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Talk:Close front unrounded vowel

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Just a comment about the Swedish superscripted [j]. It's there because the Central Swedish dialect this is spoken in happens to feature this specific kind of diphthong of long [i]. The transcription has been taken from a Swedish-language textbook on phonetics, so it's not my own idea.

Peter ^Isotalo 23:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen superscripts used for diphthongs but I've changed it to just j, not superscripted, because I'm not a big fan of superscripting for diphthongs (especially with j since it looks like patalalization. I've seen people correct /j/ in diphthongs and use /i̯/ instead, but from my understanding, they're the same thing. AEuSoes1 00:32, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, "fan" or not, I'm going to insist on the transcription actually used by Swedish phoneticians. It's superscripted because it's a diphthong specific to Central Swedish, not a separate phonological segment.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:14, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In narrow trascription [j] is a consonant, not a vowel, so [ij] would not be a diphthong. kwami 23:26, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In all transcriptions [j] is a vowel-like consonant, which sort of blurs the distinction between vowel and consonant. If you really want to, you can use / ;/, but as for the superscripting, it is simply a convention that those authors have used to represent a diphthong. As far as I know, there is no phonetic difference between /i^j/ and /ij/. I've never seen /ij/ used to represent a vowel and "a separate phonological segment." AEuSoes1 08:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In Swedish the difference does exist, even if diphtongized [j] is not a phoneme (Swedish is virtually void of phonemic diphthongs). Rendering the words frie /friːɛ/ "free" (masc. def. adjective) and frige /friːjeː/ "to set free" with the same [j] is not a satisfactory representation. The sound in the adjective is merely a byproduct of the long vowel while it's an actual phoneme in the verb and pronounced much more clearly and (mostly) with more frication. This is also evident when comparing with true /js/-sequences such as mejsel /mɛjsɛl/ "chisel".

And [j] isn't really representing a diphthong the way they appear in German or English, since there is often very clear frication in the Central ίSwedish sound, even when it's just due to a long [i]. One could probably describe it even better by using [ʝ]. We're not being overly orthodox about IPA-usage when describing various /r/-realizations, so I don't see why this can't another acceptable non-standard usage standard.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure that πίνω means "to drink" (infinitive)? I don't know modern Greek, but in old Greek it means "I drink" (or "I'm drinking": present indicative). 82.57.95.229 01:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In English, the citation form of a verb is the infinitive. In Greek, it's the first person singular of the present indicative. FilipeS 22:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This vowel is almost universal, in fact, it would probably be better to show what languages don't have this sound.Cameron Nedland 13:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! That's a good point. A non-occurrence section might be a good addition. What languages don't have this sound. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's just it, the only one I can think of is Abkhaz.Cameron Nedland 14:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I thought of that too, but Abkhaz apparantly has [i] as an allophone of one of its two vowels. This could get tricky. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Crap, you're right. Maybe we should say it's universal...02:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Since you asked, Amuesha (Amoesha, Yanesha) supposedly lacks any High vowels, giving it /a e o/ Io Katai 13:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to this dictionary, [i] is an allophone of /e/. But good try. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so you were right, I guess I missed that one. Looking a little further, I would suggest the Cheyenne language, which has /a e o/ as vowels, whereas [ɪ] is an allophone of [e], but [i] isn't attested. - Io Katai 07:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Why is Finnish not listed here? The Finnish phonology page says that i is a vowel in Finnish. Suomi ends in i.--TDKehoe (talk) 22:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]