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The text claims that NSB class 49 was "the only true compounds owned by the NSB". This claim is surprisingly, since a large number of Norwegian steam locomotives from 1893 onwards with both 2 and 4 cylinder compunds where built: classes 11b, 12b, 13, 15, 16, 18a, 19a, 20a, 21a (2 cylinders not superheated), classes 26, 30, 31 (4 cylinders superheated) and narrow gauge XVIII (4 cylinder Vauclain compound), to mention most of them, unless there is some special meaning in "true compounds"? --Sveins (talk) 13:50, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lima Nr.1 (The Demonstrator) 28x30 63 385.000 lb was later sold to Illinois Central Railroad where it was numbered to I.C. Nr.7050.
Boston & Maine Railroad Class T-1a locomotives Nr.4000, 4002, 4005, 4006, 4009, 4009, 4010, 4012, 4014, and 4019 were resold in 1945 to Southern Pacific Railroad where they become S.P. Nr´s. 3500 - 3509 respectively.
Boston & Maine Railroad Class T-1a locomotives Nr.4001, 4003, 4004, 4008, 4011, 4015, and 4018 were resold in 1951 to Atchinson, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad Company where they received new numbers in this respectively order: A.T.&S.F.Nr.4193, 4197, 4194, 4195, 4196, 4198, and 4199.
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The number for the ex-Soviet Class FDp 2-8-4 on a plinth at the back of Kiev Passenger (near the sheds - to which access is not easy to get!) should read "FDp 20-578" and not "IS21-578" - I was there on June 19 this year and have some photos, but there are plenty in the Internet anyway. Maelli (talk) 13:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some info that I omitted from the Austria heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 00:27, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
A typical schedule for Class 12.0 locomotives was (as an example) heavy (up to 600 tons) D140 combined Bucharest / Istanbul - Budapest - Vienna - Salzburg - Innsbrück - Paris Express train. The schedule allowed 53 minutes for 60.6 km (37.7 mi) to Sankt Pölten. From St.Pölten to Amstetten, Lower Austria 64.0 km (39.8 mi) 48 minutes at average speed from start to stop of 80 km/h (50 mph). Amstetten - Linz Hbf 63.9 km (39.7 mi) in 50 minutes at average start to stop speed of 76.7 km/h (47.7 mph). Linz Hbf - Attnang-Puchheim 54.8 km (34.1 mi) in 46 minutes at 71.5 km/h (44.4 mph). Attnang-Puchheim - Salzburg Hbf 70.2 km (43.6 mi) start to stop in 60 minutes at 70.2 km/h (43.6 mph). The return workings followed a similar pattern. D139 Salzburg - Attnang-Puchheim in 57 minutes. Attnang-Puchheim - Wels (30.5 km (19.0 mi)*) in 24 minutes. Wels - Linz Hbf (24.5 km (15.2 mi)*) in 23 minutes. Linz Hbf - Amstetten in 60 minutes. Amstetten - St.Pölten in 59 minutes. St.Pölten - Wien Westbahnhof in 54 minutes.
After World War II, 12.001 - 12.013 were renumbered to ÖBB Class 12.01 -12.13.
In 1945 seven of these locomotives were taken over by the Soviet Military Administration when they occupied the Russian zone in Austria. These locomotives, 12.002, 005, 006, 007, 009, 013, and 12.101, had "T" (Trofya) painted before their running numbers and were marked CCCP.
Some info that I omitted from the Brazil heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 19:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Some info that I omitted from the Czechoslovakia heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 21:12, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Some info that I omitted from the Germany heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 00:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
More details are found in many articles in German books and magazines. Too many to be detailed here as sources but for short look see classic: Klaus Gerlach: Dampflok-Archiv published by transpress Berlin (Ost) 1968.
Some info that I omitted from the Norway heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 21:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
In summer 1939 the NSB timetable allowed for Class 49 locomotives:
Trondheim–Støren 52 km (32 mi) 58 minutes with day express train and 54 minutes with sleeping car night express train.
Støren–Oppdal 71 km (44 mi) 93 minutes and 80 minutes.
Opdal–Dombås 97 km (60 mi) 112 minutes and 91 minutes.
Hauling the northbound express trains (Oslo - Trondheim):
Dombås–Opdal 82 minutes with sleeping car night express train and 88 minutes with day express train.
Opdal–Støren 69 minutes and 74 minutes.
Støren–Trondheim 54 minutes and 63 minutes.
Builder details:
NSB 463 Class 49a 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.0 tons Hamar & Thune 377 / 1935 + 16.12.1958
NSB 464 Class 49aa 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.1 tons Hamar & Thune 378 / 1935 + 20.06.1958
NSB 465 Class 49b 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.1 tons Hamar & Thune 379 / 1936 + 16.12.1958
NSB 470 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.4 tons Krupp 2152 / 1940 + 16.12.1958
NSB 471 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.4 tons Krupp 2153 / 1940 + 16.12.1958
NSB 472 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.2 tons Thune 409 / 1941 + 16.12.1958
NSB 473 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.1 tons Thune 410 / 1941 + 16.12.1958
Some info that I omitted from the Romania heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 22:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Some info that I omitted from the Soviet Union heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 21:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
On January 1, 1941 class IS20 and IS21 locomotives were allocated to:
IS21-648 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1942 (completed by Ulan Ude Works)
IS21-650 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1941 (completed by Ulan Ude Works)
Unfortunately when the Soviet Union collapsed, the former management destroyed all documents of locomotive production. At the moment (2008) only few Voroshilovgrad works numbers for Class IS20 and IS21 are known.
Some info that I omitted from the United States of America heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 23:24, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Preservation
With the success of AMCs design, the Nickel Plate Road (NKP) became synonymous with the Berkshire locomotive type. One of this class, 765,[1] is preserved in operating condition and is operated occasionally on the mainlines of Class I railroads around the United States. NKP 779 is preserved as a static display in Lincoln Park, in Lima, Ohio.[2] Parts from the 779 were used in the general overhaul of the 765, which was completed in 2006. In addition, 759 is stored at the Steamtown National Historic Site, 757 is stored at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, and 755 is stored at the Conneaut Railroad Historical Museum.
In January 2007, the Ohio Central Railroad System purchased NKP 763 from the Virginia Museum of Transportation. The Current owners, as of March 2012, Age of Steam Roundhouse intend on bringing the 763 back to operating status.[3]
Twelve of the Chesapeake and Ohio's "Kanawha" 2-8-4 locomotives are still in existence, with one notable example being 2716. In the early 1980s the engine was rebuilt and briefly operated by the Southern Railway in excursion service, and is today displayed at the Kentucky Railway Museum.
Another 2-8-4, Pere Marquette Railway #1225, which occasionally runs in the upper Midwestern US, was used as the basis for the locomotive in the 2004 CGI-animated movie The Polar Express. A sister engine, Pere Marquette #1223, is on display in Grand Haven, Michigan. Because 1223 provided parts in the restoration of 1225, 1223 is no longer operable.
No, they refer to the same thing, the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement of a steam locomotive. "Berkshire" is the colloquial American name for engines of this wheel arrangement. Therailhead1974 (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. A 'Berkshire' can mean two things (an example of metonymy), either the Lima S-2 class of the Nickel Plate Road or else the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement more generally. The S-2 were the first Berkshires built and took their name from the Berkshire Hills. These were not the only US Berkshires, Lima proceeded with the type and built other class like the N-1, the Baldwin M-1, Alco K-4 and then finally the S-3. These were a particularly wartime loco pattern, both in the USA and in the German Reich: the latest in technical developments, a powerful loco operated by a single crew capable of handling heavy trains without double heading, and with a large grate area to burn low quality coal, hence the trailing bogie rather than the preceding two-wheeled truck of the 2-8-2. Exceptions to this were the Soviet examples and maybe the Norwegians.
Quite an exception to these were the earlier British colonial 2-8-4T tank engines of around 1900, such as the WAGR K class. These were not Berkshires, and have no commonality with them. They were eight-coupled narrow gauge tank locos to achieve the adhesion needed for their power, a simple leading truck to cope with colonial track standards, and a four-wheeled bogie to carry the weight of the bunker, not a large firebox.
Merging would be justified. A Berkshire is a 2-8-4 and the terms are adequately synonymous to justify such a merge. However I don't think this would be for the bet, for a couple of reasons.
The 2-8-4 article, like most of the wheel arrangement articles, is poor. It's a train spotting list of everyone's favourite example, arranged by geography. It conveys almost no encyclopedic information and certainly not any engineering knowledge. In particular, the tank locos and the Berkshires are mixed together, despite having little in common (the South African class 24s are an interesting late cross-over between the two). The 2-8-4 article doesn't highlight the splits between these early tank locos, the first US Berkshires, the Soviet and Norwegian examples, or the later use to support a huge grate. Particularly for Central Europe, where there's little in common between the BBÖ 214 and the DB class 65!
I think there's scope for a good article at Berkshire locomotive on the development of the US Berkshires and their influences into Europe, Japan and Australia. This wouldn't happen in the 2-8-4 article. Although that's unlikely to happen anyway, since editors stopped writing on WP and switched to just being a bureaucracy. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. North American practice was to give wheel arrangements nicknames, so "Berkshire" and "2-8-4" are synonyms. It is technically correct, in America, to refer to any 2-8-4 locomotive as a "Berkshire" or "Berkshire-type," and there should not be an entirely separate article just for the North American nickname.
In response to Andy's comment above, the Nickel Plate Road S-2s were nowhere near being the first Berkshire-types built in the United States (that would be Lima's A-1 demonstrator), and actually significantly differed in design and role to the Lima A-1. Both are correctly called "Berkshire types" however, and in fact the WAGR K class Andy mentions could even be called a "Berkshire" because it is a 2-8-4. American steam locomotive nicknames/type names make no distinction between size, role, tank vs. tender, etc. and the WAGR K class does in fact share the most important feature with American Berkshires--the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement. The only reason a wheel arrangement would have multiple names in American usage is if an American railroad company chose to refer to that wheel arrangement on their railroad by a different name, even if the design is largely identical to other engines of the type. This can be seen with the Chesapeake & Ohio's "Kanawhas," which are virtually identical to the Pere Marquette's N-class, themselves merely slight enlargements of the Nickel Plate's S-class. A virtually identical design was ordered by the Virginian Railway, which was content to call them "Berkshires."
I have made several edits to the 2-8-4 page to improve its general quality and discussion, at least regarding American development of the type. My edits cover all the information included in the Berkshire page, so I support the merging of the two pages. Therailhead1974 (talk) 15:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]