![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The section European Union in the article states: "The European Union permits a maximum thujone level of 10 mg/kg in alcoholic beverages with more than 25% ABV, and 35 mg/kg in alcohol labeled as bitters.[83] Member countries regulate absinthe production within this framework. Sale of absinthe is permitted in all EU countries unless they further regulate it."
Is this correct? Should it not be: "The European Union permits a maximum thujone level of 10 mg/kg in alcoholic beverages with no more than 25% ABV, and 35 mg/kg in alcohol labeled as bitters.[83] Member countries regulate absinthe production within this framework. Sale of absinthe is permitted in all EU countries unless they further regulate it."
I found it confusing when I read it the first time. --Keithf2008 (talk) 22:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Hello Keith, The former is correct. Your assumption would mean 10mg for spirits under 25% alc when in fact it is actually 5mg for spirits uner 25% abv and 10mg for spirits over 25% abv. It is also worth noting that the regulations are the same in the USA. Nightcafe1 (talk) 05:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
according to the PBS series,Paris, opium was mixed into the drink circa 1900 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.202.33.130 (talk) 17:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I'll willingly admit to being no sort of alcohol connoisseur, but it seems to me that "kg" (kilograms?) is not a valid unit for measuring liquids. In reading the page for Thujone, I found this: A 2005 study recreated three 1899 high-wormwood recipes and tested them with gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS). The highest contained 4.3 mg/L thujone. A 1930s Pernod Tarragona was also tested and contained 1.8 mg/L thujone. Clearly this measures thujone content in mg/L, not mg/kg, but since litres and kilograms aren't compatible units, I'm having some difficulty converting the two. Anyone care to help me out? Cartographique (talk) 05:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Either mg/kg or mg/l is valid for expressing concentration in liquids. The former expresses it on a mass basis, while the latter refers to a volumetric basis. The key to converting from one to the other is knowing the specific gravity of the liquid. The s.g. of water at standard temperature is 1.0 g/ml. Ethanol is somewhat less at 0.785 g/ml. The 1930 era Pernod Tarragona is 68% ethanol. The '1899 recipes' are probably around the same ABV. 68% ethanol in water has a s.g. of about 0.854 g/ml. If we insert this into our algebraic conversion, 4.3 mg/L ~= 5.0 mg/kg, and 1.8 mg/l ~= 2.1 mg/kg. Vapeur (talk) 12:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
"Modern Drunkard Magazine" Thoughts please on why this is deemed a worthy article for inclusion.FortDaniel (talk) 08:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate your effort for writing this article but i must say this is totally biased article and i strongly oppose this. You have mentioned "Hill's Absinth" , This is quite an unfair. You can't use other companies name like this. Please remove that part as soon as possible.Upendrasri (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Hey dipshit, why don't you just change it yourself? This is wikipedia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.9.42.11 (talk) 04:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Wow this is unusual. I just wrote an incredibly long comment, but after I click submit, my comments did not appear. Grrrr ... well, I do not write all over again. No matter what, just want to say great blog! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.226.236 (talk) 03:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Some idiot keeps deleting references to the Bible in the History section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.212.244 (talk) 02:47, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The pronunciation key suggests the "ab-synth" pronunciation is the only one, however "ab-santh" is an equally valid pronunciation. 80.6.35.235 (talk) 18:59, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I've seen several people edit this wiki page with information about a jailbreaking tool of the same name. Obviously that information does not belong on a wiki page about a distilled spirit.
Should the jailbreaking tool be given its own wiki page? Or is there a different page where it could be more appropriately added? --Strongbad9405 (talk) 18:27, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
In one of the opening lines the following is stated: "Although absinthe was vilified, it has not been demonstrated to be any more dangerous than ordinary spirits. Any psychoactive properties attributed to absinthe, apart from that of the alcohol, have been much exaggerated."
As one continues to read towards the end, it is clear that one of the properties used in the distillation process of absinthe is 'wormwood' or scientifically, Artemisia species.
The wormwood leaves (used in the distillation process to create absinthe), are considered to be part of the reason why Absinthe was banned from mostly commercial production during the 20th century world-wide, (which is in complete contradiction to the opening statement referenced above).
The article goes on to state the following regarding 'thujone', one of the properties of 'wormwood - Artemisia species'................."thujone content regulations, which specify that finished food and beverages that contain Artemisia species must be “thujone free”. In this context, the TTB considers a product to be thujone-free if the thujone content is less than 10 ppm (equal to 10 mg/kg). This is verified through the use of Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry."
"The importation, distribution, and sale of absinthe is permitted with respect to the following restrictions: The product must be thujone-free as per TTB guidelines".
So my question to Absinthe lovers and aficionados is this: The opening line in this page states that wormwood was no more dangerous than any other spirit manufactured, as the thujoe levels were never sufficient to cause harm to an individual, and yet, countries world-wide banned Absinthe production world-wide (mostly and including the United States), due to the fear that thujone levels from wormwood could cause death. The Ban on levels of thujone today continue...............must be less than 10 ppm.
So is wormwood (Artemisia species) harmful or not when consumed in Absinthe?? Is it the way the opening sentence reads in this article (not harmful), or is it the way that the ban continues to be as read later in the page (less than 10 ppm)?
Beaconmike (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
There is no contradiction. The opening statement is absolutely accurate and correct. A. absinthium is an ingredient integral to absinthe, just as juniper is to gin. The notion that A. absinthium is harmful in this context was originally promoted to single out and vilify absinthe pursuant to economic and political interests. Modern science eventually demonstrated this position to be false. Meanwhile, even countries that banned absinthe specifically didn't necessarily ban the use of A. absinthium in finished beverages, although many countries eventually adopted regulations that placed restrictions upon thujone content applicable to all finished foods and beverages. These restrictions are not derived from modern science, and tend to be overreaching and excessive, although recent studies have proven that the most lauded preban absinthes never contained more than a trace of thujone regardless. More recently, the EU has raised its limits on thujone content from 10 to 35ppm in response to a recommendation by the World Health Organization (WHO). Other countries haven't (yet) followed suit, but the EU revision makes for a good argument. See www.thujone.info for a better understanding. Vapeur (talk) 23:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Absinthes dont need to be "traditional" to be considered absinthe. By half the arguements on here, we should also add "absinthe MUST be made with poisionous dyes and metals to be considered absinthe". Light beer is ~2% ABV. This does not stop it from being beer. Some whiskeys are cut to 50% ABV. This is less than traditional amounts, but do they stop being whiskeys? NO! 80-90% ABV absinthes give a light and subtle taste, as you use less of the spirit. The LOWEST percentage absinthe I have ever encountered is 60%, and the lowest I can normally find is 78%. (203.97.97.188 (talk) 09:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC))
The alcohol content of two traditional absinthes is higher than 75% ABV. The Blanche Traditionelle from Switzerland contains more than 81% alcohol and the Eichelberger 78 from Germany contains 78% alcohol. Jenever Spirit (talk) 17:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Are these really traditional to the Franco-Swiss method of making absinthe? I believe vapeur has previously stated that there is no traditional absinthe over 75%. Alanmoss (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I have looked at Fée Verte and even the complete 19th Century distillers' manuals at the Wormwood Society. I can't find any 19th century reference to absinthe over 74%. Assuming that Traditional means "handed down from generation to generation," I don't believe it is right to link "traditional" with anything over 75%.
---> FYI: There is nothing historically representative or traditional about a bottle of 90% ABV alcohol that has been tainted with commercial flavorings and green dye that features the word "absinth" printed on the label. Vapeur (talk) 05:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)vapeur
What does seem to be traditional about the Blanche Traditionelle is its characteristic uncoloured nature - not its strength.
Perhaps it would be more relevant to write something about traditional absinthes being up to 75%, but newer absinthes sometimes exceeding this figure? Alanmoss (talk) 16:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
The purpose of the introductory paragraph is to describe absinthe in its original incarnation, which is at the root of interest for the vast majority of readers who research the subject. What constitutes "traditional" is that which is historically representative and true to tradition. In this context, the cornerstone of the market at the time of the ban (some 110 years after initial commercialization of absinthe) consisted of brands representative of the method of production and flavor profile associated with the earliest origins of the spirit. This is likewise supported by the most credible distillation treatises from the period. This observation is uncolored by market perceptions (old or new), and is simply a matter of fact.
The original texts describe preparations ranging from 45-74% ABV. A few bottles of the earliest versions of popular brands are clearly labeled at 75%. Unless a historical exception can be demonstrated, traditional absinthes always fell within this range.
Artifically colored absinthes and/or those macerated from industrial essences were descibed in credible texts, and were regarded as untraditional and 'ordinary' at the time. They were still regarded as "absinthe" in the marketplace, just as a certain class of inferior, industrial products qualify as "wine" today. As for how prevalent any of these products were in the market is unclear, but if it serves as an indicator, no surviving examples (none of which I am aware) are known to exist.
There is no historical evidence, written or otherwise in my recollection that legitimizes 'cold infusion' of herbs as a means of creating absinthe. Therefore, any product made in this fashion does not fit any historically accepted definition of absinthe, and it could be reasonably argued on those grounds that such products do not qualify as absinthe by any credible standard. Vapeur (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Absinthe as I understand it must be distilled in Alembics which would limit the alcohol percentage to 72%??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightcafe1 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I remember that an art history professor of mine in college showed a slide of "The Absinthe" to us. (Audio-Visual, how old does that make me sound?) He repeated the commonly held belief that Absinthe had narcotic properties and was highly addictive thus the copious quantities consumed by the masses. After reading this article, I am left wondering was it an affordable drink that made it so popular. An example from today is that if one goes in the average American bar, he can order to three times the numbers of draught beers than he can a shot of or a mixed drink made of several liquors. A lot of beer is consumed, especially by men, because it is cheaper. Do we know how much a glass of absinthe cost, circa 1890 for instance??? It would be interesting to know.User:JCHeverly 23:11, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
I was bad, pardon - but not sorry. In a momentary loss of self control I found it necessary to point out the list of Absinthe aficionados in the second introductory paragraph, were with one notable exception, Picasso, poster children for addictive, self-destructive, and self-indulgent life-styles when I added:
"...a list which, incidentally, consists of individuals who, with the exceptions of Rimbaud and Picasso, consists of men who died young and fairly directly of self-destructive life-styles: alcoholism, opium addiction, and suicide."
It is an especial irony that Picasso, the one survivor, was the greatest by far of the lot - he knew how to work.
If someone is going to create a list of noted 'Absintheurs', one might be more careful not to create a list that anyone casually familiar with the fin-de-siècle Parisian art scene would know consists almost entirely of alcoholics, opium or laudenum addicts, libertines, and suicides - no matter how great they might [or really might] have been. The fact that this list attempts to put into some kind of a context the 'narrow-minded', 'tight-assed' views of contemporary "moral conservatives and abolitionist" what it actually does is show that those critics might have had a socially relevant point. Someone else might wonder what the proper context of this assemblage d'artists really is.
So, maybe the Thujone really is not the real issue for condemnation of the la fée verte, a kind of red-herring, but the extreme potency of the trixy fairy Ethanol is - and needs to be put in some proper kind of context. Even Maignan's view of the "Green Fairy" was ambivalent in the extreme, even diabolical - not a nice faerie.
It is one thing to correct an erroneous point of view about a particular molecule, it is another to wash over the real hazards of another in an [unwitting?] attempt to perpetuate the confused mythological link between being a "Bohemian", the type of boundary dissolution necessary to produce great art - and Thanatos.
Absinthe is becoming cool again. People are trying it to be fashionable and hoping there really is something to the Thujone. In an attempt to be cool, people will: do, drink, eat, smoke almost anything, even things known to be fatally poisonous. To say of Absinthe "... it has not been demonstrated to be any more dangerous than ordinary spirits," isn't much consolation to people whose lives are going down the tube of Alcoholism. At least as Wikipedians we can be honest about this fact to the public.
Maybe some editor more clever than I might come up with the proper verbiage and reference to put into proper context the fact that 11 of 12 of the persons listed were seriously screwed up and self-destructive types and were destroyed by their various addictions, life-styles, and devotion to Thanatos as inspiration for Art - or remove the list. Atani (talk) 21:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
An editor has added Absinthe to the category of Foods Requiring Detoxification. Defined there as "This category includes foods, food ingredients, or food additives which cannot be eaten in a whole or raw state, and may require processing (e.g. selection, separation, soaking, washing, cooking) prior to consumption. This may be due to naturally-occurring toxins which must be removed or neutralized before eating."
There are no toxins in absinthe which are removed or neutralised before eating. There is no processing needed prior to consumption. It is normally recommended to add chilled water or to add neat absinthe to many famous cocktails such as the Sazerac.
However there is no need for any detoxification, so I propose to remove absinthe from this category. Agreed or not? Horseshoe123 11:14, 15 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horseshoe123 (talk • contribs)
I've thought about this as well, and while it is true that absinthe requires no detoxification prior to consumption, the process of distillation is a selective one that excludes unwanted, potentially injurious compounds (e.g. absinthins), so it is reasonable to categorize absinthe accordingly. As such, I've taken no action. Also, this category contains seemingly innocuous foods (e.g. beans, onions), so I don't view it as an attempt to assign some insidious quality to absinthe that doesn't exist.Vapeur (talk) 12:00, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Phoney! Horseshoe123 10:33, 10 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horseshoe123 (talk • contribs)
Good to see that this category has now been deleted (along with another category about Foods causing flatulence!). Horseshoe123 09:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horseshoe123 (talk • contribs)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on Absinthe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
N An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the
|checked=
totrue
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:18, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
"Spirit" is a British term for liquor. I suppose it doesn't matter, given that absinthe is banned in the US and Canada. What if there were an article about gasoline, and the author called it "petrol"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77Mike77 (talk • contribs) 13:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
The article is written in British English. "Spirit" is a word used throughout the English speaking world. Absinthe is not banned in either the US or Canada (read the article).Vapeur (talk) 15:03, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Previous edit: "This was referred to as a rougeorrose absinthe, red fairy, or pink fairy depending on the shade."
While there is at least one one surviving original advertisement that demonstrates the existence of such an absinthe, the reference provided contains no evidence that rosé absinthe was ever historically referred to as "red fairy" or "pink fairy." As such, the sentence as previously edited, which states that rosé absinthe was referred to by such nicknames is purely speculative and without historical basis. Where a contemporary individual may create and/or use such nicknames in a singular webpage remains insignificant where article content is concerned.Vapeur (talk) 03:10, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Absinthe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to trueorfailed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:31, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
The link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Clandestine_Absinthe seems to be broken. The page is still here on Wikipedia, but the link is wrong. I tried to correct it on the Edit Template section, but the correction does not seem to have come through. Any experts know how to fix? Horseshoe123 13:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horseshoe123 (talk • contribs)
Fixed. There seems to be a time lag built into edits of templates. Horseshoe123 08:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horseshoe123 (talk • contribs)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Absinthe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Contrary to the assertion in the entry, there never was a ban on absinthe in the United States. Like any alcoholic beverage the manufacture and sale was subject to prohibition but when prohibition was lifted absinthe became as legal as any other spirit. There was a regulation that required all spirits be thujone-free. Thujone being the substance within wormwood considered toxic. But that never banned absinthe which could be made, and are today made, with the remaining ingredients. Even the term "thujone-free" did not mean without any thujone whatsoever.
The footnote 26 which supposedly supports the article's assertion that absinthe was banned in 1912 for the U.S., if read, does not support that assertion but rather correctly reports that it was banned in France and then leads to an advocacy piece on behalf of prohibition.
The Wormwood Society provides a more accurate explanation of the treatment of thujone under U.S. law at http://www.wormwoodsociety.org/index.php/102-news-and-information/items/187-yes-real-absinthe-is-legal-in-the-us LAWinans (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
The entry is correct and accurate as written. Absinthe was specifically banned in the US in 1912, well before Prohibition was enacted. The verbiage in the original law is clear: http://wormwoodsociety.org/index.php/history-articles/food-inspection-decision-147-the-us-ban-on-absinthe
When the original ban was effectively lifted is left up to speculation, simply because it was never successfully challenged. It was enforced as late as 1934 (after Prohibition), and perhaps later, but this is academic at this point.
"Thujone-free" is merely a concept that is subject to interpretation. The FDA has only in recent years determined that it shall be defined as anything not exceeding 10 ppm.
The phrase, "...and are today made, with the remaining ingredients," is confusing. Any genuine absinthe, past or present, is comprised of a distillate of botanicals that includes its namesake herb, Artemisia absinthium.
Lastly, no spirit is permitted for sale in the US until or unless it receives a label approval, which is the discretion of the TTB. As the TTB rejected the label of any spirit (rightfully or wrongfully) presenting itself as absinthe prior to 2007, an effective ban remained in force until that time. As such, no genuine absinthe was approved for distribution and sale in the US market between 1912-2007, which was effectively a 95-year ban. Vapeur (talk) 20:29, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
There was a ban on absinthe in the U.S of A until regulations on it allowed it to be consumed Malcolm Mak (talk) 05:25, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Moved below.
Although absinthe can and is being consumed should it be necessary to add in locations where absinthe is still banned? Malcolm Mak (talk) 05:27, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Absinthe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
As Pepys is most propably not drinking absinthe I wouldn't queue him with famous absinthe drinkers. However, as he is writing about 'wormwood and sack', it seems to me, that he has been rather drinking some kind of vermouth and that the paragraph at Pepys' is not really absinthe related. One might add a referral on vermouth in this article, nevertheless. 141.89.155.232 (talk) 08:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Absinthe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Propose adding an image of Junod new label to the absinthe revival section. Junod was one of the most popular brands in the 1900. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Junod http://www.packagingoftheworld.com/2017/10/a-junod-absinthe.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by General spirits (talk • contribs) 00:46, 25 December 2017 (UTC)