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Talk:Grandpa Indian

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A fact from Grandpa Indian appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 25 December 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that Grandpa Indian, created in the 1930s to replace Santa ClausinBrazil, was portrayed as adorned in colorful bird feathers, bringing gifts to Brazilian children? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Grandfather Indian.

The result was: promotedbySchwede66 talk 02:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• ... that Grandpa Indian, a character created in the 1930s to replace Santa ClausinBrazil, was portrayed as adorned in "feathers of all the colors of the birds", bringing gifts to Brazilian children? Source: Se hoje direitistas alérgicos ao comunismo gritam por aí "a minha bandeira jamais será vermelha", nos anos 1930, a cor virou símbolo de um imperialismo que precisava ser defenestrado a qualquer custo pelos integralistas da época. O chefe dessa quadrilha rubra? Papai Noel. Movimento calcado no nacionalismo de matizes fascistas, o integralismo se empolga com um potencial substituto do velhinho que de bom, para eles, não tem nada. Assim cresceu a fábula do Vovô Índio, um senhorzinho "muito amigo das árvores", vestido com "penas de todas as cores dos passarinhos", que distribuía presentes para as crianças brasileiras.
  • ALT1: ... that Grandpa Indian, a character conceived in the 1930s to replace Santa ClausinBrazil, had virtually disappeared less than ten years after its creation? Source: É nesse marco que no final do ano de 1932, próximo ao Natal, surge uma tentativa "nacionalista" de desbancar Papai Noel como encarregado de distribuir presentes para as crianças e instaurar em seu lugar uma criação autóctone: o Vovô Índio (abrev.: VvI). (…) Alvo de críticas e ironias desde seu lançamento, o VvI, após aparente sucesso, começa a perder força nos anos seguintes, a ponto de estar praticamente desaparecido em 1938, ou seja, poucos natais depois.
  • ALT2: ... that the creator of Grandpa Indian, conceived in the 1930s to replace Santa ClausinBrazil, stated Santa awakened, from a very young age, "the spirit of subservience and imitation"? Source: E afirma que a crença no Papai Noel, desperta desde a mais tenra idade, "o espírito de subserviencia e imitação".
  • ALT3: ... that Grandpa Indian, created in the 1930s to replace Santa ClausinBrazil, was portrayed as adorned in colorful bird feathers, bringing gifts to Brazilian children? Source: Se hoje direitistas alérgicos ao comunismo gritam por aí "a minha bandeira jamais será vermelha", nos anos 1930, a cor virou símbolo de um imperialismo que precisava ser defenestrado a qualquer custo pelos integralistas da época. O chefe dessa quadrilha rubra? Papai Noel. Movimento calcado no nacionalismo de matizes fascistas, o integralismo se empolga com um potencial substituto do velhinho que de bom, para eles, não tem nada. Assim cresceu a fábula do Vovô Índio, um senhorzinho "muito amigo das árvores", vestido com "penas de todas as cores dos passarinhos", que distribuía presentes para as crianças brasileiras.
  • ALT4: ... that Grandpa Indian, a Brazilian version of Santa Claus, was portrayed as adorned in colorful bird feathers, bringing gifts to children? Source: Se hoje direitistas alérgicos ao comunismo gritam por aí "a minha bandeira jamais será vermelha", nos anos 1930, a cor virou símbolo de um imperialismo que precisava ser defenestrado a qualquer custo pelos integralistas da época. O chefe dessa quadrilha rubra? Papai Noel. Movimento calcado no nacionalismo de matizes fascistas, o integralismo se empolga com um potencial substituto do velhinho que de bom, para eles, não tem nada. Assim cresceu a fábula do Vovô Índio, um senhorzinho "muito amigo das árvores", vestido com "penas de todas as cores dos passarinhos", que distribuía presentes para as crianças brasileiras.
  • Reviewed: unnecessary for now

Created by RodRabelo7 (talk). Self-nominated at 20:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be loggedatTemplate talk:Did you know nominations/Grandfather Indian; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

• Comment: As Kerouac and many others professed, "first thought, best thought". Your first hook is your best so far, but too long. Add an ALT3 that trims it, perhaps something like "... that Grandpa Indian, a version of Santa Claus in Brazil, brought gifts to children in a suit of colorful bird feathers?" (119 characters) Maybe play around with different, shorter permutations until you find one you like. Viriditas (talk) 21:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Viriditas, ALT3 has now 165 characters and conveys basically the same information of ALT0. ALT4 has 136, but it omits the decade (1930s). RodRabelo7 (talk) 22:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I am putting together a review now. Viriditas (talk) 23:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• From the end of World War I and the Week of Modern Art in 1922, Brazil witnessed the emergence of various nationalist cultural movements with diverse trends This sentence is unclear. Do you mean to just say "From late 1918 to early 1922"? Reading the article, it looks like you really mean just from around 1922. Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I modified this so I could pass it. Please fix it to suit your liking. Viriditas (talk) 00:20, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• He stated that the belief in Santa Claus awakened, from a very young age, "the spirit of subservience and imitation". On 11 February 1933, in the O Malho magazine, the art of Euclides da Fonseca was featured as the winning poster. It's clear that you know what these things mean, but I don't think it's clear for readers. Can you prompt readers as to what "the spirit of subservience and imitation" refers to, very briefly, and tell us why the art of da Fonseca is important here? Viriditas (talk) 23:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I fixed the part about Fonseca. Viriditas (talk) 00:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for that. I have been adding some old secondary sources to the article, but all of them are corroborated by modern ones. RodRabelo7 (talk) 02:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article's name should be moved to "Grandpa Indian" or "Indian Grandpa". If the intention is to translate『Vovô Índio』into English this is a better translation than "Grandfather Indian". Perhaps the word "Indian" itself should give way to a different one, as not to confuse readers for the people of India the country. Torimem (talk) 13:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good points, but I don’t think there is any confusion, as the archaic form of "Indian" (I know, it’s unfortunate) is well known to English speakers. While I sympathize with your concerns, I think the current title is good. Of course, if you have English-language sources showing otherwise for this specific topic, please show them. I’m open to new titles, I just don’t want to see constant page moves so perhaps propose a requested move? Viriditas (talk) 19:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The word『vovô』means grandpa. Grandfather would be "avô". Hence my proposal. But since I'm not sure about the word order ("Grandpa Indian" or "Indian Grandpa"), I thought it would be better to discuss it here first. Torimem (talk) 19:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: The only source I have found with an English translation gives us exactly Grandfather Indian (see third paragraph). You can find it on Library Genesis. Particularly, as a native Portuguese speaker, I do not object moving the article to Grandpa Indian. RodRabelo7 (talk) 19:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Torimem and @Viriditas, this source uses Grandpa Indian, but I am unsure about its reliability. RodRabelo7 (talk) 19:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If the both of you prefer Grandpa Indian, I have no objection to a move. Viriditas (talk) 20:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a likely reliable source that uses Indian Grandpa. Using índio as an adjective in Portuguese seems a little bit dated, that is why I prefer Grandpa Indian instead of Indian Grandpa… RodRabelo7 (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Grandpa Indian then. Does this word order sound natural in English? If so, then I'm fine with it. Torimem (talk) 20:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it sounds natural to me. It also has more of a comforting, informal sound when it is ordered this way, resembling in some respects the familiar sound of "Santa Claus". On the other hand, "Indian Grandpa" doesn't do it in English, and makes it sound too formal and distant. Viriditas (talk) 20:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it sounds dated, which is why Grandpa Indian sounds good. Viriditas (talk) 20:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Should I also move the DYK nomination page? I’m afraid I don’t feel 100% confident to do it. RodRabelo7 (talk) 21:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you asked. I was wondering the same thing. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]