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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved per WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. Miniapolis 13:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fußball-Bundesliga → Bundesliga (men) – per WP:UE. The German game is universally referred to simply as the 'Bundesliga'. The word 'fußball' isn't English and in any event is redundant Ohconfucius ping / poke 09:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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I accept that 'Bundesliga' would be sufficient, but I was put off it slightly when I saw the plateful of spaghetti there. But now that it all seems to be crystallising around the simple name 'Bundesliga', I move to support that. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 16:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' , then sign your comment with ~~~~ . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
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Comment Why not just "Bundesliga" rather than "Bundesliga (men)". I think if disambiguation is required, it's better to use the formal (current) name, rather than adding something at the end which isn't part of the name. The (men) part isn't needed to disambiguate it from the women's league, as the official name of that includes "Frauen" (the men's league does not include the word "Männer"). Number 57 16:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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'Oppose Bundesliga is far to ambigious a title given the number of Bundesligas in Germany and Austria, of which the football one wasn't even the first one. Calistemon (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support move to Bundesliga, no more no less, not per WP:UE so much as per {{WP:UCN]]. If disambiguation really is needed (and I doubt it--are any other leagues really referred to as Bundesliga in English?) it should either be natural disambiguation (in English, naturally!) or through an English word in parentheses, not like this. Red Slash 22:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support move to "Bundesliga" - even though there are numerous leagues with this name, the German men's football league is by far the most significant one, a clear primary topic. This is similar to the situation of the "English Premier League" and the "Spanish La Liga" despite there being other "Premier Leagues" and "Ligas". Green Giant (talk) 03:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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As I have pointed out below, the so-called "English Premier League" is actually just called the "Premier League", and it is the only Premier League to do so (similar to The Football Association), so it is erroneous to compare the Premier League with the Fußball-Bundesliga in this way. As for La Liga, I don't think it should be at that title myself, as La Liga technically refers to the Liga de Fútbol Profesional, which has two divisions; the proper title for La Liga would be Primera DivisiónorSpanish Primera División. – PeeJay 14:09, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support move to Bundesliga. Tony (talk) 08:31, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support move to Bundesliga. This is the most commonly referred to term for this football league in the English language. Calistemon's oppose is fair but with a simple hat-note, we can cover that to a dab page. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support move to Bundesliga, and move the current Bundesliga page to a disambiguation. Canuck89 (talk to me) 07:59, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
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Another comment Where would this move leave 2. Fußball-Bundesliga and 3. Fußball-Liga? I'm a bit concerned that we'll end up with inconsistent title styles for linked organisations if this goes through. Number 57 14:06, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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There are active requests on both of those. Check WP:RM. --BDD (talk) 16:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose - from a football POV, this is an obvious support, because the German men's league is the most significant of the football-leagues known as Bundesliga. Though I'm a little concerned whether this subject is actually the primary topic of Bundesliga, given the large number of sports-leagues in Austria and Germany that is named Bundesliga. And yes, according to WP:UE, the name should be "Bundesliga, just like any other league on this list. Mentoz86 (talk) 21:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose – The argument that『Fußball』is not an English word and should therefore be removed doesn't hold for me because Bundesliga is not an English word either. There are lots of Bundesligen and I would prefer to get a disambiguation page when looking for "Bundesliga". --Jaellee (talk) 22:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Yeah, but per all the sources I've provided below (and I can provide more, in a flash), Bundesliga is expected to refer to the football league in the English language. This is English language Wikipedia, after all. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Certain words do migrate into the English language. Bundesliga seems to be one of them, as this ngram shows, its use accelerates from about 1990, and I believe it is a word that in English, is used much more strictly than the corresponding term in German to refer the German federal football league. In other words, in its move from the German language, it has lost its generic nature and become a proper noun. Sushi wasn't an English word until about 1978. Then we have the word 'debutante' – French word meaning simply "beginner (feminine)"; it's meaning in English is much more specific. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 23:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose - nomination is flawed and nominator seems to lack a basic understanding of German football in English. There are far too many leagues called 'Bundesliga', no evidence this is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. GiantSnowman 12:29, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Well, it's not gospel, but a search on just "Bundesliga" in Google gave nothing but football for as long as I could be bothered to page across, including sources like www.bundesliga.com (the official website), Fox Sports, BBC News, Sky Sports, The Guardian, FIFA, Eurosport, ESPN, UEFA.... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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I cannot understand why GS would want to frame this as an "ignoramus vs expert" (my words) discusison, for WP:COMMONNAMEisexactly about what the layman would identify the topic as. Even those who habitually edit the article seem to agree that the name 'Bundesliga' is the most commonly used. Now with the help of n-gram, it can be established that 'Bundesliga' is streets ahead of any other term; 'Fußball-Bundesliga' is simply flatlining, losing out even to 'German Bundesliga. I'd like to see some evidence from GS (or anyone other opposer, for that matter) as to why 'Fußball-Bundesliga' is the common name or primary topic in English.
As to the assertion that there are other 'Bundesligas', it is highly contestable that these are talked about at all as 'Bundesligas' without qualifiers in the Anglophone world – that is, if they are talked about at all ;-). The Austrian counterpart is named, surprise surprise, 'Austrian Football Bundesliga', and not 'Österreichische Fußball-Bundesliga'. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 22:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose - There are too many sports that use the name "Bundesliga" for their primary leagues in Germany. Plus, there is also an Austrian Bundesliga for a number of sports too. Although the German men's football league may appear to be the top use of the term "Bundesliga", it is too generic a term to be specifically ascribed to any one subject. – PeeJay 13:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment I'd argue that Fussball-Bundesliga is no more a clear identifier of the German men's game in English than Bundesliga used alone. At a push, the article could be named 'German Federal League (men's football)'; I've certainly heard that term being used. However, 'Bundesliga' or 'Bundesleague' are well-enough used in the English-speaking world that anyone who watches (but not necessarily hooked on) Eurosport or Sky Sports will know 'Bundesliga' refers to the German men's footbal' game. I have no idea what they call it in the US, so please enlighten me. The European stations may occasionally qualify it with "German" and/or "Football", but nowhere do we ever see "fussball" as the prefix in Anglophone Europe, and I suspect even less so on the other side of the pond. So let's disabuse ourselves of the notion that 'Fußball-Bundesliga' is unambiguous and the best we can do to make our titles English. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 15:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Regarding what they called this league in America, it's referred to as "German Bundesliga" by ESPN, "Bundesliga" by Fox Sports, "Bundesliga" by The New York Times... Out of interest, "Bundesliga" is used by Italian sports paper Corriere dello Sport, "Bundesliga" by The Sydney Morning Herald, "Bundesliga" by Pravda, "Bundesliga" by Times of India and "Bundesliga" by China Daily. Just a quick sample of what the rest of the world thinks the German top-tier of football is commonly referred to. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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"Bundesliga" is also used exclusively in relation to football in these sources: Bangladesh, Norway, South Africa, South Korea, Argentina, Canada, Latvia, Jamaica, Portugal.... Let me know if you need more. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Are these already all listed in the soccer/football sections? If so, it may be redundant to list football twice which is why it's not included. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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These are all links straight from Google when I typed in "bundesliga". I don't know what you're getting at, but the point is that in all these countries, "bundesliga" means football first, and perhaps something else second. Sure, in Germany and Austria it means something else, but this is English Wikipedia, not German or Austrian Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose per GiantSnowman. – Michael (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Odd considering so much evidence has been provided to support the fact that this is the primary topic. You have no comment on that? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support without the qualifier. Bundesliga is the most common name in English and we don't need the men qualifier as the German men's football league is the most popular Bundesliga. Eldumpo (talk) 20:33, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose Bundesliga is a generic term used for many leagues in German-speaking countries including, but not limited to football. This is evidenced by the existing Bundesliga page. It's not like the term Premier LeagueorLa Liga, which is only ever used in relation to the top flight of the sport in those two nations. There is no evidence that this is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The only thing that might make it even remotely close to that is the popularity of the sport itself and may be one of the only German nouns known to many English-speaking readers.
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In the English language (and this is English language Wikipedia), as I've shown above, there's plenty of evidence that this is the primary topic. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Also, I'm very concerned that there is no move discussion template on the article itself. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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You've also forgotten these Premier Leagues.... But still written in English. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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The difference here is that the Premier League is the only one that calls itself just "Premier League"; all the others have some sort of disambiguator built into their official names, which solves the problem for us. In the case of the Bundesliga, however, all of them disambiguate one way or another, so we may as well use the official names. – PeeJay 14:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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The better question, though, is what the league is called in English. And the league's own English website uses "Bundesliga" alone, with not a Fußball in sight except for the copyright statement. --BDD (talk) 15:10, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Exactly, this is English Wikipedia, and we use common names (in English) here. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support - other Bundasligas exist, but apparently the German top football division is far and away the most searched-for, qualifying as a primary topic, much like Premier League. As there, a hatnote with link to dab page would suffice. C679 07:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion[edit]
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Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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