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"the League expanded between the 13th and 15th centuries and ultimately encompassed nearly 200 settlements across seven modern-day countries, ranging from Estonia in the north and east, to the Netherlands in the west, and Kraków, Poland, in the south." 178.24.245.152 (talk) 08:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree (mostly about the statement on 'Krakow to the south') and propose changing the last sentence to something more like:
Growing from a few North German towns in the late 12th century, the League expanded between the 13th and 15th centuries and ultimately encompassed nearly 200 settlements across seven modern-day countries, ranging from Estonia in the north and east, to Holland in the west, and extended inland as far as Cologne, the Prussian regions and Kraków, Poland.
Looks mostly fine and better than the original too, though I'd personally replace "Holland" (really mostly Amsterdam and Dordrecht, so not that far west of Dinant) with something that includes the towns in Gelre and Overijssel. Tbh many "maximum extent" places to the southwest and southeast you could pick had pretty weak links that ended before or during the 15th century. JaikeV (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
JackTheSecond, about that old paragraph (it was in before I started editing), this is the text from Hammel-Kiesow:
Das entscheidende Kriterium für die Aufnahme eines Kaufmanns in die Hanse war nach heutigem Forschungsstand das Recht, zu dem er geboren war. Die Mitgliedschaft in ihr was folglich sozusagen angeboren: Nur wer von deutschen Eltern geboren war und nach deutschem Recht lebte, außerdem durch das Erlernen des Kaufmannsberufs die Berechtigung zum selbständigen Auslandshandel erborben hatte, konnte in die Hanse aufgenommen werden. Das hat noch nichts mit dem Nationalismus des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts zu tun, sondern mit dem - etnisch gebundenen - Recht als der grundsätzlichen Kategorie mittelalterlichen Daseins.
Slightly overstated claims are common in the literature, 'cause it's hard to say anything about the Hanse else, but Dinant was in the Holy Roman Empire. So I guess Hammel-Kiesow included it under "deutsch". No idea what you mean with Goteborg, did you mean Gotland? Visby had a large German merchant community since the 12th century, and there were Scandinavian and German council members by the 13th. There'd be lots of people there born to "German" parents under "German" law. JaikeV (talk) 09:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for that. Yes, I meant Gotland and yes, where exactly who was living had me confused a little. The fact that the Hanse was a solely German institution changes the perspective on things quite a bit.
Most of the confusion came from the section that read 'hometowns and destination ports' and went on to talk about a network being established. - The section didn't clarify who it was that built the network and I had just assumed it to be the two sides 'coming together' - which, in the context, likely meant the inner-German phenomenon.
My confusion with the section itself is mostly about some phrasing like 'whose towns were where these merchants held citizenship' that doesn't seem to refer to the right things, grammatically.
I am not sure if I am doing a good job making a point here, so just ask again if I didn't. I removed the tag in the meantime, as the claim itself is clearly not in question. JackTheSecond (talk) 12:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right. I'm not sure how 100% exclusive it was, and there were places in Scandinavia where locals and Hansards intermarried (). But in general, stuff that involved guild membership was very exclusionary in the Middle Ages. And Hanseatic privileges were enjoyed overall by traders from towns in the Holy Roman Empire and Baltic Ostsiedlung regions. That isn't very clear from the intro.
Tbh the intro could probably do with a rewrite for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs. There isn't much really factually wrong with it, but it's been edited down from a hyperbolic text that presented it as a great power and the focus is strange. Too much political history, not enough economic history.
Yes a sentence like 'whose towns were where these merchants held citizenship' isn't flashy and sounds like translated German. JaikeV (talk) 12:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
