibly not for good) because we just don't have a system in place for making sensible editors' consensus decisions actually happen against the opposition of the drama queens, the edit-warriors and the "nothing must ever change" brigade. Too much of a waste of my time and nerves staying around here.--[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 23:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
== Bold moves that end up as de facto successful ==
== Bold moves that end up as de facto successful ==
The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the discussion.
Consensus is in favor of changing the discussion link to Talk. Those in favor cite many reasons why this change will stimulate new editor participation, while most who oppose only state personal preference. They 'ayes' have it. — Edokter (talk) — 16:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. A lot of Wikipedia instructions tell people to post "on the talk page". However, it isn't obvious where this means, since the page is not labelled "talk page" but is labelled "discussion". This is very confusing, especially for someone unfamiliar with all the Wikipedia rules. Wny not change the text on the tab from "Discussion" to "Talk page" to match all the instructions? (By instructions I am referring to everything you get when you click Help, as well as so many of the templates used to tell posters why their edit was not accepted and how to fix it. (184.147.120.119 (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
At 17:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC) I changed the title of the post from 'Call talk pages "Talk Page"' to 'Call talk pages "Talk"', because there is a massive consensus among people supporting this change for using 'Talk' in specific and some opposition to 'Talk Page' in specific. Sven ManguardWha?17:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support continuity I don't much mind which is prefered or even if another name like "chatter" or "gobledigook" (well maybe not) is chosen, but I do think we would be better off with one name for all "talk pages" across the whole site. fredgandt00:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How about just calling it Talk. That one is even more heavily implied than discussion, although to me, discussion is so obvious that I feel this change is unneeded. Sven ManguardWha?02:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I support discussion. This is primarily because of the popularly brought up rule "This is not a forum for general talk about the article's subject". Georgia guy (talk) 14:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IsupportTalk because that's what most people call it anyway. @Georgia guy, talk and discussion are basically synonymous, so that rule could be changed to "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject". There's not really any difference. Bazonka (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is a little too specific. It would also only make sense for article talk pages. The proposal (I agree with in principal) is to name all talk pages the same way so that wherever users are guided to talk pages they are not confused by finding a "discussion" page but no "talk" page. fredgandt18:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Talk". The name "discussion" is simply never used for talk pages, so it is simply counterproductive to use it in the most prominent place of all. 124.168.87.221 (talk) 05:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Minor Oppose I don't want to be the lone dissenter here....and my reasons are mainly aesthetic. On places where it DOES say 'talk' it just kinda looks...off. It's probably just a matter of getting used to one over the other, but also the word 'discussion' seems to carry a better connotation, IMO, than 'talk'. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 07:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry Melodia, you're not alone. I've already stated my feelings but not my personal preference, since my preference goes against what I see as the best course of action (if any). I prefer "Discussion" too, but as is being mentioned time and time again here, "Talk" is a colloquialism we can't escape. If this proposal has any value (and I believe it does), it will be to set a standard, continuous use of one word across the site. If we were to choose "Discussion", we would have to change so many policies and templates etc. we would get nothing else done for years. Quite simply, "Talk" is too engrained to oust now, so supporting continuity may mean not getting the word we prefer, but we do get less confusion. fredgandt07:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Many templates use "see the talk page" or similar for direction, and it's more common to see "talk page" in discourse than "discussion page". Do international language versions of Wikipedia use the same word? In any case, it feels more natural and intuitive to use "talk" and I fully support the motion to change it doktorbwordsdeeds07:12, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for "talk". It should be labelled as what we call it to avoid completely unnecessary confusion (I'm thinking especially of non-native English speakers, as well as newbies who didn't get enough sleep last night) - and it's always called "the talk page". Pesky (talk …stalk!) 07:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. "Talk page" is a jargon term, which we should normally avoid in the UI. The name "discussion" is more accessible. But considering how likely it is that we'll change all the help pages, policy pages, and user comments to stop saying "talk pages" (read: will never happen), this is the more prudent alternative. Dcoetzee09:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support "Discussion" makes a bit more sense especially to the newcomer than the (relatively vague) "talk", but "talk pages" is simpler and easier for most purposes. sonia♫ 09:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. If I remember correctly, the tabs for the talk pages were labelled "Talk" when I joined the project. I think it was changed along with the switch from Monobook to Vector, and I think this particular change was based on the findings of the usability project. Apparently, we used to have a lot of readers who had no idea that Wikipedia articles have associated discussion pages and had no desire to try out the cryptic "Talk" tab. HansAdler13:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This was not as you describe. Some versions of Twinkle and Friendly used to include a script which changed the title of the "discussion" tab to "talk". This script was disabled a while back (around the time of the change to Vector). — This, that, and the other (talk)04:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose On the contrary, we should change the help, docs, etc. to speak of "discussion pages" rather than "talk pages". "Discussion" seems to make more sense as a descriptor, particularly for outsiders. --Cybercobra(talk)21:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tentative support, but also question for clarification: are we talking only about the link in the tab row at the top of each page, where it now says "Article | Discussion" or "Project page | Discussion", or is "Discussion" also found somewhere else? If it's only that one link, I'd go for changing it, for consistence with the actual namespace labels, but perhaps go for "Talk page" rather than plain "Talk". Fut.Perf.☼21:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just that tab link I believe, and the original proposer did say "talk page", although it's gotten a bit garbled along the way. sonia♫ 22:06, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am the proposer and that is what I meant. "Talk" would be just as clear. I am glad the idea has support. What happens next? Do I have to request anyone in particular anywhere in particular to make the change? Or do I wait more time and then request? Or something else? Thank you everyone for understanding. (184.147.120.119 (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Here's what happens next. This change appears to have significant support, so this discussion has become a request for comment to get input from the broader community. It will run for 30 days gathering input. After the 30 days, somebody that hasn't participated in the dicussion will judge the consensus and close the discussion with a summary of what the community has decided. If there is consensus for the change, somebody will file a Bugzilla request to have the software changed to make the pages show talk instead of discussion. That may seem like a long time, but once started the process runs until it's completed. So you aren't required to do anything else, but you are certainly welcome to if you'd like to. Best regards. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 04:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The argument is flawed because in many pages, we tell users to look at the "discussion page". "Discussion" is much much more easy to understand than "talk" for a new user—what's a "talk page"? Do we call conference rooms "talk rooms" or forums "talk boards"? Discussion is more newbie-friendly; if we need to reword help pages, then we should do that to make it more sensible in the long run. /ƒETCHCOMMS/02:37, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Discussion page" results, etc. Just because more pages use "Talk" over "Discussion" is no reason to change to "Talk". "Discussion" is far more understandable to new users—and that's what counts, no matter how many changes we have to make on our end. We must make Wikipedia simpler to understand and navigate for newbies. /ƒETCHCOMMS/15:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support: (edit conflict) It would make sense to have consistency between what the tab's text is and what users refer to the page as. It seems to me that "talk page" is the common term, so if we are going to continue to use "talk page" in our comments, help and policy pages, templates, etc., then we should change the tab to say "talk" or "talk page" to achieve that consistency. If we are going to continue to have the tab say "discussion", then we should actually start calling the page to which it links the "discussion page" instead of the "talk page" in our comments, help and policy pages, templates, etc. Regards, —{|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|} 05:26, 5 December 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Oppose The word talk is misleading because we don't talk there; we write. Readers might confuse this with an audio interface such as Siri. Warden (talk) 09:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is actually a good argument for renaming the whole talk namespace to discussion. Good luck getting consensus on that though. Yoenit (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I hadn't considered that: "talk" could give the misleading impression that it is possible to hear the article read out to you by clicking that tab. Make of that what you will, though. — This, that, and the other (talk)10:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support But "Talk", not "Talk page". The latter is ghastly. If you prefer "Discussion", I'm sure we can write some CSS/JS to give you the old style. —Tom Morris (talk) 14:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral If you are concerned about 'Talk' being an audio interface, then you could change the tab to Discuss, though it's not as friendly as Talk. Whatever is the consensus is fine, but I do agree that consistency is best either way. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support for "Talk". Click on "Discussion", and what does it take you to? A page that has the title "Talk:Page" right there at the top. The proposal makes very good sense, per the principle of least surprise. I've also noticed when I talk to non-editors in real life that when I explain to them how we use talk pages, they ask me how they can find the talk page for a given article. I find that I have to tell them to click on "Discussion", and that's the way to get to "Talk". Admittedly, it's not that hard to figure out, but it really is more user-friendly to make this change. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support with comments - I agree that if someone wants to call their talk page something else its fine and that the default would be better as Talk page. However, it would be fairly easy to create a script to rename the page so an individual can call it whatever they want (i.e. talk, Talk page, discuss, etc). --Kumioko (talk) 21:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support new, and especially foreign language editors are often confused about our nomenclature. We need to be consistent, and it's typically easier to change a label than to change what many people call them. Buddy431 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in favor for consistency, but then we should go with Discussion. It describes the function of the page much better than the vague 'Talk' . —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:18, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Fetchcomms is right, 'talk page' is not user friendly, actually it's such a weird name that if I were not a regular Wikipedia I would probably be confused as to what it means. In fact just a few days ago I changed my signature and talk page header from 'talk' to 'contact' for this reason. If the problem is the lack of consistency referring to the namespace, then the change is needed at the help page level, not in the display tabs. For what it's worth, I would support moving the namespace to Discussion:; in the meantime I will oppose changing the displayed tab to "talk page", as 'discussion' is much more straightforward. CharlieEchoTango (contact) 08:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying that new users should just learn random things about how Wikipedia works before contributing? Just because people learn what "talk page" means later does not mean we should expect people to take the time to figure that out before they get impatient and just give up. /ƒETCHCOMMS/01:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support "Talk". The menu option "Talk" is shorter than "Discussion" and the term "talk-page" provides a distinctive, while still short, name for such wiki-pages. A Google search for "talk-page" reveals it is closely linked (80%) to wiki websites, whereas a search for "discussion page" reveals wide, rambling use in many other websites, with no specific meaning as to what "discussion" entails. For over 6 years, many Wikipedia users have understood that a "talk-page" is not an open forum to blog about ideas; however, "discussion" might be imagined as a different type of page, perhaps open to blog-forum posts or other general discussions. Name the menu tab "Talk" to be more precise and avoid confusion. -Wikid7713:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support for the purpose of consistency, I support "talk". "Discussion" is overly long and the page is called a talk page, not a discussion page. We shouldn't rename the talk namespace to discussion though. Talk and Discussion have the same meaning, the only difference being "Discussion" is much longer lengthwise. Alpha_Quadrant(talk)17:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Question How would this affect Monobook? I like the idea for the default skin, since it's simpler for people not already familiar with Wikipedia, but I prefer "discussion" for my own purposes simply because I'm accustomed to it. Nyttend (talk) 03:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Talk" - as a volunteer in #wikipedia-en-helpconnect, I've found that many new users find it disorienting when we direct them to the "talk page". Often, the reaction is "Wait, where is that?" and we have to explain how "discussion" == "talk". ~ Matthewrbowker Say hi!05:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Talk Per common name, common sense, it's shorter, it's more inviting, it's consistent with the namespace. A small step towards UI sanity. Ocaasit|c07:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support this obvious and long-overdue change. I don't know what caused it, but I'm impressed by the sudden outbreak of common sense in this thread. Robofish (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, although I also think its neither here nor there. Even if English is not your first language, if you can't find the "talkpage" by clicking on the word "discussion", you should probably think about whether editing Wikipedia is the best use of your time. --FormerIP (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, though I would support a broad effort to update references to "talk pages" to "discussion pages". Not sure on the namespace; I don't think keeping it "Talk" is necessarily confusing. PowersT19:13, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't mind informal mentions and references to talk pages, but changing the actual tab seems to imply (intentionally or otherwise) a morphing of the pages' purpose, to general debate about the article rather than for content development as it is now. That's an erosion of wp:NOTFORUM. 66.127.55.52 (talk) 17:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Talk - It's a common name, and it's more consistent with the namespace and what everyone calls it. Very rarely have I ever seen someone say "discussion page".--UnionhawkTalkE-mail19:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support–It's not only far more commonly used, it's also the name of the namespace. "Discussion" does sound a bit more formal, but the consistency with most usage and with the namespace system makes it preferable to me. oknazevad (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I prefer keeping it "Discussion" especially for new readers and editors. In many dialects of English talk and discussion are not the same thing. Discussion implies for many of us civil, rational analysis and discourse. It is not surprising that in shorthand discussions talk is used more often than discussion; it is shorter. That does not mean we should formally accept "Talk" as the default tab. There should be no problem in providing an optional display for those editors who wish to use a "Talk" tab. But for new users "Discussion" is clearer and more appropriate. --Bejnar (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, when we say "talk page" all the time, when several of the templates we use (such as {{Expert-subject}}) say "talk page", and when all the namespace names use the word "talk", it probably makes it confusing to new editors when the tab doesn't also say "talk". and while the second and third could be fixed, the first can't - both because we would need to go through all the pages in the Discussion: namespace, the User discussion: namespace, etc. to fix them, and since users are so used to using this term that they will keep doing so, even to new users. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu09:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Neither term is precisely correct, and arguments could be made either way. "Discussion" is not precisely correct, because a user talk is not for discussing the user or the user page. It's important to keep things simple, and consistent. Any potential benefit of "discussion" being more clear than "talk" is lost through the constant confusion (new) users have, wondering what we mean by a "talk page". Especially when their own 'user talk' is called what it is. The word "talk" is short, snappy, matches the internals, and isn't all that mystifying. Keep it simple. I think this is a classic case where a 'usability study' did not truly consider all ramifications of a change - if we were designing a new mediawiki from scratch, we might go for 'discussion' - but we're not; "talk" is ingrained into our culture; it is unrealistic to change "talk" to "discussion" in every place (indeed, for historical discussion, it's effectively impossible). Changing "discussion" (tab) to "talk" is simple. Chzz ► 00:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - For consistency with the mainspace and with what we actually call it, and to be less confusing to newcomers. I think their nature won't change regardless of what is actually written on the tab, so no possible harm done. Zidanie5(talk)13:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Instead of changing the tab labels, we should rename the namespace from TalktoDiscussion. Why? Because I think it is more natural to advice someone to participate in an article discussion by editing the discussion page and talk gives a stronger impression that the page is for general talk about the article topic. Should I make a counter proposal to rename the namespace? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 16:21, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I, personally, could only support that if you can also have all past discussions changed from "talk page" to "discussion page", and make sure that all Wikipedians, including those who happen to be on Wikibreak in paralell to the discussion, will use the word "Discussion page" in stead of "talk page" - and I don't think that you could do that. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu16:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ovbious Support. Well, yes. It seems obvious that some people who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia, might say, "Talk page? Where's the talk page?" and all they would see is "Discussion". All I'm saying is that it seems obvious. yrtnegtalkcontr23:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Did nobody read two week ago's signpost, where it becomes clear that such inconsistencies are exactly (one of) the kind of difficulties newcomers are experiencing, or why is it that this is not mentioned a single time? Unfortunately, topics like these always result in wikiarguing, so I prefer abstaining from further input on this. Nageh (talk) 23:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To people seriously think that the tab being called discussion somehow elevates the level of discourse on the page? And that the solution is to change the namespace to "discussion"? Even worse, are people serious in renaming both to "collaboration" or something likewise obfuscatory and multi-syllabic?! That's pretty surprising, so I apologize for my incredulity. It seems to be much easier to change the site CSS to say "talk" than change every single link and mention of the talk namespace in order to satisfy our sense of superiority. The only cogent argument I can see against using "talk" is that it mischaracterized what actually goes on in talk pages--we don't "talk", we write. But that seems needlessly pedantic. I guess we can chalk this up to the community's willingness to accept the status quo because they are used to it, consequences for new users be damned. Protonk (talk) 23:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support That was one of my first questions when I discovered non-Mainspace Wikipedia. BTW, it's already done over at the Simple English Wiki. Zlqchn (talk) 12:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; discussion was never a good alternativ to talk - same problems. I suggest Collaboration - and change the Namespaces accordingly (I think we can set up a namespace redirect from Collaboration->Talk and change relevant links). Then make an effort to stop saying "talk page" :) --Errant(chat!)13:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I oppose for reasons of dignity and the value of description. "Discussion" is a nicely dignified word, appropriate for the prominent position given to it on each article in this encyclopedia. "Talk", in the sense of discussion, as opposed to exposition or demonstration, seems quite the opposite. And "discussion" is a better descriptor, in part because "talk" can only clearly have a sense which is general for the page. Click on the "discussion" link and you are brought to a page which hosts a discussion, a particular discussion. You are not brought to a page which hosts a talk, unless one takes "talk" in an obscure sense for such a usage. Even in the case of their general senses, "discussion" seems to be a better descriptor. What happens, or is supposed to happen, on the page, "discussion" accurately describes that; and that is a discursive conversation in any medium focused on a particular matter. "Talk" can have a sense which can refer to such a thing by subsuming it under a more general heading, but as such it does not pick out it so specifically. Lastly, "talk" having many other senses, if it is taken in these, it is prevented from referring to such as "discussion" does. This last point has been partly illustrated above by others.--Atethnekos (talk) 03:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support This would make things easier for new editors, and would have some consistency when linking to the talk page. And changing the name to something different than "disucssion" or "talk" and trying to get editors to change their habits is untenable. Let's call a spade and spade. Angryapathy (talk) 15:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I found this slightly confusing when I first started editing, and I have seen cases of new users not understanding what the "Talk" page was or how to find it because it was labelled "Discussion". The pages are actually named "Talk:" in the urls, links, and search box. We could easily change any mentions of "Discussion" pages in the Help section etc to "Talk"; I think that a majority already refer to "Talk". If some people think that "Discussion" is clearer or sounds "better" I don't see that as rationale to leave the current fractured terminology the way it is. And it would be a whole lot easier to change everything to "Talk" than change everything to 'Discussion". And "Talk" is already the term most users use in posts. -MsBatfish (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support the use of "Talk:". It's confusing for new editors when they try to search for the talk page and all they find is "Discussion". In addition, FWIW, it has already been changed to "Talk" for User talk pages. —mc10 (t/c)17:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's a total usability howler to refer to the "Talk page" in policies, templates and communication from other users and not have a button marked Talk that the new users can click on. If we were to hire an expensive usability consultant, this is one of the first things they would tear us a new orifice over. Let's save the money and just change the label. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose - I don't disagree with any of the arguments made by either side, but find myself ultimately preferring the present "Discussion". I will only say that *if* the tab is changed to Talk, a notice will need to be posted at the top of each talkpage clarifying that the purpose of the page is for discussion of the article and not "talk" in the sense of random back-and-forth chatter. Milkunderwood (talk) 00:35, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. One of the most absurd issues with UI is that it labels elements by its own jargon distinct from the wiki parlance. But this was a WMF decision, so I'm not holding my breath any change in this area will happen. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Talk is an informal version of Discussion. Talk also has multiple meanings, like lecture or speak, while discussion refers more to debate. and, we arent talking, we are writing. i know talk is now commonly used to refer to debate/discussion, but i prefer to keep the language precise. I do note that we have chosen "talk" as the term on Simple English. I wonder if other WP's use a word that is more informal or formal for their discussion pages. Oh, and i would prefer that we refer to Discussion rather than Talk in our guidelines (maybe do some global changes, to refer back to the original posters concern. I note most people prefer Talk: maybe im just old fashioned. Id tell you all to get off my lawn, but i noticed its not mine...:)Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support because it reflects language usage. The word "Talk" also takes up less screen space, reducing bunching in narrow browser windows. --JN46614:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is rather ridiculous there is no consistency between instructions and the tag. Everyone naturally uses 'talk', as demonstrated by the instructions they have written.Sandpiper (talk) 23:51, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I find 'discussion' to be a much more professional and accurate name, but I certainly concede that in common speak we most often use 'talk' anyways. 'Discussion' simply seems friendlier to new users, and I would certainly support assimilating it into regular use. Alas, cheers! Arbitrarily0(talk)03:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
SupportTalk is more intuitive, given the existing convention of using it in templates, namespaces, guidelines, and in conversation. As an added bonus, talk is both a noun and a verb—click talk to “talk” on the talk page. To those who oppose because talk seems less "dignified" or "professional": read Protonk's comment. Braincricket (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom, that it's shorter, and also because they do it on the Simple English Wikipedia and it works just fine without confusion or loss of professionalism. Selery (talk) 07:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support 'Talk'. Clearer, matches current usage, and removes the erroneous implication that talk pages are for discussing the subject of the article (rather than the article itself). Modest Geniustalk13:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Talk - this is their more common name anyway and easier for people to understand if their English is not native. This should be an easy simplification, though we might need a bot to make it happen. ϢereSpielChequers14:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Coordinated SOPA reaction in early 2012 RfC
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
It was announced on December 16, 2011 that a floor vote on SOPA is delayed, likely until early 2012. While the threat of this legislation still looms, the brief reprieve gives our community time to reach a meaningful consensus about whether to take action, and what action to take.
Background information
The Stop Online Piracy Act ("SOPA", H.R.3261) is a piece of proposed federal legislation in the United States. The bill would expand the ability of law enforcement and copyright holders to fight online trafficking in copyrighted intellectual property and counterfeit goods. It has seen widespread opposition from all corners of the Internet, and poses a unique threat to Wikipedia's continued operation.
Two proposals for a response from the Wikipedia community have been advanced so far (first proposal, second proposal), but neither was conducted with enough lead-time to reach a meaningful consensus.
Proposal
Here is a proposal that we believe strikes a reasonable compromise, chosen as a moderate sampling of the ideas posted on Wikipedia:SOPA initiative:
Triggering event: When SOPA has passed committee and is scheduled for a floor vote in either the House or Senate. The banner runs for the week before the vote, and switches to the blackout on the day before.
Scope: Response is geotargeted to United States IP addresses only
Duration: Maximum of 7 days for banner component, maximum of 24 hours for blackout component. Blackout is triggered on the business day before the vote. If the vote is on a Monday, blackout runs for 24 hours starting Friday.
Action (banner): Banners encourage people to contact their Senators and Representatives (priority given to whichever is urgent, House or Senate).
To the maximum extent possible, readers are given instant information on how they can take action. Campaign is designed to mobilize the public maximally.
The focus is on generating high-value congressional contacts (phone calls and in-person contacts vs letters or emails)
A VOIP-based callback system (such as the one used recently by tumblr) is an option if we can find one that fits our needs and allows us to remain acceptably independent.
Banners operate like the fundraising banners (served via CentralNotice, can be closed per-user, etc).
Action (blackout): All requests are answered with a black page. The page is semi-protected Wikitext. Once the page is displayed, a cookie is set which prevents its display again. Exact wording to be decided, but it hits the following points:
SOPA puts Wikipedia, and the rest of the free Internet, at risk
You can help by contacting your representative and senators (with maximally easy help with ways to do that)
A "Learn more about SOPA" link which points to the relevant article on the English Wikipedia
A "Why am I seeing this" link which points to a page detailing the process for reaching this consensus
A link to click through to the originally requested page
"You will only see this page once"
This gets the message across clearly, explains how to help, is targeted to people who have the ability to effect change, shows that the protest was a community decision, and doesn't reduce the utility of Wikipedia for readers.
To set this proposal in the context of similar actions in the past, see this summary.
Need
While most of us understand the power that Wikipedia has in this situation and the size of our audience, some are still skeptical that a citizen response can change the course of this legislation. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, member of the House Judiciary Committee addressed this concern on Reddit:
My best assessment is that most members of the House who do not serve on the Judiciary Committee have not yet focused on SOPA. People should realize that incredible power they have to impact the thinking of their own Representative on the subject. For example, a very intelligent colleague who is not on the Committee approached me today asking about the bill. Why? He had received an urgent and forthright telephone call from a small business person in his district who is tremendously opposed. He wanted to know more about our Open Act Alternative. This is the power that each of you have with your own Representative. --Rep. Zoe Lofgren
I have replaced the original oppose statement, by the proponent, as it omitted a number of points made by opposers. Accordingly, while nominally having both sides presented, it actually failed to do so.
No one has shown that SOPA is a threat to Wikipedia. That is, events after its passage would cause the site to shut down or significantly impair its functioning. When pressed, Geoff Bingham, corporate counsel to WMF (that is, they are the client, to whom his duty runs, not us) said that we might be deemed an internet search engine This seems to contradict the plain meaning of the statute, which refers to internet search engine returning a list of sites elsewhere on the internet in return to a user query. We do not send people elsewhere on the internet. For the position Geoff expresses to prevail (he qualifies his position by many a “could” and “might”), the language in the statute would have to be considered meaningless--and by the rules of statutory construction, courts dislike concluding that Congress inserted language, and meant nothing by it. All that is perfectly proper; it is routine for those arguing that a statute is wrong to present what is called in the law the “parade of horribles”. Suffice it to say that for most statutes, the parade of horribles presented by opponents resembles your favorite post-nuclear scenario.
Let’s say I’m wrong and SOPA is applicable to Wikipedia. What does that mean? Well, it means if a rights holder sued a foreign infringing site (that is, a site that neither has an office nor a designated person who can be served with legal process in the US, who commits various infringing acts), and won the Federal Court lawsuit, we might be asked to take down links to that site. In most cases, these are torrent farms which give the latest episode of HBO’s hits or new movies. Few are reliable sites. In practice, what I suspect is that the site would be placed on the spam blacklist at meta and people would search to ensure we weren’t relying on the content. Unlikely, that.
If we sourced to such a site, we would find another site for the citation. I find it very unlikely, despite the parade of horribles presented by advocates, that we would lose any content. There is no reliable source from some obscure African nation which “just happens” to be a foreign infringing site.
Absent the existential threat to Wikipedia, which many have claimed but none survived the cold light of day, we should not do this thing. Keep in mind that having the 5th-most trafficked website in the world advocate for a cause is a tempting platform, and many have already flooded in to make the decision for us. Keep in mind that this is something we can do at most once with any conviction (we may already have shot our bolt with the coverage of Jimbo’s call). The second time, even for a real threat, it’s just “There goes Wikipedia again.” (and soon “There goes Wikipedia”) To say that this will end the Internet as we know it, as some supporters have, is dramatic, and not supported by the facts. However, it may be a step towards making Wikipedia less-well-regarded. Editors should feel free to advocate in the manner they deem best as individuals. However, a strike is a bad idea.
Let’s keep in mind that SOPA is widely supported because there is a very real problem with anything copyrighted showing up on the internet, free, and being downloaded. Many of these sites are offshore, and rightsholders cannot effectively get in touch with them to get the content taken down. They are, at best, playing whack-a-mole. That is a problem that is going to be addressed legislatively in some way.
But let’s say we went ahead and did this crazy thing. What then? Will people searching for information go and drop everything and call their congressman. No. They will say a word the civility hawks around here wouldn’t like, and go on to find the information, either from a mirror site or elsewhere. And they will remember they don’t need Wikipedia to find information. In an earlier post, I recalled James Hogan’s science fiction novel, The Two Faces of Tomorrow. In it, a self-aware computer was tested by having its power shut off. Eventually, it managed to wire around the switch. So will our public, and as a political player we will be trusted less.
Rebuttal to opposition
Because in 2009 I wrote strategy:Proposal:Wikipedia is a Web search engine, I disagree with Wehwalt. Any serious educational or academic user does not cite Wikipedia directly, but only its sources; thus, to us, Wikipedia is a resource that delivers HTML links to references in response to a search term. WMF lawyers might dispute this, perhaps even win, because the law doesn't always make sense, but let's not kid ourselves - how often is a law interpreted more narrowly than what it looks like?
A court order does not simply mean that we "are asked to take down links to the site"; it means that there must be consequences of some sort for failing to do so. Wikipedia was unable to prevent postings of the AACS key when that controversy was current, despite some admins believing them to be illegal and taking action to block them. They turned up all over the place, in articles, discussions, as screenshots of T-shirt sites, in RGB color values for a "free speech flag" (see article) - it was simply impracticable. So we're not being set up to experience some "minor" act of distasteful censorship, but rather, for the legal sanctions of failure. And there's no way to stop that in an encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
Response to Geoff
(added post, response to Geoff) I’d first like to apologize to the community for a number of grammar and style errors in my above post. I would have changed them, but with a reply on table, that doesn’t seem appropriate.
I’m grateful to Geoff for responding, as his time here has value, unlike mine. He also is putting his name and reputation on the line, I’m just posting (or being a troll, in some eyes). As a lawyer who has concentrated in certain areas (not intellectual property!) I know that the hardest person to persuade is the lawyer from another field who drops in, makes elementary mistakes, and just doesn’t get “the big picture”. If that suits me, I apologize for it. However, I don’t think I would pound the drum like this without having some reason.
A poster below disparages Geoff’s reply on the ground he has ignored technical definitions of the word “indexed” with respect to search engines, which operate to exclude Wikipedia. If Geoff has more to say on this (I will understand if he does not, his time is valuable and taken up with matters which would benefit the project), I’d be grateful for a response. If “indexed” is clearly defined or understood to have a meaning, which excludes Wikipedia, let’s wrap this up and get back to wrapping presents for Jimbo.
At the present time, if I read Geoff’s response correctly, we are called upon to take action. And why? Out of fear of sloppy legislative drafting. I grant his point that it is possible to make an argument that we are a search engine, that we do provide external links in many articles, and so some well-paid and articulate attorney can make a case that we are a search engine. The lawyer might not actually believe it (the practice of law involves advocating for clients, although a lawyer’s personal views might differ) but the case could be made.
But come on, is the search engine argument a winning one? Really? Not just one that is plausible, one that can win, or at least have a solid chance thereof, in court? That Wikipedia is a search engine? Really?
I think the difficulty with Geoff’s post, leaving aside the question of “indexed” which may dispose of the whole thing, is in his argument that we may fit the part of the definition of search engine in that it may be claimed that our primary purpose is “gathering and reporting, in response to a user query, indexed information or Web sites available elsewhere on the Internet.”
This seems dubious. Many of our articles, especially at the higher grades, have few online sources, working from scholarly books and other print reliable sources. My latest project, Cross of Gold speech has nearly no online references, but is almost entirely sourced to well-regarded books on the Gilded Age. We give the reader information, not distinguishing between offline and online information. Yes, we do contain information available elsewhere (i.e., off Wiki) on the internet, but really, is a judge going to rule that it is our one and only “primary purpose”? That this is the raison d'être of Wikipedia, the reason it has become the 5th most trafficked website in the world? Because we are (arguably) an external search engine? I would respectfully suggest that this is unlikely to be a winning argument, not in a court of law. Really, do you think any judge is going to rule that Wikipedia’s single primary purpose is being a search engine for sites outside our domain? I’ve seen judges do many ill-advised things in my time, so I never say never. However, if we are to live in fear of what seems an unnatural interpretation of the statute--we might as well hide in the basement until they come for us.
I do not say Geoff is wrong in calling SOPA a threat. Indeed, I am certain that we are in agreement on much of this. I recall a saying that everyone’s in danger when the legislature’s in session. But there doesn’t seem to be much here. Yes, SOPA bears watching, unexpected things can come out of manager’s amendments and conference committees. But right now the threat is not existential. It’s at best--or, if you prefer, at worst--foggy.
I want to thank Wehwalt for his thoughtful essay. As I noted in my blog, I think the biggest flaw in SOPA for Wikimedia is the loose definition of "internet search engine." Because this has been discussed above and elsewhere, let me explain in a little more detail why, in my opinion, rights owners will argue that that statutory definition covers us.
Under the new SOPA version (before the markup), the full definition of "internet search engine" (Sec. 101(15)) read as follows:
"The term 'Internet search engine'--
(A) means a service made available via the Internet whose primary function is gathering and reporting, in response to a user query, indexed information or Web sites available elsewhere on the Internet; and
(B) does not include a service that retains a third party that is subject to service of process in the United States to gather, index, or report information available elsewhere on the Internet."
Section (A) arguably applies to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is:
(1) "a service made available via the Internet" [There should be no dispute here.]
(2) "whose primary function is gathering and reporting ... indexed information ... available elsewhere on the Internet"[1] [Rights owners may argue that the primary function on Wikipedia is gathering and reporting information in articles (which constitute "indexed information") that are primarily sourced through information available elsewhere on the Internet as evidenced by our reference links at the bottom of our articles.]
(3) "in response to a user query" [Users employ our own search function, i.e., user query, to find Wikipedia articles (or "indexed information")]
(Section (B) does not appear applicable to Wikipedia.)
This above parsing of the legislative language demonstrates at least the sloppiness in the legislative drafting, and, given the ambiguities such drafting give rise to, we can expect adverse rights owners to seek to take advantage. If legislators wished to exclude Wikipedia-type sites, they could have done so using more specific language. They have not, and that worries me. Geoffbrigham (talk) 00:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
^It is unclear whether the phrase "available elsewhere on the Internet" modifies the phrase "indexed information" as opposed to modifying only "Web sites." I am assuming it modifies both phrases, though there is arguable ambiguity on this point.
In response to some of the arguments (most of which I find quite fair in their presentation), allow me to quickly say the following (before I hop on a plane):
(1) The primary reason to oppose SOPA is its effect on the Internet and the precedent it creates for further censorship once the government gets comfortable with pulling down entire sites. That is, our focus should not necessarily be on only the definition of "internet search engine." Our site relies on other sites to provide us sources, so, in my opinion, an attack on those sites is indirectly an attack on us.
(2) As I said in my blog, one of the most serious issues with SOPA (Section 103) appears to be addressed from a Wikipedia viewpoint with the amendment introduced before the mark-up. The chances are now slim that any rights owner would argue we are an "Internet site dedicated to theft of U.S. property" under that provision.
(3) I understand conflicting views on the interpretation of "internet search engine," and, believe me, I will argue vigorously that the definition does not apply to us if we are challenged in court. That said, I don't always trust prosecutors and judges - who sometimes look for ways to put round pegs into square holes without much technical expertise - to interpret the poorly-drafted definition of "internet search engine," especially when such proceedings are at the urging of well-financed and motivated rights owners. In the end, we might be required to incur significant costs in courts to defend our position if the government does not exercise proper discretion. A clean definition would prevent that. In short, I'm concerned about the power and money of rights owners and how they may improperly affect government policy in this regard.
Again many thanks to all for their different opinions. I have tried to be balanced in my presentations and blog because I believe the community needs to understand the impact of SOPA without hyperbole, but obviously I welcome thoughtful disagreement which helps provide additional perspective. Happy holidays to all. Geoffbrigham (talk) 19:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Personal statements from proposal authors
Ian Baker: While I work for WMF as a developer, this proposal is made by myself as an individual. I am aware that the Foundation officially opposes SOPA, but am in no way representing the Foundation when I write this. I care about Wikipedia deeply, and am therefore very concerned about this bill's imminent passage. raindrift (talk) 00:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo Wales: I have sought to assist Ian in trying to make this proposal mild and widely acceptable. We do not have a lot of time for debate, as markup is set to begin again on December 21st and this could still make it to the floor of the House quite quickly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Isupport this proposal, but I believe that a full-scale, international blackout (à la the Italian Wikipedia) would be more effective. SOPA stands to affect readers around the world (not merely those in the United States). During the Italian Wikipedia's strike, users in various countries contacted ambassadors of Italy to express their concerns. It would be helpful if the same were to occur with ambassadors of the United States. I also worry that a one-off message (with the ability to click through to the desired article) would be treated as little more than a nag screen (dismissed and forgotten). As upsetting as it is to deprive readers of the encyclopedia, that might be the only way to get their attention and prompt them to take action. —David Levy00:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Purely technical issues/concerns Some readers may not have cookies enabled. Session id? Could this cause accessibility problems for some users? fredgandt00:53, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could be done with both a cookie and a session id. Session id would ensure it only comes up once per visit where cookies are disabled. Cookie could ensure it only comes up once at all. So someone with cookies disabled will see it everytime they close their browser and then come back to Wikipedia but not on every article.--v/r - TP16:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Against First, quite likely several US presidential candidates (to candidates) have different views on this subject. Which candidate(s) will WP support? Second, I do not know anything about SOPA in particular, but I strongly believe that defending intellectual property is extremely important (unless we want to descend into a dark age of search and copy, as creating does not pay for your food and bed) This is highly ridiculous, this is - I thought - a encyclopaedia, not a political platform. - Nabla (talk) 00:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You acknowledge that you "do not know anything about SOPA in particular". If you were familiar with the bill, perhaps you'd understand why opposing it isn't remotely the same as opposing the defense of intellectual property (just as opposing the USA PATRIOT Act isn't tantamount to supporting terrorism). Indeed, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia — one based on specific principles. If a politician happens to disagree with said principles, that can't be avoided. —David Levy01:20, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I take the criticism - of not knowing - as fair and took a look at our article. Actually I have already seen it sometime. Overall it looks fine. Sites facilitating copyright infringement should be stopped. It supports my guess that this is "the internet at large" being against copyright. That includes WP. WP - as a community, not every member - show little respect for copyright. I once uploaded a few photos, the copyright tags I placed on them were changed several times by some random users a couple times or so. WP also leaves up to community discussion several legal matters (like fair use for images) while we are no court at all. WP has no moral authority at all to protest. Joking a little, this is like a bank robber opposing a law against robbing banks. But all that is my opinion about copyright and its (poor) implementation at WP, subject for a nice calm, or heated, internal discussion. This discussion here is about WP direct and intentional interference in USA politics. First, that is completely against WP purpose, as I see it; Second, the WMF may natuirally do turn WP into a political platform, as they may, and probably have the right to. Me, I am against. - Nabla (talk) 02:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bias?!, prejudice, lack of objectivity? Where do your opinions come from? Out of thin air? Because someone told you? You born with them implanted in your brain? They come out of your pure and kind heart? Or are they born out of your life experiences, just like mine? Your life experiences are good reasons, mine are «bias»? Campaign as much as you want, but cut the crap, do'n play all saintly, and do not insult others's opinions. - Nabla (talk) 02:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I neither insulted your bias nor claimed that I possess none of my own. I merely stated that I was unaware of yours. Had I realized that you believe that opposition to SOPA stems from "being against copyright" (a position fundamentally incompatible with supporting this proposal), I wouldn't have pressed the issue. —David Levy04:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Is this not what could be fairly called "a perennial proposal"? It has been knocked back twice already. How many more times do we have to go through this? I emailed Jimbo stating my concerns regarding the hypocrisy of this proposal. It went something like this: For Wikipedia to state loudly that it is against proposed laws that are (from most peoples perspectives) designed to protect copyrights, will be a media nightmare. Who honestly thinks the media at large will stand shoulder to shoulder with us, and sing our praises for doing the right thing? They sell dung; and the stinkier the better. This is delivering it to them in truck loads. Wave buh-bye to our reputation folks! fredgandt01:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, you're referring to two very different proposals, both of which failed for reasons irrelevant to this one. The original RfC (which focused on the general idea instead of specific implementations highly unlike the one proposed above) generated broad support. Secondly, you seem to suggest that we should worry more about PR than about defending principles that enable Wikipedia's existence. Obviously, I disagree. —David Levy01:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Irrelevant'? Excuse me for looking bemused O.o. PR matters. If the aim of this proposed fiasco is to protect Wikipedia, consider the harm it might do. This is surgery with a rusty spoon. There are better ways. fredgandt01:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1. Yes, irrelevant. Those proposals failed because they entailed rushing into implementations substantially different from the one proposed above. The general idea received broad support. 2. I didn't say that PR doesn't matter. However, it will cease to matter if Wikipedia fades into history. Also note that the Italian Wikipedia engaged in a significantly more extreme variant of this protest with positive results. You say that "there are better ways." What do you suggest? —David Levy02:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not responding to the end of the world posturing. I suggested to Jimbo by email that he use his own clout to raise awareness without dragging Wikipedia through the shit in the process. How ever many readers Wikipedia has each day, it will be nothing compared with the numbers that read the papers and watch the telly. He, without the backing of WMF could easily get any audience he chose, and no one could deny him the right to claim the limelight as creator of Wikipedia (although many try). This is now for certain my last comment on this thread (my last was but I was asked a direct question). Not being dramatic, just said my bit and moving on. fredgandt03:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe (and I don't think that Jimbo believes) that he commands such power and influence. He's well known, of course, and he is doing his best to raise awareness of the issue. —David Levy03:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support but go further. Blackout all articles about movies made by MPAA members, with no possibility of viewing the article for the 24 hours. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:38, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah and then permanently blackout all pages to do with Nazis and terrorists and child abusers and rapists and cheese and frogs... fredgandt01:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support: action could well go further into economic restraints on the utility of Wikipedia to the supporters and groups lobbying in favour of this bill. As an immediate proposal this is worth supporting and putting in place. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For the third time, support, though I'm concerned the proposal is not bold enough. A full, almost immediate, complete blackout is in order if we are to generate serious and significant media attention, which is basically the only thing politicians care about. But then that's only my view. I support WMF action against SOPA, though only if not associated with political organizations (e.g. those also associated with other causes than SOPA). CharlieEchoTango (contact) 07:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as Wikipedia is concerned with free access to the web. Thus it's a part of Wikipedia's mission to react on such events. The political bias issues are irrelevant here, as no politics concerned. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:25, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose - By carrying out these actions Wikipedia will sacrifice its perceived neutrality and the protecttion that it gives. Lose that neutrality and it will be much easier for companies (or people with an agenda) to take legal action as the FIRST step without the bad PR that would create now.Even worse are some of the suggestions above that want to censor Wikipedia - I mean "Blackout all articles about movies made by MPAA members, with no possibility of viewing the article for the 24 hours" and "action could well go further into economic restraints on the utility of Wikipedia to the supporters and groups lobbying in favour of this bill Then goodbye Wikipedia. That is just asking for Wikipedia to be sued or shut downNigel Ish (talk) 11:26, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As I wrote previously, it is inappropriate for the community to compel any user to edit or not edit to make a political point. It would also set a truly awful precedent, with unknowable consequences. If some threshold of consensus is all it takes to turn Wikipedia into an instrument of politics, then Bill O'Reilly can take over the encyclopedia if 1% of his three million nightly viewers respond to a call to register accounts. Even if nothing like that happened, Wikipedia would be permanently politicized. Every time a controversial piece of media legislation got introduced, it would be "How will Wikipedia respond?" all over the news. Nigel Ish also highlights some upsetting avenues this could open toward liability. And as Nabla says, how far does this go? If it becomes an issue in the U.S. presidential campaign, which candidate do we endorse? Lagrange61317:50, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - Having read the bill and numerous informed analyses of it, I believe that SOPA threatens the very existence of Wikipedia. This requires decisive action, and requires it urgently. It makes little sense for Wikipedia to refrain from action in order to uphold our apolitical ideals when so doing may well result in the elimination of the site itself. This is an extremely poorly-conceived and constructed piece of legislation, and it demands an unequivocal response. This is not a slippery slope. The Wikipedia community has historically shown great restraint against taking indiscriminate political action, and will continue to do so in the future, regardless of what decision is made here. The is no equivalency between an awareness-raising action regarding a bill that would necessitate universal censorship of Wikipedia and, say, the endorsement of a political candidate. To propose such is an insult to the intelligence and discretion of this community.
Of the three SOPA-related action proposals thus far put forth, this is by far the best-articulated, and most immediately practicable one. It is respectful of the community, addresses all major the previously-raised objections, and is compatible with NPOV. It also—and I consider this crucial—includes a strong emphasis on creating high-value action on the part of the Wikipedia community and readership. The Tumblr auto-calling system mentioned in the proposal was a massive success, without which SOPA might have sailed through without the scrutiny that it is now receiving, and which it so needed. Without the tumblr action, our community might not even have the opportunity that we now have to draw further attention to this deeply-flawed legislation.AaronMuszalski (talk) 19:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC) — AaronMuszalski (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
The Wikimedia Foundation's general counsel has advised the community that SOPA does pose dangers to Wikipedia. While the latest version exempts American organizations from some sanctions (such as cutting off payment processing), the WMF could still be subject to court orders to review every outgoing link from Wikipedia and to block certain domains. I find it hard to imagine a more direct attack on the freedom of the Wikipedia community. Do you have another legal opinion to cite? NeilK (talk) 02:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Counsel conditioned his opinion with many a “might” and “could”. I see no definite statement of opinion on what, in fact, SOPA would do to Wikipedia. What he is doing is the “parade of horribles”: That is, if you pass an ordinance banning playing the radio on the subway, you have repealed the First Amendment and you are now living in New Pyongyang. I’m a lawyer myself, I know when a lawyer is advocating for a client’s position. That’s what he’s doing. Perfectly proper, and perhaps not entitled to the weight and authority you’re giving it. Always look to the qualifiers in a legal opinion. Any lawyer can hand you dramatic language. It looks impressive in print, but when run through legal analysis, not much is left.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I support this because while not being consistent with NPV, SOPA endangers the very idea of open internet sites like wikipedia Cat Cubed (talk) 20:26, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I'm not fully understanding arguments against this action due to Wikipedia's perceived neutrality - Wikipedia is indeed not neutral in this situation and needn't behave as such. With lawmakers making comments such as "this worked in China" we, of all those on the web, should certainly be supporting any action that could help prevent this bill from going through in its current state. This is an effective option; take advantage of the opportunity to make an impact. LoriLee (talk) 21:37, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support – I've previously opposed taking site-wide action since I had believed that Jimbo's voice in the media alone would be enough. Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be the case any longer. As a result of witnessing the rejection of so many amendments on December 16th, I believe that a stronger message from the WMF and the enwiki community is needed in order to spread awareness of this bill. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - SOPA poses a direct threat to what Wikipedia stands for. As Vint Cerf wrote in a letter to Lamar Smith, SOPA opens the door to "unprecedented censorship" of the web. When statements like this - including an appeal from 83 of the internet's founders about the dangers of SOPA - fall on deaf ears within Congress, it's time to act. Wikipedia has the power to reach thousands of people, and that kind of power should not be taken lightly or used carelessly. The situation is dire, but there may be hope if Wikipedia contributes to the awareness effort. As representative Zoe Lofgren pointed out, people have a tremendous power to influence legislation, as illustrated by the story of one of her colleagues rethinking his position on SOPA after a phone call from a small business owner in his district. If more representatives hear from their constituents about how counterproductive and dangerous this bill is, maybe the tide will turn. This is a crucial moment in the Internet's history, and I think that Wikipedia should take a stand, because SOPA undermines every value that this community is built on. The neutrality that people are so protective of in this discussion can only thrive in an open internet. The sum of all human knowledge will not thrive in the balkanized internet that will result from SOPA being passed.Nadya lev (talk) 22:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
Oppose as POV and a distraction by "movement groupies" over content creators. We should not restrict content to make a political point (to support or oppose a law). Similar to not censoring. This is censoring the entire site. I'm also concerned that this seems to appeal to people that would rather found a movement than write content. Wales and Gardner should worry about content problems we have (10 years into this thing). This is a distraction. It takes us further down the road of losing the best writers and retaining people that want to use the blank slate as part of some meta-battle. (And if you don't like it or think I'm not AGFing or shouldn't impute motives, tough titties. I would look anyone on this site in the eye and say what I beleive.)TCO (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you're calling Jimbo a movement groupie, I'm not sure who you would consider a "real" Wikipedian. Jimbo continues to contribute to articles to this day. Furthermore you are proposing a false dichotomy, that we can only care about content quality or legal threats to the existence of Wikipedia. We can do both. NeilK (talk) 02:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not to besmirch the work Jimmy Wales does on behalf of the project, which I do very much appreciate, but I really must chime in here. The link you provide purporting to show that Mr. Wales "contribute(s) to articles to this day" shows no such thing. Oh, he changed a URL on one piece in mid-November, etc. But he basically engages in Talk pages, Noticeboard pages, and other matters relating to the apparatus, not the content. Once in a while there is a contentious BLP that brings editorial action, but that's ultimately a function of project maintenance and defense rather than content creation. That's neither here nor there, there are many people who do these things — some productively, some not. But it is a misrepresentation to contend otherwise. Carrite (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for a weak proposal. Every media report will make reference to the fact that we considered a blackout but bottled it. --FormerIP (talk) 22:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'd actually prefer a stronger action more like what the Italian Wikipedia did, but I can get behind this proposal. NeilK (talk) 02:58, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I have a couple of questions. I can understand those who think this kind of protest is inappropriate, and would prefer something different. What I don't get are those who object to taking any sort of action. According to the WMF's general counsel, this is a serious threat to Wikipedia's independence (and if you disagree, please show us a different legal opinion). So are you arguing that it's more important to avoid any hint of POV -- even about issues of state censorship? Personally, when I look back on this episode in 10 years, I'm not sure I am going to feel good about concluding "well, we may have let Wikipedia become a collaborator with government and industry to keep people ignorant about certain things. But I'm glad that at least we never pushed any POV on our users with a banner ad or anything...." NeilK (talk) 03:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's important to avoid any hint of POV even about issues of fill in the blank. Otherwise it will be "Wikipedia condemns anti-copyvio measures but not child pornographyorAIDS denialism or overzealous gun control or spending time on copyright on the Internet instead of unemployment" or whatever bête noire you choose. We can't pick favorites with political causes, or do-gooders will be knocking down our door asking us to pick them. I reject collaboration with either side of this debate. We're an encyclopedia, so informing readers is part of our mission; we just can't inject the political views of the majority* of editors into that process. (*Really the majority of the minority that participates at this board.) By all means draw attention to the debate around SOPA, but do it within the bounds we set for ourselves: work the article up to FA and make it TFA around some appropriate moment, like one house or the other voting on it. Lagrange61306:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia, by its very existence, aligns itself with a POV contrary to SOPA's intent. You might as well argue that our "pro-free content" POV is inappropriate. —David Levy06:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"SOPA would not outlaw free content". Sure, but it'd give anyone a weapon to cause untold quantities of harm regardless. Someone with powerful lawyers gets pissy about the fact that we legitimately use their non-free logo under fair use, or perhaps that we disagree with them on Bridgeman v. Corel, the lawyers start making a ruckus and then god knows what happens. Or think of the child porn stuff a few years ago: it would have only taken one or two rogue prosecutors to go after Wikipedia: this is what you get when you detach intellectual property enforcement from due process. Wikipedians try very hard to keep the site free of copyvios and we still fail, and will continue to fail. SOPA is a gun pointed at our head and the trigger could go off at any minute. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My point was only that Wikipedia does not "align itself with a POV contrary to SOPA's intent." Tom Morris correctly identifies the stakes here as risk to the project, not some deep contradiction with Our Precious Values. And taking a public political stance like this is very risky indeed, for reasons opponents continue to spell out. Lagrange61315:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1. Wikipedia aligns itself with the POV that the online dissemination of free information should be unencumbered. SOPA threatens to make it too onerous for Wikipedia, let alone downstream users, to handle. 2. Has the Italian Wikipedia's protest — a significantly more extreme variant — resulted in adverse political consequences for Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation? —David Levy16:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I don't see Wikipedia aligning itself with any POV, because I don't see myself as part of a political movement. I understand that some people feel that way, but I don't think it's appropriate for them to impose their vision on the rest of the editing (and reading) community. I guess that makes me one of TCO's "content writers", though we're mostly a soft-spoken lot. I don't know much about the Italian Wikipedia's protest, but I do think it's a little early to evaluate all of its effects. In any case the English Wikipedia is so much more visible that I doubt the value of the comparison. Lagrange61322:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is part of the free culture movement. When politicians threaten to harm said movement via onerous legislation, the lines between "social movement" and "political movement" are blurred. The Italian Wikipedia is the fifth-largest. Its protest (which was worldwide, blocked article access with no option of clicking through, and had no predetermined duration) generated massive media coverage in Italy (the country considering the problematic legislation) and a substantial amount internationally. I've seen no evidence that the Italian Wikipedia's reputation (or that of the Wikimedia Foundation, which endorsed the protest) has been damaged. Many Wikimedians (myself included) initially expressed concerns similar to those discussed here, but the general public found fault with Italian parliament (and reacted accordingly). That protest's success inspired this proposal. —David Levy00:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is emphatically not part of any movement, social or political. It is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit regardless of membership in any movement, social or political. Individual contributors may feel they belong to a movement and that editing Wikipedia is part of their participation in that movement. Which is fine as long as they don't use Wikipedia as a soapbox. Lagrange61301:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"The Wikimedia Foundation believes that all people everywhere should be afforded equal access to information. It supports network neutrality and the free culture movement." (Source: WMF Answers page) "Your donation makes you a key supporter of the free culture movement..." (Source: Jimbo Wales) No one asserts that Wikipedia is a soapbox or that we ordinarily engage in the type of activity proposed. But let's not pretend that the Wikimedia Foundation and its projects are uninvolved in the free culture movement and advocacy related thereto. —David Levy04:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikimedia Foundation has a fiduciary duty to advocate for all its constituent projects. It's decided that identifying itself with the free culture movement is a good way to do that. Wikipedia is not bound by this decision to adopt a political POV; on the contrary, the Foundation does it so we don't have to. Lagrange61314:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't asserted that we "have to" engage in the proposed protest. I've explained why I believe it to be an advisable course of action. It is, of course, entirely reasonable to disagree. But one of the arguments against the protest is that it would be non-neutral. My point is that Wikipedia, as a project of the Wikimedia Foundation, already aligns itself with the free culture movement and the POV that the dissemination of free information should be unencumbered. Do we normally interrupt page loads to announce this? No, of course not. That would be a significant departure from our standard procedure. Does that make it a departure from the principles on which the project is based? No, it doesn't. We seek to build an NPOV encyclopedia, but from an organizational standpoint, we've never been neutral on this subject. —David Levy20:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"SOPA would not outlaw free content"? The proposal keeps changing, but some versions would not outlaw free content, but would change who decides if complaints are valid from a court, which is obliged to be fair and neutral, to the ISP of the person or organization who puts up the disputed content. Of course, the primary interest of the ISP is minimising the amount of staff time devoted to content issues, and the quickest way to resolve issues is to cancel the account of the accused subscriber. So some incarnations of SOPA don't outlaw free content, but do deny due process of law to possibly free content. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, are you saying that there's nothing wrong with this action, but that it will lead inevitably to Wikipedians being dragged into other issues? I think there's no risk of that. First of all, SOPA is very clearly targeted at sites like us. Its entire intent is to affect internet entities where content is contributed by users, which were formerly shielded by the DMCA. We are not becoming exercised over this bill by accident. I think the Wikipedia community is smart enough to figure out when we must speak out and when we should be silent. If not, we can get legal advice from the WMF or others, and we can do what we're doing now -- talk it out. There's no slippery slope here. Nothing about this action commits us to other, future, unrelated actions. NeilK (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm less worried about getting dragged into future issues (though that is a concern) than I am about changes to our image. At the moment people read us as an encyclopedia, and this will lead to people reading us as an encyclopedia that crusades for one political POV at the expense of another. If we're pigeonholed like that it may be harder to attract new users, which is becoming more and more urgent. Lagrange61322:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for action. I'm flexible on which proposal. Just like the DMCA, this law operates based on allegations. It operates in the absence of an actual court determination of infringement. The law requires Wikipedia to censor targeted sites, even when any allegation of infringement is clearly false. Even if a site actually contains nothing but Public Domain material. Even more significantly, I think it's wrong to say that Wikipedia itself actually is safe from being taken down or de-funded under this law. Wikipedia's supposed safety is conditional upon Wikipedia being confined within US borders. Imagine for a moment a law which explicitly prohibited Wikipedia from ever moving outside the US, prohibited us from ever utilizing any systems outside the US. Is there anyone here who would tolerate any such thing? It is impossible for anyone to assert or accept that Wikipedia actually is safe from the most catastrophic portions of this law, not unless you first imply and accept the radical position of forever prohibiting Wikipedia from moving or using any system outside the US. Alsee (talk) 06:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The difficulty of knowing where to draw the line does not mean that we shouldn't draw the line. If you want a clear test, here's one: if a law forbids content that the community has come to a consensus on as being valuable to include in Wikipedia, we should oppose that law. Seems like a no-brainer to me. And I know that includes a lot of things like freedom of panorama or laws against Nazi imagery in Germany, and I'm not advocating that we protest those things as strenuously. But another issue is, when should we take action that interrupts the average reader's experience on the encyclopedia? I think that is a judgment call, and we'll have to talk it out every time, as we are doing now. The point is I don't think you can argue for no action merely by saying that it's hard to know when action is required. NeilK (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the Pirate Bay article has an external link to the site, so that's some content right there. And The Church of Scientology already abuses copyright to kick sites off the internet that are critical or provide neutral information about their organization; we can expect them to use this tool as well. But the thing is, while SOPA purports to target piracy, it really places website publishers at the beck and call of anyone who is willing to pay a lawyer. (Caution, I am not a lawyer, and that cite comes from October, but I believe it is still relevant.) In many cases, a judge does not decide what is an appropriate measure to take, the claimant does. The obligation to monitor content isn't theirs, it becomes ours. The risk to Wikipedia may be lower -- the current draft exempts US websites from some provisions, and few organizations would risk the blowback of kicking Wikipedia offline. But consider that we also largely rely on the rest of the Internet to verify all the significant claims in the encyclopedia. If it becomes difficult for non-US sites to be critical of the class of "anyone who can afford a lawyer" I don't see how Wikipedia can succeed. No site on the web is an island, and Wikipedia least of all. NeilK (talk) 21:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So the only content you can think of is the external link to The Pirate Bay? Seems like an easy thing to fix. Then you expand your rationale to suggest that Wikipedia has a duty to protect the rest of the Internet, placing us on an even slipperier slope. Lagrange61304:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are you asking me to enumerate every article before you take the threat seriously? I don't know what SOPA will look like in its final form, or when enforced, and neither do you. Something that leaves so much of the judgment to private companies is unlikely to err on the side of free speech. And the whole point of SOPA is that a site can be banned for the action of a single user, or a single page of content. But speaking of slippery slopes, exactly how much of Wikipedia's content are you willing to let the government ban, or rightsholders curtail? It's clear that you think we can lose a few articles about self-described "pirate" groups. But how about, say, the "Pirate Party", a significant force in European politics now? Where do you draw the line? NeilK (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We already have policies restricting content to protect us from liability, e.g. WP:BLP. We are well past that. I didn't say I was willing to lose articles, and I don't think that's at stake here. I'm not trying to justify SOPA (my opinions on it are irrelevant) but to express how unpersuasive I've found the doomsday predictions about the bill's prospective effect on Wikipedia. Lagrange61321:21, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Look back at the root of this thread (my Strong Support vote). I explained SOPA can take down anything, including a site hosting noting but public domain content. And either (1) you accept Wikipedia may someday be directly&catastrophically taken down under this law, or (2) you implicitly accept the law effectively prohibits Wikipedia from ever moving outside the US. Alsee (talk) 18:24, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support I am an European, but I believe that any similar law aimed directly against the freedoms of people merit similar response. Wikipedia is global project and as such it should defend itself on a global level no matter government of which country is attempting to propose change which could affect it. Petrb (talk) 09:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support When bad laws threaten the survival of Wikipedia, we must make a stand. The argument that it is a violation of WP:NPOV doesn't hold up because our very existence isn't a matter of neutrality. We prefer free content to non-free content, we prefer open source to closed, we prefer free access to closed access: the very parameters of the project aren't neutral, and rare, extraordinary action to protest dumb laws that threaten the survival of Wikipedia and the free Internet generally is a price we occasionally have to pay. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:22, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wikipedia needs to inform readers that free access to information is being placed in jeopardy. The comments above about Wikipedia's neutrality misunderstand the situation: the best advice currently available indicates that the bill presents a unique threat to Wikipedia's continued operation (see link in proposal). It would be irresponsible to fail to inform readers of that unique threat. Johnuniq (talk) 10:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral if it remains targetted at US IPs only, oppose if it's expanded to include non US IPs. Having read our lawyers response and some follow up comment, the actual extent of any threat to wikipedia seems to remain fairly unclear. Therefore, I remain opposed to any action involving non US IPs, particularly since the ability of non Americans to directly influence the bill is limited anyway. As also per my earlier comments, I'll let those from the US decide what they wish to do about it themselves. Nil Einne (talk) 20:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I preferred the tools-down global blackout (as several countries follow the US example and might try restrictive laws of their own, and action should be taken there too), but any action is good action. Sceptre(talk)02:55, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did Google pay us to shut down Wiki? Just wondering. Supposedly we are discouraging large individual grants (to not be beholden). But then we just got a half million from the founder of Google. And he has given us a LOT over the years too. And he has billions tied up in Youtube and Google and all. When we read the Wiki counsel's advice, we find out that Wiki itself is not under much danger. But Google has a lot of problems. And they are a ginormous, for profit, entity. So...just wondering on the timing of that last grant. Signal? TCO (talk) 03:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support with conditions. A more limited affected range at first, targeting only the IP ranges serving the U.S. Congress at first (although if we can exclude Senator Ron Wyden's office and Rep. Darrell Issa's (cosponsors of the more acceptable OPEN Act), we should. There is no sense in pissing off the entire US Internet population, even for a day, until and unless things get desperate.
Then we extend to IPs serving all organizations supporting SOPA (RIAA, MPAA, movie studios and record companies ... we can certainly determine these from the edit histories of the corresponding articles). And ideally we get Facebook, Twitter, Google and everything they own (i.e., YouTube) to do this as well.
We sustain this until the bill is killed and/or OPEN is passed instead, lifting blocks only for those people who have capitulated to our demands.
Support, begrudgingly. I think we should go further than this, much like the Italian Wikipedia did. But this is better than nothing. --Rschen775408:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose SOPA is terrible but it is not a threat to the existence of WP. That is where this differs from the Italian law earlier this year. I agree with many that it is the first step down a slippery slope which could lead to problems for WP, but remember that this action could also be the first down a slippery slope. I think that the Italian project's actions this year were probably justified, but this is the kind of response I worried about. How tangentially related to WP will legislation have to be for the users to weigh in? If the default is that we do weigh in, what's to stop us from blacking out every time some bill threatens the other interests of our community (and given the demographic homogeneity of editors, there is likely a fair bit of overlap)? For me the test must be a clear threat to the continuation of the project and this does not come anywhere close to meeting that standard. I hope you will all actually call your representatives and hand write a letter. From conversation with former congressional phone pit grunts, these are the most effective tools. -- InspectorTiger (talk) 13:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, if this is all we can get. I'd still like to see my stronger proposal (#2 at the Wikipedia:SOPA initiative page, but this is enough to get at least a good few people's attention. Wehwalt is a good editor (I know that for certain), and may be a good lawyer (no way for me to know), but Geoff is a known expert on this particular area of law. It's clearly an ill-considered bill that's totally discounted the opinions of technical experts, and has had a laughable run in Congress. More than once has been heard a variant of "Well I don't understand the technical issues, but...". NO, NO, NO. If you don't understand the technical issues, and people who do tell you repeatedly it's a Very Bad Idea, you stop and do not move until you understand why they say so. Given the clear lack of consideration given to this bill, it's certainly very possible it could have unintended ill effects on Wikipedia. Geoff's opinion is that it's likely to. Given the current abuse of the DMCA, and the fact that this can do far more damage, I see why he says so and tend to agree. I'd rather not let it pass to settle the argument, I'd rather take Geoff's opinion seriously and kill this thing. SeraphimbladeTalk to me15:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A minor gripe with your comment: Even if people don't fully understand the implications of the proposed legislation (because they don't fully understand the legal technicalities), they may still oppose using Wikipedia to promote a political point of view, without their view/opinion being any less potent. The issue up for discussion here is not if SOPA is bad, but if Wikipedia should say so. fredgandt16:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if I was unclear, as your comment was quite correct. I was referring to actual comments by the members of Congress who have been commenting on this legislation (to show that it's ill-considered and why it's so likely to be a blunder), not comments by Wikipedians. Sadly, it seems most of those discussing the bill here (on both sides) understand the technical issues better than the members of Congress debating it. SeraphimbladeTalk to me17:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I heard someone quip once, you can understand all of the problems in the US if you recognize that Congress are the teenagers we've hired to babysit the emotionally immature segment of our society. Unfortunately, we've given them the run of the house and spent way too long out at the movies; sooner or later we're going to have to go home and clean up the mess they've collectively made. --Ludwigs218:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While running an educational banner is a good idea, blacking out the site is a terrible concept for something that is not a life-and-death matter for WP. SOPA is no such thing, even if passed through both houses unchanged and signed by the President. Pressure should be happening NOW by WMF behind the scenes. Public Copycat-The-Italians gestures are both ineffectual and annoying. Carrite (talk) 17:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Oppose any direct opposition by Wikipedia. Wikipedia editors should all call and/or write individually. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of the Judiciary Committee has stated it is already having a positive effect and now with the postponing of the vote and the 25 amendments to it, it is obvious the bill is receiving alot of opposition. We are not listed as a Political Activist Group with the IRS. I believe we are in the group of charitable organizations such as 501(c)(3) status and so we should take care not to lose our status, and for another, Lets keep our eyes on the prize, i.e., defeating SOPA through individual calls and letters. Mugginsx (talk) 18:28, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATE Jimbo Wales has stated on his page this is not a problem so I would withdraw my objection on my above stated grounds and change my vote. Mugginsx (talk) 21:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I would support the above proposal IF the choice is either that or nothing. Why isn't there a centralized place to discuss all proposed action against SOPA?? There seem to be numerous different discussions regarding proposed action against SOPA (such as a "blackout", banner, etc) at various locations, including several here at the Village Pump, several at Wikipedia:SOPA initiative, and there are/have been several at User talk:Jimbo wales, among other locations (and there are likely many that I don't even know about). This makes it really confusing for people to find out where to discuss or to know where their voice will count. Can't we just have one clear location where discussion takes place??
I am really worried that we will end up doing nothing at all, not because we decided to, but for the sole reason that we discuss it until it is too late without ever reaching any kind of consensus either way and/or that the discussions are all over the place and about so many different proposals so there is no way to even determine whether there is consensus for/against a particular action.
This will probably get censored/deleted again (oh the irony), but what the hell, I love exposing hyprocites:
Pay the fuck attention kiddies, this little event that you're basically shitting your pants over...oh, hey, guess what, IT ALREADY HAPPENED! No, srsly, it ALREADY THE FUCK HAPPENED! Woah! TWICE in fact that I can recall off the top of my head just in the past 15 years!
I mean, hurr de durr, where were your stupid asses in NINETEEN NINETY SIX when Congress passed the CDA, the Communications Decency Act, which, by the way, was like 38 shades WORSE than this current bill you're all spastic and frothing over.
And make no mistake, Congress WILL pass it into law, they're getting a FIFTY SEVEN MILLION dollar bribe to do it, essentially. And they've no problems at all with that knowing that their "big brother" the Supreme Court will simply step in right afterwards and fix their epic fucking mess...they get to keep all that bribe money of course and the MPAA/RIAA will be out FIFTY MILLION dollars...win-win all around!
They do this all the time, it's practically their job description, there's actually been a whole slew of these idiot "laws" in the past 25 years, every single one deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court within a year of their passing through Congress, usually due to lawsuits from the ACLU and/or the EFF.
The last two major ones were the CDA, Communications Decency Act and the COPA, Children's Online Protection Act. This new bill is basically the exact same thing, just reworded slightly. Same old shit, different acronym.
Honestly, I can't believe I'm the ONLY one to point this out! I mean, hello, 1996! Blue Ribbon Campaign?! Surely I couldn't have been the ~only~ person online back in 1996! Tha'fawk...they sure are breeding you kids stupid these days.
Mmmm, should probably mention, in the event that a really fucked up law does come to pass, it usually takes the Supreme Court about a year or so to completely boot fuck it...BUT, when they're sued they usually file injunctions and shit that prevent them from actually putting the law into effect at all...so even though the law could effectively be completely passed...yeah, that doesn't mean they can actually act on it.
It is pretty hilarious though, first it was "decency", then it was "won't someone think of the children?" and now we've got "scary pirates" in the latest incarnation, but it's all the *SAME* fawking bill, just slightly reworded and with new acronyms, CDA... COPA... and now SOPA. I mean, what, do they think the Supreme Court isn't gonna notice it's the EXACT SAME BILL THEY ALREADY BOOT STOMPED?! *rolls eyes* It really is just for the money when you get right down to it.
That's the current version of my Anti-SOPA Idiocy rant...feel free to repost/edit/plagiarize at your discretion elsewhere, the important thing is just getting it circulated.
You're probably right, and yes, I did oppose the CDA in 1996. But the problem with relying on the Supreme Court is that it has not always been a foolproof barricade against unconstitutional censorship. They're a safety net, but it's best not to fall off the tightrope in the first place because you might just miss. The other problem is that between Tipper Gore and Clinton's willingness to sign the CDA I ended up voting Ralph Nader in 2000, then watched as Bush turned out to be more of an incompetent, liar, money-burner, and out-and-out war criminal than I ever thought possible. I don't want this to go to Obama, because if he gets blackmailed into signing it somehow, I won't know how to respond. Wnt (talk) 23:21, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. WP:NOTADVOCATE. 'Nuff said. If individual editors want to state their opinions on their user pages, they are free to do so. Hundreds of editors already do so, for a myriad of issues. Wikipedia is not in the business of advocating a political cause, even if it will directly affect them (which I highly doubt, but that's irrelevant). If Wikipedia does go into that business, they will lose my support. Buddy431 (talk) 23:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This, hilariously, has absolutely no teeth and is an pathetic conservative "lets pander to the opposers to get their support". At least have the gall to stick to your guns and propose a full outage. Anyway; Geoff's comment at the top is very uncompelling as he glosses over the word "indexed" (which has a specific technical meaning in relation to search engines). This protest is predicated on our being seen as a search engine which, lets face it, is impractical. SOPA is idiotice, American tech law is going the way of the dogs. Ignore it, up roots and go somewhere sane. Or put up and shut up. --Errant(chat!)00:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is a well crafted proposal and an appropriate response to dangerous legislation that stifles free speech. Wikipedia should take this opportunity to stand alongside all the other online communities that, like us, help make the Internet not suck. (Thanks Reddit, Twitter, Public Knowledge, Scribd, EFF) GobonoboTC17:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Wikipedia should not involve ourselves in political advocacy, period. To permit any deviation from that principle would be to fundamentally compromise our neutrality. Robofish (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Considering what happened to Veoh due to the UMG v. Veoh lawsuit (bankruptcy), despite winning at every stage of the litigation, this is quite prudent. We simply can't depend on the good graces of those who wanted to pass this legislation to interpret it according to the "specific technical meaning" of words. Let's face it, one argument UMG made in that lawsuit was that DMCA's takedown safe harbor provisions did not apply to Veoh because...the content was accessible from the Internet. (Never mind that the takedown provisions pretty much presupposes that the content is accessible.) Perhaps after years of litigation courts will find that SOPA does not apply to WMF, but that would still result in huge amounts of resources wasted by the Foundation. T. Canens (talk) 03:32, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support The bill has the strong possibility to pass into law, considering the amount of money backing it. Yes, it is true that WP tries to avoid bias. However, if this bill were made into law, and Wikipedia did not shutdown as a result and decided to continue on, Wikipedia would be forced by law to become biased. Rabbitfang16:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was basing that sentence off of what is said that WP would be required to do (e.g. remove links/references to some sites and to remove images that provide useful information for an article). Maybe 'biased' wasn't the best word; "less neutral" would probably be better. Rabbitfang22:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: We should not advocate to disenfranchise over 300 million people just because the whole Internet is in a tizzy over a proposed United States law. A single site notice, as with the donation drive. The Italian Wikipedia overreacted, in my opinion, and this would also be an extreme overreaction to shut down one of the most viewed Websites on the Internet. However, in the instance that we actually do this, I think it would be appropriate to enable it to be blocked via a Cascading Style Sheets entry so the savvy users and those who know of this need not be affected by it.—Ryulong (竜龙) 23:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read the proposal? It doesn't involve a shutdown. Access to the encyclopedia would remain (with no CSS workarounds required). Some of us regard this as an underreaction, but it appears to address your concerns. —David Levy00:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support this moderate proposal, which neither interrupts Wikipedia's educational mission nor is so weak as to be ignored. However, we should remember that this action is only one arrow from a large quiver - our more powerful tools include to compile good articles on everything related to this issue, to educate the public, to host discussions (perhaps on Wikiversity) of philosophical and practical alternatives to copyright, to join in a request for an injunction against the lawsuit and an overturn in the courts, and to support traditional lobbying and interview-based activism by prominent Wikimedia officials. Wnt (talk) 01:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I have been opposed to the earlier Chicken Little variants of anti-SOPA action, which were based on worst case scenario readings of a bill in its early stages. 24 Hour Shutdown was a gross overreaction to an exaggerated threat that would have alienated the public rather than mobilizing them for action. The proposal here is far less hamhanded as a response and includes coherent triggers. I think it would be effective. I still have misgivings about WMF inserting itself into politics in anything less than a life or death situation and am not convinced this bill rises to that level. However, in the name of solidarity, if nothing else, it is time for Wikipedia to join this campaign in a measured and thoughtful way — which this proposal does. Carrite (talk) 18:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 18:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support we ought to do something (as explained by many in the previous, and above, discussions), and a U.S. banner is certainly reasonable. —innotata22:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose I am not convinced that SOPA would have a substantial negative effect on us. We are not a search engine, we are a referenced encyclopaedia. I know judges can sometimes come to rather strange conclusions about technical matters, but I think even they can understand the difference between a search engine and an encyclopaedia (the definition of search engine given in the act is clearly just intended to codify the common meaning of the phrase and not to create a new definition). Even if we are deemed to be a search engine, all that means is we would be required to remove links to copyright infringing sites, which is our policy anyway. This act may cause serious problems for some parts of the internet, but I don't see it causing serious problems for us. We aren't here to protect the internet, we are here to make knowledge available to people. Let's concentrate on doing that and stay out of politics unless it really impacts on us. --Tango (talk) 16:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wikipedia stands for freedom of information and knowledge. Even if SOPA isn't a direct threat to Wikipedia, it is a threat to what it stands for. This is a reasonable proposal which will effectively get the message across, while still allowing access to content. Pvvni (talk)
Strong Support it would send a strong message to those who are working to take away the freedoms that Wikipedia represents. Whether or not Wikipedia is directly affected by the legislation (and I am certain it will be in one way or another), the foundation should take a stand when it counts.--Anon06:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose: Wikipedia is not an advocacy, users are free to observe an editing strike on their own. Also, there's much more than USA to the content in Wikipedia which should be the main concern of editors. --lTopGunl (talk)16:35, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh come on, "editing strike"? Who the hell will care or even know about it? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a playground for editors. There is a real world outside Wikipedia, and it pays to remember it and stand up for it.--Anon09:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As you can see from the amount of support on this page, lots of people care, including Jimmy Wales. From WP:NOT: a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow. It's a content guideline for editors, nobody is proposing we change the content.--Anon22:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for strong action, including a full blackout with banner. The only slippery slope here is the one which is starting to threaten Wikipedia's existence through SOPA lawsuits, takedowns, and the overhanging threat of such. First Light (talk) 17:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. At present, if a rights holder calls us out for hosting copyrighted material, we immediately identify what material is under discussion, excise it, and solve the problem. Under SOPA, as currently proposed, a rights holder who contends that an article violated their copyright could file a complaint, and then the Department of Justice could respond to the complaint with a seizure of the wikipedia.org domain. Period, full stop. The original claim does not have to be correct, just plausible. The speed with which some editor could rectify the problem is irrelevant. The analogy would be performing surgery with a heavy blunt object dropped from a great height - sure, it might crush the tumor, but the collateral damage would be frightful. UltraExactZZSaid~ Did19:28, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Suppport the proposed bill would do serious damage to Wikipedia (or at least the WMF's lawyer thinks so) and action of this nature can produce results as the Italian experience shows. NOTADVOCACY is irrelevant here: we aren't proposing to rewrite our article content to be biased against SOPA and our content policies aren't written with this kind of situation in mind. Hut 8.522:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support for the proposal as SOPA is detrimental to the free exchange of ideas. I also support an extended lockout of IP addresses coming from the Washington, D.C. area. This could entail blocking or redirecting requests made from IP pools held by Comcast, Cox, RCN, and Verizon that geolocate to the D.C. metro area. Webjedi (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question : If this happens, how do I go about getting back the donations I have given to Wikipedia over the years? I was not informed I was donating to a political organization dedicated to affecting the laws of the USA. Thank you. 97.89.52.45 (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I'm in support of powers that block offending websites that profit from illegality, particularly those that refuse to acknowledge DMCA takedown notices. This signals the end of The Pirate Bay, not Wikipedia, and anyone who suggests otherwise is being hysterical. — ThePowerofX12:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the blackout action as too extreme. Support the rest of the proposal. The threat to Wikipedia may or may not be a direct one but anyone who thinks that SOPA is not a threat is whistling past the graveyard. – Allen4names16:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support SOPA/PIPA are going to cause massive issues if they are passed (like pretty much anything Congress does, but, that's another debate for another time. :P), and Congress apparently STILL doesn't see that the people of the US (and around the world) don't support SOPA/PIPA. Wikipedia is one of the web's largest sites, and a black out to oppose SOPA/PIPA would be a great way to get the message across (especially if any of the Congressmen involved in the discussion use Wikipedia to look something up that day). AndrewNtalk17:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, despite my disappointment at the timid scope of the action. I'm indifferent to America inposing whatever laws it wants that affect those within its borders, but Wikipedia has a global reach. For as long as SOPA is deemed capable of affecting Wikipedia's operations, this is a global Wikipedia issue. Obviously this talk page has no juristiction on other language versions, but speaking as a Brit I feel that en.wiki's action should be implemented globally for maximum effect. —WFC— 19:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, although I want to see something stronger, such a total blackout for 24 hours, still with a page (or link to a page) talking about SOPA and what action readers can take. I think that any opposition at this point (based on my reading) comes from a selfish perspective ("don't take my content away!") or a misunderstanding of the dark ramifications of this legislation. This proposal is simply an action of the Wikipedia defending itself as well as the entirety of the Internet from the nearly self-evident abuses that would arise from corporate IP holders or anyone with a grudge. I don't ordinarily want the Wikipedia to take stands on issues. But this is unavoidable. Stevie is the man!Talk • Work22:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for a full blackout with SOPA themed banner. January 18th to show solidarity would be nice. If we wait too long this will build momentum and most of our politicians are pushovers once bills have momentum. Just look at what happened with NDAA. — Mckarnin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 05:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Strong support for a full international blackout, hopefully on January 18th. While we aspire to be neutral in contents, our mission is not neutral: we want to make all human knowledge available to everyone in the world. This requires a free and open Internet and as such we need to defend the Internet and fight against SOPA and PIPA. Drdee (talk) 15:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Isupport the limited measures that have been proposed here: a click-through "blackout", geolocated to the U.S. only, followed by a similar banner. I strongly oppose international action or a full blackout. My reasoning is that Wikipedia can act in its own interest, but should avoid either compromising its mission or campaigning unnecessarily. A complete blackout would compromise Wikipedia's mission, and international action is unnecessary campaigning in the face of a proposed U.S. law. Additionally, a blackout is the most extreme action we can take: while SOPA is dangerous for Wikipedia, playing the blackout ace lessens its potential future impact if needed. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits|⚡}}21:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support To be against this is to be against the very survival of Wikipedia as we know it along with everything it stands for. It's been proven countless times from experts all over the world including the very inventors of the Internet. Bring it down on the 18th. Cowicide (talk) 10:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose I DO NOT support this decision and feel that Wikipedia is now a public resource that should not be taken offline. If this action proceeds, then as of tomorrow, you will need to add a disclaimer to the non-bias policy, set out by this community, quoted below with new end sentence: 'Totalitarian governments and dogmatic institutions everywhere might find reason to be opposed to Wikipedia, if we succeed in adhering to our non-bias policy: the presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the creators of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions themselves.' Click 'edit' and add: Some animals on wikipedia are more equal than others and need to enforce their views on others by shutting down this website as part of a biased political protest. :-) This in no way means I am for or against the SOPA, as I do not think we should even be discussing it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.253.232 (talk) 23:45, January 17, 2012 Added after the discussion was closed. fredgandt
Committee meets on Wednesday
Could we at least send some letter to the committee by Wednesday (when they reconvene!), asking for them to at least carve an exception for WP? It'd kind of suck to have to move the servers to Iceland next year, if we could have just politely asked right now. :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:23, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Due to limited amount of time we have, if we pursue the open letter course, I would recommend the follow:
Have Jimbo Wales or another member of the WMF craft an open letter to the Committee. The letter should be hosted on the web.
Use Twitter to inform Committee members about the open letter.
Convince a Congressperson (via Twitter) to mention Wikipedia and its concerns during the markup session.
Congratulations to the two above editors for laying it out clearly: SOPA can do whatever it wants to the 'net as a whole, provided some exception for WP. Not joking, I much rather read clear positions tan the few holier than thou I've read above. - Nabla (talk) 02:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How would that work? If it's actually specific to WP, that wipes out our ability to fork, which would do away with Wikipedia being a "free encyclopedia", which is kind of important... --Yair rand (talk) 04:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Best not to try for those kind of earmarks. With the House as it is, it likely won't get much traction. Better to change something broader, like narrowing the rules to apply as close as to what the bill was originally intended for (not what it's become).∞陣内Jinnai05:40, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Don't do it
SOPA is an important issue, and I generally support any effort to derail it's possible passage. That being said, don't do this. Just... don't. Wikipedia should remain as apart as possible from any and all real world politics. Delving into the political field is the province of the Wikimedia Foundation (and, by extension, of Jimbo Wales himself). The editorial community of all of Wikimedia's properties should retain their neutrality, let alone their place as editors. If it's acceptable for the community, as a Wikipedia community, to become directly involved in politics then we have absolutely zero credibility when it comes to editorial decisions regarding any article with any political content to it. — V = IR(Talk • Contribs)09:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Although I support doing a SOPA blackout, this brings up a good point - should we have a disclaimer on the SOPA page stating that because of talk of doing this, we may have a bias on the issue? Pvvni (talk)
I am glad at least two persons have concerns here besides me. Just what does everyone here think is going to happen if all of a sudden tax status changes? Are they going to pay the taxes to keep this afloat? They don't even believe the Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of the very same judiciary committee who states calling in and sending letters to your particular Congressman as well as the Committee is WORKING. I am sure that they think they are helping but what they really are doing is unintentional plotting the possible end of Wikipedia! Please check this out yourself. It is all online.
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.
For a general overview of this and different foundations irs status look here at Wiki: 501(c) organization.
The key here is the "substantial part" test. It's complicated and I'm not an expert, but as an example, a typical test is to look at spending on lobbying, and the general rule here is that it must be less than 5% of total revenues. We have good advisers, and the Foundation isn't going to do anything that jeopardizes its tax status. Fear about that ought not to restrict community action in this area!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Earlier today reddit announced that they'll be blacking out the site for 12 hours on the 18th. If we do choose to move ahead with any action, it may be beneficial for us to sync the dates that these actions occur. Media outlets will then see that it's not just one rogue site out there that's doing this, but rather several working together toward a common goal. I think we should seriously consider taking action alongside them at this time. Pvvni (talk)
I want to state, in the strongest possible terms, my unequivocal support for blacking out WMF sites in solidarity/conjunction/coordination with reddit and anyone else who steps up to make January 18 a date to remember. I do not believe the threat SOPA poses is existential, remote, or minor. I believe that, like democracy itself, those who fail to take action at the top of the slippery slope will find it ever harder to stop once they are headed into the abyss. This is not a question of crying wolf. WMF is obligated to take action to protect itself in the face of threats to its mission, much less existence. The community must likewise take action to inspire a political response to defeat SOPA and PIPA. I don't see room for waffling. I see the need for courage and leadership from one of the great websites in the world.
Ronald Reagan is quoted often for saying "extremism in defense of liberty is no vice." Folks, liberty is precious. Ask those who are without it. Allowing this kind of constriction around the throat of liberty is intolerable in my view. I support strong, direct action calculated towards education and intended to inspire everyone who is affected by the blackout to act politically to change the direction of the legislation. It must be killed.
Geoff has done a fine job in parsing the language from a legal perspective, and I doff my cap for his efforts. At an event for lawyers this evening, I was astonished at how few relatively informed people I know had even heard of SOPA, much less considered it on the merits, much less been inspired to take any action about it. I utterly disagree with those who trivialize this legislation or the need for a response. I also believe categorically that the situations where such action is necessary will likely be infrequent. But a challenge to Section 230 of the CDA, or legislative attempts to restrict the internet in the name of bogus IP concerns, or technical threats to WMF's independence on the web? No way.
I couldn't agree more. We should do it. On the 18th. To show the support of the tech community on the day their members are testifying in congress. This is a big fight, and one of the first ones that has actually threatened the internet in any meaningful way. So, for 12 hours, 9am-9pm, we should have click-through on every page, if not a full blackout. Provide links to information, how to contact congressional reps (geo-targeted), simple talking points, and a note that PIPA (Senate version) shares many of SOPA's (House version) problems. Ocaasit|c06:26, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would be very interested in substantiation of WMF "threats to its ... existence". Most especially in view of the analysis that Wikipedia wouldn't even be affected by SOPA, or at very very worst might have to remove some links. Much of the misinformation I have seen strikes me indeed as "crying wolf", in the interests of panicking the village. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 08:03, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" [7] barry goldwaer Slowking4⇔ †@1₭13:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In order to ensure that it has time to set up any systems that may be needed to support community consensus, the Wikimedia Foundation is requesting input from the community to help it determine what action is likely to be taken and when. Please help out there. Thanks! --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 18:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's getting quite tiresome to have to chase this issue across the website. One could be forgiven for wondering whether the proponents aren't just asking the question again and again in the hopes of getting above the 60-70% support they've gotten on Jimbo's talk and here. One could be forgiven for thinking there's something wrong with that. Lagrange61307:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
I propose that we get rid of, "delete" if you like, the Reviewer userright. There is just no point to having it anymore, as the pending changes trial failed and it's just a spare right you can't do anything with. If we can't get any more of them, and the people with it can't do anything, we don't need it. It should just be got rid of, because there's nothing special it enables users to do. Rcsprinter(talkin' to me?)16:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Pending changes still exists, it has just been removed from all articles following no-consensus on how it should be used and applied. That does not mean that pending changes will never make a come back. Pol430talk to me16:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As said above. There will probably be another RfC at another time, especially considering (IMO) the illegitimacy of the vote that resulted in the feature being turned off. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢16:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This just seems like morre backhanded attempts to permanently remove PC through procedural objections, rather than resolving the actual issue of whether we should be using it at all. Until the larger issue is resolved, there is no point in even discussing this. Its not doing any harm and is invisible, so why remove it when we may have to put it back in the future? Beeblebrox (talk) 17:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I was an opponent of Pending Changes until I actually saw it employed effectively with respect to a controversial and legally sensitive BLP. That sold me on P.C. as a legitimate vandalism-fighting tool to be employed in certain extremely limited circumstances. I don't think that the system of Pending Changes is dead forever; until that time, it doesn't make sense to blow away the user right. If nothing has happened with Pending Changes within the next year or two, it might be time to revisit this matter. Carrite (talk) 17:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support - If we ever need it again it can be brought back. At the momment, the only thing it does is 'big up' users who think that having elevated user rights makes them superior. Oddbodz (talk) 19:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose-Maintaining it does absolutely no harm, and saves a lot of of work if/when pending changes (or any similar function) is restored. Developer time is precious; asking them to waste on something like this is a bad idea.--Fyre2387(talk • contribs)20:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - when we need it again over 5K pre-approved users don't need to apply; personally, I'm appalled that during my wikibreak reviewing came and went. Additionally, it's a great 'big up' for users who know that having elevated user rights makes them superior. Josh Parris21:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good grief! I hope for the sake of all that's good about Wikipedia, you are kidding. If elevated user rights have any value, I shudder at the thought of it being that they make any users feel or be in any way superior. If your sentiment is in fact serious, I think you've just made a fine argument in favour of removing as many elevated user rights as possible (without undermining the ability of folk to do their jobs). fredgandt10:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Who said it needed improvement? It just needs another RfC advertised better. The initial RfC to activate the feature had about 650 participants, 75% of whom voted in support of the feature. The ill-formed RfC that brought it down on the basis that there was no discussion to implement it (gotta have a meeting about when to have that meeting after all, or things will never get done) had approximately 215 participants, 70% voted to remove it. In other words, three times as many editors approved the initial roll out as resulted in its shutting down. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢01:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as it's not in the way and may, someday, be useful once again. And I'm not convinced it's actually the large amount of dead weight it's alleged to be. If there are 5,544 editors with the reviewer flag set, I'd guess there're no more than 8192 bytes of weight in DB content and extra code. And probably, if we somehow convinced the developers to get the reviewer right out of our faces, they'd implement it by either just hiding it (no reduction to DB or code, possible increase in code) or flipping all the bReviewer bits from =1to=0 (resulting in no savings to DB weight). This thread alone has already added 22 kB to the bulk of Wikipedia, so just discussing it has 3 or 4 times the burden.
This isn't impeding our progress; this is hardly a huge, heavy barnacle on the SS Wikipedia. It's not even a little tine barnacle. It's a splotch of extra paint in a different color, just below the waterline. One can see it if one knows where to look, but mostly it doesn't bother anyone, nor should it. — JohnFromPinckney (talk)15:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if Pending changes doesn't come back there is zero benefit in getting rid of the reviewer right, and some lost opportunities as there are bound to be other uses one can make of the reviewer right and the work that went into approving those thousands of reviewers; If only as a prospect pool for future RFA candidates. If Pending changes does come back there is a huge benefit in already having thousands of reviewers already approved. I'm assuming that sooner or later either the community will change its mind re Pending changes, or something will happen that forces us to take vandalism more seriously and implement this or the flagged revisions system that works on DE and other wikis. Remember we as a community are in decline whilst our readership and with it spam and vandalism are on the increase. So at some point we will need to implement systems that enable our volunteers to use their time more efficiently and identify edits that others have not yet checked. While the WMF may not currently be directly investing in this, one of the areas of research that a number of people have been looking at is the automated identification of vandalism. I think we have most of the ingredients in place to build a system where dubious edits are identified for review, and as long as only those with the admin or reviewer rights know which edits are identified as dubious I think we could devise a system which combines the efficiency of knowing which dubious edits another reviewer has checked with the open editing model of newbies not knowing that their edit is going to be looked at. ϢereSpielChequers17:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No comment on PC itself, but I don't think we can remove the user group itself without making a massive mess of the logs from when it was in use. Donno, ask the devs, I guess. Sven ManguardWha?17:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support, let's end this already. If this stuff ever comes back, we can still solve these problems then. For now, however, the userright should be removed from our configuration. --The Evil IP address (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, keeping it doesn't hurt anything, but getting rid of it might cause problems (presumably including a lot of duplication of effort) if consensus changes on this issue. I'm somewhat doubtful that this is possible, since MediaWiki includes it for wikis such as de:wp, but even if it's possible to remove it just from en:wp, I still don't think that removal is a good idea. Nyttend (talk) 00:49, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
User rights can easily be turned on and off selectively by project as can all extensions. The effort in turning it on and off is trivial. Though, like asking someone to turn the light switch off after you've just asked them to turn it on and they've sat down, a bit annoying. It can be configured differently on different wikis too (different namespaces affected, different user groups created, etc). I have no position on the matter, did not test it here, but use it regularly at mw.org and la.ws.--Doug.(talk • contribs)14:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support: it's useless right now and if any feature using it will be enabled in a future, re-evaluation of the those who have this right will take more time then doing it from scratch. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. There was never a policy behind this user right - it was given out haphazardly and in some cases (as mine) it was taken away without reason also. So it doesn't actually mean anything. While I understand the position that a meaningless right isn't worth cleaning up, the Pending Changes trial has definitely had an "undead" character about it, failing to end on one deadline after another - even hanging on with one administrator trying to use it after the trial was thoroughly over. I think by now standard undead safety protocols definitely apply - stake, decapitate, salt, and burn! Wnt (talk) 05:14, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of userright, but not deletion. This was one of the reasons why I opposed PC even if I recognized its utility. The userright was handed out willy-nilly with no real guidelines as to what they should have been doing. Having witnessed several users - who really shouldn't have been given any special userrights yet, much less a reviewer userright - using it for purposes other than blatant vandalism/BLP violations, it made me realize that these people were basically quasi-oversights with the power to dictate what revisions are publicly visible without having earned it. I understand that having a large number of reviewers quickly was part of the trial, but then again it was a trial that forgot to stop. I still hope a saner PC can be implemented with more rigorously chosen reviewers at least for BLPs, but until then, the reviewer rights should be stripped from those who currently have it since it was given for testing reasons.-- Obsidi♠nSoul14:09, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per WereSpielChequers: one of these days, the enwiki community will have a sudden rush of blood to the head and implement pending changes for BLPs, right? May as well keep the user right around for when that happens! I mean, we already have pending changes: it's just called {{editprotected}} and it has a much worse UI than pending changes does. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but no big deal. The right was given out much too casually, and it is reasonable to require that it be reassigned when there is a well thought out proposal underway. It's worth remembering that one of the problems identified in the last trial was that it had never been worked out what responsibilities reviewers should have. I would expect that any future trial will address that issue, and it would be a hassle to have to take back the right on a case-by-case basis. Better to give it out case-by-case, starting fresh. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of this largely redundant tool, the raison d'être is dormant (for want of a better word). The tool can be resurrected at the same time as 'Son of Pending Changes'. --Ohconfucius¡digame!12:28, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - generally per WereSpielChequers. The right was inxeed handed out indiscriminately, but not as indiscrimate as the current right for anyone to patrol new pages. If NPP were ever to be made a pixie hat, then we have a ready made right for it (with a couple of tweaks), and a pool of people who can't be any less knowledgeable than some of the newbies for whom NPP seems to be a magnet. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of the reviewer flag from all users, but not the deletion of the reviewer flag. When the flag was originally handed out, there were no criteria in which to vet the candidates. If we ever turn Pending Changes back on, it would be best to have a clearer criteria. However, the exact criteria and details is for another RfC. Alpha_Quadrant(talk)00:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support removing the right from all that hold it, but oppose its deletion. There may well be a use for the reviewer right in the future; there is no benefit in deleting it. However, no one actually needs the right at the moment, and removing it from everyone will ease any future changes or proposals. ItsZippy(talk • contributions)18:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hidden withdrawn fork proposal
Fork proposal to do something more positive with this unused user-right
I have no idea if what I'm about to suggest is even possible (from a technical perspective), but here goes:
At the moment the reviewer user right only grants the holder the ability to perform a limited number of functions on articles that are protected with pending changes—of which there are currently none. How about re-configuring this user-right to allow the holder to perform functions that are currently only resricted to Autoconfirmed users. Specifically, I am proposing to: Restrict the ability to mark new pages as patrolled to users holding the reviewer flag—whilst maintaining the reviewer flag's ability to perform pending changes functions.
Why?
This new, additional function, would seem to bring the actions of this user-right more into line with what the name suggests.
Currently there is lack of interest at new pages patrol. Due to the inevitable interest that having 'user-rights' attracts, doing this may just boost participation in this largely forgotten about—but nevertheless important—area of Wikipedia.
There are issues concerning the quality of patrolling at new pages, it is an area that new users sometimes like to get involved with, without having the required knowledge of policy and guidelines to be able to effectively judge how to deal with them.
Should pending changes ever make a comeback, as the result of a new RfC, we still retain backwards compatibility and a suitable pool of users to review PC edits.
The result of WP:ACTRIAL showed that there was consensus to restrict article creation to auto-confirmed users, this indicates (IMO) that the community recognizes that the quality of new pages needs more oversight. The WMF ultimately refused to implement that suggestion. This proposal furthers the goal of ensuring new pages meet the required standards.
We already have over 5,000 users with this right, most are perfectly capable but some may have been granted it prematurely to get the pending changes trial off the ground. It would seem reasonable to keep the existing pool of reviewers but allow admins to discretionally remove it from editors who abused the right or demonstrated a lack of WP:COMPETENCE.
As far as appointing new reviewers goes, I propose the following:
Those editors who have already demonstrated good judgement and knowledge of policy and guidelines at NPP could be given the flag.
Editors who have otherwise demonstrated a sound understanding of policy and guidelines. Based, for example, on their arguments at AfD discussions or on their judgement in creating new article submissions at AfC.
Other considerations
Currently only articles accessed via Special:Newpages present the mark as patrolled link but this should not pose a barrier to implementing this suggestion.
Consideration would need to be given to how this proposal would affect page marking in Twinkle and Huggle. Huggle can only be used by rollbackers but anyone can use Twinkle.
Oppose. As I said above, standard undead safety precautions apply! It's too easy for someone to say, oh, we have this pool of super users all marked out, so let's start a caste system. It reminds me of what happened in Germany or Rwanda where countries have, almost as an afterthought, printed someone's race or religion on an identity card and before long thanks to that they're having an orderly holocaust. Now I do think we could have some special recognition for high-quality editors more organized than barnstars, but the point is, we shouldn't start it arbitrarily and we shouldn't be starting with it hard-coded into special rights. That the special right being restricted in this proposal is one of the dullest, most thankless, and most difficult tasks on the wiki for which every spare hand should be accepted with gratitude doesn't make it any better. Wnt (talk) 17:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cautious support - It should only be used for lower-order tasks and not anything as drastic as viewing/restoring deleted pages etc. I'm not sure giving less people access to New Page Patrol will increase participation but who knows. MarcusQwertyus07:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - New Page Patrolling is unpopular as it is; we want to encourage as many people as possible to be taking part. Restricting who can mark pages as patrolled would just make the situation worse - we'll probably have a situation where those users who are attracted by userrights ask for it and are granted it, get excited, use it twice, then request some other right. In addition, this is likely to ward off NPPers who occasionally patrol, but not enough to think requesting a userright worthwhile - we will lose all of these. Patrolling pages doesn't really require that much trust - the worst that can happen is that a poor page is patrolled and caught by a wikignome a little later than usual. I see no reason for not allowing autoconfirmed users that right. By the way, I like the Reductio ad Hitlerum above. ItsZippy(talk • contributions)17:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per ItsZippy's comments above. We need to be making it easier for new contributors to get involved in Wikipedia processes, not harder. Seeing as how the Unpatrolled backlog is currently at 28 (!) days, restricting who can mark them as patrolled will only exacerbate that problem. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 20:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No evidence that these users are anything more that a testing pool. Retrofitting the admin accounts with rights not all of them are capable of using properly is bad enough. Let's not take this further to a random set of testers of an indefinitely suspended feature. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Yes, I accept that, but they need to have a certain level of knowledge of WP:PAG; additionally, handing out flags does tend to increase interest—take file mover as an example. It may well be true that such interest will be temporary, but that remains to be seen. Anyhow I appreciate the feedback above—apart from the comparison with Rwandan genocide and Nazi ideology, which is somewhat detached from reality. I think we can consider this fork proposal without support and therefore withdrawn. Pol430talk to me00:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Even though I got my reviewer bit removed and added the tag to WP:PERM/RW. We may take it back up in 1 year or way longer. Just remove from everyone that currently has it. ~~Ebe123~~ → report on my contribs. 01:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I table a proposal to the Wikipedia community that I hope you will support. Since May, I have been rather active in attempts to reform the dispute resolution processes. Back in June, I proposed the creation of the dispute resolution noticeboard, which has been reasonably successful in its aims to provide an open style of addressing content disputes.
Since then, I have been working on a few other ideas. While I want to come up with a way to tackle POV pushing, my current proposal is Wikipedia:Binding RFCs, a method for resolving intractable content disputes. The proposal explains how the process would work, but in essence, it's a two part discussion which would be closed by three users, an admin, a user experienced in the subject area, and a user experienced in dispute resolution. I envision the discussion structure would somewhat resemble the recent RFC on the verifiability policy, but with some changes, part one of the discussion would only be to present evidence in favour of X proposal or Y proposal (policies, reliable sources, past precedent etc) and the second part being an AfD styled discussion, with comments weighed depending on strength of argument.
I'm happy to answer any questions relating to my proposal and clarify any details. I feel the proposal page itself explains how the process would work, thus I have not rehashed it here. I think that this differs as opposed to other binding content proposals because it puts the power to resolve these issues in the hands of the community. I encourage comments on this and hope this is something the community will support. Regards, StevenZhangJoin the DR army!07:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Essentially, an editorial board staffed by the DR people? That's not putting decisions in the hand of the community, that's putting them in the hand of a cabal. Now there is nothing wrong with decisions being made by cabals (every area has its regulars)... but binding ones? Dangerous stuff. Binding decisions, if they should ever be taken, should only be taken by people vetted by the community as a whole. There is already an arbitration committee for handling "binding" decision; and no, I don't think we need an editorial committee to rule over actual content. This is not the idea I have of a wiki, and definitely not the one I have of Wikipedia. CharlieEchoTango (contact) 07:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think you completely misread my proposal. At the moment, AfDs, RFCs and many other discussions are closed by admins. This proposal would not create a cabal at all. It would mean that instead that three independent users would close the discussions, as opposed to one. The suggestion of a user experienced in th area (say a WikiProject participant of the topic) may be able to add perspective, and a user experienced in DR would help ensure that other venues of DR were tried first. There could be a requirement for these users to be admins, though I note a few discussions that were closed by non-admins well (ie the Ireland article names RFC a month or so ago). But I want to emphasize this is not a creation of a new content committee, I agree that's a bad idea. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!08:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Random comment "To table" something in America means to remove it from discussion, which is quite the opposite in Britain. Just a friendly reminder for future discussions so we damn Americans can follow. Angryapathy (talk) 18:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
American and British usages are exactly opposite. On one side of the pond it means to take up and on the other side it means to lay aside. Diplomats are schooled to avoid the phrase because it has led to some embarrassing misunderstandings. The two dialects deceptively similar, with countless booby traps like this. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Steve, I still think this is a bad idea. Editors that were once active in one area of Wikipedia may have switched to another area of wikipedia. Also, requiring 3 people to close a discussion can drag out discussions unnecessarily.Curb Chain (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment' - While I'm very much in favor of reining in and, if necessary, eliminating POV warriors, I'm not sure that a draconian device such as this advertised on obscure noticeboards populated by certain sorts of WP volunteers is the answer. I've seen too much of the drama board lynch mob mentality around here. Ultimately this should be the function of our elected representatives, ArbCom. That they seem to have no taste for "resolving content disputes" (even though they, in practice, do exactly that) is part of their own group failing, in my view. They need to work faster, to seek less massive and often irrelevant testimony, and to be more aggressive topic-banning POV warriors off their treasured battlegrounds. I'm not saying that binding content rulings is a bad thing, I just don't trust the precise mechanism you propose to deliver fair and well-considered results. Carrite (talk) 17:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ya know, part of th problem with many current discussions is a lack of knowledge by the community that they exist. I would think that using watchlist notices advertising the creation of a binding discussion would attract the attention of more editors than something like an AN thread. I also do think that having three closers will deliver a more balanced result as opposed to just one closer. That said, we won't know unless we try. I've in fact been discussing this with arbitrator Casliber as an alternative to Remedy 5.1 of the Abortion case, as I feel it would be a good test case, but realise this process needs to get the support of the community first. Thus, I am asking for the support of the community. If the test case goes well, then great. If it crashes and burns, then at least we know it doesn't work, but we won't know if we don't try. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!19:44, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Getting warriors out would be a user issue, so Arb, right? So I would support but for content disputes, with nothing about indevidual users. ~~Ebe123~~ → report on my contribs. 21:19, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. RFCs are binding, aren't they? You can't just ignore consensus. The only thing this proposal seems to introduce is a limit on how soon another RFC can be opened. Do we actually have a problem with people opening new RFCs after the first one doesn't get the answer they want (assuming the first one did result in a clear consensus)? --Tango (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That and the fact that discussions get over-closed as no-consensus. That at Talk:China to make China about the People's Republic rather than the civilisation/history the discussion was closed as consensus even though only 51% of editors were in support was helpful to moving forward. And that seems to be an unusual step. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That strikes me as exactly the kind of reason I don't want such majority votes. I think it was the wrong close, one likely made for political reasons, and one which introduced more instability by making a snap decision. I still don't understand quite how this was arranged..... Wnt (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Tango, RFC's are not binding, no. People often ignore consensus, because it's not the consensus that they want, and often things like topic bans do not work. The dispute over the images at Muhammad is a good example of this. The other problem with continued discussion is that if one RFC closes with X result, some users will not be happy with the result, even if there was a clear consensus, and they may open another RFC(s) until they get the result they want. This often causes disruption to the wiki, and drives editors away, and this is what the process I am proposing is designed to tackle. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!21:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
RFCs are not binding, and they are occasionally ignored, but the usual method of "ignoring" is to claim that you're asking a new question. And sometimes you actually are asking a new question, so we can't just ban that. To give an example of a complicated situation: There was an RFC a while ago about whether to have an art nude be the first picture at Pregnancy. Most editors said no. They gave two basic classes of reasons, one of which boiled down to editorial judgment (what they thought best for the article), and the other of which was a fairly technical issue about whether the nude woman had consented to have her picture spread around the internet in the first place. So it closed as "no nude in the lead—unless there really was valid consent for posting the nude photograph to Commons, in which case who knows ("no consensus"), because we honestly have no idea what all of the editors worried about consent would think if the consent were correctly verified". Well, the consent issue was (finally) resolved (apparently at the cost of greatly irritating the photographer). The pro-nude group said that the now-lack of consensus meant that the article was required to have an artsy nude in the lead. The other editors opened a new RFC, to deal with the "new" question, which was "Now that nobody has to worry about that tricky consent issue, what do you want to do in this article?" That is, IMO, a valid "new" question, but the losing side (the pro-nude group knew they were going to lose, and in fact it was ultimately about 70% against using the nude in the lead) spent weeks complaining that this was "ignoring" an RFC that should have been binding. The thing is that most disputes aren't binary. It's not a question of "yes" or "no". To use this same example, the "simple" question was really multiple questions: "Shall we have any image in the lead? If so, what image (from among hundreds already available to us) shall we put there? Shall we use this art nude in this article at all? If so, shall we use it in the lead or in another section? What caption shall we give the art nude, if we use it?" It's hard to envision a binding decision on such a discussion that we'd really want to make binding. "Let's stop arguing over having a nude in the lead" would be helpful (having that nude in the lead had generated persistent complaints since it was first added), but "We decided on the woman in the blue shirt" isn't necessarily something that anyone would want to consider binding. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I envision that this process would be used for things like naming disputes. Stuff like "should we use X or Y image of Julia Gillard in the lede" should not require a binding RFC, and can be resolved through normal editorial discussion. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!23:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And if it was subject to continued discussion it would be quite difficult to argue that the new RFC had been carried out in good faith, as appears to have been the case with Pregnancy. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. (Disclaimer - though it is mostly Steve's work, I had a small hand in creating this proposal.) It has become increasingly apparent to me that we need something like this to handle really intractable disputes. This proposal is simple, powerful, and more community-focused than the current de-facto method of leaving ArbCom to organize things. — Mr. Stradivarius♫22:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This not a well crafted proposal for the reasons explained above by Carrite and Tango, as well as a few others (myself included) on the proposal's talk page. Amusingly, since this proposal aims to impose a more structured form of DR, it kinda fails at dogfooding by having this split discussion, which was probably unintentional, but still smacks of WP:FORUMSHOP. (And as a side note, I've looked at a few closed threads on the vaunted DRN. They are a mere continuation of the bickering on talk pages, and most of them are closed inconclusively.) ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that it is forum shopping, I am merely trying to get more input. If you feel it is not crafted well, you feel free to make changes. I don't see anyone else trying to improve DR, but if you think you can do better, than be my guest. I don't claim to have all the answers but at least I am trying. I'd welcome constructive comments and ideas but do not take kindly to comments that amount to "X and Y are crappy proposals". And DRN isn't the problem, it's a lack of people to deal with the issues (read- not enough mediators) Is it perfect? No. Could it be better? Of course. But has it helped people? You betcha. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!10:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merely posting a notice here is not forum shopping. However, presenting this discussion, which is held in a rather irregular place for policy adoption (if you look at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikipedia policies and guidelines), as proof of support [8] is testing the boundaries of forum-shopping, particularly when there have been more comments on the proposal's talk page than here. Also switching the place of the CENT-advertised RfC [9] is not exactly kosher either. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, discussion is needed. If I was posting in multiple places that I wanted people to support, that'd be forum shopping. Anyways, discussion has been rather slow. What I'm after is more comments on the process, suggestions and ideas so we can make it viable, and go from there. The proposal possibly isn't 100% yet, so I'd welcome comments. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!20:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware that this section is not intended to be a vote, so I won't bold my support. But I think most people agree that a way of making long term, binding decisions short of Arbcom is needed. This is not the finished article because the structure of these RfCs hasn't been clearly defined, but the prerequisites to and principles of it are the right ones. —WFC— 01:34, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Since the current system doesn't seem to be working particularly well, I think it's a good idea to try something which sounds a bit more streamlined. Miniapolis (talk) 15:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, since this certainly seems a realistic attempt to solve a real problem, though I'm not convinced we need more process here, just a change of mindset - we need to see admins being (a) more willing to close (and enforce the results of) all kinds of protracted discussions, not just the ones for which we have a process for like AfD and RM; (b) willing (and permitted) to do a bit of focused chatting and informal mediating as part of the closure process, rather than just jumping in. Oh, and (c) prepared to look at the substance of the arguments when doing closures, rather than just counting. --Kotniski (talk) 16:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can think of some areas of Wikipedia where a binding RfC process would be useful; I'm reminded of the Ireland article name controversy. However, I would want any process such as this only being used when absolutely necessary. My suggestion would be to require ArbCom to first certify a dispute as "good faith but intractable" before a binding RfC could be authorized. –Grondemar18:55, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Some issues will never be resolved, and the health of the community would be best served by a binding arrangement, even if it's the wrong result. Who cares about the length of a dash, or which image is used in an article, or whether X is English/British/Polish-English? The answer is that lots of people care, and the interminable back-and-forth is a huge distraction. There needs to be a review process, but that has to be time limited (for example, a binding RfC might say "this article will use this image in the lead; can review in one year"). I would prefer to lose an argument if the matter were settled, and I could focus on something hopefully more productive for a few months. Johnuniq (talk) 06:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Here is the proposal language as seen above
While I want to come up with a way to tackle POV pushing, my current proposal is Wikipedia:Binding RFCs, a method for resolving intractable content disputes. The proposal explains how the process would work, but in essence, it's a two part discussion which would be closed by three users, an admin, a user experienced in the subject area, and a user experienced in dispute resolution. I envision the discussion structure would somewhat resemble the recent RFC on the verifiability policy, but with some changes, part one of the discussion would only be to present evidence in favour of X proposal or Y proposal (policies, reliable sources, past precedent etc) and the second part being an AfD styled discussion, with comments weighed depending on strength of argument.
and I disagree in general on the grounds that this proposal is redundant. The present process used is enough. I find RFCs to be regarded with some contempt. I don't see this proposal helping with that problem. Just to cite an example from the specific proposal language under "Enforcement":
It is expected that most issues would concern article titles, and as such the result of a binding RFC over a naming dispute could be enforced through page move protection. Other issues with content may need to be enforced with somewhat modified discretionary sanctions or topic bans, combined with edit notices on the appropriate pages, and warnings. For example, if a binding RFC makes it evident that X content should be removed because it violates Y policy, such as BLP, and a user reinserts this anyways, then they would be warned and directed to the discussion that took place, with other actions such as page bans would need to be considered. This could either occur by administrator decision, or by discussion at the admins noticeboard, or another relevant board.
Why doesn't it? I probably should. In anycase, the 3 people giving the final say on an issue of how content should be? The first problem I already see with this is how this will change editing for everyone simply because a decision had been already made. This is the nature of wiki. You can't assume that 3 people can be the judicial system of content on wikipedia.Curb Chain (talk) 12:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly you aren't going to get a single arbitrator to agree with you - and secondly because it would impede on their ability to tackle behavioural issues. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem I see with this proposal is how it is trying to allow another decision making process on wikipedia to take place, contrary to the communitywide decision making process of consensus. I see, if this was to go ahead, one decision making process used for non consensus issues, and everything else goes through WP:CONSENSUS. What is the point of that? Who decides a discussions must go through a binding RfC?Curb Chain (talk) 00:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I really have to disagree here. Think of it this way. Pretty much all discussions on Wikipedia are closed by one or more users. RFAs are closed by a bureaucrat after 7 days of discussions, where they evaluate the consensus in the discussion. XFDs also run for 7 days and are closed by an uninvolved admin, who closes the discussion as per the consensus. This is pretty much what would happen here as well, except we increase the amount of closers from one to three. These users would not make unilateral decisions, but evaluate consensus. That's the norm, and I too would disagree with a community process where three users decide an issue unilaterally. That is not the case here. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!21:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose What an invitation to Wiki-Lawyering this would be. People noting the dates in their calendars as to when the rumble could begin again. People make peace! Consensus can be hard to find over contentious topics. Locking any POV is going to stir trouble, not solve it. Sometimes NPOV is that there is contention. htom (talk) 17:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So we should just discuss controversial topics forever?
Yes, that's what you do with controversial ideas; and only if you give up the "good fight", abandoning the field to the other POVers. Your call.htom (talk) 22:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone who gets involved in controversial topics is a POVer. Some of us want to follow the policies and principles we follow elsewhere in the project.
Support This will take a bit more discussion but basically I think it would be a good idea to have RfCs to have a reasonable time set on their result so we don't have POV warriors grinding their way through to sticking in their ideas and removing other editors by exhaustion. Bad results might occasionally get set in stone for a while but it would free up editors to look at disputes properly and not being in eternal war mode. Dmcq (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support - When mediation and arbcom have failed, this should be available. This wouldn't mean this procedure would have to be used in that case, just that it could if a request for its use was granted (think certiorari). SMP0328. (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the problem here is that no-one knows what such a discussion would look like. It won't look like an RFC, that's just the title I chose (for lack of a better name). I'll create a mock-up page of how it would work so you all can get a better idea. Regards, StevenZhangJoin the DR army!21:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We do know what a binding RFC would look like. We have had several examples of them. Each one was different according to the needs of the community involved in the dispute, but they have shared common features. --RA (talk) 23:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. RFC's, if closed by an uninvolved admin or in some cases by an editor are already binding, that is until a new discussion is started were consensus might shift against the RFC's outcome and therefore can overrule any previous attempt of solution. I don't think we should make changes that go against established principles that, so far worked out just fine most of the time.TMCk (talk) 01:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, RFCs are not binding right now, even if they are closed by an uninvolved admin. The results are commonly respected, but that's largely due to the implicit threat that people not accepting the results could be blocked for disruption. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which is what makes them binding (or ought to). If someone keeps recreating an article that's been deleted through AfD, there's nothing physically to stop them, until they get blocked (or the title protected, though they can get round that by creating it under different titles). Same with RfCs: if you keep editing against the consensus, then the page will be protected, or (preferably) you'll get blocked. "Binding" on WP can only really mean this. And we should be a lot more vigorous in ensuring that disputes are actually settled through the discussion, i.e. through (not necessarily unanimous) consensus, as opposed to the only alternative - which is settlement through edit-warring and random page protection, which can hardly be of benefit to the encyclopedia.--Kotniski (talk) 10:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The Israel-Palestine conflict area shows that it does more harm than good. We actually had a "centralized discussion" on an issue. The close was contentious, and opening a new RfC or even a sub RfC to address outstanding issues has not been possible. The implementation was terrible. It simply didn't work even though it could have been a great thing. Consensus grows and shifts over time. Relying on an RfC that could be out of date is not the way to improve contentious topic areas. We should not be adding yet another level of bureaucratic hoops since it will only be used to shout down further discussion by Wikilawyers. Cptnono (talk) 03:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking as someone who mediated an Israel/Palestine case for a few months back in 2008 over one word, the I/P dispute outlines exactly why such a process is needed. Everyone agreeing on something is never going to happen. Structure is important to such discussions, and is something I intend to demonstrate (when I get a chance). As for doing more harm than good, I'd make the argument that endless arguments on such matters (many examples from I/P disputes, for example) drives away more editors than a binding discussion would. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!03:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. The centralized discussion (Wikipedia:Legality_of_Israeli_settlements) was an enormous if imperfect success. It's probably one of the most significant improvements in the topic area that has taken place since Wikipedia started. It largely put an end to pointless disruptive discussions and edit warring in articles all over the topic area about this issue, but far more importantly, policy compliance has been increased in a very large number of articles. The only people edit warring the content out now are vandals who are reverted on sight and blocked by admins. The issue was not contentious at all in reliable source world and what the sources say is not going to change. It was contentious in Wikipedia because of many editor's inability and disruptive unwillingness to simply follow policy. That is exactly why these kind of discussions with binding decisions are necessary. Sean.hoyland - talk06:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is entirely political. There are problems in the real world where people don't agree. As in real life, calling the People's Repulic Of China "China" is a political move, especially in the presence of Taiwan or certain Taiwanese nationalists. The situation on Wikipedia is the mirror of the real world.Curb Chain (talk) 20:56, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reflections from the Ireland-names example
Apologies in advance for very long post.
I was very involved in the Ireland-names example: I proposed that the issue be resolved through a binding RFC. Despite that, however, I would be very cautious about bringing binding RFCs into the fold of every-day dispute resolution mechanisms.
There seems to be a sense here that a proposal like this is an obviously good idea. I would absolutely disagree that. Binding RFCs can lead to deep rifts in editors (as it did on Wikiproject Ireland) and do not lead the the "right" answer (the dispute they resolve are those where there is no "right" answer). This is because they run contrary to normal collaborative and consensus-based practice on Wikipedia and, by their very nature, they strip whole swathes of (constructive and well-intentioned) editors of their voice either indefinitely or for a set amount of time.
Because of this, anything like a binding RFC is rarely, if ever, a good idea and, therefore, having an explicit process for them would be a bad idea IMO. In practice, if binding RFCs were commonplace, I believe they would quickly fall into something akin to what I call the "tyranny of consensus": decisions where consensus is not allowed to change because, we are told, the existing arrangement is consensus and attempts to change it are, therefore, disruptive. Situations like that are incredibly vexatious and not a good idea, either for dispute resolution or content development. Certainly, I do not believe that commonplace binding RFCs would promote either harmonious relationships or good solutions to difficult questions.
Despite this, I would suggest that there is no need for a proposal of this sort: the means for binding RFCs already exist — and bindings RFCs do have a place — but their place is under WP:IAR. Under WP:IAR, the existing precedents for binding RFCs already allow for binding solutions to inextricable disputes. However, under the existing arrangement they are entered into only when all other means are exhausted and where participants to the dispute agree mutually that a binding RFC, outside of the normal "rules" of Wikipedia, is the best, probably only, way forward. That is what gives the existing examples of bindings RFCs the strength of legitimacy they need.
Further, I don't believe it is wise that a proposal for a process that diverges so greatly from core wikipedia policy and current practice should come from the ether. The best policies and guidelines come from already existing practice. They begin as consensus already and are simply formalised into policy. Therefore, I don't think that a proposal like this is a wise idea. An essay or guideline that drew on the lessons of the examples of binding RFCs that we already have may be a good idea. But coming up with a brand new process for something like this, without basing that process on the learning we already have, would, in my opinion, be a bad idea.
Finally, from my experience on the Ireland example, I would say that the following would are important points to consider for any binding RFC:
Consensus for a binding resolution: The impetus for a binding resolution must come from the participants in the dispute and be agreed in consensus by them. Otherwise, there will be an enormous sense of aggrievement and a feeling that outsider are enforcing resolution to a dispute that they do not understand. This view would not only be serious, and may be long-lasting, but it would in many case be quite justified.
Exhaustion of other means: This impetus should be driven by the absolute exhaustion of other modes for resolution. A binding resolution should only be adopted in the most extreme of cases, where discussion and dispute resolution has been on-going for years. It should never be entered into lightly or for the sake of convenience. In all, the decision to arrive at an binding resolution should come the absolute exasperation of all sides.
Consensus can change: Time limits on how "binding" the outcomes are are probably best. I suggest 12, 18, or 24 months are appropriate terms. Any longer would be normally excessive IMO. In the Ireland-name case, two years was long enough for views to settle to a reasonable level.
Clear, objective and mutually verifiable outcome: A vote is more likely to be suitable than a discussion. If the dispute was resolvable by discussion then it would not need a "binding" solution. A clear, single and objectively measurable outcome is necessary. Otherwise, the decision will be disputed. In the Ireland case, we used the alternate-vote system. This allowed multiple options to be voted on in terms of preference.
A mutually-agreed process in advance: A boiler plate process may not be suitable for all disputes. Different disputes have different components and no two disputes are the same. Additionally, the need for consensus among the participants to a dispute for a binding RFC, and for the consensus of participants to recognise the outcome of the RFC, mean the participants in the dispute will need to be involved in shaping the process through which the binding resolution will be arrived at. That means that no two binding RFCs will likely be identical. However, they may share common features.
Recognition that the outcome is not the "answer": There needs to be recognition that the outcome is not consensus — or the "correct" answer — but rather it is a "best we can do" to resolve a long-runing dispute for the time being. There is no benefit in running roughshod over genuine and informed views of well-intentioned editors just because they happen to be on the wrong side of the views of others (often the views of people who know less about the subject than they do).
Agreed "facts" and a voice for opposing views: Clear, understandable and mutually-agreed background info needs to be provided to outsiders in advance of inviting them to participate in the RFC. Additionally, individual participants need to be able to express their own voice. In the Ireland case, individual participants in the dispute were also able to provide their own statements on a subpage and these were able to be endorsed by other participants in the dispute ahead of the vote being opened to "outsiders". This allowed for both a commonly agreed backgrounder as well as enabling individual editors to set out their own stalls.
A legitimate authority: There is a suggestion that a process for a binding RFC could by-pass ArbCom. I would completely disagree. There needs to be an authority to back up the decision. That authority needs legitimacy and absolute authority to enforce what will. in effect, be an arbitrary decision. The only body that can effectively and legitimately do that in all circumstances is, IMO, ArbCom. Regardless of whether ArbCom are involved or not, without an strong legitimate authority to enforce the decision, the decision won't be accepted by a consensus of editors into the future and will eventually come apart or turn into farce.
Haven't read your entire comments, but I would see this as a process that is not commonly used. A few requirements would be the use of mediation and one other DR process to have been tried and been unsuccessful at resolving the issue. As for Binding RFCs being a bad idea, well, I would suggest a test case would be the best way forward. I also note that endless discussion can drive away editors, which is pretty bad as well. As for ArbCom, I think that this should be a community process. We're the ones who deal with resolving content issues, and I think we're capable to do so in this sort of situation as well. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!22:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that binding RFCs were a bad idea. In fact, I said they have their place. However, I do believe that having an explicit procedure for binding RFCs is a bad idea. For one reason, I think it would invite binding RFCs where there would be no need for one or where one would not be a good idea. It would also, to some degree, "normalise" binding RFCs, whereas they are in, fact, "not normal" and should remain "not normal".
WRT "test cases", we already have at several "test cases". Binding RFCs already exist. I suggest that, if you are not aware of these, you should look at them and learn from them. As I wrote, the best examples for new policies and guidelines come from exiting practice. Rather than coming up with something new out of the ether, you should look at how binding RFCs work right now. The oldest example, I think, is Gdansk. We have also had Ireland and Macedonia. All three have worked successfully (in their own terms) — or as well as could be expected.
WTR to ArbCom, when you do take the trouble to read what I wrote (and I apologies again that it was so long), you'll see that I said that binding RFC need to be a community process. In fact, they need to be one that is initiated by the community in dispute according according to a process they can agree. This is the example set by binding RFCs to date and is one that has worked for them. However, an authority is needed to enforce the outcome. Again, in the examples of binding RFCs that we have to date, that has been ArbCom. --RA (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Steven, you claim that you want the community involved in a the decision making process when a no consensus is reached in RfC's, because of a lack of participation of the wider community or otherwise. Your proposal is to introduce voting so these disputes get resolved. Or sois there another solution you are thinking of? A cursory look at the proposals here and on the project page does not seem like there are any better solutions. I see a our current unworkable solution, but I see worse proposals to solve it.Curb Chain (talk) 19:06, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not raw voting, of course not. I do apologise for not creating a mock-up page as of yet (been crazy busy lately but will try today) but turning it into a vote, not exactly. We have many processes that are an evaluation of consensus that in essence resemble votes. RfA, XfD, requested moves and even this discussion are examples. But they are in fact closed per the consensus of the community. A binding content discussion woul be no different. I'll make creating the mock-up page my first priority today so you can see what I mean. Regards, StevenZhangJoin the DR army!21:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Binding content discussions. Section break
Support the idea of binding RFCs. Some disputes, specifically those with strong arguments and substantial amount of supporters on both sides, can last forever and even make people quit editing. Though I would note, that the particular attention should be given to making the wording of request content-oriented, as there are just too many examples of RFCs that fail to help dispute resolution just because the question doesn't fairly represent the issue. Given the binding result, this type of RFC should be subject to a very careful choice of wording. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 01:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. On first glance this sounds too complicated. There are thousands of content disputes. I think people want quick comments first from admins and arbitrators (we need a lot more of both) on the article talk page. See my userboxes for more info:
This idea for binding content discussions is one proposal of various content dispute arbitration methods. It should be used only after other simpler feedback from admins and arbitrators. Right now admins and arbitrators don't officially comment on content. They should be summoned right away. And they should comment directly on the article talk page. See: User:Timeshifter/Unresolved content disputes. Editors are leaving because of this. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yah, this is kind of the crux. Content discussions are binding (or should be), in the sense that you shouldn't be editing against the consensus as revealed in those discussions. And if it's not clear what consensus has been revealed in those discussions, then you need an admin to come and sort it out, say what the result it, and make sure it's enforced. Unfortunately, admins are fairly unwilling to do this in the case of ordinary (non-process) page-content discussions, I think because of two strands of muddled thinking: (1) "The fact that there's still disagreement show's that there can't be consensus." Nonsense, of course, since our definition of consensus does not require unanimity; and this is clearly seen when admins close the process discussions (Afd, RM, ...) (2) "Admins are not supposed to decide content disputes." Well they're not supposed to impose their own opinions on content; but that's no reason why they shouldn't assess the result of content-related discussions - as of course they do every day at xfD and RM, which are also content discussions, just a particular type thereof.--Kotniski (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
...but.... the way discussions are closed at the moment is unsatisfactory, particularly for debates about article wording, where multiple possibilities exist. I mean, it works all right for most simple everyday RMs etc., but not for long, complex or fraught debates. Here we need the admin to act not as a one-person jury ("I've looked at the discussion and have decided this"), but someone who can possibly mediate a bit so as to focus the discussion, possibly suggest compromise solutions, or in any case talk to the participants a bit just to be sure he's noted and understood all the arguments and counterarguments correctly. And there doesn't have to be just one admin doing this, either. --Kotniski (talk) 12:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Admins do not have any authority to decide content disputes. And they should not have that authority except as part of a process we set up for settling content disputes. But their opinions and experience are valuable, and admins should be summoned much sooner concerning content disputes. And it should be quick, and above all, done on the article talk page. Oftentimes editors don't understand that WP:NPOV is not necessarily implemented by picking one description of the facts, but by pointing out all significant viewpoints. Admins can explain this quickly, and editors are less likely to believe it is wikilawyering since the admin is new to the discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe admins do have the authority to decide content disputes (as they do regularly at AfD and RM, which are particular types of content dispute; as well as at RfCs, sometimes, when asked). We don't need to set up a new process; we just have to get people into the habit of asking admins to help reach a settlement when the editors themselves can't work out what they've decided (of course, in most cases this won't be necessary), and admins into the habit of responding positively to such requests, and everyone out of the mindset that "closing" a discussion must be a single God-like act without any interaction with the participants. So what I'm suggesting is fairly similar to what you're suggesting - summon an admin for help in resolving the dispute, but the reason it's useful for it to be an admin rather than any other experienced editor is that admins have the authority (and should be given more of it) to take firm action against those who continue to disrupt the process or edit against consensus.--Kotniski (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Admins should absolutely not be given that authority. It goes against a core belief in Wikipedia that goes all the way back to the dispute between Jimbo Wales and Larry Sanger concerning "experts." AfDs and RMs are not content disputes. One is about deleting an article. One is about changing the name of articles. Neither decide the content of articles. WP:Edit warring is one of the most disruptive of the guidelines because admins are using it arbitrarily to decide content disputes. It should be used first as a warning by an admin, and not used first as a block. Many editors leave Wikipedia due to such abuse by admins who give blocks without warning from an admin. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sure, blocks should be used only as a last resort. But it's nonsense to suggest that having admins "decide" RMs and AfDs is fine, while having them decide "content disputes" is fundamentally wrong. This is the sort of prevalent muddled thinking I refer to above. RMs and AfDs are simply particular types of content dispute - in the first case about that part of the content of an article that goes above the top line, and in the second case about whether to include the whole content of a given article in the encyclopedia. If other content disputes can't be decided by adjudged consensus, then they'll end up being decided by edit-warring, which is contrary to our fundamental principles.--Kotniski (talk) 09:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am against single admins making any content decisions. AfDs aren't decided by a single admin. RMs aren't decided by a single admin. They are closing a discussion made by a group of people. If you read my proposal linked from my userbox higher up you will see that at the very end of the process a group of people make content decisions. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Single admins closing discussions made by a group of people" is exactly what I'm suggesting should happen, and sometimes does happen, for discussions about page content.--Kotniski (talk) 14:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I agree, but the arbitrators should act as a final court of appeal, not of first instance. So first an admin tries to assess the consensus, then (possibly) someone will challenge that decision and take it to (say) the admins' noticeboard, and then finally if the matter is still disputed it should go to ArbCom. I've been saying this sort of thing ever since I started commenting on dispute resolution (which I started doing when I saw first hand how broken the present system is). Basically what's wrong with the system as it is is that it encourages and foments drama and disruption and endless fruitless debate, when it should be stamping on them hard, and focus on getting real resolutions to real problems in real time.--Kotniski (talk) 17:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An admin is no better at assessing "consensus" than anybody else. So I don't want admins assessing consensus more than anybody else. As in Animal Farm: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". Go stamp on somebody else hard, but not on Wikipedia. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:41, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So who do you think should be assessing consensus? I hardly think ArbCom will have time to consider every AfD, RM and disputed RfC, unless we elect about 100 arbitrators and they divide into subcommittees or something. (Of course we have non-admin closure too, but custom has it that this is only for clear-cut cases - and that admins are asked to review such closures if they're disputed.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:17, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@TimeShifter, we need to work within the options we have at present. ArbCom had stated over and over that they will not intervene in clear cut content disputes, and are reluctant to comment in regular discussions due to the fact they likely would have to recuse if an issue over conduct came to ArbCom. Admins assess consensus on many issues, such as XfD, RM etc. Bureaucrats assess RfAs. Non-admins can close some clear cut discussions as well. I decided on this approach because the ideas of content committees have been shot down in the past repeatedly, and this seems the best option to address intractable content disputes by the community. Set up a structured discussion with clear possible outcomes, users add material supporting X or Y, and members of the community opine on the discussions. After a period of time, three admins evaluate the consensus and close the discussion. Having three closers is key here. It reduces the possibility for bad closes (three opinions instead of one). I'll work on that mock-up for you all to see. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!21:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While certainly voting is not evil, I do think that it shouldn't be used to resolve content disputes. As things are, we've got three stages in an attempt to reach a consensus. 1. We start on the article page, and try to talk things out. 2. We invite uninvolved editors in in an RFC, 3. As a last resort, we ask Arb Com to talk it out. Arb Com doesn't rule on the page itself, but on user behavior. In all of these cases, there is an attempt to reach a flexible consensus.
Binding RFCs won't do that; you'll make winners and losers, you'd force people to take sides, you invite Wikilawyering, and unless but there's a very clear vote on wording, you're still going to have further arguments over the nature of the vote, only now with the winners being self-righteous and the losers pissed off. Further support or oppose vote cast by a drive-by-editor will have the same weight as the contributions of an editor who takes a great deal of time attempting to reach a compromise. (And the same weight as all the text posted by a single filibuster whose posts make up 95% of the entire discussion, but I'm not sure the benefit from that is worth the detriment of downplaying attempts to reach a consensus.)
Generally, I think most users are reasonable, although some can have Achilles' heels where there's an issue they particularly care about (this seems to be the particular case with ethnically based conflicts), but even Arbcom tries only to make sure that they remain civil and contribute fair, verifiable information. Even if it takes awhile, a consensus is reached eventually, and can be changed when it needs to be. Wikipedia is not a race. --Quintucket (talk) 22:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it's just me, but I feel that many of the users voting oppose here may not to understand the proposal, so let me make a few comments here.
The first point is that this would be a last resort dispute resolution method, reserved for issues that have failed both mediation and other forms of low level dispute resolution, and where conduct is not a primary issue. It's not something that would be used often at all.
Some here have commented that the style would allow for !voting by disinterested people. Isn't that the whole point? If we only allow comments by people involved in the dispute, we get nowhere, otherwise the dispute would have been resolved without requiring a binding discussion. I also think a watchlist notice would aid in this.
Some have commented that it will create a win/lose situation for some. Unfortunately, it may have to come to that. The alternative is that discussion continues until the heat death of the universe, and the person who digs their heels in the hardest wins, the rest leave exasperated, and after all that's what we're trying to fix, editor retention. I would much rather a structured discussion based on policy decide outcomes of deadlocked content disputes (generally, naming disputes) rather than the former.
I also note that none of you have seen the proposed structure of this process. That's partly my fault, but assuming that it will look like a normal RFC is incorrect. I also note that few here actively participate in dispute resolution. It is true that most users are reasonable, and most issues can be resolved through mediation, but some cannot, and that's what this process would be for, when all else fails.
If there's no clear consensus as a result of a binding content discussion, then the status quo would remain. I don't see a 51% consensus being enacted. Note the closing of a discussion by three, minimising the chances for bad decisions that have possibly occured in past binding discussions. Note, bad != everyone doesn't agree.
Wikilawyering is always a factor in any discussion, but take the Pro-life/Pro-choice vs Abortion-rights/Anti-abortion titles. There would be a clear outline of what issue the binding RFC is to address, and users would present evidence to back up why outcome X vs Outcome Y is appropriate (policy, backed up by other info). For example, if an argument was made for common name usage, a demonstration of how common it is, and so on. After this, editors would partake in an AFD style discussion, commenting on which they prefer and why based on the information presented, eg, "I prefer X as is the common name as demonstrated in Y sources" or something like that.
All in all, binding discussions of content should indeed be the exception to the norm, but part of the problem in the past has been a lack of a unified method to hold such a discussion. That's what my proposal is about, bringing structure to these discussions, limiting long-term disruption in intractible disputes. Locking down content isn't a great idea, but it's better than endless heated discussions over X versus Y, which people end up leaving over. That's my opinion, and is the reason I made this proposal. Try it. I don't see any harm in a test case. If it flops, hey, at least we know it doesn't work. If it does, well that's great. But I feel it's a viable solution to a real problem. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!04:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Steven, I appreciate that you are well-meaning here but, rather than supposing that those who oppose the proposal do not understand it, I suggest you could consider another possibility: you may not be as conscious of the issues involved in a binding RFC as you may believe you are.
First, I think you need to acknowledge that binding RFCs already exist. You seem to believe that they do not - and that this is an original idea that merits "trying out" to see if it works. In fact, we have had several examples of binding RFCs. I've linked to some above. I think you should first begin by looking at those examples, see how they came about, if they resolved the dispute and the issue affecting editors involved.
Some of those who oppose the proposal here (myself included) do so because of our experience with binding RFCs in the past. Here is an important point: it is a policy on binding RFCs that is being opposed, not bindings RFCs. Binding RFCs have their place. The question is would anyone who has been involved in resolving a dispute through a binding RFC believe that they should be a part of the stated toolset of dispute resolution? Certainly, I do not.
Their place to date has been under WP:IAR and with good reason (not least of which is because every one is different). In contrast, an explicit policy ("a unified method") would run counter, I believe, to the very reasons they have worked in the few examples that we have. Let them happen on a case-by-case basis where there is a strong consensus and an over-riding reason to have them. But "legislating" for them, or prescribing how they should happen, is not a good idea IMO. --RA (talk) 10:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How do you distinguish "binding" RfCs from "non-binding" RfCs? What on earth is the point of having a discussion that leads to a result which is not then binding (i.e. enforceable)? If consensus is not binding, then what is? The only answers I can think of are (a) the decision is made by the best edit-warriors; (b) any sufficiently bloody-minded editor can block any change to the status quo; (c) decisions are made randomly, by admins locking a page in some version. It's not hard to see why any of these three solutions would be worse than having decisions made by (qualified) consensus. Does someone have any other alternative? (And don't say "keep discussing until you reach a solution that everyone can accept", since we know that's not always possible or even desirable, and is effectively just the same as my (b).)--Kotniski (talk) 10:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"If consensus is not binding, then what is?" - Consensus isn't binding by it's very nature. It is consensual. That's the point. If there was consensus then there would be no need for a binding RFC. You are confusing democracy (which Wikipedia is not) with consensus.
In the cases of binding RFCs that I pointed to, there was no consensus. And there was no hope of consensus ever being reached. So, instead, in stark contrast to normal practice (see WP:IAR), we decided things by democracy (or at least we did in two cases). The RFCs were closed with a decision one way the another, and deemed to be absolutely binding, regardless of whether it attained consensus of not. Even regardless of whether consensus changed or was later reached! In fact, the kibosh was put on all further discussion of the matter.
The point that I am making is that processes of these kind fit under WP:IAR (as they are right now). Codifying them into policy would invite POV pushing and gaming and provide a disincentive to reaching agreement by consensus. People would reach for it too early, when in fact it needs to be the very last option. Something you never even imagined would be an option.
Even more importantly, a policy would try to fit binding RFCs to a single codified procedure. In contrast, in each of the examples that we have of binding RFCs, a different procedure was used in each case. Crucially, this was one that was agreed in consensus by the community in dispute according to the needs of resolving their particular dispute. Bindings RFCs are right at the fringe of dispute resolution and therefore straight-racketing them according to one policy, devised out of the ether, is not a good idea. The process needs enormous consensus from the community in conflict (and so needs to come from them), otherwise the result will lack legitimacy. --RA (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be confusing consensus with unanimity (as someone always does when these matters are discussed). In the sense in which it is used on Wikipedia, consensus does not have to mean unanimity, and therefore not everyone needs to have consented to it, and therefore some people might still want to thwart the decision made, and therefore someone has to stop them from doing so, otherwise the decision would not in fact be made, and the whole idea that our decisions are made by "consensus" would be a myth. Sometimes it eventually comes down to something resembling a majority vote (quite often, in fact), although we sometimes require more than 51% to change something, and we don't look only at numbers. And sometimes we really do have to stop further discussion of a matter, let it stay settled for a certain period, so that people can get on with other important things. (But I agree with you that there can't be a one-size-fits-all procedure for all types of disputes; and that we don't want people to seek enforced resolution of a disagreement too quickly - though too slowly is also bad, as some matters end up consuming vastly excessive amounts of editorial time and attention.) --Kotniski (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"You seem to be confusing consensus with unanimity (as someone always does when these matters are discussed)." - No. I'm not. Indeed, I took the trouble of linking to a dictionary defintion of consensus so that there should there be no such misunderstanding.
I am talking about situations where there is no widespread agreement. There may be two or more very divided, evenly numbered, and equally "right" divisions in opinion. Those are the situations in which we have used binding RFCs to date. --RA (talk) 15:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the ones you're thinking of, perhaps. But there are RfCs every day, some of which produce more or less conclusive results - it would hardly be respectful to those taking part in those discussionsg to tell them that their opinions count for nothing in the face of a determined edit-warrior or two. --Kotniski (talk) 17:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I whole heatedly agree with that! I'm shocked at how little action comes out of some RFCs. I'm thinking of RFC/Us in particular but the same can be said for content RFCs. Often, even when there is consensus, nothing happens. Another problem is arriving at consensus in some RFC (again I'm thinking of RFC/U, in particular). The structure of some RFCs often does not lead to action.
However, I would very strongly contrast that problem with a new policy on "binding RFCs". I would see the current problem as a weakness in the current RFC procedures that needs to be addressed. I would wholeheartedly support a review of those weaknesses and to improve the current system. --RA (talk) 17:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Binding content discussions. Section break 2
Comment: Perhaps it is helpful if an extension of the Palestinian comments above could be considered. It seems what is really wanted here is something a bit different than an RFC. It seems it's like arbitration plus dispute resolution, beginning with an RFC-like process. What seems to be the main point is the cessation of edit warring and disruptions. I think what is sorely needed is admins and other active editors who care enough to meet the urgent challenges, not some weird new process. For example, something of an orphan article can flare up within hours; in that case, no one else wants to look at it because it may be two or three editors disagreeing. Do two or three editors deserve to be ignored because they are so few? No, but that is what happens and then not even an RFC is successful. It's not a party when no one shows up! Then on the other hand you have, as so many have commented, the biggest blow-hard winning a one-sided argument.--Djathinkimacowboy12:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in its current/stated form. I see no problem with all RfCs being binding for a set period of time, but creating a discussion where a policy-level enforcement is to be binding forever is problematic. Can ArbCom overturn this? Jimbo? Who really decides? What happens if circumstances change? It seems to me that an ArbCom-level board would best sort these kinds of problems out. Buffs (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You may have missed it, but I didn't say that results of binding RFCs would be binding forever. It clearly outlines that it would be for a period of time, and if real world changes occured, the outcome could be dissolved. Arbcom-style committees for deciding on content has been shot down repeatedly in the past, thus the idea for a community based process to do so. (I haven't ignored other comments, just rather busy and I want to give them decent replies, at this point I don't have the time to give well thought replies to these comments. Cheers. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!22:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your essentially asking for a certain version of an article be kept. This is just another form of page protection. And your asking editors to vote on the position they like best. This goes against the core base of Wikipedia.Curb Chain (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am not. This sort of thing I see mostly utliized in naming disputes, but it could also be used in other disputes with a small scope. There would not be any X vs Y version of the whole article discussions. As for such a binding RFC being contrary to the core principles of Wikipedia, I would say that we need to consider that discussions where editors dig their heels in until their opposition gives up is not how we want things to go around here. At times, consensus = who gives up last. People leave over this. I hope this process puts a stop to that. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but so are others. Have a good day. StevenZhangJoin the DR army!20:28, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But then you are instituting voting. RfCs have little participation. That is a fact of life. One person proposals a side of a position. There's no consensus or supporters of this single person's opinion. Too bad.Curb Chain (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The current system, while still delivering some good, simply doesn't live up to the show. Increasingly it is getting difficult to get participants into discussions to have an argument/conversation that leads to a visible consensus. And, now wonder discussions are being closed after long-drawn silence as no-consensus, with issues remain unresolved. In case of POVs the stalemate can become silly, even harmful. Also consider that the other option - DR is too heavy for many of those cases. Aditya(talk • contribs)15:06, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose RfCs are a consensus-based mechanism. When that breaks down, things move to ArbCom. I'd rather trust elected Arbitrators to decide contentious issues, rather than having a binding RfC, in which the quality of the closers is randowm & unknown, and there is no accountability -- especially considering how difficult it is to get someone desysoped for anything except the worst possible offense. If Arbitrators don't perform as expected, we don't vote for them next time around, if the closer of a binding RfC abuses the position, what's the mechanism for removing them from that position in the future? Effectively, there is none. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Eeh, but my experience of arbitrators is that they're self-satisfied know-it-alls with an exaggerated sense of their own infallibility and of the inferiority of all other forms of human life (no offence). They reach their decisions through a private gossipy mailing list, and are not interested in amending them (except through a long and tortuous process) when mistakes are pointed out. And you can't vote them out - you'll be outnumbered by those who just vote the established arbs back in every time (most voters won't have been paying much attention to the details of any decisions, any more than real-life voters pay attention to the details of the laws that their electees pass). So in practice, ArbCom is no more accountable - less, I would say - than admins (most of whom are at least prepared to talk to editors and explain and perhaps even modify their decisions). But in any case, given there isn't any perfect solution, and that ArbCom has limited capacity, and that two (or three) instances of wise but possibly fallacious judgment are better than one, it seems clear to me that it should go (1) admin decides; (2) possible appeal to other admins; (3) possible appeal to ArbCom. (And if the original admin was way out of line - I mean, really incompetently wrong - ArbCom could then consider that admin's future as well as the issue itself.)--Kotniski (talk) 14:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support with changes I agree that situations (Israel settlements, Ireland naming, Taiwan) were pointed in which the discussion turned or was in danger of turning intractible. In these discussions the consensus approach has a hard time yielding results. Heavily structuring these discussions might solve this by stronger involvement of neutral parties which guide the discussion. Furthermore, by ensuring all the elements are presented in a structured way this would prevent or at least hamper people repeatedly reintroducing arguments or performing other non-constructive discussions. However, I do not see why this should be in the form of lawyer-like 'binding RfC' system. If the consensus system has broken down because of user behavior, ArbCom should be sufficient. If the consensus system yields no results because of the many aspects of the discussion, heavily structuring the debate would suffice. If the consensus system yields no result because of conflicting sources, a voting system or binding RfC proces should be avoided and a way should be found that addresses the multiple truths. This might be hard in the case of naming disputes, but I am confident that a structured debate would in the end yield acceptable results (see Talk:Republic_of_China). A binding RfC process, on the other hand, would be too lawyerous. Jhschreurs (talk) 09:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at this time There doesn't seem to be a significant demand for this type of dispute resolution, as there are alternatives such as administrators' noticeboard, third opinion, regular request for comments, mediation, etc. Based on the proposal, it appears that it may take a lengthy amount of time for the entire process: certifying, discussing then, having 3 editors make a binding decision - if a dispute is lengthy, overlapping and confusing, it will take quite awhile to decipher and filter through the problems for each viewer. I understand that a structured RfC will make it easier to read but, like any other dispute resolution form it takes some time to familiarize and understand the process. Whenaxisabout | talk02:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As a user who was banned by the community in July 2007 in just 5 hours 11 mins for being a "POV pusher and harasser", I agree that dispute resolution needs to be improved. But I think that it needs more discussion, in order to ensure that it addresses certain issues. Based on my own experience, I feel that existing dispute resolution discussions tend to be "free-for-alls", full of acusations and rhetoric. Here is what I believe needs to be addressed.
All statements must include diffs. In my case, a few editors noted that they were "having a hard time finding a single shred of evidence against" me. If I am a "POV-warrior", it will be trivial to include several diffs. Despite an editor requesting whether "anyone here provide a single diff", none were forthcoming.
Some editors noted there was no "due process". Such a process must be fair and timely. One of the reasons the nominator gave for discontinuing Community Bans, was that mine was an "amazing example .. five hours and eleven minutes [..] who finds that rather unfair"[10]
Due process must include consideration of points made. For example, during the little time I had before being banned, I had expressed my concern that the person I was alledged to have harrassed, was actually a sockpuppet. At least one editor commented that there as some "serious explaining to do". Subsequently, it was confirmed that the editor I was supposed to have harassed, was indeed a sockpuppet (one of at least 4) that were being used abusively.[11] At the time, my comment was effectively ignored, as has been my attempted to get any Admin to assess my concerns, subsequently.
I believe that my case could have been resolved more efficiently if there had been due process, that included a couple of impartial Admins (or whatever). --Iantresman (talk) 18:11, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Commentary: It seems no one should be needed to assess whether consensus exists or not. Problems begin after a "well-sort-of" consensus is approached, but still has dissenters. I don't think admins are listening to the dissents, and I see too many admins simply excusing bad editorial behaviour. That is, when admins bother pay any attention to a problem at all. I had a problem with an article and got echoing silence. Why not just let it all keep failing that way! What I'd love to see is admins being taken to task for failing to help in the first place. Add to that some binding enforcement to keep editors from posing as admins, (which I have seen from time to time).--Djathinkimacowboy22:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BRD is the mechanism when to evoke when you have a problem and get echoing silence. This is not a failure. This is actually successful in the 8 years? it has been in existence.Curb Chain (talk) 23:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hear hear. I am familiar with one particular editor who, (a) it was acknowledged, was given "leeway", ie. break the rules with impunity, and then I was penalized for complaining "ie. Wikilawyering". (b) When the editor complained that they should be given more freedom to "fight", when I responded that that wasn't the Wikipedia way, I was given a ban for harassing them. (c) I've had an Arbitrator endorse the editor's incivility towards me (d) And when the editor claimed to be a professor, when in fact they were a student, there was no criticism, and another editor continued with the pretence sometime later.
Sometimes I think it would be useful to raise issues anonymously, so the facts can be assessed without the personalities. --Iantresman (talk) 00:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC) (Original posting date)[reply]
Note to Curb Chain (talk·contribs) (a) "you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors"[12] (b) I assume this was in error, as you gave no explanation in your edit summary,[13] and you did not notify me of your reason. I've restored my comment, which I feel is relevant to the ongoing discussions. --Iantresman (talk) 10:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this is a good proposal, and a needed part of the process. The thing is, we already sometimes have Binding RfCs, it's just that it isn't particularly obvious--in effect, many RfCs that occur after an Arbitration decision are binding RfC's, because an uninvolved admin can easily argue that raising the same topic another time in spite of the RfC is tendentious editing in violation of the sanctions (see, for example, this RfC closeonTalk:Senkaku Islands regarding the naming of that article). I'd love for us to have this process available as an intermediate step between mediation and arbitration, especially in cases where the behavior of participants isn't actually the main problem. While I don't know much about the details, isn't it possible that Tree shaping could have been solved by this approach? I understand the concerns above that binding RfCs can actually increase tensions/battleground mentality in some cases. But having no means whatsoever seems to me to be actually worse. Furthermore, it the current state of affairs gives enormous power to those who have the ability to control their own tongues while maintaining an entrenched position; they may be able to outlast the more neutral editors, and sometimes even push them into outbursts that show up as "behavioral problems" and thus lead to sanctions. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as written. Since it has come down to a vote, I'll register my opposition for the reasons stated here and on the proposal's talk page. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 14:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Something needs to be done. More articles and less editors will mean many lower-quality articles unless content disputes are resolved more efficiently in a less time-consuming and abusive way.
I'm one who is currently about to leave (possibly not for good) because we just don't have a system in place for making sensible editors' consensus decisions actually happen against the opposition of the drama queens, the edit-warriors and the "nothing must ever change" brigade. Too much of a waste of my time and nerves staying around here.--Kotniski (talk) 23:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bold moves that end up as de facto successful
Several times I've seen a controversial page move performed without prior discussion. WP:RM says that potentially controversial moves should be discussed first. If there's no prior discussion, WP:BRD suggests that moving the page back and initiating a discussion is the right approach, but when I did that at Campaign for "santorum" neologism it was promptly moved again, then moved back, and then move-protected because of the move edit war. I would prefer it if there were a policy-based argument that said something like: "if a move is made and is regarded as controversial, it should be reversed and a discussion opened at WP:RM, and should not be moved again without consensus". Ideally this should also allow a request for move protection to be made, with the caveat that the protecting admin should always move it back to the original version. I'm aware of the wrong version arguments, and generally agree with them, but I think there's a case to be made for treating the name a little more conservatively. The problem with the current approach is that WP:RM does not agree to a move unless there is a clear consensus to the move, so a controversial move can be done successfully if the move is made and then taken to WP:RM. This is an incentive to bypass discussion, so I think our approach needs to be changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What should happen if the bold move isn't noticed for a long time? This actually happened to yoghurt, and they've been arguing over the "h" ever since. WP:ENGVAR says to go to the "original" version. Some people say that it started without the h, so it should be moved back. Others argue that it's had the h for longer and is now "established" at the new title. Title disputes are messy; the wrong version helps quell the edit war as fast as possible, without having to figure out what to do in some bizarre corner-case like yoghurt. I do agree that someone pushing something through by being the more obnoxious party to the dispute is distasteful, but I just don't think there's any general way to solve that problem. --NYKevin @370, i.e. 07:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that long delays are problematic, but would it actually be helpful in a case like that if the policy were clear -- it should go back to the original version until there is consensus? There may not be a general way to solve the problem, as you say, but I think this might help. Failing that, perhaps a time limit of a week could be suggested. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Though it doesn't say exactly what you're looking for because it's about closing requested moves, so the timing if after the move has been initiated, note that at WP:RM/CI we have the related instruction: "However, sometimes a requested move is filed in response to a recent move from a long existing name that cannot be undone without administrative help. Therefore, if the closer feels that no consensus has been reached, they may move the article back to the most recent stable name. If the most recent stable name is itself a matter of dispute, closers are expected to use their own judgment in determining the proper destination."--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't realized that; that's pretty much what I was looking for. How about changing those instructions to say the closer "should" (or perhaps "usually should") move the article back? That would address it. I would also suggest adding some text to WP:RM that makes this clear to editors going there in response to a controversial move. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When I added in the language (in slightly different form) at the instruction guideline I remember there had been a few discussions at WT:RM about these types of moves being a problem, even with users doing the move and then a second edit to the redirect to make sure that only an admin had the ability to make the move back. You might want to trawl the archives a bit to see the various dicussions and bring up proposed changes there.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Two points:
BRD doesn't suggest moving the page back as any sort of necessary or even desirable action. "The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones. The first person to start a discussion is the person who is best following BRD." The "R" step is strictly optional, and it's kinder to the database to skip it, especially if there's a chance that the new name will be adopted. You don't need to reverse a page move to be able to discuss it at RM.
ENGVAR is irrelevant; you should be following the actual policy on this point, which is at WP:TITLECHANGES. Although it generally takes a very conservative approach, it does not authorize reverting page moves during discussions. Neither the article titles policy nor RM actually endorse the sort of "first-mover advantage" that you are worrying about. The folks at RM are actually smart enough to figure out whether the current name is the name described as the no-consensus default at AT. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, IIRC it was on ANI a few weeks ago (and was closed without result as extremely lame). There's still going to be some residual grumbling for a while, though (e.g. right now they're arguing over which spelling(s) to mention in the lead). --NYKevin @912, i.e. 20:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly support this in principle. It’s not right that an editor or editors should have to go through a formal RM procedure to revert a unilateral bold move, and this can happen if technical difficulties prevent a revert without admin support (e.g. at Shishapangma) or if the bold mover repeatedly moves without discussing. The burden should be on the mover. Also, a bold move can be followed by a filibuster to prevent the page being moved back. Having a policy or guideline that says contested moves should be reverted, then discussed, would help ensure that the editor in favor of the move provides convincing reasons for the move. Perhaps it could be implemented by adding a statement in the Wikipedia:Moving a page instructions along the lines of “If an editor questions a move, the page should be moved back to its previous title and the merits of the possible titles should be discussed.”--Wikimedes (talk) 21:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User preference to automaticlly use https
I think that there should be a user preference to automatically use the secure server (https) when logged in. I like to use it but I find it a pain to always type in https and reload the page. It would really help a lot of people if there was user preference like that. P.S. Is this the appropriate place or is technical the appropriate place? Ramaksoud2000(talk to me)02:08, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not use images or templates in your signature; see WP:SIG for details. Please also go back and remove the template from any pages you've already "signed" with it. Thanks.
As for your question, there is no preference, and it would be somewhat insecure as you would have to be logged in to the insecure http site for the preference to take effect. If you're using Firefox, look into HTTPS Everywhere. Anomie⚔03:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be a good idea to have a preference or some capability such as this. While I primarily use Firefox and will look into this HTTPS Everywhere extension, there are times I have to use computers that only can be used with Internet Explorer. On a similar note, with the https site up and running at the same URL as the http site, is there a reason to keep the http site at all? –Grondemar04:08, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
PHP provides a rapid and simple solution to check for and redirect to https for any page visited without its use (i.e. if visiting a page at http... that can be visited at https..., the redirect kicks in). Would be a trivial fix. fredgandt02:56, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're not thinking of the readers. They typically don't log in or even have accounts. They (mostly) don't benefit from HTTPS, but it does slow them down at least a little; if they lack broadband it could be a deal-breaker. The unsecure server will be around for a while, I'm afraid. --NYKevin @210, i.e. 04:02, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No please you don't know what all pain is behind the ssl protocol. Feature which point login page as default to https, then in case users needed, it would have option to switch back to port 80 would make sense. But redirecting all pages to https is really to much load for our poor squid and apaches. What's wrong on http? Most of people who use wikipedia only read it, so it makes a lot of sense that http should be a default type of connection, most of users should use. Re secure.wikimedia I think that best thing we could do with that, is disabling it permanently, by redirecting it to https://sitename.wiki[pm]edia.org Petrb (talk) 13:11, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Adding rollback edits to your watchlist
I propose an option in "My Preferences" to add pages you rollback to your watchlist. I like to watch pages I have rollbacked (at least for a short while) and I have to manually add them to my watchlist each time. I raised this point here last year but I got no response. —Bruce1eetalk10:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OTOH, the developers would probably want to see consensus that the feature is actually wanted by the community (rather than just a few users) before spending time on it. Anomie⚔17:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Devs already discussed this in mediazilla:4488 but nothing was implemented so far.
Meanwhile you can add this code to your common.js (for all skins except Standard Classic, Cologne Blue & Nostalgia).
I added the above to my vector.js and cleared my browser cache, but it's not working for me. Does this work with the vector skin? You say it doesn't work with Standard – what is Standard? —Bruce1eetalk06:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The code above works only if use normal [rollback] links and then taken to the page with Rollback-success message. It will not work with some other "rollback" types (Twinkle? Popups?). In particular, it's not compatible with the gadget "after rolling back an edit, automatically open the contributions of the user rolled back" (mw:MediaWiki:Gadget-modrollback.js). — AlexSm17:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am using the standard rollback button and I get the "Action complete" screen, but the article is not watchlisted. I have Twinkle enabled but I don't use the Twinkle rollback because it is too slow for me. And I don't have the "After rolling back an edit, automatically open the contributions of the user rolled back" gadget ticked. I don't know why this js is not working for me. —Bruce1eetalk06:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In case that script is executing too early you can try this instead:
If this doesn't help then on the rollback page you could try to open JavaScript Console in Chrome (Ctrl-J) and then on "console" tab excute some statements to find what the issue is:
Hi. I'm Addihockey10, and I'm pretty active on ACC. If you don't know what that is, we review account requests from blocked users or users who can't create the account themselves for whatever reason. I'm going to get straight to the point, sometimes we get requests like "JimBob77" and there is an existing account named "JimBob76". We think it might be the same guy, and it probably is, but we're a little blind as we have no way to confirm it is in fact JimBob76 for password reset closes. I'd like to propose a feature where we can crosscheck the e-mail that the user submitted in the ACC request to the e-mail registered in the database for JimBob76. In order to comply with the privacy policy, we're only requesting that it returns "E-mail match" or "E-mail does not match". Ideally, these are the two options that could work.
1. Make a special page only available to accountcreators where you can insert the e-mail of the request and it'll return whether it matches or not. This will be logged.
2. Make a page where the ACC tool can automatically submit an e-mail check request if there is a similar account (automatically determined by the tool), and returns whether it matches or not. This shouldn't have to be logged, as a log will probably be available for an extended period of time in the ACC tool.
I believe that option 1 is more privacy-oriented as it doesn't automatically check, say a popular username is similar we would just create and we don't need to perform the e-mail check. --Addihockey10e-mail06:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh god, there's so many issues As it currently stands, there is a small community of people who deal with ACC requests. People in this community fall into three classes: non-admin users who do not have the accountcreator flag, non-admin users who do have the accountcreator flag, and admins (who don't need the accountcreator flag because the are admins). In addition, there's checkusers, but let's just forget about them for a minute. As currently proposed, this would be something that would be useful for people active in the ACC process in all three classes of users just outlined.
If this were successful, which users would be affected? Those active in ACC? That would require a separate flag (ACC email check or something). If you go for accountcreators and admins, you have the issue of restricting it simply to admins who are active in ACC. Do we want to do that? I mean, it's procedurally easy enough for admins to apply to have ACC tool access an they'd probably get it, so they'd get access to this tool.
What's to stop a malicious admins (and/or accountcreators) from using this to link existing Wikipedia accounts to email addresses of users without their consent? Someone pisses you off on Foundation-L, and they have some plausible deniability thing going on between their Wikipedia identity and the email address they contribute to Wikimedia mailing lists to. Or you just want to out someone. This is a powder keg waiting to explode. This is basically giving "CheckUser-lite" in the hands of people who haven't identified to the Wikimedia Foundation (i.e. admins or even accountcreators). Some people will rightfully find that proposition terrifying.
Those are just concerns that come from an initial quick think about it. I'm sure if I thought about it some more, I'd find more possible scenarios that would lead to doubleplusbad outcomes. —Tom Morris (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the users affected would be just the accountcreators group. I'm not sure if there are any non-ACC accountcreators, but if so, that'll be an issue we could easily fix. This won't be given to the admin rights, no. We could just give the users who are active and trusted in ACC the accountcreator right, and that'll be closed. Again, we could perhaps somehow set it up that it would only accept a e-mail request from ACC, but only if the request handler opts into that. This will be logged of course, in the extremely rare case of abuse (we keep our ducks in line at ACC). I don't know of anybody at ACC who would abuse this tool. I think you misunderstood a little bit - it's not comparing the e-mail to all the other users, but rather to the similar user of the request you are handling. You can't just pop the e-mail of your e-mail contact and find their wikipedia account (if they have one). --Addihockey10e-mail01:44, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose does not adhere to the privacy policy nor the access to nonpublic data policy, as it gives access to nonpublic data (doesn't matter how limited or restricted that access is: it's still there) to users who are not identified to the WMF. Additionally, the argument for doing this seems weak: far better to enter discourse with "JimBob77" to establish whether he was indeed "JimBob76" (if for whatever reason you need to establish that...), rather than violating users' privacy for such a minor issue. Further to this, it seems unlikely to me that a user with email enabled on their original account would have a valid reason for requesting a new account if they are still using the same email and (pretty much) the same username: we have a password reset function. SpitfireTally-ho!01:56, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it doesn't adhere to privacy policy, we can set it so only tool admins (who must be identified) to have this right. I have sent an e-mail inquiring if it adheres to policy or not. --Addihockey10e-mail04:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you seem to be misunderstanding the structure of the privacy policies: this proposal doesn't adhere to the privacy policy because it doesn't adhere to the access to nonpublic data policy: (in general) unless you are identified to the WMF you are not allowed to access nonpublic data, and if you do so, then it's a violation of both the privacy policy and the access to nonpublic data policy. If you are identified, then you may access nonpublic data, but what and under what circumstances you can access that (and what you can do with it) is governed by the privacy policy. Therefore writing to ask whether this would violate the privacy policy is irrelevant: it obviously does, unless you meet the requirements of the access to nonpublic data policy.
Anyway, the topic of privacy policy structure aside, you'd still be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, a point I made above which you have not addressed. Additionally, I'd oppose extending the access to nonpublic data beyond the existing groups, especially for something so minor. Best, SpitfireTally-ho!15:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What he is suggesting is that only ACC tool admins, who are identified, could have access to this feature. That proposal fits within the privacy policy, though I doubt it would be allowed by WMF due to the lack of transparency around who becomes a tool admin. Ajraddatz (Talk) 01:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the intitial proposal above suggests giving the access to all users in the account creator group, not just the ACC admins; the new modified version below limits it to ACC admins only. I do concur with you on the point about who becomes an ACC admin: are they selected by the community? Presumably not. SpitfireTally-ho!01:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Agree with Spitfire, especially the last part: if a user is using the same e-mail address on both their old and new account, then presumably they have access to that e-mail account, and can recover the old account using the password reset functionality. Moreover, the use of e-mail addresses to check ownership is easily exploitable: anyone who knows the user's e-mail address (which may be public) can pretend to be them. Dcoetzee15:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes when we get similiar requests and wonder if they're the same person, we just have to use our judgement. They could've forgotten their old username, etc. etc. Also, that's not how ACC works. You have to insert the information here, and then it sends a confirmation to the e-mail. After the user confirms the request in the e-mail, we now receive the request. In other words, if we get a request that confirms that the requester owns that e-mail that comes with the request. Further to that, it seems sensible to only give this access to trusted tool admins (listed here) who are all identified to the foundation. --Addihockey10e-mail20:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After consideration, here's the modified proposal:
The request to confirm whether the e-mail and username match will only be permitted to come from the ACC toolserver. The only users who will have access to this tool, are the ACC tool admins whom are all identified to the WMF. If a non-tool admin is handling one of the requests where an e-mail check should be applied to confirm whether the old account is indeed the one registered to the ACC request, it shall be deferred to tool admins. Usage: It should only be used in unclear cases where it would be needed to determine the account owner. In the extremely rare case of abuse the Audit subcommittee or ombudsman will have access to logs of these checks. What results would be returned: It would only show "Match" or "Does not match" for results. If you insert "John_Doe" and e-mail john_doe43@gmail.com it will not return that User:John_Doe43 has that e-mail registered. This should clear things up, please poke me if you have any questions. --Addihockey10e-mail22:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The points made above questioning how much of a need there is for this and why you can't solve any issues using more conventional methods have still not been addressed. Giving more access to private details without sound and demonstrable justification is not something I'll support. Also, the point above regarding the nature of how ACC admins are appointed is a valid consideration. As a side note, the fact that the details provided on the ACC request page on how to reset passwords (very relevant to this) was outdated only compounds my feeling that this is a poor idea lacking justification. SpitfireTally-ho!01:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tool admins are appointed via a vote discussion in the ACC mailing list and a general need for them to have the tool. An additional reason why I think this is a better idea is because of this. "After running the clicktracking for about 6 hours on September 22, we estimate that about 21% of users follow through the current account creation process. This is for all languages and all Wikimedia projects. More data and project breakdowns to follow." If we add the extra step of them possibly having an account already that they can reset to this process, it'll be more likely that they won't follow through with their account. If they don't actually have that account, it's very doubtful that they'll follow through and make another ACC request. --Addihockey10e-mail05:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment about how toolserver admins are appointed only confirms my concerns. Your comment about the clicktracking confuses me. The link you posted seems to say that clicktracking was turned on for the create an account page on enwp, and estimated that 21% of users who visited it in a 6 hour period actually used it to make an account. I don't get how this is particularly relevant to either the acc project or to the number of users who request an account through acc when they have an existing account with the same email, which is really what this is about. Additionally, any research done into that would be skewed by the fact that the information provided on the acc "request an account" page regarding password resets was outdated. Please explain how your comment is relevant to this proposal. Best, SpitfireTally-ho!16:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
TeamSpeak for every wikipedia language
Hi
I have a new proposal for wikipedia
We can use TeamSpeak for improve the communication between volunteers.
What are the advantages of teamspeak (or any other type of Voice over IP) compared to communication via existing channels (IRC, email and talkpages) with regards to improving the encyclopedia? I can see none, but I can think of several disadvantages. Yoenit (talk) 13:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not a good idea; we already have quite a few people you can barely understand when they type. I don't even wanna guess what they sound like or whether they are able to speak English at all. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556> haneʼ13:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bad idea. Too slow a medium for listeners. Waste of time and effort. Discriminates against deaf people. We do want to discriminate against people who can't type coherent sentences and we don't want to listen to incoherent babbling and ranting. Dmcq (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but with modifications. Having one channel per project could easily become too large to be useful - the ideal Teamspeak capacity is about 4-8 people. I think it would be great to have a set of Teamspeak servers for each major project, perhaps organised by task or subject area (much like the existing IRC channels). I'm aware already of contributors who participate in multiparty Skype calls. The benefit of providing Teamspeak (or similar service) compared to IRC is that it provides a different mode of interaction, more asynchronous, more personal, easily done concurrently with editing activities using the keyboard and mouse, etc. etc. As for "discriminates against deaf people," I could argue it would offer new participation opportunities for blind people. Dcoetzee18:39, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no particular problems that I know of for blind people with the current arrangements. I am also very suspicious of discussions outside of WIkipedia about articles. Some short discussions might be okay but long term discussion outside makes me think of groups ganging up and doing stupid things. That already happens in Wikipedia with some projects to some extent byut at least you can track what's happening easily. Dmcq (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - First of all, I think the WMF is wary of relying on outside servers, but that doesn't have to be official. This would require a lot of maintenance and management; the current system works fine, why bother? Besides, WP:SHOUT is only made easier with something like this.Jasper Deng(talk)05:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think this bothers anyone, if he is willing to set up a channels on some external servers and manage them, then let him do that if there is a benefit from that. If you don't want, you don't need to use it. I myself thought about possibility of video conferences, which could be very useful for people who wanted to attend some wikimedia conference, but do not have a time or finances to do that. Petrb (talk) 13:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
SOPA
News outlets are reporting WP's going black on January 18. but all I see on the issue at enWP is at Wikipedia:SOPA initiative, where (as of this writing) no decision has been come to. So are the news outlets incorrect, or am I missing something? (Or perhaps they're talking about some other language Wikipedia??)—msh210℠21:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jimmy Wales seems to have made statements indicating that we're going on full blackout; I think he's just predicting how the RFC will be closed and planning accordingly. --Rschen775421:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is a bad idea just the same as the last time you raised something similar. How about actually reading the replies? If you want a chatroom and friends and shared interests and all that go and talk in a chatroom or even out with actual real friends. What you are talking about would I believe harm Wikipedia. They are a nuisance and a drain on productivity in companies and stop people getting in the groove and doing some work if not very carefully controlled so why should they be any use here? Dmcq (talk) 18:07, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Vociferously oppose. While some articles/talks have walls of text and photos that can strain the eyes, I certainly don't wanna hear a Spoken Wiki/Talkpage. — WylieCoyote (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Huch? "IRC is obsolete and deprecated. Talk is not in realtime."
we have no deadline - so realtime might not be important!
IRC is not deprecated! Show me where the IETF replaced IRC with a new RFC.
IRC is not obsolete - in what kind? yes, it doesn't have audio/video support - but nobody wanted that. There are (inofficial) extensions for avatars, gender displaying, etc... So what is obsolete? What are you missing for a chat protocol?
Hi all. Looks like a part of our community is going to force a full and global blackout of the entire English Wikipedia on Wednesday, ignoring all those that think that it is against Wikipedia main goals, that compromises neutrality, all those who voted for a soft blackout or against the full blackout. I think that we need to create a Wikipedia alternative to protect us against the seize of free knowledge under false community consensus. Best regards. emijrp (talk) 12:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're calling the poll which had the most supporters of any single question in our entire history, a "false consensus"? You're welcome to that opinion, obviously, but I doubt it's one that's widely held. Of course, your Right to Fork is as inviolate as it ever has been. Good luck with that. Happy‑melon12:59, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We long ago grew too large to expect a near-unanimous consensus on large issues like this, although our written policies still describe the site as it was in 2005 instead of describing the site as it is today. I think that the options in the vote did give all voters a chance to express their concerns. The vote for a full blackout was 763 to 104; the vote for a soft blackout was 94 to 100. I think those numbers speak for themselves in terms of which option is preferred by the majority of voters. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can use the time constructively improving http://simple.wikipedia.org which needs help more than enwiki. 16:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks, we've already got a thousand useless forks that make it a pain in the ass to research anything on the internet anymore. Don't take your marbles and go home just because the outcome wasn't what you wanted. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢19:27, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's a reason for that: Wikipedia is constantly changing, and that involves pulling a ton of data to the mirror site every day. It's expensive to host, and not technically easy. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite18:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
H.J. De Blij
Hi. I noticed the page H.J. De Blij has not been rated by the geography department. Can someone rate it? Considering he is one of the top Geographers in his field, it should recieve a high rating. Hoyle Casino Man (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're more likely to get a response from editors that can help you with this at WT:GEOGRAPHY, the talk page for the Geography WikiProject; they take care of the assessment of articles on explorers and geographers if I'm not mistaken. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢19:30, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
News that Wikipedia will be closed on January 18 2012
I heard on Radio Four today (January 17 2012) that Wikipedia will be closed for one day on Jan 18 2012. I have not seen much about this on Wikipedia - not even in the Main Page. Can I advertise that Wikipedia does more to publicise this? It could even have a tag heading frequently viewed articles telling people about this temporary closure. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All seems OK now. When I logged in just now, I did get a tag saying "Please note that in less than ten hours, Wikipedia will be closed for a day to protest against SOPA". ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's been some discussion recently over paid editing, the creation of a Wikiproject addressing this and the proposal of another, and so forth. Jimbo recently talked to Bell Pottinger (described here). It's a complicated and contentious issue, and if I'm understanding the debate correctly, PR firms are offering the following types of cases where their intervention is needed or useful:
There's derogatory and false (or at any rate unsourced) information about their client in their article. Their client doesn't know how to engage Wikipedia effectively (e.g. OTRS, edit within our rules, etc.) and so they need professionals to fix this.
There may not exactly be false information, but the article is slanted and looks rather like a hatchet job. Our client simply wants a neutral and fair article (which is what Wikipedians should want also). Again, a professional is best suited to fixing this.
And some clients would like to have a Wikipedia article, and we believe that they are sufficiently notable, but there's no article; and they don't want to wait years (or forever) for some random person to create the article. And since they are sufficiently notable (we believe) then an article would enhance the Wikipedia, which should meet the desires both of our client and Wikipedians generally.
It'd be silly to take this entirely at face value (because for one thing "neutral and fair" depends on your point of view, and it's only human for one's point of view may be influenced by who is cutting one's paycheck). BUT, these are valid concerns and, when they do occur, serious problems (the first two anyway). Because they are valid concerns and serious problems, these are good reasons (or excuses if you prefer) for PR firms and paid agents to claim a moral right to edit the Wikipedia and a practical need to do so.
For my part, I'm against paid agents being allowed to edit the Wikipedia. (There is the question of whether as practical matter it's better, tactically, to allow this as opposed to driving it all underground; that's a different issue and outside the scope of this thread.) So, is there another way, rather than allowing or welcoming paid agents, to address these concerns?
Yes, possibly, and I have some concrete suggestions. This is not going to happen right away but it's something worth talking about, maybe. What I'm proposing is:
Articles about Extant Corporations. (This would include non-profit organizations and almost all businesses, even single stores and restaurants, since those are almost always incorporated. But some or many single-person businesses aren't incorporated. It could be "Articles about Extant Organizations" instead, which would be similar but not embracing exactly the same sets.)
Various details to be worked out but the basic thrust would be similar to WP:BLP. Corporations aren't exactly like people so there'd have to be some changes from WP:BLP, but it could be expressed with a similar summary:
This page in a nutshell: Material about extant corporations added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoiding original research.
This article must adhere to the policy on articles about extant corporations, even if it is not about a specific corporation, because it contains material about extant corporations. Contentious material about extant corporations that is unsourced or poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous or deprecatory. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other concerns about edits related to an extant corporation, please report the issue to the articles about extant corporations noticeboard.
If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help with issues related to it, please see some page.
This implies the creation, manning, and efficient operation of a "biographies of extant corporations noticeboard", which seems doable. The Foundation would possibly (maybe) take a hand in promoting and perhaps even monitoring this effort if it gains any traction.
While this remains on the table, it's secondary and peripheral, and is a distraction from the main point, so I'm making it less visible. Discussion remains open though. Herostratus (talk) 15:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Loosening notability requirements
WP:CORP could be made less stringent. Perhaps something along the lines of requiring just one reliable independent ref, and the requirement only proving that the entity exists, and maybe that other material from the article could come from non-independent sources -- the company's web site, for instance. Or something like that.
This would be helpful to corporations, especially corporations whose Google profile is not so good, since the Wikipedia article would likely rise to the top or near and per WP:AEC it would probably be reasonably positive, usually.
Since proof of existence is a simple bright-line test, this would also obviate a lot of contentious discussions about whether a particular entity is or is not notable, which discussions probably sometimes draw in in covert or overt paid agents, which is what we're trying to avoid.
Granted "being helpful to corporations" isn't really part of our core mission, but remember the point here is to get the PR industry off our case and out of our Wikipedia, and this helps this by removing both a philosophical argument for their involvement and a practical reason for same, to some extent.
While this remains on the table, it's secondary and peripheral, and is a distraction from the main point, so I'm making it less visible. Discussion remains open though. Herostratus (talk) 15:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A step beyond this but arguably necessary would be the deployment of corresponding warning templates on the order of
Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, please do not add derogatory material to articles or other Wikipedia pages. Scandal-mongering and using Wikipedia as investigative journalism are against Wikipedia policy and not permitted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you.
For my part, I don't especially like these proposals on the merits. But I'm a social democrat and while I appreciate the cool things that corporations make and do, for-profit corporations are amoral entities and their social impact is mixed and they need plenty of oversight. That's my opinion, and a more pro-business person might feel that these are good proposals on the merits. It comes down to a philosophical opinion on what an article about a corporate entity should be: more of a listing of their vital statistics and description of their products and so forth, or more a description of their role in society, or whatever. We're not Frontline but we're not the Chamber of Commerce either, and threading that needle is difficult and contentious.
However, I'm not not suggesting this on the merits, but as I said for two reasons:
To address the concerns (or professed concerns if you prefer) of the PR industry.
To remove some of the practical reasons for the PR industry to be involved with the Wikipedia.
If this proposal doesn't gain traction, it doesn't mean that these concerns won't be addressed. It just means that they'll be addressed by agents of the corporations themselves, directly. This is problematic as it threatens our reputation, the morale of the volunteers, and our actual neutrality, in my opinion.
There's no force on earth that will stop paid agents from editing the Wikipedia, of course. The point is to strip it of its raison d'etre and reduce the need for it. Herostratus (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I find the proposal repugnant and impractical. This privileges corporation and analogous entities in a very Citizens United way, not for any noble purpose, but merely to keep PR professionals from having to act like responsible Wikipedia editors. Given the tens of millions of corporations in the U.S. alone, the change to WP:CORP by itself could lead to the creation of an entire industry of "put YOUR company into Wikipedia" spamming specialists who would technically be acting within the rules. I see no burning need to whore Wikipedia out to the paid intellectual <insulting five-letter word to be found in the King James version of the Bible removed>s of the PR industry, just because these highly-paid alleged professionals are too damned lazy or stupid to figure out our interface. As an occasional journalist, I also greatly resent the false, even slanderous use of "investigative journalism" as a synonym for "hatchet job"! --Orange Mike | Talk18:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An absolute disgrace. This is a license to turn Wikipedia ino a censored marketing tool, and is far more damaging than SOPA could ever be.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To allow paid editing or advocacy through means that are legitimized, puts Wikipedia at risk. While not all paid editing is with evil intent, it opens the door for abuse. Phearson (talk) 23:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your solution seems analogous to keeping your front door unlocked so burglars won't force the lock when they come to rob your stuff. Yoenit (talk) 23:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but look. It says here, for instance, that a corporation was described as "wanting to kill you" (and the citation was an extremely unreliable source). And this was there for quite a while. And nobody noticed it, or cared. But the corporation noticed it. And they cared. But they couldn't change it (because they don't know how to edit or engage with the Wikipedia properly). So they hired paid agents. I don't like paid agents roaming the database. But if the alternative is that entities will be described as "wanting to kill you" (if it's not justified; it might be in some cases), then bring them on. I think many Wikipedians would agree: bring them on. You want that? People depend on these entities for their livelihoods, you know. It's real important. Why shouldn't they have the same consideration as provided under WP:BLP, or at least some modified version. If we can't solve our problems ourselves, they will perforce be solved by other means -- other means that bring their own problems. Herostratus (talk) 05:19, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let me get this straight: I'm not familiar with the specific case, but you're saying the corporation "cared" but didn't know either how to edit or how to engage with WP. Well, first off, corporations don't care; despite bizarre court rulings suggesting otherwise, corporations are not human or mammalian or even alive, so they're incapable of caring or indeed of having feelings of any kind. As for the people affiliated with the corporation who cared—well, I'm finding it a little hard to imagine that they were capable of using a web browser to find their corporation's article yet were utterly stymied by the links reading "edit this page", "discussion", and "Contact Wikipedia" that appeared above and alongside that article. I have sometimes described myself as an AGF extremist, but I have to tell you I don't believe that for one second. In any event, put me down as opposing this proposal in the strongest terms. You seem to be suggesting we invite the wolf into the fold because otherwise it'll just sneak in anyway. Good grief. We have policies (NOR, NPOV, V) to deal with bad content; we do not need to give corporations special consideration on top of that. "Unwarranted vilification of entities"? Do you have any idea how dystopian that sounds? Also, the likening of "investigative journalism" to advertising is absurd. Rivertorch (talk) 06:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We have NPOV policy to deal with people slanting an article. The proposer seems to at the same time want corporations to be in Wikipedia when they have no notability, and yet for us to treat them with kid gloves like BLP. They have not read the bit in BLP about the strong need for verifiability as well which goes with the kid gloves bit. We definitely do not need loads of corporations noted when they are not notable. From my reading of that case of Bell Pottinger it seems to me their problem was they assumed bad faith so they tried to do things in an underhand way and so acted in bad faith themselves. If they'd done things in a straightforward manner in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem. It does not sound to me from what that says that they have learnt anything either except to be more careful, their attitudes seem unchanged, lets jut hope they follow the policies in future rather than trying to be more devious in 'how best they can use us'. Dmcq (talk) 11:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're ignoring something that applies to straight BLPs as well: BLP victims are typically not familiar with Wikipedia. Therefore, they might not know any methods of fixing the problem other than underhanded ones--that's what unfamiliarity means, they don't know. They might not even be familiar enough with Wikipedia to know that something is underhanded.
A persistent problem with BLPs is that the BLP victim violates the rules to fix his BLP, and a lot of attention is given to banning or blocking him while little attention is giving to fixing his BLP or preventing BLP violations. Pointing out "oh, they assumed bad faith" or "they weren't straightforward" or other examples of misbehavior is an example of this--they don't know Wikipedia, how in the world would we expect them to know about AGF? All they know is that someone is telling lies about them--to an outsider, that looks like reason to assume bad faith. So they violate the rules to fix the lies and people like you jump on them because you care more about the rule violation than the fact that we are spreading lies. Ken Arromdee (talk) 16:44, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We are not talking about BLP here. I fully agree that for BLP we should take extra special precautions. I even do that if they are dead never mind the living bit. But this is about organizations and in particular that complaint was about a PR organization and moreover one where the head man still doesn't see anything wrong with what they did. Dmcq (talk) 05:24, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a paid editor that's been involved in the linked projects and the general effort to make this dynamic better. I think the three bullets up top are very good as problem statements (I would add the desire to make pre-existing articles more complete), but not sure these are the right solutions. A few comments:
Negative POV is often less scrutinized than positive POV, but policy already addresses both equally. It's more of a cultural and motivational problem.
I don't think it makes sense to erode WP:CORP simply because it's difficult to enforce. However I will say there are a lot of very large notable companies who simply aren't in the news much.
The biggest problem is PR people don't read or even know about the existence of policies, so creating more policy for them won't change anything, since they won't read it.
I'm not sure if this was intentional but I do appreciate the language of "hiring a professional." I think PR needs to recognized Wikipedia as an expertise and there needs to be experts that can be a guardian of ethics, protect them from themselves and know policy.
Bell Pottinger basically said they didn't know how to edit Wikipedia ethically. Why do PR people keep accepting work they have no expertise on?
The proposal above is yet another reason why Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad is one of the worst US Supreme Court decisions of all time, in that it created "corporate personhood" without a corresponding check on the power of a "person" which was effectively immortal and, often, richer than Croesus. We treat the biographies of living persons differently from other articles for the simple, humanistic reason that real life-and-blood people can be conceivable be harmed by irresponsible editing of those article. Corporations, on the other hand, have vast resources at their beck and call, and can counter any inadvertant inaccurcies with public relations, advertising and as much "spin" as they're willing to pay for. There's no compelling reason for us to institute a corporate equivalent of our BLP policy, and every reason to be on guard for their attempts to warp our neutral articles to their liking with paid editing. This may not be David vs. Goliath, but there's certainly no reason to give the corporations our assistance in skewing our articles in their favor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most corporations don't have vast resources. Upper Crust Pizzeria doesn't. They've got 20 stores, but they're not Exxon-Mobile. This is typical. Is it right and fair that half their article should consist basically of attacks? Maybe it is. But I'm just asking. (And "real life-and-blood people can be conceivably be harmed" by this sort of thing, yes. Upper Crust Pizzeria is not owned and staffed by robots.)
I hatted the peripheral and distracting sub-proposals, to clarify that the main proposition is:
A notice on the talk pages of these articles, directing people with a problem to a noticeboard where they can seek relief.
And the creation and manning of such a noticeboard.
And a policy supporting the noticeboard, to the general effect of "negative information which is unsourced or improperly sourced should be removed without discussion". It could be hedged all around with various caveats about how this doesn't mean the article has to be a puff piece, or whatever.
While I support making it easier for businesses to challenge unsourced or unreliably sourced negative information, I also want to be sure that we're not allowing them to to exclude serious but unproven allegations just because the allegations have yet to be proven conclusively. Also, we'd want to prohibit the selective inclusion or exclusion of reliably sourced information in a way that violates NPOV, such as listing their product in an article as "a product that is specifically designed to clean up spilled water is the Big Mop by Mops Inc" while not specifically mentioning their competitors and alternative solutions if competitors and alternative solutions are available. So I support this proposal in the sense that it can help with NPOV and requiring reliable sources, but I want to be sure that we don't go too far in allowing the exclusion of allegations and/or competitors' products. Pinetalk23:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question why is this proposal for corporations and not businesses in general? Why not also include forms of business like LLPs which are likely to be used by small businesses? Pinetalk23:07, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think Pine has a good point. Businesses can use a number of different legal frameworks and these can vary a little from country to country. (And in British English, "corporation" looks like an americanism although historically a number of local public-sector bodies used to call themselves "corporation"). So, we should take care to use a more inclusive term.
Wedo have a problem with some business articles being hatchet jobs - although we might fret about paid editors making an article too positive, there's no shortage of editors out there who dislike big businesses generally, or have an axe to grind against a specific retailer or former employer, and hence collect criticism from various angles and wrap it up in decidedly non-neutral text... I think a noticeboard and a couple of templates would be very helpful but am wary of making this a bigger thing with substantial policy changes, like BLP. Simply applying NPOV &c to business articles should be sufficient, I feel, and we should concentrate on ways to get extra eyes on potentially-problematic articles to ensure they fall in line with our existing policies. bobrayner (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, right, it could be "Organizations" instead of "Corporations" (although I think that LLPs could be shoehorned into "corporation". "Businesses" would be no good since that leaves out not-profits maybe. "Organizations" though would (I suppose) include political parties and possibly bands and so forth so I dunno about that. A minor point of semantics though. Herostratus (talk) 05:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support changing this to "organizations." Political parties and bands could have unreliable or unsourced criticism directed at them just as easily as any other type of organization. This doesn't mean that we should remove bad news or credible accusations from articles just because an organization wants us to censor the bad news when the news is backed up by reliable sources, but we also shouldn't be including every unreliable or unsourced negative news and rumor. We need to achieve balance. Pinetalk06:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Given the choice between professional PR agents and the naïve corporate affiliated people who try to write their own articles, the PR agents at least do a more consistent and usable job, with greater potential for improvement. But very few of them ever fully internalize the basic concept that while they are automatically thinking in terms of what the subject wishes to communicate to the public, an encyclopedia article must think in terms of what the public might wish to know.
Yet, we are greatly deficient in usable content in this subject area--perhaps more so than any other broad field. I can think of several approaches. The minimum is to consistently watch what they do ,and fix it--but to do this effectively requires legalizing it,and enforcing the standard that they declare their identity. Perhaps we need to modify our policy on anonymity to the extent that anyone editing for pay or part of a job, declare their true identity and affiliation. This would at least provide a better way or tracking the articles, The second, might be to accept articles on corporate entities in the form of infoboxes, which could then be rewritten by people who understand our rules--this would at least provide the basic information and have the side benefit of providing a channel through which we could look at them. The third, which has the advantage that we are already doing it, is to actively work with the various professional agencies on their field to raise their standardsof work here. DGG ( talk ) 10:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The system doesn't know that it's an alternative account, for all intents and purposes it's a completely different person & account, so there would have to be a system of linking accounts created that was literal and technical as opposed to just a userpage note, so as to prevent impersonation. Doesn't seem worth it for such a minor gain that will effect very few people--Jac16888Talk20:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia should "quantify" its traffic data on Quantcast like so many other sites have done. Quantcast is considered the "de facto standard of web audience measurement" and is much more accurate than Alexa if sites "quantify", or opt for exact statistics and numbers by utilizing the company's direct measurement tool. It's very easy to do and would take the WMF less than a minute to implement. Benefits would be, of course, more reliable and accurate traffic data, as well as page view data not available under current estimated data methods. I realize this proposal may seem silly and/or pointless but I would very much like to see it done. Here's Wikipedia's page on the site: [14]. Kinaro(say hello)(what's been done)00:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I understand what you're saying, though I fail to see how this minor reliance on a third-party service would cause any issues. Also, what private information? Why shouldn't we be able to see an accurate count of Wikipedia's visitors? Kinaro(say hello)(what's been done)04:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is enabling a third party to track every individual's use of Wikipedia. This would break the bond of trust with the readers. If the quantcast server isn't run by Wikimedia, there's no guarantee that the information will only be used in line with Wikimedia's goals. The Quantcast page you link to says "Estimate only" (and their measurements can't include users without Javascript), yet the stats server gives raw hit numbers, so on the face of it your explanation is the wrong way round. MartinPoulter (talk) 13:38, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"more reliable and accurate traffic data, as well as page view data not available under current estimated data methods" data is available, but it is not published Bulwersator (talk) 14:07, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think knowing how often one article is linked from or to another would be very useful. I can see the amount of data involved would be quite large but I believe it is manageable. I don't believe Javascript would be needed for any of this. Dmcq (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to give a suggestion to your website. Could we sort the articles by
" NUMBER OF WORDS"? For example, by 100 words, 300 words, 1000 words, 1500 words,
etc. Most of the time for some user, they just want to know the general
information or the subject of an article only. There isn't necessary to read the
whole article to get the little information. Sorting by number of words is
classified articles into different categories, for lesser words - e.g. 100 words
of an article which is talking about Taoism, so readers may know what they need
are just some main / key ideas ( without redundant history backgrounds). for more
words, it could include more evident or findings for the subject. For even more
words, it could include origins, history etc. So , all in all, just sort
by different ways of summarization of knowledge.
You don't have to read past the lead at the top. Normally people do try and put the more relevant stuff first. Are you thinking perhaps of a facility for phones where you want to restrict the amount downloaded? Anyway going further this idea could be expanded further - have a joystick pushing forward gets you deeper down with lots more detail, back and you zoom up for an overview, perhaps turn left for simpler language and less assumptions whereas turning right assumes the reader knows more of the background and can use more jargon. For editors pressing the fire button will get rid of vandalisms by identifying the edit that last changed the bit pointed at. Zap zap zap, yeah that would be satisfying for dealing with them. Dmcq (talk) 05:11, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Saying what you want is the best way of getting it. Perhaps in the future computers will be smart enough to do what I said. Already we have chat rooms where messages are automatically translated into the language of the person reading the discussion so people don't even have to speak the same language. Your example doesn't satisfy the business about less words, I think what they really are asking for is a cut off which will still display something without eating into their account, that's something I believe some mobile phone service provide already by processing the pages before sending them down but I'm not into that area. Dmcq (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)--42.2.43.151 (talk) 01:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The best way of getting it, and also the best information we want as well. for example, when we search Albert Einstein, in the first beginning paragraphs, i don't even can see his major achievement like Theory of relativity, E = mc square. But i know that is difficult to force other's to think what i think which is more important. i just try to give an suggestion to ask users to make their beginning passage as essence as possible. essence is slightly different to general information. when articles are limited by words, i thought it can let users to think what is important to put their information. And like Dmcq said, mobile phone can apply " lesser word scheme " quite well, but the reason is not quite related the download limitation,i think, it's the phone screen's limitation, it's not that user friendly to read and move around such a big picture in a such a small screen (compared to desktop computer)all in all, sorting by words categories seems a bit far from my original purpose - essence your information. i don't know, i need to think more of that.--42.2.43.151 (talk) 01:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The theory of relativity is mentioned in the very first sentence. Have another look. Also you can normally adjust the format of pages for mobiles so the text just goes down the screen instead of needing to pan over a large screen, there will be some option of the browser to do that and Wikipedia behaves quite well in Opera mobile for instance. There's still room for improvement but it's mainly problems in the content because of the editor generated content rather than the site itself, probably there should be a bit of a drive to deal with such things, also some extra work could be done to make tables behave better. Dmcq (talk) 13:07, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Grandiose's example is a complete one to show the result of what this proposal would be archived. it shows different versions of articles would come out. That's another direction from mine, but that's ok. All this inspired me to know that readers can choose what they want more effectively in some cases. --42.2.43.151 (talk) 01:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
but this indicated another situation is that not only numbers of words should be sort, it should also include key words searching option next to / under numbers of words searching option.--42.2.43.151 (talk) 04:35, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dmcq's suggestions about " lesser words policy" on mobile phone is almost like that, i'm not that capable with technology thing. As mobile phone is getting online everywhere, what we absorb is not huge amount of info, like Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Changing the "d" to "t" in templates
Because of the change of "discussion" to "talk" on Wikipedia articles, we similarly should change this on templates. The "v" is for view (obviously), while "d" is for discussion and "e" is for edit. It makes so much more sense to change the "d" to a "t" (for Talk, as opposed to Discussion) because of the change regarding the tab name (from discussion to talk). Till I Go Home (talk) 07:56, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's a practical reason why it is not "t"; it is too narrow, leaving only three pixels to click on, while the "d" is wider. Compare: d vs. t. — Edokter (talk) — 12:10, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"t/d" (talk/discuss) perhaps? I dislike that "talk" was chosen over "discussion", but now that it's been decided, we should at least make everything consistent. --Cybercobra(talk)17:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. Alternatively, do we really need to link to the talk page of a template from every instance of that template? Leonxlin (talk) 04:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why not change them all to capitals V T E. If you reach a consensus how to do that, poke me or someone on bots, and I could help to implement this widely on site. Petrb (talk) 13:32, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Check Availability" feature for usernames
I think Wikipedia should implement a "Check Availability" feature for usernames (as offered by YouTube) for editors who are newly registering at Wikipedia. As of now, if a username is already taken, the user have to retype the password and the annoying CAPTCHA after choosing a new username. Implementation of this proposed feature will save a lot of time. --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 06:04, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think that there's a list of usernames somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. The fact that I can't find it suggests that finding available and used usernames could be made easier. Pinetalk22:49, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Why hasn't this been implemented it? It's a great idea because it saves time for the person registering, he wouldn't need to get a message saying that the username has already been taken. Narutolovehinata5tccsdnew09:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is very easy to implement, anyway Special:ListUsers list only local users so it's absolutely unusable for this. If there is a support for this, we can implement it quickly, however the deployment to cluster may take a while. Petrb (talk) 12:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Potential student project
I am applying for a summer student to do a Wikipedia Medicine research project through my department. One potentially project I am looking at is having them review all the edits made to Wikiproject Medicine articles.[15] The student will go through each edit and
determine if the edit is okay and revert it/fix it if it is not
determine which edits are made from IP/new users verses long term edits
calculate the percentage of positive/negative edits from each group
they will be going over edits more than one day old and thus we will be able to determine how good Wikipedia is at repairing itself.
I am thinking of collecting a weeks worth of edits. If I am able to get approval and funding from UBC I am hoping to run a second round collecting the same data but with "pending changes" turned on for a week on all medical articles. This students would be handling all pending changes to all medical articles and will be collecting the same data as before. This will allow us to determine if:
pending changes affects the numbers of IPs editing
to what degree pending changes reduces the visibility of poor quality content.
The proposed student will be either between first and second year or second and third year medicine and will be working 40 hours per week for 6-8 weeks during the summer. This is still a rough draft thus appreciate comments? Would also need someone who can create a bot to apply PC to the articles in question if we get to that point. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:44, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that this would require turning whole swathes of an Encyclopedia into a semi private test facility. Whatever work is done should be for the benefit of Wikipedia, not an outside research project. Asking that pending changes be applied to (what one can imagine is) a large number of articles for study purposes, is in my view an unacceptable use of page protection tools. fredgandt14:14, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
People here have asked for data regarding if pending changes works or not. This is a proposal for a trail to determine this. The number of articles in question is about 24,000. Concerns raised regarding PC in the past have been 1)does PC turn people away 2)how much time is required to manage PC 3)how much poor content does it prevent going live. We can determine all of this. We could try it with a one day trial to determine if the effects are large before looking at doing a week. Since this project primarily / only benefits Wikipedia it is going to be a hard sell to my department. But just the effort will raise awareness regarding Wikipedia. I find the comment regarding "outside research project" strange as I am trying to get funding for an inside research project. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There was some trial of pending changes a while ago, did it come up with figures and what happened about it all does somebody know?
Well one would certainly need the trial to last for a while to get over any transitory effects, also one would need to monitor some similar pages say on biology or sport as the numbers of vandals and good editors may vary anyway e.g. when other countries have a summer holiday. Dmcq (talk) 14:44, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes i have seen a bit of an overview from before will try to dig it up latter if someone does not beat me too it. This trial would just be on medicine pages as that is where the founding is coming from and my only interest. Would be great to have others run trials on other topics though.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:54, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was not assuming anything, but basing my comment on the evidence of what you wrote. Claiming that this is not being proposed for the benefit of Wikipedia is an explicit failure to assume good faith. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not I misunderstood the intentions of the proposal, I am insulted by your patronizing suggestion that I in any way didn't assume good faith. As I read the proposal it seemed to be a suggestion that some medical students would privatize a subject in order to study it (etc.). I however at no point considered the proposal to be made in anything but good faith (the tone is obviously serious and considered); I just disagreed with the proposal (as I understood it). Your implication that I did not assume good faith was rude (to me) and unwarranted. Even my Mother doesn't know what I am thinking. You didn't assume good faith in my response to the proposal. I didn't assume anything. I respond and wait. It has paid off. The proposal is now clearer to me. fredgandt17:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Have you run this by your IRB already, or is this at concept stage? Will the student be writing a paper, or is this a pure WP project? (We heavily frown on external experiments run on us lab rats)
My first concern is the expertise of your selected student, expecially if they are handling PCs, 2nd-3rd year meds sounds better. The equal ranking concern is how well they can learn that they are not in charge of anything at all. I think you should change your design so that they are also analyzing responses to their own edits.
Setting up PC on 24,000 articles is a tall order, is the function even enabled anymore? Can you select a smaller subset for the trial? Say 2-3,000 articles? Getting an adminbot approved to turn on PC may take the entire summer just to get through BRFA. Franamax (talk) 06:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What the student would do would be collecting data for Wikipedia. I guess I should say they would be dealing with PC when it is on so that this would not generate extra work for the community ( a concern previously raised ). Yes PC is still enables (if you are an admin you can see it under the protect opinion). If by write a paper you mean write an article for the signpost yes. I unfortunately do not think anyone cares about the effect of PC on Wikipedia but us thus seriously doubt we could find an academic journal.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see clearer now that what you are proposing is a re-evaluation of the potential usefulness of the pending changes system. I'm actually a big fan of the idea. There are issues that kinda fly in the face of open editing though. One has to wonder if Wikipedia would be what it is today if there hadn't been the opportunity for any passing Tom, Dick, or Harry to add their little bit. But that is the question isn't it? And with this study you intend to find out? If pending changes was ever going to work well, I feel the judgement of those editors proven by track record would be superior to the judgement of outsiders (however well versed in the subject they might be). Certainly though, if a re-evaluation of PC is what you're after, and a way can be found to do it without disrupting the Encyclopedia too much, I might support it. 20000 pages is far too many to play with though. A longer running test on a far smaller subcategory would (in my opinion) be far less disruptive (and possibly thus, far more fruitful). fredgandt17:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(*grumble*)
Yes, there is data from the previous trial. You can see some of it at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Metrics/Anonymous edit quality. Yes, the data proves that PC works for permitting new and unregistered editors to make improvements (about a third of the edits to these articles) while preventing vandalism and other bad edits from ever seeing the light of day (about two-thirds of the edits). NB that the articles in question were selected primarily from among semi-protected BLPs, i.e., articles known to have had problems in the past. The ratio of good:bad edits is likely to be (much) higher if you're randomly selecting articles.
Doc James, the better way to run this trial is to randomly assign half the articles to PC and half to current status during the same week. This eliminates problems with unexpected media exposure, holidays, etc., and also halves the workload. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:52, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I just had a quick look around and I just don't see any metrics to answer the questions I'd have wanted to answer. In particular there is no comparable sample chosen with pending changes not used and they should count ordinary editors to see the effect on them as well and if possible I'd like to have an idea of the number of watchers for each article. I think I'd have just stuck it on a random sample of other pages too for the trial period to see the effect where there wasn't a preexisting problem. I'd have thought there would be some good statisticians around on Wikipedia who could have helped with setting up the trial and interpreting the results. Dmcq (talk) 09:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose running this trial. First, the subject is inappropriate, as the content of or medical articles is well-watched, and has been repeated evaluated by outside evaluators as having very high quality, If we were to do such a test, there are many areas much more susceptible to problematic edits--PC was introduced at first as a proposal for BLPs, and was used as such; BLPs in certain fields particularly, such as entertainment and politics, have a much higher frequency of problems ,
More generally, I think we've discussed this enough.There is already an excellent trial running: the German Wikipedia. On the one hand, their articles have a higher quality of writing--on he other, they are by our standards very often inadequately documented. Perhaps a more detailed analysis of the differences here might be the more productive approach. It does however, require a degree of fluency in German uncommon in the US.
Even more generally, regardless of what might have been the case two or three years ago, quality is not now our most pressing problem The overall quality of Wikipedia is well accepted--that is, the overall quality as judged by appropriate standards for a quick reference site, not the standards for an academic treatise. and the public now seems to understand that such is the appropriate standard. Our problems are rather the attraction and especially the retention of new editors and the introduction of spam articles for both companies and non-profit organizations. Patrolled Changes is irrelevant to the problem of new spam articles, and almost certainly counter-productive in terms of editor attraction and retention. What we need to solve, are the currently critical problems.
Overall, I well recall the tens of thousands of hours for us all devoted to this problem: for us discussing it, for our testing it and explaining it, for the programmers attempting to meet the constraints of our high editing rate. During the trial, the difficulties were such that I at least simply refrained from editing any article under the trial despite my admin status which meant anything I edited would be automatically approved by the system. (The effect of the deWP system is such that I no longer attempt to do even simple error-fixing there--which I must admit is all I'm generally capable of in that language. --that's part of the basis on which i anticipate a similar discouraging effect here.) I think the best way of distracting us from positive work on the problems of Wikipedia would be to reintroduce the subject. I'm glad the programmers made the final decision--their disgust at working so hard on what was not implemented led them to refuse to work further unless we would commit, and since we would not commit without proof that it worked better, this put an end to it. DGG ( talk ) 10:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Create a category for CORRELATIVE / SIMILAR CONCEPTS
To my limited experience and knowledge, I found there are quite a lot of correlated concepts among different stream of knowledge. Like “ nothing comes from nothing” is correlated to some ideas from “Modern physics”. Another example is - matter is merely a vacuum fluctuation (seems not updated in wikipedia yet, assume it is part of the content under Matter), it correlated with the Buddha’s concept – form is void, void is form (it means anything with a physical state is void). Add a “correlative concepts”/"similar concepts"(hyper link) next to the paragraph or the name of those concepts with the correlated idea.(now we have similar things like "see also") What’s more to do is to provide a category to collect all the "correlative concepts"/"similar concepts"(or the“see also”) and arrange them according to the alphabet headings of the titles of the correlative articles/paragraphs/sentences/key words.
So, even the action is linking two existing articles is counted as original research?? ohh, i just think it could be an inspiring thing if everyone suggest what they see similar concepts cross-disciplinary...--42.2.43.151 (talk) 03:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand your examples. But currently, if two topics are related, there are many ways of linking them. For example, they might be discussed within the article prose, using links to provide pathways for more information. If there's substantial material to be covered, new sections can be created, as in at Water#In_culture, or Entropy#Interdisciplinary_applications_of_entropy. Your Nothing comes from nothing#Modern physics example also shows this. If you're thinking of something that has the effect of marginal side-notes in a textbook cross-referencing other topics, consider footnotes, which aren't just for references. See Logarithm#Notes for an example usage. Leonxlin (talk) 04:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
yea, what if there is a page which list all these interdisciplinary concepts. then we can easy and all-rounded to know interdisciplinary and cross disciplinary knowledge. seems concepts / knowledge have no borders to meet their partners (similar concepts), but the current classification of knowledge cannot show these concepts found their relatives in a whole picture. It's important to show it in a whole picture i think, as knowledge can actually grow horizontally, not only vertically (vertically is meant going deeper and deeper). but the two direction is important too i know. --42.2.43.151 (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
SOPA IS IMPORTANT - have a continual pronouncement on pages re internet restriction (vs. one shot)
we must deal with this internet liberty issue in favor of freedom, which is what separates us from China, & other intolerable living situations - SOPA/PIPA will obviously be reformed, to deal with the piracy issue in a huge way - we should *STAY VIGILANT* until it is resolved in favor of The People, by adding the SOPA/free speech awareness banner (even a 'bar': thin & black) to the top of ALL pages keeping EVERYONE abreast of the internet free speech / piracy issue until it is resolved.
CHOLERA IS IMPORTANT... should we display a permanent banner informing the world about that issue too? How about another banner warning visitors about Global warming? I can imagine there are hundreds of seriously pressing issue we can protest and advertise. How far down the page should the top of the articles be before we consider them too far down? fredgandt02:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Automatic warning when creating section heading exactly matching an existing section heading
When creating a section heading, I feel it would be beneficial if the parser would direct us to a "are you sure?" page that we must agree to before continuing the save. Since the table of contents and section links are basically useless when on whatever page there are more than one section with the same heading, this might help to stop some of the doppelgängers ever happening and thus make navigation simpler.
Further to this, it might be even nicerer to have automatic anchoring, for any precisely similar section headings that are created even after the warning/alert (alert is perhaps a better word).
I realise that {{anchor}}s exist to solve parts of this issue, but they must be added by hand and known of by any editor who wishes to take advantage of them. To know where all the anchors are would be a logistical nightmare (what links here?, have fun with that). For ease and common simplicity, surely the parser should take care of all this stuff for us.
So I propose that:
On saving a page we are alerted to the fact we are creating a section heading exactly matching an existing section heading.
We must either change the section name or agree to go ahead anyway, before the page can be saved.
Preferably, if any page has any exactly matching section headings, the parser (whenever it spots them (every page edit)) automatically adds an anchor to the sections in question that should be labelled simply as perhaps Example heading 1, Example heading 2 etc., so that we (editors) know where to find them, that they are certainly there, and what they'll be called.
I expect there are many technical issues and editorial considerations here, but Rome wasn't built in a day (gotta start somewhere). fredgandt22:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You've fallen into this trap before I think: when you start a new section (using the "+" link) you get a URL with "§ion=new". This lets the parser handle just the new section text when you preview. Asking the parser to look at other parts of the page requires parsing the entire page, regardless of how large and funky it is. This fundamentally breaks the whole concept of section-by-section editing, so I don't see how can it be built in as an automatic feature of the software. Franamax (talk) 08:53, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I missed your "on saving" bit. I could see duplicate-header detection being an optional gadget, same as the thing that prompts you for an edit summary, so it probably is doable on a technical basis. Why not code up such a gadget yourself? It's easy enough to set up your own test wiki with the exact same software we run here. Franamax (talk) 08:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That would be a good idea; here's a corollary for it, too: Don't give Wikilove messages all the same blinkin' name! Make the sender choose a section header. By the time you've been given a few kittens / cups of tea / wossnames, it's a real PITA! You type a nice reply to the most recent kitten-sender, hit the save button, and your page displays the first kittie-message on reloading, not the one you've just replied to! @Franamax: I'm sure there must be a way of achieving this without the parser having to parse the entire page, it just may not be immediately apparent. Maybe parse a "sub-page" kinda hidden thingie which has only section headers in it? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject History: time for an end?
I am not sure that WikiProject History is on the road to revitalization at anytime soon. I would like to suggest that the project either be redirected to something of a mini-WikiProject Council or just outright deleted, as it is no longer active or incredibly useful. My first choice would be to tag it as "Historical," but would that just make it an unreachable part of the past that's still obvious to viewers of the website? A mini-WikiProject Council of History-inclined Wikipedians could help increase collaborative efforts between History-related WikiProjects, but would deletion be the most efficient alternative now? DCItalk22:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Deletion is sometimes an option given the general amount of activity a WikiProject has had previously.
However, DCI, given the large amount of content discussed on the talk pages, I would be inclined to mark it inactive, or possibly repurpose it to act as a host to history minded Wikipedians to discuss various issues, as you suggest. --Izno (talk) 04:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion for how to stimulate improved content
Don't think this has been suggested before - couldn't find evidence anyhow - apologies if it's been dealt with already.
A common experience when looking up a topic in Wikipedia is the feeling that one has learned something but not found all the information one would have wanted on a particular topic. Often, this is largely because the editors of that page have come at the topic from a particular angle (no criticism, that's just how humans work!). If only the editors of that topic knew what it was I (and other users, obviously) needed to know, they could soon update the content to reflect the broader viewpoint required for that topic.
Why not have, at the bottom of every article, an area where users can a) add questions they'd like to see answered in the text of that article, and b) see questions other users have already posed? Each time an edit is made that answers one of the questions in this list, that question could be removed from the list by admin. Admin could also remove questions that are not pertinent to or appropriate for that article.
Perhaps there are technical issues about adding user-modifiable text to the displayed webpage? Just thought I'd see what people think, anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mesbailey (talk • contribs) 03:23, January 23, 2012
We already have talk pages and the feedback tool thing. Talk pages do exactly what you propose, just not at the bottom of the article. fredgandt03:53, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A "Make a suggestion" link next to the feedback tool, which would send readers to a feedback box which would then add to the talk page, would work quite well. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Contents summaries for all ref desks on one page
May I suggest we create a page that gathers just the question lists (ie. the "Contents" boxes) at the top of all of the ref desks on one page? That way people who like multiple ref desks, and people who mostly want to edit mainspace, but like to have a quick check of the desks, can browse them all in one go. So in other words, the page would consist of 7 boxes full of question titles, and possibly (if there's room) of the help desk's question headings as well. IBE (talk) 10:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
fredgandt
Relevant discussion at
I mean, we already have pending changes: it's just called {{editprotected}} and it has a much worse UI than pending changes does. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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