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No one did genetical resarch on Illyrians so why try to adopt history of albanians (illyrians) into this pseudo nation called bosniacs, why all this lies . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.33.242 (talk) 06:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Bosniaks are from Illyrian descent. Therefore, back up something factually when you say it. MrBosnia 04:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
100 Years of Russian/Slavic/Gypsi propaganda will have you believe that Bosniaks are Slavic, yet the common accepted knowledge is that North Illyrians (Blonde Europeans) were never driven out of Bosnia by Slavs. Guess what Austro Hungarian empire called Bosnians? Illyrians. The problem is nobody can provide credible evidence that Bosniaks are Slavic, so I'd like to see that word removed from Bosniaks page untill 100,000 Bosniaks are examined genetically. That's fair.
Himler tried to recruit Bosniaks to form his largest SS division, considering what he thought of Slavs (Servs or Serbs) do you think he would have alowed Bosniaks to be the lead in his most feared storm troopers?
Also, why don't you Serbs go and edit the Serb bits, with Serb/Serv words and such instead of other cultures stuff, I don't notice any Bosniaks/Croats/Hungarians/Austrians (some of the nations you've tried to hurt and wish were dead) altering your stuff? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BosnianHolocaustSurvior (talk • contribs) 19:57, 27 October 2007
Actually Bosniacs were recruited by Hitler solely because he knew that they hated the Christian Serbs (enemies of Germany). That's all. Otherwise i;m sure Hitler would have had little regard for Turkophile Muslims that are Bosniacs. Secondly Bosniaks aren;t Illyrians. Pure and simple. They are merely Slavs (ie Serbs and Croats) that may have intermixed with some Illyrians, that subsequently converted to Islam. With the Ottoman millet system, people were not differentiated by ethnicity, but by religion. Serbs fell into orthodox miilet, Croats Catholic, and the Slavs of Bosnia that converted to Islam -> Muslim millet. When the Ottoman empire fell, these muslim Slavs continued to identify themselves as Muslims by nationality, or 'Bosniacs'.203.166.99.230 (talk) 09:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The thing is, you have to realise that the actual Slavic tribe that Serbs belong to is officially called Servian tribe (Serving cast) this was later changed to Serb, you can read up on that independently to find out why. As it happens Servs are famed for their habit of spreading around flat lands because it was easier to cultivate obviously as they are traveling tribe (Bosnia is very hilly). We also know and it is common knowledge that Illyrians were a waring people, and defended their land very jealously. Now as no book or legitimate source mentions a single battle between Servic tribe and Illyrian tribe before modern times, we can safely assume that Illyrians never mixed with Servs in significant proportions. Not to mention the fact that Bosniaks very consistently use the word "Babo" for father, which is an Italian word for father, where as Servs or Croats categorically do not. It would not take much imagination to realise that a particular word for father is passed down from real heritage and not changed easily due to peer-pressure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BosnianHolocaustSurvior (talk • contribs) 14:04, 28 October 2007
From a linguistic point of view, Bosenski of course is a Slavonic language. And it has nothing do to with genes if someone thinks of himself he/she is a Bosnjak/Bosenka. A discussion of genetic features of Bosniaks or of any population of any region makes not much sense in a context of discussion culture. Of course, you may discuss to what extent the genom of an average Slavonic speaking inhabitant of Bosnia in, say, 1900, was different from the genom of an average Slavonic speaking inhabitant of Bulgaria, Serbia, or Russia... but what sense would that make? When Nazis decided that Bosnjaks were better people than others due to lighter eyes and skin, this is Nazi stuff, and we must not continue this nonsense, must we? - We should better delete the topic from this article, or at least discuss it at the end, not in the beginning. Chgeiselmann 19:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC) 9.11.2007, Christian Geiselmann
WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH. MAN YOUR ARE DELUSIONAL. GET REAL, HOW CAN MUSLIMS BE ARYANS- POOR HITLER WOULD BE TURNING IN HIS GRAVE. HA HA . YOU MAKE ME LAUGH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.166.99.230 (talk • contribs) 09:41, 30 November 2007
Problem is, tons of research has been done on the subject, and beyond doubt consistently Bosniaks are Northern Illyrian tribe upon analysis of Y and X chromosomes with a significant Scandinavian presence, much like the Northern Italian tribe. Which explains why when I traveled to Bosnia, Bosniaks appeared blonde and blue eyed, and Serbs appeared dark and black eyed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.67.73.117 (talk) 10:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody have any issues or comments about the introduction? For a number of reasons, it's very important that we get this part right. There have been so many edit wars and arguements over this most basic summary of the topic that it's imperative we find something we can all agree on and stick to if the article is ever to become stable. I think we should all be able to agree on the information presented in it. I would like to add another paragraph in between the current two with further basic information about Bosniaks, but I am not sure exactly what to write. Live Forever 23:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem I have is that the Bosnians are called "Indigenous." I understand this is a sensitive topic, but even the oral tradition of Bosniak people of many families recalls a time when they considered themselves Serb or Croat by ethnicity. i.e. Mesa Selimovic.
There are no problems, there haven't been any edit wars until you showed up. Damir Mišić
You removed this vital part: The term Bosnian is somewhat imprecise in this context, as it denotes all inhabitants of Bosnia (i.e. not only Bosniaks, but also to Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats or anyone who lives there); the term rather being geographical whereas the term Bosniaks distinguishes ethnicity.Damir Mišić
I do not though disagree with your edits but please you removed to much and replaced it with worse and less informative text. Damir Mišić 00:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Damir, I think he(live forever) hit the nail on the head with what he said. :) --Jadran 07:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
But I guess everybody are not as clever as you are! So they NEED the extra explainations and not only to have it explained in the opening paragraph in a shallow way. Bosnjani are the inhabitants of "pre-ottoman" bosnia, the adherents of bosnian church are Bosnjani - historically thought and accepted that bosniaks are descendants of these. Bosnia is most surely an illyrian name - the inhabitants of bosnia have undisputedly illyrian origins according to many local historians - and also western (i.e john fine with others who have mentioned a possibility) - turks greeks what? I will not even ask! No live this time you have gone to far. Damir Mišić
Live Forever, I could kiss you! If i didnt have a wife or kids haha Hvala Bogu someone has been able to hit the nail on the head!--Jadran 07:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"But I guess everybody are not as clever as you are!-Damir Mišić" I assume you are going to include your self in this mix, so how bout i make it simplier for you by putting in bold the points you seem not to grasp!--Jadran 07:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Wow, what a little war in my absence. I didn't forget about the article, just have a bit less time. Since old discussions were archived, let me re-copy something from there and cite sources (something I've never ever seen Damir doing).
Here's http://www.iis.unsa.ba/prilozi/30/30_prikazi_nove.htm an excerpt from theories of renowned Bosniak historian Mustafa Imamović, and I won't even quote less benevolent historians. (Emphasis mine) Duja 09:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC):
So basically, we should remove the word Illyrian from all of worlds Encyclopedias and Dictionaries then, seeing as Duja the Servian admin has decided that we Bosniaks are not permitted to describe our earliest Heritage in the Introduction? Perhaps we aught to clarify with other Wikipedia admins whether we should be allowed to use what was agreed above to be at least Genetic heritage by the opposing arguments? BosnianHolocaustSurvior 17:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no sources at all to say that Bosniaks are "South Slavic" before we make such a claim, "we need to actually verify the research, ensure it comes from reliable sources", before we use this term.83.67.73.117 08:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Are Slavs by any chance 50% Illyrian and the rest Goths and Celts? which is precisely what the genetic evidence has unrevealed that Bosniaks are, with Government based sources. Can we please stop claiming that Celts and Goths are equal to the term "South Slavic", because then we would need to change those entries too. Genetic evidence is perfect for driving passed any agenda and propaganda as it is unquestionable, unbiased and a advantageous way to source a tribe(s) or an ethnic group especially when they are disputed. NeutralBosnian 17:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Should we move this page to "Bosniak people"? I'm intersted in what the rest of you think. The majority of other articles about ethnic groups go by the convention "(singular form) people", including both thus-far featured articles (Pashtun people and Tamil people). I would personally support such a move, but I want to make sure that everyone else would be on board as well. Live Forever 05:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure if that is a smart move particulary since Bosniaks are usually viewed in context with article about Serbs and Croats and I am affraid that renaming this article would somehow set Bosniaks apart from those other arguably related article. On the other hand it would somewhat help with the confusion between BosniansvsBosniaks by differentiating titles a bit more. I would like to here more arguements in favor of the move. --Dado 00:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Dado, it seems not only Serbs and Croats follow the current Bosniaks convention, but Slovenes, Slovaks, Hungarians, Germans, Czechs, Greeks and Poles. There appears to be no overriding reason to change - I don't see how it could help to differentiate more between Bosnians and Bosniaks. Best to keep things the way they are.Osli73 07:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose too. As I see it, the general problem is lack of disambiguation of "member of ethnic group" versus "citizen of" in English language, as well incompleteness of nouns accompanying adjectives. For example, adjective "French" does not have plural noun—"Frenches" is ungrammatical, "Frenchmen" politically incorrect, ergo we have "French people". As many other articles cites by Osli confirm, there are no ambiguity problems with Bosniaks, so we should take the simplest path. Duja 08:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This article goes on at length about the history and culture of Bosniaks, but no references are provided except for "The Peopling of Modern Bosnia-Herzegovina: Y - chromosome Haplogroups in the Three Main Ethnic Groups". Since the aforementioned article contains nothing regarding culuture or history I beleive that we need to expand out list of sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.116.78 (talk • contribs) 07:19, 8 June 2006
I would like to have a domain area expert (i.e. someone with deep knowledge of genetics) perform an NPOV check on the genetics part of this article. It seems that the results of the research are being intentionally misinterpreted to push a particular view point.
In particular, I would like to have someone explain how a frequency of a certiain halo group or a sub-halo group can lead to the conclusion that a given ethnic group is indiginous in some geographic area. My knowledge regarding geneological genetic testing is not very strong, but according to this article http://www.slate.com/id/2138059/ we can not use genetic testing to deterime the origin or our ancient ancestors.
I am disputing the neutrality of the whole,and I can pin-point a lot... What I can see it is just making some stupid remarks about denial of "Dinaric genes"(Theory of mutation... that Dinaric is some creative mutation from Atlantic and Mediteranian antropological type have been long time dead buried in the stupidity of 20 century),and on top of that there are citation about absent of presence in "native"Balcan peoples.From where are they are native?From neolitic settlers?.And where are theories about migrations of Bogumils and Babuns in Bosnia based on real historical events wich can be traced back from Srbia,Macedonia,Bulgaria etc ?.And what is with findings of Semino and others wich have shoved some other meanings of that presence of Dinaric genes in populations in Europe-paleolitic dispersion from Balcan refuge...
The history section is a bit garbeld.
Osli73 14:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Live Forever, about the background of the Bosniak identity I found this pretty interesting article (especially towards the middle part). Basically it seems to assert that there has been a long-standing Bosniak identity but that it has differed quite a lot throughout history - Muslim, Turkish, Ottoman, Slavic and Bosniak. I think entering some of this information might give the article a bit more depth.
http://www.iranian.com/History/2003/November/Bosnia/index.html
Osli73 09:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Rv. Please see talk page.
p.s. Yes, Damir - to answer your remark on my talk page - the Bosnian church and kingdom will of course be mentioned in the history section.
Vrijedne su naročite pažnje religiozne i socijalne prilike ove zemlje prije turskog osvajanja. Većina tamošnjeg stanovništva pripadala je kršćanskoj heretičkoj sekti bogumila. Ovi šizmatici su od XIII stoljeća bili izvrgnuti progonima papa. Čak su pape protiv njih nekoliko puta preporučivali krstaški rat (papa Honorus III - 1221. godine, Gregori IX - 1238. godine, Innocent IV - 1246. godine i Benedict XII - 1337. godine. Inkvizicija je osnovana 1291. godine)Patnje koje su trpjeli bogumili u XV stoljeću postale su tako nesnošljive da su se radi svog spasa obraćali Turcima za samilost, jer su grubi postupci i pritisci bosanskog kralja i svećenstva bili takvi da im nema primjera. Njih četrdeset hiljada pobjeglo je u susjedne zemlje. Oni što nisu pobjegli poslani su u Rim, okovani u lance. Međutim, ove grozne mjere malo su usluge učinile umanjivanju bogumila u Bosni, jer se priča da je ova hereza jednako bila jaka i u 1462. godini.Sljedeće godine, kada je sultan Mehmed II podvrgao Bosnu, tamošnji su katolici napustili svoj kraj. Ključe Bobovca, prijestonice kraljeve, predao je Turcima njegov namjesnik koji je bio bogumil. Pošto su se i druga mjesta i utvrde povele za njim, za jednu sedmicu palo je sultanu u ruke oko sedamdeset utvrđenih mjesta. Mehmed II priključio je i Bosnu ostalim osvojenim krajevima. Otada se više ništa ne čuje o bogumilima. Misli se da su po turskom osvajanju u velikom broju prigrlili islam. Većina je katolika iselila u susjednu Austriju i Mađarsku, a za preostale se misli da su se mnogi od njih poveli za primjerom pređašnjih obraćenika. Neki su Evropljani pretpostavili da je mnogobrojno obraćenje bogumila u islam bilo u početku turskog osvajanja s tom namjerom da se povrate u svoju naročitu sektu, čim im se u budućnosti pruži prilika. Kao dokaz za ovu tvrdnju oni navode da su bogumili, zbog gore spomenutog stradanja i pritiska, našli zgodan put kako će namjerno zanijekati svoju staru vjeru (katoličanstvo), te budući da im se kasnije nije pružila očekivana prilika u povratak, to se napokon namjera njihovih pređa zaboravila. Obično je ovakva pretpostavka samo nagađanje, te se na nju, kao nepobitni dokaz, ne može osloniti. Mi smatramo jačim razlogom to što su bogumili pomiješani s muslimanima bili skloni islamu zbog mnogih tačaka u njihovom vjerovanju koje su slične islamskom učenju. Bogumili su odbacivali obožavanje Marije, ustanovu krštenja i sve vrste klera. Krst su, kao znamen vjere, mrzili. Smatrali su idolopoklonstvom upućivanje molitvi slikama i kipovima svetaca i relikvijama (moćima). Protivno katoličkim crkvama, koje su nedostojno ukrašene slikama, njihovi su hramovi bili skromni i jednostavni. Kao i muslimani, imali su hrđavo mišljenje o crkvenim zvonima, koja su nazivali "satanske trube". Vjerovali su da nije Isus lično razapet, nego da je to bio neki iluzorni lik, te su se u ovom pogledu djelomično slagali s Kur'anom (Njihova je tvrdnja:『Mi smo ubili Mesiju Isaa, sina Merjemina, Božjeg poslanika. Niti su ga ubili niti razapeli, nego im se tako pričinilo.』- Sura IV, An Nisa', 157). Osuđivanje alkohola i sklonost asketskom životu i jednostavnosti spadaju u one sklonosti koje su poslužile zbližavanju bogumila s islamom. I oni su se pet puta dnevno molili. Često su puta padali na koljena i izražavali blagodarnost Bogu. Prema tome, za njihovo sudjelovanje pri molitvi u džamiji izgleda da nije trebalo velike preinake. Ovdje sam sakupio neke tačke koje su slične sa propisima islama, a koje se nalaze u šizmatičkoj sekti bogumila. Međutim, u bogumilskom vjerovanju ima i takvih tačaka koje sadrže formu kršćanskih propisa da ih pobožni muslimani ne mogu smatrati dostojnim za primanje. Dok su zajedničke tačke ovako nabrojene, može se zaključiti da su se uvjerili u potrebu postepenog napuštanja onih vjerovanja koje islam ne trpi. Njihovo vjerovanje, slično dualizmu manihejaca, nije se moglo izmiriti s vjerovanjem muslimana, ali je islam uvijek bio tolerantan (napisano 1913.!) prema ovakvim religioznim rasuđivanjima, samo pod tim uvjetom da ova svoja šizmatička naziranja ne izjavljuje. Turci, da omile svoju vjeru Bošnjacima, po svom poznatom običaju nagovarali su ih nuđenjem svih vrsta materijalnih i duhovnih probitaka. Svima onima koji su prigrlili islam osiguravali su vlasništvo svega njihovog posjeda, a spahije su bile oslobođene od poreza. Moguće je da su mnogi od islamiziranih pripadali plemstvu i bili lenski gospodari, te zbog svoje hereze prema katolicima bili prije lišeni tih prava. Napokon, uključivši se pobjedničkoj vjeri, uhvatili su priliku da povrate svoje vlasništvo. Bosanski su muslimani sačuvali svoju narodnost, te do dan-danas nosili prezimena kršćanska i govorili nacionalnim jezikom. Istovremeno su uvijek bili sa revnošću i oduševljenjem privrženi vjeri. Staro viteško držanje muslimana plemića, predana privrženost islamu, pored njihovog upliva i moći uvijek su na njih svraćali naročitu pažnju. Nekima su od njih povjeravana važna zvanična mjesta. Dapače, između 1544. i 1611. godine, zauzimala su devetorica od njih predsjedništvo vlade.
(T. W. Arnold: Povijest islama, Sarajevo 1989., str: 235-238.)
I feel obligated to correct these serious mis-interpretations on Noel Malcolm and John Fine among some users at wikipedia. Non of these two object that the Bosnian church was predominantly bogomil, if you for example visit Malcolm's Bosnian institute you will see that he writes that: "the Bosnian Church (with its supposedly Bogomil beliefs)". Now I'm not especially good at English I guess, but I do know that the word "supposedly" implies "the most likely" so to speak. But I do on the other hand agree with the fact that there weren't many Bogomils (adherents of the bosnian church) left when the turks came, simply because they had been practicly forced to convert to Catholicism and in a much smaller extent orthodoxism. But we also know that these "bosnian catholics" in most cases remained true to the bogomil-bosnian tradition but "officially" changed to catholicism to avoid persecution - these bogomil bosnians - who officially recognized themselves as catholics - were the same who took Islam. So catholicism is a later part of bosnian history - bosnian church is earlier than that. First bosniaks were bogomils, then "catholics" and muslims in general. Damir Mišić
I've removed the POV tag. I'm sorry, but I honestly don't feel that one user pushing radical, unrecognised, fringe opinions into a perfectly fine article justifies a tag that implies the information in the article is significantly disputed - it's not. User Damir Mišić is the only one continously disputing and (I'd even say) disrupting the development of this article. Opposed to him are essentially all users who have been involved in this article over the past few weeks, including users Duja, Dado, Jadran, and others. His edits all substantially change the core information of the article to make it something completely different, and all his allegations and concerns have been thoroughly refuted on this talk page. His claims are ridiculous and should not be allowed to drag this article back. Live Forever 21:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
As a genetic researcher I find the info added her on trivial and not realy scientific. There is no such thing and it would be wise not to alter history to fit political ammo.
I'm sorry if I seem a bit too inquisitive - that 5,000,000 Bosniak figure seems a bit too large. What are the sources for it? This is odd, as the figure on Croats has also jumped to 9,000,000... --PaxEquilibrium 22:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The map is errorous. It shows a Bosniak major region on the south of Kosovo. --PaxEquilibrium 21:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I see objection to what percisely is errorous - well, the fact that it shows a Bosniak-populated region at the south of Kosovo (when there is no such). --PaxEquilibrium 15:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The article considers anyone who registers as "Muslim by nationality" or even "Bosnian" a Bosniak. If they wanted to be nationally known as Bosniaks, then they would've declared themselves as such. Would it be appropriate if we put on Croats article [+Bunjevci, +Shokci, +Krasovani, etc...] or on Serbs article [+Gorani, +Montenegrins, +Krashovans, or God forbid +Macedonians]? Also, who came up with the 100,000 elsewhere in the world fiugure? --PaxEquilibrium 20:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem in this paragraph :
"It is believed that Bosniak identity was lost among these people due to Turkish assimilation laws in the late 19th and 20th centuries. Bosniak immigrants to Turkey were required to change their names to Turkish or Turkish sounding ones(under the Law on Family names). As a consequence of this, today some Turks do have somewhat Slavic sounding surnames. However some also have entirely Slavic surnames, the most common one probably being『Kiliç』spelled in Turkish as compared to the Bosnian version which is spelled "Kilić"."
"Kiliç" is a popular name in Turkey and it is Turkish. It means "sword" and does not have any linguistic relation with the Bosnian word "Kilić".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilic
Mesa Selimovic, was a muslim by religion, but by ethnicity he declared himself a SERB, AND NOT A Bosniak Many Serbs declared themselves Turks during the Ottoman occupation, but that is the language of the times and not an accurate description! George Washington isn't called a Brit in modern times, now is he?
Mesa is a SERB as he traced his family line to pre-ottoman Serbs and opted to return to his roots! Respect a late man's passion for his nation.
I think that's because he looked like a Roma Gypsi which is what prediminantly Serbs look like, so he realised that religion isn't as important as Tribal heritage, due to Modern religions being a very new thing in the Balcans region. 83.67.3.166 16:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
After reading this article, I am confused about what 'Bosniak' entails... To be Bosniak:
Personally, I believed (not so sure anymore) that to be Bosniak one must (1) have close personal ties to Bosnia, (2) have Muslim/Arab/Turkish etc. roots, and (3) also practice Islam. If one does not practice Islam, but has close personal ties to Bosnia, they are Bosnian, not Bosniak. And also, since Bosniak entails an ethnic group, ethniciy is strongly dependent on ancestry. Therefore, one who has Serb, Croat, Italian, Spanish, etc. ancestry, but is Muslim, and feels a strong personal connection to Bosnia should not call themself Bosniak.
Am I right? Am I wrong? Correct me if I am. (Especially regarding the religion part). What are people's opinions? Any atheist/agnostic Bosniaks here who want to expand on their take on this? Stop The Lies 10:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies
Isn't Bosniac more correct than Bosniak - it is that way in all official records, including the English version of the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina. --PaxEquilibrium 19:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I would to ask what the single form of Bosniaks is in Bosnian. I need to translate this name using its sound. In Chinese (and Japanese, etc), singles and plurals are not denoted by something like adding an s in English, but rather using number words or whatever.--Fitzwilliam 12:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
January 2007 (UTC)
EGO Just draw parallel between Switzerland and Bosnia. There are no SWITZERIANS,there are French,German and Italian linguistic and ethnic groups. I understand that it is dificullt for muslims from Bosnia to admit their Serbian or Croatian background. They are like part of river cut from mainflow. But i advice all the people to read history and not pseudo-history. And it is sad that borders of today are not drawn neither historicaly neither by ethnicity. It is important to have in mind that Bysantian ruler-Konstantin the 7th named Bosnia(land around river of the same name) explicitly state of the Serbs. Name of the state could be taken from ethnical(Croatia,serbia,England) or geographical(Switzerland,Moldavia,Austria,BOSNIA) background. Those are the facts that are well known and not hidden in some pseudo-historical lectures. After all,we are all one people torn apart by religion(which wrote the most of the bloody and sad pages in worlds history. Zanimljivo je sto Hamburski Nijemac uopste nemoze da razumije Nijemca iz Bavarije ali ipak zive u istoj zemlji,imaju stardandizovan jezik i obojica kazu za sebe da su Nijemci.Svakoga ko moze procitat ovo ja smatram svojim bratom a za kraj parafraziracu Andrica:Tko ti iskopa oko?Brat.Zato je rana tako duboka i krvava.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Me%C5%A1a_Selimovi%C4%87"
Taken from the article:
Bosniaks belong linguistically to the wider Slavic ethnic group, but their genetic make-up is however more complicated than that. Bosniaks are mainly descendants of pre-Slavic indigenous Illyrian tribes and, to a significantly smaller extent, Slavs, Celts and Germanic tribes (Goths) who spanned the Balkans for distinct periods.[citation needed]
Sounds like original research/myth. Please provide a reliable source for that claim. Duja► 11:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Okey Duja let's go and visit the Origin of Serbs article and take a look at what it says. Dubble moral? I will erase some "facts" frome there and all by using your "reasons" Ancient Land of Bosoni
Duja listen, why don't you allow me to write this text-piece (without a "cite") when you agree with the pretty much same statement in the serbian article (without a cite)? I'm starting to believe this is a missunderstanding. Ancient Land of Bosoni
Image of Zlatan Ibrahimovic duly removed from the article. What purpose does it serve, anyway, apart from being a POV-edit-war magnet? Is there an image of traditional costume, sevdalinka band or similar? Duja► 09:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to make small protest about a certain point made in the article. There are several points where it is implied that "Muslims" (Muslimani) and "Bosnians" (Bosanci) are Bosniaks who just haven't realized it yet. This smells of the same kind of nationalism used by other parties in the Balkans to claim that Bosniaks are converted Serbs and Croats. As a person from Sandzak, I can testify that many of my friends still living in Priboj, Novi Pazar etc. call themselves Muslimani or Sandzaklije. There are many cases of this, and many simply don't identify with the Bosniak nation! Muslimani were recognized as a constituant people of yugoslavia. Negating their existence has no place in an encyclopedia.
Example.
"However, some of them still identify themselves as "Muslims" or "Bosnians", according to latest estimates" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.229.211.59 (talk) 15:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
Shouldn't this article be under "Bosniak" or "Bosniak people" to be more consistent with other ethnic/nationality articles? I favor "Bosniak" myself because it also makes linking easier. Cool Hand Luke 22:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I'm currently mediating a case into which this article is involved.
Every editor can see how's going the mediation and voice his opinion here.
For a successful mediation, I need to hear every position and its arguments.
In order to keep mediation-related stuff all together, I prefer if we discuss on the mediation page rather than here.
I'm at your disposal for every question.
Happy editing,
Snowolf(talk)CONCOI - 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
"Bosnian Muslim", it seems, is in no way offensive, and by far the most widespread term used in English. Former Anon 06:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I was wrong here because Britannica spells it "Bosniacs", but nevertheless, it's often qualified with a "(Muslims)" or "(Bosnian Muslims)", so the term can't be as obscure as it's being made out. Google hits for "Bosniaks" or Bosniaks is almost five times lower than fon "Bosnian Muslims", so I think a source is vital for those claims.--Domitius 08:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
See International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia Prosecutor v. Radislav Krstic - Trial Chamber I - Judgment - IT-98-33 (2001) ICTY 8 2 August 2001. If "Bosnian Muslim" is an outdated term why was it used in 2001 in the genocide trial? Wtnsses like General Halilovic use the term "Bosniak", but English is not their first language and it is not clear if what they said is a translation or their words. But in the court records the phrase "Bosnian Muslim" is used from Paragraph 1 (the Introduction) onwards.
If the term "Bosnian Muslim" was still current in 2001 when did it become "antiquated"? If the sentence about being outdated in English is to be kept in the article there needs a [[WP:|verifiable]] reliable source --Philip Baird Shearer 21:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The links do not seem to work please could you check them. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
You had missed out www in the URL. The source does not say to use "Bosnian Muslim" is an antiquated term. Further it is not clear if the CIA are describing a universal truth or a term within their publication. I think you would have to consult the Oxford dictionary to determin if the usage of "Bosnian Muslim" was "antiquated" (or thought if this were to the case it would probably use the term "archaic" rather than "antiquated"), but it is not going to say that as the term is still in use. For example the BBC uses both terms. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
It is your opinion that it is outdated. The English language is not the French language there is no right and wrong with the use of words. The OED records usage, and the word/phrase is in current widespread use. For example the websites of the four major broad sheet london based newspapers return in a Google search:
It is not up to Wikipedia to set the trend in these issue but to present the facts as they currently are. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you want to go there (Wikipedia:Naming conflict) because we are not discussing the page name and if we were you would have problems with that section "Proper nouns" because it says "# The most common use of a name takes precedence; If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;" More to the point, is my re-write of the disputed sentences OK? --Philip Baird Shearer 18:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Serbs and Croats are ethnic groups that derived from different slavic groups and so are the Bosniaks. They derived from Serbs and Croats by changing they're religion and tradition. Just because this happend in more recent history doesn't make the Bosniaks less of an ethnic group. You conservatists can't accept the fact that history is changing and new ethnic groups are being created, just because a type of people have been around longer doesn't make all sorts of closly related people the same as them.
Welcome dear Pejman47. Would you mind explaining this revert of yours? What exactly was the weasel word? Your edit comment did not make much sense to me. I added fact templates, yet they were removed with no reasons assigned. What's going on? You've never edited this article before, how come you "suddenly" turned up? Were you following me or perhaps did "someone" ask you to come? I look forward to having an honest conversation with you to agree on how to do out bit to make this article better.--Domitius 19:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the unrelated (to the subject) medieval preferences regarding Medieval Bosnia.
P.S. Why are those that self-declare as Muslims listed on the article as well (as Bosniacs)? --PaxEquilibrium 23:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I came to the discussion page to ask the very same question. If they wanted to be Bosniaks they could have simply declared as such. --Methodius 12:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no historical "Bosniak" people like the article pretends with pseudohistorical data and dubiosly reinterpreted facts. Todays Bosniaks are nothing else than former-yugoslav "Muslims" who took this name for political reasons during the 1990th. To claim anything else is simply an attempt to falsify history and facts. -Noirceuil 12:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, not to mention that the article classifies the Kotromanovic dynasty as being Bosniaks, when they had always called themselves SERBS! Tvrtko Kotromanovic was king of "Serbs and Bosnia" in the 14th century, there is no mention of "Bosniaks" until the late 20th century... -Revolucija 11:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
My issue with this is that later on in the same sentence, parenthesis are used to note that Kosovo is a province of Serbia, so here we have parenthesis used twice in the same sentence to imply different things. I also don't think it's really necessary, because we could simply use the appropriate/specific terms later on to avoid any confusion. Please see the article Bosnia (region) to understand why using Bosnia to mean Bosnia-Herzegovina might be misleading. Live Forever 23:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I find estavisti's edit summary a bit dubious: so the thoughts/actions of his own son are unimportant, but the opinion of one contributor to a nationalist Bosnian croat website (i.e. the source used on the Mak Dizdar wiki article) sets the standard for validity? Once again, it'd be useful if editors familiarized themselves with a subject before reaching out for straws to satisfy preconcieved notions. Mak's son, Majo - a notable author in his own right - makes no qualms about his, his father's or his family's ethnic identity. He's a frequent contributor to/participant in Bosniak cultural events[6] and organizations[7], and he's long worked to solidify his father's status in the Bosniak literary tradition[8]. The wiki article you reference for denying his ethnic identity was recently reverted based on a nationalist publication from Tudjman's Croatia in 1996, where one Mr. Karihman reaches some wild conclusions about the inherent "hrvatstvo" of Dizdar's forrays into medieval Bosnian culture and other literary work. Hell, the source goes as far as naming him a "founder" of Herzeg-Bosna, the same Croat para-state that eventually ethnically cleanes his hometown and community during the wars of the 90s. Wikipedia doesn't have to give equal validity to sources, and I believe it's pretty clear which one holds precedence. Live Forever 01:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Removing this line and adding it to footnotes is a bad idea. No one checks the footnotes. The idea is to have it shown right away when someone is sent here after typing in "Bosniac" into the search box and wondering why they wound up at "Bosniak". If you seek to shorten the Lead Section (which I think is a good idea), the second paragraph could probibly go elsewhere in the article. I was thinking about how to move it but wanted to wait for some of the other issues to be settled here first. Fanra 20:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
In recent days, user "Philip Baird Shearer" has been questioning the "term Bosniak", as he calls it. First off, Bosniak is not a "term" nor is it a "recently constructed name" - Bosniak (and Bosnia) have historical land founding roots back to the early middle ages. BOSNIAK is a historic ethnic designation for people who stem from Bosnia. User "Philip Baird Shearer" has however been insisting on the highly inappropriate term "Bosnian Muslims", note: this is (in contrast to Bosniak) truly a TERM and not a historic NAME/ethnicity. This term came about in the 60's during a period when Yugoslavia and Bosnia were heavily dominated by serb/croat nationalist interests. The nationalist and communist serb and croat officials frankly denied Bosniaks as a people, despite that this people is the first one recorded to inhabit the Bosnian state, if you read the article you will see that BOSNJANI (Bosniaks, in old Bosnian language) are the first recorded people of modern Bosnia. And if you further read the 'Bosnians article' you will see that bosnian croat and serb nationalities didn't exist in Bosnia prior to the 19th century. Now "Bosnian Muslims" is an inappropriate term that the west ADOPTED from communist Yugoslavia, despite that this state was not based on human rights - the way the west handles and handled Bosnia is a disappointment of great magnitude, compare for example how the kurds in turkey were called "mountain turks" by turkish officials, I haven't however yet seen any western media use this designation. What I am trying to say is, Bosniaks are a people/ethnic group that are defined by the fact that Bosnia is their motherland and their common language is Bosnian - and NOT that their majority religion happeneds to be Islam -Bosniaks have existed even prior to Islam, as any normal humanbeing could suspect (see Bosnian church). And still one should not forget that Bosniak (and Bosnian language) is a name that is protected by the Bosnian constitution and international law. The fact that MEDIA uses a false term is no reason to call it appropriate - media is famous for missguiding people and facts. User philip baird shearer says that none of his friends nor he knew about bosniaks until he read wikipedia - well Philip, we live in a time when Bosniaks almost became extinct - something which was prepared for already in the sixties by giving Bosniaks the name "Muslims" in order to undermine them as a distinct people and instead designate them as merely a religious group. Politics aren't simply black or white, remember that. Nor is it a good characteristic to be morally equivavelent all of the time, sometimes neutrality automatically serves the purpous of the perpetrator. In the future you should double check all the Bosnian facts that you might hear from croat or serb users, I have noticed that you enjoy to engage in discussions with these people. Ancient Land of Bosoni
“ | The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. | ” |
AFAICT the OED does not have an entry for Bosniak it has an entry for Bosniac:
To be in line with the OED should this article be moved to Bosniac? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:42, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
As for the rest of your statements, if the page was moved to Bosniac, this page would redirect to it, so all your points about links and other articles here is not of any concern. As for your statement that "outdated dictionary definition and constitutional court", you need to show us that OED is outdated, since although there is no official body that decides what is proper English (unlike French), the OED is normally considered the best source in the world. As for the Constitutional Court, legal bodies, especially ones that are based in Bosnia, are a good place to look for a good source.
An important thing to remember is that a major problem with this whole article is that we can't find any reliable sources about the word Bosnaik (or Bosnaic). If you can find some, please link them. Again, if we have two sources that say Bosniac, and zero that say Bosnaik, wikipedia policy says go with Bosniac. Fanra 06:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
hi everyone,
(thought I'd open this for discussion rather than put up a 'contradictory' tag or anything)... but it seems a bit contradictory that the article starts by defining the term Bosniak in a certain way, but then describes a couple of paragraphs down that the meaning is disputed by scholars and that the article has essentially 'chosen' a certain definition.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to *begin* the article with that dispute, rather than (seemingly) taking a side on it straight away...?
Cheers Jonathanmills 12:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The term used in this article to define "Bosniak" is the generally accepted one. If it is not, please cite us some sources and we can try to fix it. Otherwise, the Lead sections should continue to say what they do and the minority view point is covered below it. Fanra 01:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
While no one can deny the existence of Bosniaks now, this article does clearly illustrate the origins of Bosnians
They way it reads now, it is as if Bosnians just 'sprang out of the earth'.
In fact, Bosnia was one of the slavic medieval 'states' that formed in the 7th centruy AD. THe northern states of dalmatia and pannonia were croatian, whilst raska and doclea were Serbian. Bosnia, as well as frontier realms along the adriatic like pagania and Zahlumje were populated by both Serbs and Croats.
Given its midway position, Bosnia was liable to attempts by both Serbs and Croats to consolidate their realms, i.e to include Bosnia into their Serbian and Croatian kingdoms. However, this was never fully achieved as the both kingdoms were too fragmented by power struggles which occurred in their 'core' territories. At the same time it's position made it insulated from Roman and Byzantine inroads, as well as foreign conquests
After the croat and serb kingdoms fell in 12th century or so (to hungary and Byzantium, resp) , Bosnia's nobles seized their chance to hold power for themselves, and infact grew their land at the expense of Dalmatia. AT this point of time, people in the balkans did not really identify along ethnic lines, but rather linguistic and religious.
Bosnians spoke Serbo_croatian, although i know many Boaniacs, Serbs and Croats will argue and try to find single word differences as 'proof' for the existence of different languages.
For reasons pointed out above, many people living in Bosnia failed to really identify with either catholicism nor orthodoxy (and in fact the Bosnian bans changed their religions from catholicism to orthodoxy, and vice versa according to situations).
When the ottomans invaded, the Bosnian bans converted to Islam to enjoy social and economic privillages at the hands of the oppressive regime. Subsequently, the majority of the peasant masses in Bosnia did so too (although they enjoyed only slightly less oppression compared to christians). These people became 'Bosniaks' . THey identified themselves as muslims above all else (as is the Islamic doctrine), and in censi they called themselves 'Muslim' by nationalilty rather than Serbs or Croats. Thus the 'origin' of Bosniaks.
Yet some remained catholic and orthodox, and thus became to be known as Bosnian croats and serbs, resp.
Those who remained Catholic or Orthodox did not "become" known as Serbs or Croats, they continued to be known as such while the Muslims created the new ethnicity, Bosniak.--Revolucija 19:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, They were always Serbs and Croats. I mean they are now referred to as "bosnian' serbs and croats because they now live within the borders of a state - BiH- with a majority 'ethnicity' being Bosniak.
No that is not what I meant, at all. Please re-read the discsussion. My main arguement was that Bosnians was merely a geographic term referring to the inhabitants of medieval Bosnia. The terms Bosniak, Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb then were constructed during and after Ottoman times. I think user Revolucija's theory is there was never a bosnian ethnicity, they were all either Serbs or Croats that happened to live in Bosnia, some of which converted to Islam, hence became known as Bosniacs, whilst the rest remained as Serbs and Croats. This is not my belief though, for several reasons. Back then , people were not educated enough to have a sense of ethnic-based nationhood. They only identified with the church. Since neither Orthodoxy nor Catholicism were strong in Bosnia, it was easy for them majority of the to convert en masse to Islam. Some that were deeply Catholic or Orthodox remained so, and identified as Croats and Serbs, respectively. Now, how Bosnians saw themselves as before the Islamic invasion is a matter of controversy. Croats will say they are croats, Serbs will say they are Serbs, and Bosniacs say they were always Bosnian. One can produce heaps of historical 'proofs' which can be interpreted either way. Does it really matter anymore anyway ? Probably not. Truth is, they are more similar than different. Hxseek 14:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It is utterly ridiculous to state that Tvrtko I Kotromanić and Katarina Kosača-Kotromanić were "Bosniaks" in any way, as the House of Kotromanic was ethnically SERB and geographically BOSNIAN but certainly not Bosniak. To include them on the list of prominent 'bosniaks' is in direct odds with all common sense, with all historical facts, and also with the House of Kotromanic page on Wikipedia itself.
Please take the Kotromanic members off this page as "Bosniaks are typically characterized by their tie to the Bosnian historical region, traditional adherence to Islam, and common culture and language", seeing as how the Kotromanic Dynasty was most certainly NOT an adherent of Islam and they did indeed speak Serbian Cyrillic and not the language of the Bosniaks, which is now called bosnian.
--Revolucija 23:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. THe medieval history of Bosnia is essentially serbian, +/- croatian. While it would be approppriate to include the Kotromanic dynasty in an article about 'Bosnia', it should not be poached into an article about 'bosniacs'. Kotromanic were not bosniaks, although they lived in bosnia. Bosniak history begins in the 16th century or thereabouts.
Can;t the second paragraph be simplified and made to sound smoother ?
Something like:
' Bosniacs are classified as a south Slavic people. Genetically, they are descended from the mixture of Illyrians (the inhabitants of the area since ancient times) and the Slavic tribes which migrated to the Balkans in the 5th and 6th centuries; as are all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. Thus the main distinguishing feature between Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats is not ethnicity (or language for that matter), but religion and an often independent history. '
The places of Turkey and Switzerland must be changed in the "Regions with significant populations" section. Check external links to understand what's going on.
Here, we can clearly see Muslim Bosniaks attempting to show their cultural ties to the medieval Bosnian state. I don't take issue with that so much as the fact that the word "Bosniak" today implies Muslim Slavs from Bosnia, who comprise about 48% of the total population. King Tvrtko was not a Muslim and so wouldn't identify as "Bosniak", and their was Kraljica Katarina-Kosacha (she embraced the Roman Catholic faith during her later years). Granted, they were both Bosnians, but that word means something entirely different. Ideally, both historical figures belong on the template found on the Bosnians page.
The point is, as much as "Bosniak" and "Bosnian" once meant the same thing, i.e., an inhabitant of Bosnia regardless of ethnicity, today Bosniak means something very specific, and to imply that pre-Ottoman historical figures like King Tvrtko and Queen Katarina shared the same ethnicity as modern Muslim Bosnians is politicizing history, to say the least. Perhaps all people from Bosnia once belonged to the same ethnic stock, as some Bosniak intellectuals claim; I do not dispute that here, nor do I really care about that question myself. Leave that debate to nationalists, as far as I'm concerned. However, we cannot apply a very politicized term like "Bosniak" to ancient historical figures who lived long before notions of nationhood and nation-states prevailed in Europe.
I would take issue with someone attempting to prove Tvrtko a Serb or a Croat the same way. Please, stop tampering with history.
I moved the following from the article for discussion. Only the English version should be in the article, and then only when sourced and rewritten so that it makes sense. As is, I'm not even sure what the editor is trying to say:
Bosanski jezik
Isto tako više od 7 miliona Bošnjaka živi i na prostorima Turske , to su Bošnjaci kooji su za vrijeme povlačenja Turaka, zajedno sa njima otišli u svoju drugu domovinu. Turska i Bošnjačka kultura, vjera i jezik su veoma slični. Što se tiče starobošnjačkog jezika, on obiluje sa mnogo turcizama, koji su se i dan danas zadržali u kućnom jeziku bošnjačkog naroda.
Englis language
Also, seems like that more than 7 milions of Bosnian populatione lives in Turkey. That Bosnians are go with Turkeys in Turkey during the 1904-1910 , in them second country - TURKEY. Turk's and Bosniak's cultures are very seems. Turk's are get in Bosnia with new religion, coulture and language. Bosniak language are very seem's with Turkey language, i meen, old-bosnian language.
--Ronz 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Over 7 million Bosniaks live even in Turkey. Those were the Bosniaks, who during the time of Turkish rule, went together with the Turks to their second home. Turkish and Bosniak culture, religion and language are very similar. Concerning the Old Bosniak language, it contains many turkisms, of which were kept even today in the language used in the homes of the Bosniak people.
--Montenegro Interactive 15:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The article is written from the perspective that Bosniaks are Slavic Muslims. If you disagree, please discuss rather than edit-warring. Thanks! --Ronz 19:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from ouright racist remarks like that. One cannot distingush between a Serb and Bosniak by mere appearance Hxseek 02:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
It is completely erroneous to suggest most Bosniaks are blonde haired/blue eyed. The fact is, Bosniaks, are, and always have been Slavs. Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Macedonians, Slovenes all have similar physical appearances. So please try and distinguish the Bosniak nation by other means, such as their unique culture; not all this pseudo-scientific "Bosnaiks are really Scandinavians" crap. Frvernchanezzz 07:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed several repeated attempts at conflating Bosnian historical figures with Bosniak Muslims. Steccak tomb stones relate to Bosnian history and the folklore of all three peoples, not just Bosniaks. Likewise, King Tvrtko was a Christian monarch. If you wish to say that Bosnian history only pertains to modern Muslim Bosniaks, then come right out and say it. Otherwise, stop tampering with history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.39.246 (talk) 23:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm tired with repeated number inflation in infoboxes, not only for Bosniaks, but for other peoples as well. I'm reverting to the old version of the infobox, which was referenced from at least semi-proper sources (no, I'm not checking the refs yet again).
As for Bosniaks in Turkey, we've been here numerous times before: yes, there were large waves of emigration, especially in 1878-1925. No, most people of their origin cannot be counted as Bosniaks anymore; few of them speak the language, not all are even aware of their origin, and Turkish census apparently doesn't count them as such. At best, they're "Turks of Bosnian origin" now. It is duly noted in the text, still uncited. Take it out of infobox please. Duja► 08:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Ancient Land of Bosoni, please stop trying to "prove" they are not Slav, as you have failed before you even begin. Ethnicity is all about a shared language, culture and customs - it has nothing to do with genetics. Inserting second rate sources from obscure figures stating that Bosniaks have some "Illyrian blood" doesn't mean they aren't Slavs. Obviously any ethnic group from the balkans is going to have some Illyrian in them, since all the migrants mixed with the indigenous tribes - it's not as if newcomers just exterminated everyone already living there. You don't need to keep trying to "prove" that Bosniaks are a different people than Croats and Serbs; They are different, OK, we get it, we accept it, and we understand it. So stop inserting these ridiculous theories akin to Nazi eugenics. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 05:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
This is what you want inserted into the article (I have bolded what I object to)-
Bosniaks belong per linguistics to the Slavic ethnic group, but their genetic make-up is a mixture of Slav settlers and descendants of pre-Slavic indigenous Illyrian tribes. [1][2]. For example, the prominent anthropologist John J. Wilkes regards Bosniaks (and Bosnians in general) as the direct descendants of Illyrians[3]. In addition, Celts and to a lesser extent Goths who spanned the Balkans for distinct periods, often encountering Illyrians, may have influenced today's Bosnian population.[citation needed]
I propose we have the following -
Bosniaks belong to the Slavic ethnic group, but their genetic make-up is a mixture of Slav settlers and descendants of pre-Slavic indigenous Illyrian tribes. [4][2]. For example, the prominent anthropologist John J. Wilkes regards Bosniaks (and Bosnians in general) as the possible descendants of Illyrians[5]. In addition, Celts and to a lesser extent Goths who spanned the Balkans for distinct periods, often encountering Illyrians, may have influenced today's Bosnian population.[citation needed]
Note that I am willing to keep your source, but I advocate the removal of "per linguistics", as it is redundant and oxymoronic. And i propose the replacement of "direct" with possible. Please give me your opinion on this proposal. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 06:16, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I accept! Deal! Ancient Land of Bosoni (talk) 06:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Not so fast please. Bosoni, since you're fast to scream "vandalism", please be so kind to provide a relevant citation from the book. I'm just reading it at the Google books, but only the pages 254-255 are fully available. Bosnia is mentioned several times throughout the book, but even less prominently in the chapter 9 you're citing. Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, as the vast part of Illyrian culture mostly died out before 1000 AD, and the people who live on that soil certainly do have "Illyrian blood", whatever that means. Actually, being born in Bosnia as child of a Serb and a Croat, whose ancestors are also born in Bosnia as far as the collective remembrance goes, I claim that I have more noble Illyrian blood than you.
Frankly, I'm tired of all those "genethic origin" theories, and propagation of myths which have no grounds for anything. Ethnicity means culture; Bosniak culture is based on Islamic traditions and Slavic language. The whole "genetic makeup" is, complete bollocks, pardon my French. Duja► 08:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Obviuously Frvervnchanezzz is a far more patient man than I, coz i would merely say that Anceint Land of Bosoni is living in a world of folklore and pseudoscience. Nothing he says is credible. EVERY Yugoslav has some Illyrian blood. What absurd thought would make you think that for some reason Bosnia is an oasis of Illyrian ethnic purity (we all know how mixed the Balkans are! ). So absurd that i don;t even know why the other could editors are even entertaining this joker ? ! No one has shown that Haplo I actually equates with "Illyrian-ness". In so many articles we are saying Croats have say 35% I1b, whereas Serbs have only 20 % , which means Croats are more Illyrian, blah blah. We cannot make such pseudo-scientific oversimplifications. And Bosniacs having gothic blood ? Now we are stretching it. There is no evidence to suggest this, apart from the fact that the goths roamed across eastern europe at one time, before moving into Italy. So even if a few Gothic families were left behind, their contribution to any modern cultural or even purely genetic component would be so miniscule as it is not worth a mention. Lets be realistic please fellas. Bosnian Serbs and Croats know that they are pure and simply Serbs and Croats. Why do Bosnian Muslims think they have some 'magical' genetic origins? Just because this is an article about Bosniacs, it does not mean that we have to please one or two nationalist editors so it reads the way they dream their heritage to be. This is an encyclopedia, and we must pursue good standards , free of nationalism. If all else, just use your commonsense. We should not try to intentionally delineate Montenegrins from Serbs from Croats from Bosnians. Dare I say (and i don;t apologise for upsetting all you nationalists) but they are ALL the same, or at least were originally, but hundreds of years of diferent religions and different foreign influcences have created (slightly) different cultures. So yes, if we define an ethnic group by culture, they may be considered different now, but they are all of the same origin -south slavs (that is why Yugoslavia was created in the first place, and was even going to include Bulgaria). Hxseek (talk) 10:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Not that such a blatantly hate-filled statement even deserves a response, but I will nonetheless show how wrong you are. The Germans did not wish to exterminate all Slavs. Many Slavs were recruited into the SS- Slovenes, Croats, Czeques, etc. The Bosniak involvement stems from Germany’s awareness of the tensions between Bosnians muslims and Christian Serbs. Thus they saw the Bosniaks as potentially useful pawns for their war against Serbs (their particular hatred for the Serbs stems from WWI and the Serbs refusal to comply with their demands in WWII). Unfortunately for the Germans, the Bosniaks proved to be of little utility- they surrendered at the first sign of Allied victory. The only feats they managed to achieve was the murder of thousands of Serbian civilians. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Bosniaks are not the Aryans of the Balkans, the Germans certainly did not think of them such (in fact, by definition- Muslims can never be considered Aryan). They are just the same as every other South Slav. Pseudo-scientific and racist observations such as “Bosniaks are blue-eyed and blonde” will not prove your cause. Hxseek 03:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Please add all the typical nationalist Serb agenda's and arguments which can be used as to categorise some of the hate-driven comments in this article. This is aimed at identifying and stopping quickly the hate in this article.
For example I will add a few (please continue them on in an orderly fashion):
NeutralBosnian 16:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
If Bosniaks feel they are victims of Serb/Russian hate-filled agenda's then that's what they feel.NeutralBosnian 20:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
They are not my personal views, Bosniaks permit NATO on their ethnic lands, which proves that they do not consider Western powers as holding hate-filled agenda against Bosniaks. On the contrary, Bosniaks are very grateful for NATO military help and Western help in general. NeutralBosnian 20:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
And this is exactly what this topic is aimed at cutting down on. :WP:BATTLE, :WP:SOAP and so on. As it is obviously trying to discourage Anti western and anti Bosniak Propaganda, battles, and unprofessional comments based on belittling Bosniak and non-Serb/Russian heritage and perspective. By the way, not every non-Russian perspective needs sources. We can't just have one sided Russian view on everything who Bosniaks consider as an enemy. Please see Pan-Slavism#Modern_day_developments for some pointers. NeutralBosnian 10:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
This is not the place for such discussions. There are many discussion boards and other such forums on the internet to engage such topics. Article talk pages are for discussing the article and related issues, not for a general forum-style discussion of the subject and related topics. Vassyana (talk) 13:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Bosniaks Talk pages is probably better than the alternative war/battle on the article pages. I'd rather this sticks around to remind people what Bosniaks consider hate directed at them, so that those can be pointed toward this section if they are exhibited in other sections, which will reduce volume of text. As you may have gathered over the years, religions have been missused by polititians in Balcans to gain power. I speak as a neutral and proud Agnostic Bosniak. Which means I do not favour any biased perpectives from that region. 209.151.236.27 (talk) 18:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey. I'm not giving a third opinion, but I'm adding some text that was added to the 3O page. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 19:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
User Ronz seems to be very unreasonable and uncivil, with active deletion of any content which doesn't favour Slavophile agenda. In that biast direction Ronz has dismissed and therefore insulted famous anthropologist and any possible Bosniak perspective. There is space for everybody's point of view, not just the Slavophile one. I have tried to reason with Ronz and have given up. Ronz has repeatedly Spammed and Vandalised Wikipedia pages which I tried to retrieve because they were repeats of topics already discussed and resolved in previous archives. I suggest Admin action on this. Please see Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Ronz and Talk:Bosniaks. NeutralBosnian 18:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I propose it remains here as a pointer to disruptive entities in the article, due to so much of it.83.67.3.166 (talk) 23:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I am also for this to be kept protected untill everybody calms down, and becomes aware that not only violence and Slavophile agenda is valid. Please try to be neutral and the perspective should be from Bosniak perspective and not from Slavophile because Serb and Russian media claim that Serb soldiers were the victims in Srebrenica which is insane to most. http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/ 83.67.73.117 (talk) 16:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
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There is a contradiction in the article. It says "Most Bosnians are Muslim". Earlier on however it says that they are only 40%, and therefore constitue perhaps a plurality rather than a majority. Therefore I kindly request the admin to replace the words "Most Bosnians" to the words "A plurality of Bosnians" or something to those lines.Tourskin (talk) 05:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Not all Bosnians are Muslim, but most Bosniaks are Muslims. Whether or not they are practicing Muslims is irrelevant; they still belong to the religion - I doubt all 1 billion Catholics go to Church every Sunday, but it doesn't stop them from being counted as Catholics. Frvernchanezzz 11:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
You're not listening though - the sentence is Most Bosniaks are Muslim - this is 100% factually true - whether or not some (or even a significant minority) Bosniaks are not Muslim is irrelevant, as the majority are. Frvernchanezzz 07:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)