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A fact from Environmental damage caused by the Israel–Hamas war appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 29 May 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk pageorWikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
Comment: I'm very open to revising the hook, the research by Forensic Architecture states that "What’s left is devastation... an area that is no longer livable...", I think this is a really important point to get across but not sure how to include it in the hook.
@John Cummings:, I started a review, but didn't get past the first section. I understand that this is a delicate subject, but the opening fails Wikipedia:NPOV. Can you rework the opening section so it a little less "pointy"? --evrik(talk)21:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hievrik thank you for looking at the article, I realise it is an emotive subject. I believe the intro to be a fair summary of the events and have used the same descriptors for the events as the sources, especially the academic study to try to make the article as accurate as possible. However there are limited sources available given the blockade and ban on journalists entering. I can't find any sources which despute that the destruction has happened or who destroyed the farms and trees. There are some more sources to go through but they mainly focus on the health impacts of the destruction. I've included the only quote I can find from the Israeli government in the body of the article. Can you tell me which words/phrases specifically you think are not balanced and how you would go about changing it? John Cummings (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Evrik: (I appreciate I'm butting in, but the page is on my watchlist) I'm not seeing hyperbole in the article, grim as it is; some specifics would be helpful for progressing the article. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I edited two items in the article. It looks like the suggestions made here have been implemented and the article is as neutral as it can be. The article has the correct inline citations and it is both long enough and new enough to qualify for dyk. The hook is confirmed, in the article, and interesting. I prefer ALT0 as it introduces the word ecocide which is the subject of the article. The nominator has done a qpq. Regarding the stability of the article - it appears mostly -stable, just the nominator and myself have edited it today. Earwig has been down for me today so I have spot checked sources and did not find evidence of plagiarism. Bruxton (talk) 01:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Offering the above spare hook. I think a hard fact about the destruction works best for the hook. Any characterization of the conflict works better in the article. Rjjiii (talk) 03:50, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bruxton honestly I really dislike this solution, all the sources are very clear on the source of the vast vast majority of the destruction which is Israeli forces using bulldozers and bombs. It currently reads as passive voice with no information on who is doing the destruction. I understand the number of bombs has been taken issue with, my strong preference is:
Keep in mind that WP:DYKHOOK says The hook should include a definite fact that is unlikely to change. Hooks that talk about a specific number of trees destroyed in an ongoing conflict can't possibly meet that requirement. RoySmith(talk)12:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiRoySmith thanks for explaining this, the fact Israeli forces destroyed them and that they have been accused of ecocide I think both meet that requirement. 13:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiChipmunkdavis, to take each part of the sentence and quote from the source in『s:
that Israel's : 』Israel’s onslaught on Gaza’s ecosystems has made the area unlivable" and "satellite data that Israeli military activity had destroyed more than 65 sq km, or 38% of that land"
systematic :『Samaneh Moafi, FA’s assistant director of research, describes the destruction as systematic.』and "The effects of this systematic agricultural destruction"
using bulldozers and bombs : "farmland destroyed by bombs and bulldozers"
has been described as an ecocide? : "led to calls for it to be regarded as “ecocide” and investigated as a possible war crime"
One related question, is it possible to use a second link in the hook to further provide sources? I feel like this is is sufficient but others also state facts to back up the statement as well.
HiChipmunkdavis thanks, can I check that you agree that all the invidvidual facts are supported by the source now? Could you describe what you think is synthesised? And what is "something else"? I feel like this sentence is an accurate summary of the facts. Thanks again, John Cummings (talk) 14:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have put details in the discussion at WT:DYK which I would ask you to refer to, but in general if your hook is trying to connect five different points it is unlikely to be accurate. Another example, not covered by WT:DYK, is you are claiming all 38-48% (not a small range) of the destruction is due to systematic bulldozing and bombing, while in actuality that is the total destruction caused by all actors and actions in the war. CMD (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiChipmunkdavis thanks for your reply, its got a bit difficult to keep track of everything when its spread across two pages. Can you say which part you think is unaccurate taking these 5 facts from the source? I know that there is some wood taken for firewood, however this and the other sources are clear, the vast vast majority of the trees have been destroyed by Israeli military "satellite data that Israeli military activity had destroyed more than 65 sq km, or 38% of that land". Would you be happy if the phrase was changed to 'more than 38% of trees and farmland' rather than '38% - 48%'? This would make it a direct quote from the source. My understanding of the % range in the information is simply that no one is allowed to enter Gaza to measure the destruction so the researchers made their study through remote sensing and that the amount of trees used for firewood is negligable and includes trees already felled by Israeli military. John Cummings (talk) 14:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The synthing together of the five facts is the issue, not the individual facts. I suggest picking one in particular, and making a hook about that (although not the bombs and bulldozers one, that's mostly a dramatic turn of phrase, especially as we know they also used tanks). Looking at the article, 38% and 48% are actually separate points, 38% is from a study of farmland, 48% is specifically tree cover, two distinct albeit overlapping measurements. CMD (talk) 15:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiChipmunkdavis, thanks for your reply, I'm unsure how I could use only one of the facts and make it a full sentence. Thanks for the suggestions about separating the tree destruction and farmland destruction and catching the use of tanks, I've integrated that into a new Alt. John Cummings (talk) 15:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@John Cummings: I am not approving any percentages in any hook. This is an ongoing war, and those figures will date, if they haven't already done so. I would also expect a prepbuilder to WP:DYKTRIM it anyway. If you're alright with the shortened ALT3a:
HiLaunchballer I understand your concern about the percentages, can you tell me what you feel the issue is with the other part you removed 'using tanks, bulldozers and bombs'? I'm not aware of a rule that would suggest this should be excluded. Thanks again, John Cummings (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiLaunchballer, thank you very much for the explanation and link. Honestly I think that the method of destruction is important conext for people to understand what is happening. I've fixed the article to explicitly say bulldozers, several new refs have become available in the last weeks. The sentence "that Israel's systematic destruction of trees and farmland in Gaza using tanks, bulldozers, bombs and herbicides has been described as an ecocide?" fits below the 150-160 recommended max. I'm ok with going with the shorter version if that is the only version that will be accepted but I think it misses really important context on the varied methods used to achieve the systematic destruction. Thanks again for your help, John Cummings (talk) 13:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean it does now check out, so it's fine by me. I can tell you that WP:CLUMPs of references are discouraged, and one of them (the Famine section) would deserve {{clump}}. I also notice that that section is a single-sentence paragraph, which is discouraged per WP:PARAGRAPH.--Launchballer13:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about multiple references. The point of a reference is to let the user verify a statement. If you give one good source for that, it's easy for the reader to do that. If you give them a list of sources, all you do is make the reader's job harder because they have to go look in all of them until they find the one that supports the statement. RoySmith(talk)13:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which checks out, however I can't approve an article deserving that template. Please remedy it before I can approve it.--Launchballer14:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiLaunchballer, great :) I've been through and unclumped that section and other sections I can find with more than 2 refs for a statement. I hope this meets the rules now, sorry its been so much back and forth. John Cummings (talk) 14:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Offering 2 hooks based on [1]& [2]. @John Cummings: I think the front page hook is more appropriate with limited information "on who is doing the destruction". Readers can click into the article where context is available. If you disagree, I'll strike this and my previous suggestion. Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 16:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Crossed out hooks objected to by nominator. 05:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the heads up. I was unfamiliar with the source and saw it used in the article. I've removed "herbicide" from the proposed hook. WP:ANADOLU seems to be the only source for herbicide usage cited in the article right now. I'm not French, but the video cited near herbicide seems to be talking about bombing. Rjjiii (talk) 16:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HiLaunchballer thanks very much for catching this source I missed. Rjjiii I appreciate your suggestions, my issue with reducing the hook is it misses out vital context, e.g '3b' misses out that multiple sources have called it an ecocide, also it misses out who is doing it and how. '3c' misses who is doing it and that it is so huge in scale it is being called an ecocide. John Cummings (talk) 19:42, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, let's try this again. I do note that there is another "Israel did bad" hook in prep 3 and there's another one ahead of this at Approved, so perhaps this should wait until the next one's been queued.--Launchballer17:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
John Cummings, could you mention the Israeli/ IDF POV in the article, as the Guardian article does? I can't see any mention of it at present. The DYK reviewer will need to check that the article has a NPOV. TSventon (talk) 20:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I propose this be renamed to Environmental impact of the Israel–Hamas war. There's no need to say "in the Gaza Strip" in the title; that's where the war is, so it's obvious that's where the damage is. Also, this would be more in line with other existing titles such as
The lede is misleading and biased to say the least. What Egyptian-Israeli blockade during the current war? Whose bombing is it? Israeli-cited study claiming there is too much food entering the Gaza Strip? Israel blaming Hamas for the famine despite international condemnation of its starvation policy? Why pollution of Israeli beaches rather than the destruction a third of the strip's green cover? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:12, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Abot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
Comment I checked our article. I see that 8 of the 21 sources in our article say mention that Israel caused the environmental damage in their titles. The others say things in their text like: "Due to the Israeli occupation, all aspects of life and the environment in Gaza have been heavily damaged".
"No Traces of Life, Israel's Ecocide", "Israeli attacks have decimated 70 percent of northern Gaza's water wells"
"Ecocide in Gaza: The environmental impact of Israel's war"
"Report: Deliberate Ecocide a Key Element of Israel's Genocidal Campaign in Gaza"
"The staggering carbon footprint of Israel's war in Gaza"
"'Ecocide in Gaza': does scale of environmental destruction amount to a war crime?".
"Ecocide in Gaza: Who will hear and heal its dying environment?"
"Widespread destruction in Gaza puts concept of 'domicide' in focus". (Domicide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of a living environment)
"Gaza : Israël accusée de commettre un écocide environnemental"
I note that we have no issue with saying Russia caused environmental damage in these articles,
So after saying all of that, the suggested title change works if we want to mirror the way we treat the United States in our article titles about the impact of their actions. Lightburst (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Lightburst: based on the above, would you be ok with the "Gaza ecocide" as a title? All the sources you cited above have "ecocide" (or "domicide") in their title.VR(Please ping on reply)23:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also think "impact" is less neutral than "damage." "Impact" strikes me as whitewashing... an "impact" can be positive, but this is definitely not positive. The impact on the environment is that the environment is damaged. Also, in other wars, say WWI or WWII, the environmental damage is caused by both sides in the war. Here, not so. So "caused by the Israel-Hamas war" or "of the Israel-Hamas war" again strikes me as whitewashing. Further, in other wars, the environmental damage caused by a belligerent is typically a side-effect of, e.g. bombing stuff. But here, not so: in this case, we're talking about a belligerent doing things like bringing in bulldozers to bulldoze agriculture. This isn't just damage caused by bombs, it's the intentional destruction of agriculture/ecosystem/environment. In other words, it's ecocide. Finally, all the environmental damage, AFAIK, is in Gaza, not in Israel, not anywhere else. So, "Gaza ecocide." In addition to being WP:CONCISE, it's also the most WP:PRECISE title even if it weren't the WP:COMMONNAME (although I think a source analysis would reveal it's the common name). Levivich (talk) 19:14, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in favor of Gaza ecocide. Other acceptable alternatives are Environmental impact/damage of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza StriporEnvironmental impact/damage on the Gaza Strip of the Israel–Hamas war. The current article exclusively discusses the environmental impact on the Gaza Strip, and not the environmental impact anywhere else. Naming the article what its content is not about is a violation of WP:COATRACK. The topic of environmental impact in Gaza is a topic that is notable alone in its own right, so there's no reason it needs to be lumped with other topics.VR(Please ping on reply)19:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Passive voice: using the word 'damage' is putting the description into the passive voice, which is a common problem with many sources in the conflict and misleading. I'd suggest the other articles which use this word suffer from this same passive voice issue, also I'd note that passive voice and being neutral are not the same thing.
Ecocide: I understand the idea behind the use of the word ecocide (being the person who wrote most of the ecocide article), however I want to point out that ecocide is mostly legal definition, e.g the International Criminal Court has a crime specifically for ecocide during war, also the EU, Ukraine and a few others have it as a national crime. I would also suggest using a technical term like ecocide will make the article harder to find but I appreciate the editor who made the redirect for it.
Support for consistency and neutrality, with impact allowing for changes which are not unambiguously damaging to be included. Strongest possible opposition to any use of Gaza Ecocide as a highly NPOV title not sufficiently supported by RS. FortunateSons (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and the rest of the title is fine, strongest possible opposition to moving it to invasion, it should focus on the larger scope and not be merely restricted to the invasion of Gaza. FortunateSons (talk) 17:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, "impact" is a broader concept than "damage", which is again broader than "ecocide". It makes sense given this is a developing real-world topic as well as a developing short article to keep this as a broad topic, and to spin out new items when and if that will aid the understanding of the reader. CMD (talk) 10:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Environmental impact of the Israel–Hamas war – this is the title in the format of other similar articles. --Gruznov (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for the parent article is this article doesn't consider any of the environmental damage caused by the October 7 attacks (which is an integral part of the Israel-Hamas war). Even if in the future we wanted to create a single article to encompass all environmental damage caused by Israel-Hamas war, the environmental destruction of Gaza is so, so notable, it would justify a WP:STANDALONE article. Not only does it pass WP:GNG but the enormous scale of it also has enduring significance.VR(Please ping on reply)19:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Environmental impact of the Israel-Hamas war, since most other similar articles on the impacts of wars use this phrasing. Oppose Gaza ecocide because Israel has not been convicted of ecocide and calling this ecocide would be inserting bias. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]