Early centers of Christianity was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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per my comments above I do not mind this article's title as long as it is understood that origins of Christianity redirects here. This means that there should be at least an "Origins" section detailing the "prehistory" of Christianity, i.e. the period predating the Apostolic Age, say 200 BC to 30 AD.
it is also unfortunate to cast the development of Christanity exclusively in terms of its Jewish roots, since it has "inherited" at least as much material from non-Jewish Hellenistic currents. The scope of this article, as opposed to the Early Christianity one, should clearly be to trace the evolution of this syncretism of Jewish messianism and Hellenistic mystery cults of the "Osiris-Dionysus" variety. In this sense, Christianity rather than being a simple "split off Judaism" is a "bastard child" of Asian and European religions as it could only have developed in the Roman Empire, where the cult was rooted in European paganism, but anything "oriental" (Egyptian, Chaldean, Persian, etc.) was considered extremely mysterious, in fact not unlike the status of Eastern religions in modern New Age spirituality. --dab(𒁳)13:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the following should, with sources, be inserted in its proper chronological order, not before "Apostolic age":
Hellenistic religion obviously predates the Apostolic Age.
For argument's sake, let's simplistically assume that Christianity is a syncretism of Jewish messianism, Neoplatonism and Gnosticism.
All three of these have a history predating Christianity. Thus, the "Origins" section needs to discuss
the above list would cover the main structure of a properly developed WP:SS article on the "history of early Christianity" (= "early history of Christianity")
--dab(𒁳)15:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A minor clear point first: "Christian monasticism before 451" goes well beyond the period of "early Christianity", which is taken to mean before 325 (First Council of Nicaea). Then, was Coptic Christianity so different from the rest of Christianity within the Empire before 325? Apart, that is, from its strong development of monasticism, which has its own section.
On the following questions I have no clear ideas. Is it really appropriate to consider all of this, if treated in any detail, as coming under what we normally understand as the history of Christianity. Should the questions be dealt with instead in one or more separate articles, with at most a link from here? What is the point in having an article on early Christianity and another on the history of early Christianity, when the first seems not to confine itself to ideas and the second to events? Would Dachmann's ideas fit better under "Christianity" than under "History of Christianity"? Should they be put in a separate article not headed "Origins of Christianity" (which is too easily interpreted as referring to the events that occurred) but something like "Formative influences on early Christianity"? Lima (talk) 16:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I realize of course that Christian monasticism before 451 includes in its scope the "not-so-early" period of 325-451. It's still "early", and we certainly don't want an early Christian monasticism article distinct from it.
I am unclear on your distinction of "events" vs. "formative influences". How are "formative influences" not "events"? History proceeds by events. An accumulation of numerous events of the same gist tend to give rise to "influences".
The whole mess is a result of a well-meaning but ill-advised move request back in January 2008. See above.
I appreciate the point that "Early Christianity" can be considered a religion in its own right, as opposed to post-Nicean Christianity mostly simply known as "Christianity". This makes "Early Christianity" more than just an "early history of" article, and this one a generic "history of $RELIGION" article.
This article was split from Early Christianity after referencing and expansion. Similarly, material was split from this article to the Apostolic Age article for similar reasons.[1] I see no problem with splitting off the origin section in a similar fashion after some referencing and expansion. --Vassyana (talk) 18:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Moved Christianity in India (Outside the Empire) to Apostolic Period[edit]
(per Talk:History_of_Christianity#Moved_.27Christianity_in_India.27_to_Apostolic_Period...) That Thomas himself came to southern Indian himself is clearly disputed by some. There is not even any evidence here that it (Thomas coming to southern Indian himself) is a majoity view-- but even if it is the majoity view, it is not necessary or desirable to put this under the "apostolic period," because the text certainly discusses events after Thomas. Indian Christianity is more than Thomas Christianity, and Thomas Christianity developed its distinctions after Thomas.
AND, more importantly... even if this text was just events concerning Thomas himself... it would still need to be under the "Spread of Christianity" section because it is, and will always be, more about the spread to India via Thomas than about anything else Thomas did-- or even others did after him during the time covered by this article. There is not even detailed records of such other events-- and if there-- we would not be able to include such other material.
The main reason you give is that 'it is disputed by some'. So what?? Why should you give so much importance to those 'some'. Don't you know the fact that there are lots of historians who confirm the fact that St.Thomas landed in South India. Moreover the Saint Thomas Christians belong to various denominations and all of them share the same opinion that Thomas landed in South India. Also several Popes have asserted the origin of south Indian Christianity from the Apostle Thomas.
This clearly is not a neutral point of view. This is in favor of the people who dispute the arrival of St.Thomas to South India. How can that be neutral!
OK let me make a suggestion. Move the text to 'Apostolic Church' with minor edits. Instead of saying "Christianity arrived......." change it to " It is believed that Christianity arrived along the southern Indian Malabar Coast by Thomas the Apostle in 52 AD and from this came Thomasine Christianity. These Syrian Malabar Nasranis kept a unique Christian identity untill the arrival of the Portuguese in the 17th century."User:Rahuljohnson4u (talk) 13:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover the text was originally under 'Apostolic Church'. Somebody changed it without any discussion. So there is nothing wrong in reverting it and keeping it back under the 'Apostolic Church'. Please do not revert it just because you are not in favor of it. And please do not give silly reasons like 'it is disputed by some'. I am only moving it to it original position. User:Rahuljohnson4u (talk) 18:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, the original state was like this— with none of this text. Stop reverting even if you disagree. You may remove the text entirely while we discuss, but I didn't think you would mind leaving it in the article somewhere— where it has been most of the time since being added. These corrections were made without "without any discussion" mainly because the text was added in the first place without any discussion. If you do want it removed entirely instead, go ahead. Carlaude:Talk20:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rahuljohnson4u, you seem to be muddling the reasoning I use here and at History of Christianity-- for example you posted the same reply on both pages but it only makes sense there at History of Christianity. I propose we work on just one discussion first (either you chose) and then the other (if it is still called for) later. Carlaude:Talk14:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Comment Part of the problem with this is that the naming convention is not obvious to the search box. Why not move to "History of Christianity, Era" style naming convention? Jclemens (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken the liberty of just fixing the problem since there seems to be a tide running against the proposed titles. Here's where I see the consensus running
Of these, the second would be more in fitting with the two immediately preceding it. However, "modern age" has a meaning which is different from "contemporary Christianity". The "modern age" was succeeded by the "post-modern age". I'd like to hear what other editors think the best title for this article would be.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This section is very biased towards Rome and the western empire. Rome is just one center of the Early centers of Christianity. I tried to improve the situation but was reverted, so I say goodbye and good luck to those who value NPOV and care to fight typical wikipedia stupidity. 75.15.193.175 (talk) 18:28, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I find the notion from the statement "the new religious group" in the article slightly misleading. The Jewish synagogue in Antioch was not a new religious group, but rather a transformed one. It was the entire Jewish community that became adherent to the Nazareene strand. Suddenly the Jews of the city opened their congregation for Greeks and others. What we call christianity was rather seen as a realisation of the old Judaic mission. --Xact (talk) 22:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi,
Just noticed that the end of section 2.3.1 Judaism and Christianity repeats six lines of text from the previous part of section 2.3 Apostolic Age, starting from " The Council of Jamnia..."
178.103.130.1 (talk) 00:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
by broader scope I meant that the "History of early Christianity" at least makes some mention of other Christianities (considered heresies). The "Early Christianity" article makes no mention of any alternatives to the Proto-Orthodox church - it's perspective is closer to History of the Catholic Church with emphasis on doctrine on Baptism, the Sabbath, Organization, etc. - I think that merging the two would make for a long, unwieldy article - it might be better to merge "Early Christianity" with "History of Christianity". Epinoia (talk) 14:29, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't really see that problem. "Early Christianity" obviously implies "History of the early Christianity", doesn't it? Why can't the mentioned content in History of early Christianity, including that which you mentioned, be merged into Early Christianity? If anything, doesn't your comment seems to confirm that you would support that solution, since you disapprove of the current state of Early Christianity? "[I]t might be better to merge 'Early Christianity' with 'History of Christianity'". Fair enough, but then the question about the article name remains. Why choose the longer version, seemingly contradicting WP:CONCISE?Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:17, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I am still ambivalent about this. I think the two articles have a different focus, Early Christianity on the beliefs and practices of early Christians and History of Early Christianity on the development of early Christianity. It is not unusual to have two articles like this: there is a Protestantism article and a History of Protestantism; there is a Catholic Church article and a History of the Catholic Church; etc. - and I haven't seen a clear reason why the two should be merged - there is some duplication in the Spread of Christianity section, but otherwise they seem like two distinct articles - I don't see the advantage of merging them - but if there is a consensus to merge, I am ok with it - so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of support - Epinoia (talk) 22:02, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Chicbyaccident: - sorry to seem obtuse, but I don't understand what you mean. (I'm not trying to pick a fight here, or be obstructive, I am sincerely working in good faith, but I need a definite reason to support this change) - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 01:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Epinoia: Both the Catholic Church and Protestantism are existing phenomena, but with history. They both merit separate articles with two different scopes; general scope and history scope. Whereas Early Christianity is altogether a historical concept and as such merits only one article with one scope: the history scope of it. To illustrate: how meta does it have to be? Do we need History of historiography of Early Christianity? I mean, you could theorerically argue for it, but wouldn't one single article with one single history scope suffice? Meaning that the article Early Christianity deals with the history of Early Christianity, the history of the historiagraphy of Early Christianity, the history of modern historiography of Early Christianity, the history of medieval historiography of Early Christianity, controverses of historiography of Early Christianity, the archeology of Early Christianity, and everything else pertaining to Early Christianity, collected in one single article called: Early Christianity?Chicbyaccident (talk) 06:48, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Chicbyaccident: - I still think that Early Christianity describing the beliefs and practices of Early Christians deserves an article distinct from History of Early Christianity, an overview of the development of Early Christianity - analogous to the automobile - we have an Automobile article describing the mechanical device, and a History of the automobile article, outlining the development of the automobile - there are hundreds of similar examples - Epinoia (talk) 16:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Epinoia: Yes, but again, the difference is that Car is an ongoing, present, alive subject. Then it merits a separate "History of" article. But that is, again, not the case with Early Christianity. We only have Christianity in the Middle Ages for the same reason, and no "History of Christianity in the Middles Ages" on top of it because that is redudant for the same reason as "History of Early Christianity" is redundant when we already have "Early Christianity", since that includes - or rather is - History of Early Christianity" implicitely. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:44, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Agree with Epinoia. While conceptually History is a subset of the institution, at this point it merits it's own article specific to that particular aspect. And that doesn't even begin to address length. To merge all three articles as suggested would result in one in excess 225,000 bytes, which is arguably too long for to be be read and too large to be easily loaded on older browsers (per WP:AS "Total article size should be kept reasonably low, because many readers use low-speed connections including dial-up connections, smartphones, and low-end broadband connections.") The Historiography article alone is over 100,000. Such a merge would inevitably end up with the article being split. Mannanan51 (talk) 01:03, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I redirected this article to Early Christianity because it was a word-for-word copy with some passages deleted. The two versions have been drifting apart over time and need to be resynchronized as when one copy has been improved the same improvements have not been made to the other copy. This sort of copying does not follow Wikipedia:Summary style. If "history" was to be split off from "Early Christianity", as opposed to beliefs and practices and schools of thought, there should be a single "History" section in "Early Christianity" that summarizes "History of Early Christianity". If that's going to happen, the text between the articles still needs to be synced up. I would argue, though, if "Early Christianity" is too long, it would be a lot easier to simply merge it down into Apostolic Age and Ante-Nicene Period since the content is already neatly split up, and redirect it to History of Christianity#Early Christianity. But again, before that could happen the text from History of early Christianity needs to be synced up with it. During the sync-up process there's no point in having two nearly identical articles, one of which is missing a bunch of paragraphs; readers would benefit most from having one copy, especially if anyone is making any further improvements (which I've actually been doing as I go along). -- Beland (talk) 05:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They are not and were not ever supposed to be the same topic or the same article. If you want to merge or delete one you need to gain WP:CON to do that, beforehand. tahcchat05:20, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The scope of these two articles has always been a point of discssion. This article started as a split-off from "Early Christianity," under the name "Origins of Christianity." It was renamed "History of Early Christianity per Talk:History of early Christianity/Archive 1#Requested move, with the argument Origins of Christianity → History of early Christianity — Matches the Christianity/History of Christianity pattern. Yet, the other three articles on the history of Christianity, as mentioned at Talk:History of early Christianity#Move/Rename, have all dropped the term "history of," and simply became "Christiatity in late Antiquity" etc.
And the usefullness of a distinction between the beliefs of early Christianity and it's history has also been dicussed from the start. "Early Christianity" covers a period of three centuries; the beliefs developed during this time, and can't be separated from their historical development. "Early Christianity" is, almost by definition, the same as "History of early Christinaity." They cover the same topic.
And, indeed, synchronising is a problem. So, for the sake of consistency, as part of a series of specific articles on the history of Christianity, "Early Christianity" and "History of Early Christianity" should be merged; they are not separate topics. So, please, go ahead, and merge. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk!06:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The intention of History of early Christianity was cover events as they leads to further events throughout the time period; to cover change within the time frame.
The intention of Early Christianity was cover more the traits of the religion over the whole time (1) to the degree it was stable within the time frame and (2) in contradistinction other religions and other time periods of Christianity.
Sometimes article become more and more similar because Wikipedians copy something the have for one article into as many others as they can. We not necessarily have to keep both articles but we do need to divide up the topic sufficiently to keep the articles size well below 100K in length. Also-- detailing crap from outside the time frame will also not help. That is why we have the other articles. tahcchat16:22, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Joshua Jonathan that the distinction between what changed during the period and what is stable is a difficult one to apply in practice to this topic, and probably not helpful to readers. Currently the Early Christianity article contains both, intermixed. A more logical division into subarticles would be to follow the existing structure and the length can be easily reduced by merging details down into Apostolic Age and Ante-Nicene Period. -- Beland (talk) 17:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That would indeed be the most reasonable option. 'Stable traits within a timeframe' may be fond in creeds, but not in history; nor can those "traits" be distinguisged from events. The first primary sources (the New Testament) attest to a variety of opinions and beliefs within earliest Christianity, most notably the inclusion of Gentiles; what's more, it's exactly this divergence of beliefs that led to the change of earliest Christianity as a "sect" within Judaism, to a gentile religion. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk!18:32, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I will sync them up first so the merge-down only has to be done once; the whole process will definitely take a least a few days. Apologies in advance for any mistakes and rough repairs, as the articles are long and the diffs complex (which is also why it's slow going); I'm sure the result will benefit from other eyes. -- Beland (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]