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Under "Health effects", it says very little reliable scientific evidence available at this time that drinking red wine, eating grapes, or following the grape diet.
The first two and possibly the third don't seem to have much if anything to do wth grape seed extract. Am I missing something? Chriswaterguytalk 11:52, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I removed that ACS reference as non-specific to GSE and edited the article with what is available as general information. Fyi, there are numerous assessments by the EFSA of GSE ineffectiveness for individual health conditions, such as this showing no cause and effect relationship can be demonstrated. --Zefr (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Inadequate sources for blood pressure and blood lipid discussion[edit]
This long-held version states adequately the overall weak research existing on GSE. In this analysis, tables 1 and 3 show the design weaknesses of the underlying research, with high variability in subject numbers, dosing, polyphenol type, and duration. I suggest only a general statement on blood pressure from the original version that "the amounts were small (3–6 mmHg) and occurred only in obese people under age 50 with existing metabolic syndrome" is sufficient. The NIH summary states that research on blood pressure has been "conflicting", which indicates we are in a dubious state for sourcing.
The review on blood lipids is only an abstract, with the NIH summary giving caution that "The individual studies, however, were small in size, which could affect the interpretation of the results."
With only such low-quality research available, we shouldn't overstate and mislead general users about potential effects of GSE on blood pressure and lipids. The original version provided this cautious reflection from the NIH summary. The version revisedbyOmnibus gives a more favorable impression of GSE effects. Stronger WP:MEDASSESS sources would be needed, but do not exist in PubMed searches. Zefr (talk) 15:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What we're doing now in the more detailed article is quoting the NIH directly. If you think the NIH "overstates and misleads" consumers, respectfully you need to take that up with the NIH. Your preferred version subjectively interprets what the NIH actually said in a questionable manner. Also, I note your numbers were simply wrong on the blood pressure meta-analysis. The average reduction for people with metabolic syndrome (of any age and weight) was 8.5 mmHg systolic, not "3 to 6" or "only in people under 50." The "3 to 6" is an average of both healthy patients (very small reduction) and patients with metabolic syndrome (large reduction), which is not a useful figure to cite. Omnibus (talk) 16:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stating from the Zhang article, "overall analyses found significant reductions for SBP (−6 mmHg) and DBP (−3) after grape seed extract treatment. In subgroup analyses, there were significant reductions in younger subjects (mean age < 50 years) for SBP (−6 to −2 mmHg) and DBP (−3 to −1), in obese subjects for SBP (−4 to -2)." These may be statistically significant, but are marginal physiological changes within error amounts of measuring BP. The "large reduction" in blood pressure in people with metabolic syndrome was only -8 mmHg, which is clinically significant in borderline hypertension, but its significance may depend on other factors in obese people with comorbidities. Zefr (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATED: I am fully on board with your recent edit which incorporates the reasoning above, and have no further critique or notes. Omnibus (talk) 17:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
