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Short description: American baseball player (1935–2020)
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Wanted to let other interested editors know active editing to get Bob Gibson's article to GA status is already underway. If somebody beats me to the punch though, I'd like to request an upload of a free-use picture of Gibson for the infobox; the best upcoming opportunity I can think is Opening Day 2011, which I unfortunately don't plan on attending this year. Thanks and cheers, Monowi (talk) 00:15, 9 January 2011 (UTC).[reply]
@Troooth: You have not provided a reliable source. Without one, we can't include it. In any case, grandchildren are rarely mentioned unless they themselves are notable in their own right. By notable, I mean more than just being related to a famous person. See Wikipedia:Notability to get an idea for what I'm saying. Furthermore, if the relative is not a public figure, he (and this includes the son as well) should not be named at all. --DB1729 (talk) 05:39, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bob Gibson has a living grandson. His name is Max, he was born July 7, 2010. The best source of this would be the child's mother and the child himself. Paternity was proven in 2010. Troooth (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The reasoning for the revert was "I don't see how this is important or relevant to Gibson's career; additionally, its a story which may not even be true."
In my opinion, the relevance pertains to Gibson's reputation as someone who threw at batters and took things personally, even beyond his playing career. Perhaps it would be better to create a section dedicated solely to this, or as another example under "Pitching style" where there are other stories about his surliness.
The citations, I feel, are enough to offer veracity. I'm also happy to cite Joe Posnanski's latest book, in which he also writes about this.
Rather than start a revert war, I thought we should discuss it here. :)
Thank you allowing me to explain why I have removed the story about LaCock and Gibson.
I'm sure you can give many sources for this particular account; I have read it many times. It is a story that people love to tell, including LaCock and Gibson. BUT, as with many legendary stories about baseball, I would not put them into a Wikipedia article because, each time, the facts are different.
Additionally, Gibson himself felt - and I agree - that his reputation did not do him justice. He was known to push back on it, in fact (see here: Posnanski interviewed Gibson about it). Contrary to his reputation, he did not deliberately throw at batters. Don Drysdale hit more batters in a shorter career than Bob Gibson did over longer one, for example. So I'm not in favor of making a seperate section with stories like that (I was thinking about removing the Jim Ray Hart story as well - currently searching for a better alternative). Many of them aren't true. Some are exaggerated, in fact, by the very people involved.
And as for why it is not important or relevant to Gibson's career... Where you put the story, it really is not important. The paragraph is about the Gibson's final season and you added in an Old Timers game anecdote AND an interview with Bob Costas, years after these events took place. It just did not fit there. -- Omnis Scientia (talk) 07:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input. I'd like to somehow capture the way Gibson inspired stories like these, in a way that both shows the stories and also shines some truth on them (either the actual facts or simply demonstrating that despite there being many stories they are hard to verify and can conflict with sources like even Gibson, himself). To that end, I've tried to rewrite the "Pitching style" section to instead be "Pitching style and reputation," with an eye on presenting the stories as something significant enough to warrant inclusion in Gibson's article while also capturing the doubt. I'd love your help with finding conflicting accounts to back up this approach.
What do you think of this draft?
--
Gibson was a quick worker on the mound with an explosive delivery, falling towards first base each time he released the ball. He relied on pinpoint control and had a vicious slider and both a two-seam fastball and a four-seam fastball, released with a low, three-quarter arm angle.[6]
He had a reputation as a fierce competitor who was known to throw brushback pitches to establish dominance over the strike-zone and intimidate the batter,[citation needed] similar to his contemporary and fellow Hall of Famer Don Drysdale. Statistically, however, he hit fewer batters while facing more overall; compared to Drysdale, who hit 154 batters out of 14,097 batters faced in his career,[7] Gibson hit 102 out of 16,068.[8]Drysdale also led the league in hit batters 5 times, while Gibson never did (and only once finished in the top 3). As of 2023, Gibson's 102 HBP (hit-by-pitch) was tied for 89th all-time among pitchers who hit batters.[9]
There are many stories attributed to Gibson, either built upon or contributing to his reputation as "mean", a description Gibson pushed back on.[10]One tale frequently told is about his final game, in which he gave up a pinch-hitGrand Slam to the light-hitting Pete LaCock.[11][12] Years later, Gibson would face LaCock in an old-timer's game, and he allegedly beaned him.[13][14] When questioned about this by sportscasterBob Costas, Gibson is often quoted as having said, "the books must be balanced, Robert."[15] (In Joe Posnanski's book Why We Love Baseball: A History in 50 Moments the quote is published as "the scales must be balanced, Robert," casting some doubt about the truth).[16] Other possibly apocryphal quotes about Gibson include, "He hated everyone. He even hated Santa Claus," attributed to Don Sutton, and "The only people I ever felt intimidated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my Daddy,” attributed to Dusty Baker.[17]Baker, in particular, is frequently cited with regards to Gibson's reputation, having also told stories of Gibson angrily rebuffing Baker when the latter tried to say hello, as well as reciting a poem about how to deal with facing Gibson, based on advice from Henry Aaron.
There are also claims that he did not fraternize with opposing players. At the 1965 All-Star Game, Milwaukee Braves catcher Joe Torre caught Gibson in the 9th inning; afterwards, when he complimented Gibson's pitching, the latter allegedly ignored him and merely got dressed and left.[18] Stories also exist that suggest he could be surly and brusque even with his teammates. One told by his catcher Tim McCarver describes what happened when McCarver went to the mound for a conference, and Gibson brushed him off, saying "The only thing you know about pitching is that it's hard to hit."[19]
Gibson disregarded his reputation for intimidation, saying that he made no concerted effort to be intimidating. He once joked that the only reason he glared while pitching was because of his poor eyesight and inability to see the catcher's signals clearly as he did not wear glasses while pitching.[20]He is quoted as saying, “I wasn’t trying to intimidate anybody, are you kidding me? I was just trying to survive, man.” He also said, “I’d like to think that the term ‘intensity’ comes much closer to summarizing my pitching style than do qualities like meanness and anger, which were merely devices. … My pitching career, I believe, offers a lot of evidence to the theory that baseball is a mental discipline as much as a physical one. … The part of pitching that separates the stars from everyone else is about 90 percent mental. That’s why I considered it so important to mess with a batter’s head without letting him inside mine.”[21]Mxbndr (talk) 19:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I think this idea is much better. I do think your draft needs quite a bit of work - a bit TOO long IMO and focuses too much on his reputation and very less on his pitching style, and it sounds more like a story - but, if you add it, I can tweak it up as needed. -- Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I think the shrinking of this section in the recent edits takes away from showing the false narrative built up around Gibson. I'm disappointed, but I don't have to die on this hill. Mxbndr (talk) 22:24, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I PROMISE that the only thing I removed from your draft were the quotes - one was unsourced, the others were lifted out of the article which isn't allowed. Other than that, I removed a few sources which I thought would be deemed unreliable AND rewrote to clean it up. -- Omnis Scientia (talk) 05:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A few quotes which were sourced but the language around it had to be rewritten. I changed Costas' quote - which is from an interview on MLB Network - with what Gibson alledgly shouted.
^"Bob Gibson (SABR BioProject)". Society for American Baseball Research. He would not fraternize with opposing players, even when he played with them in All-Star Games. Joe Torre told a tale of catching Gibson in the 1965 All-Star Game. After the game, as they were showering, Torre complimented Gibson on his performance. Gibson didn't say a word. He showered, got dressed, and left.
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
