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Talk:1939 Coventry bombing

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'To aid the German cause'

[edit]

While I am totally against edit-warring and sockpuppetry, the recent edit-war has highlighted what I think is a problematic first sentence. Now that the editor in question has been blocked, I think it's in order to have a discussion about the edits. I have several problems with the current wording:

1. An opening sentence of "The Coventry bombing of 25 August 1939 was carried out by the Irish Republican Army as a part of its S-Plan campaign of bombing English cities to aid the German cause..." suggests that this is the main theme of the article. In fact, the word "German" never appears again in the article. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should provide an introduction and summary of the article, not make loaded claims that are never expanded.
2. The S-Plan was conceived in 1938 and commenced in January 1939, during the period of "Peace in Our Time", so to call it a "campaign of bombing English cities to aid the German cause" makes no sense whatsoever.
3. The citations are to two reputable news organisations. All well and good, but WP:NEWSORG says "'News reporting' from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact...Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces...are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Statements of fact, in this instance, means date and time, location, strength of the explosion, and number and identity of victims. Assertions about the motivations of the bombers are not statements of fact. Colm Wallace, as far as I can tell, has written two books, neither of them about the IRA campaign in Britain. He would not be a "specialist or recognised expert" and, in any case, WP:NEWSORG adds in a footnote that "any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources, and this is policy."
4. Only the Colm Wallace Irish Times article uses the phrase "to aid the German cause". The BBC article says "to put on a 'public display' to Nazi Germany about the IRA's capabilities", which is not the same thing at all. A third source, the Coventry Telegraph, which is widely used in the article, makes no reference whatever to Germany or Germans.

I propose that everything after "...campaign of bombing English cities" be removed from the first sentence of the lead, and added to the "Attack" section, as a separate paragraph before the list of the dead, saying:

• The bombing took place nine days before the outbreak of World War II. It has been said that it was intended "to aid the German cause" or as a "public display" of the IRA's strength to Germany.^[1][2]

Scolaire (talk) 10:44, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very well put together argument, which I'm happy to go along with. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the bombing had nothing to do with aiding the German war cause, it's actually a ludicrous statement. From the S-Plan page "The S-Plan or Sabotage Campaign or England Campaign was a campaign of bombing and sabotage against the civil, economic, and military infrastructure of the United Kingdom from 1939 to 1940, conducted by members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA). It was conceived by Seamus O'Donovan in 1938 at the request of then IRA Chief of Staff Seán Russell. Russell and Joseph McGarrity are thought to have devised such a strategy in 1936." So the IRA came up with this plan in 1936 four years before WW2 began. The S-Plan (the 1939 IRA England bombing campaign) started in January 1939, are we really expected to believe that the IRA knew that Germany would invade Poland in September 1939? The IRA (calling themselves the Government of the Irish Republic) actually gave their motivation for bombing Coventry and other English cities on the 12 January 1939 when they issued a declaration of war on Britain.

I have the honour to inform you that the Government of the Irish Republic, having as its first duty towards its people the establishment and maintenance of peace and order here, demand the withdrawal of all British armed forces stationed in Ireland. The occupation of our territory by troops of another nation and the persistent subvention here of activities directly against the expressed national will and in the interests of a foreign power, prevent the expansion and development of our institution in consonance with our social needs and purposes, and must cease.

The Government of the Irish Republic believe that a period of four days is sufficient notice for your Government to signify its intentions in the matter of the military evacuation and for the issue of your Declaration of Abdication in respect of our country. Our Government reserves the right of appropriate action without further notice if upon the expiration of this period of grace, these conditions remain unfulfilled.

Óglaigh na h-Éireann (Irish Republican Army).

General Headquarters, Dublin, January 12th,1939, to His Excellency the Rt. Hon. Viscount Halifax, C.G.B.^[1]

The motivation behind the S-Plan was the motivation behind every single Irish Republican campaign since the 1798 rebellion and that was to get the British out of Ireland. Offey123 (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well the article sources back it up so your claim is not valid. Please abide by consensus and verifiability. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"As they were being led to the execution, Barnes continued to plead his innocence, whereas McCormick stood defiant, saying "As a soldier of the Irish Republican Army, I am not afraid to die for I am dying in a just cause."[2]"

The above is misleading it makes it sound like as they were being taken to be hanged they said these things which the source does not say happened.

Also can the quote by Barnes "“I am innocent. I had neither hand, act or part in it. That is all I have to say.” be added?

source :http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/75-years-since-the-ira-bombed-coventry-283375.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel o'gara (talk • contribs) 22:23, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I amended the statement. I don't see a need for a quotation from Barnes considering the article already states that he "pleaded" or rather "protested" (which is the word used by the source and now in the article) his innocence. There are no quotes from victims or their families and there is no real need for them. To provide simply quotes from perpetrators would give a sense of WP:UNDUE. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:58, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• IRA.Coventry.attack.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]