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Talk:Herero and Nama genocide

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Section sizes Section size for Herero and Nama genocide (23 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 10,862 10,862 Background 6,849 23,277 German colonial policy 3,006 4,735 The Dietrich case 1,729 1,729 Rising tension 4,441 4,441 Revolts 7,252 7,252 Genocide 14,865 33,817 Concentration camps 11,716 11,716 Medical experiments and scientific racism 5,048 5,048 Number of victims 2,188 2,188 Aftermath 3,234 11,429 Link between the Herero genocide and the Holocaust 8,195 8,195 Reconciliation 21 15,226 Recognition 3,515 3,515 Negotiations and agreement 9,379 9,379 Repatriation 2,311 2,311 Media 2,350 2,350 See also 1,484 1,484 Original German texts 50 50 References 30 1,957 Sources 1,927 1,927 Bibliography and documentaries 4,218 4,218 External links 1,219 1,219 Total 105,889 105,889

The introduction mentions the San as victims for the genocide, but this is not covered in the text nor is there any source given. Are there any reliable sources that confirm that the San were also persecuted like the Herero and Nama? If not, we should remove the reference. If there are sources I am willing to include them into the page, otherwise I will remove that part in around two weeks. ASchudak (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed - I found no source that referenced any genocidal treatment of the San by the Germans. The general statement in the article referred to "Herero, Nama and San", and was given seven references. One it known to me, some of the other were available online. I have not read these fully, but as far as my research goes, they cover the Herero and Nama, but there is nothing on the San. If San are mentioned at all, it is their treatment by the immigrating Herero in the century before, and that is not part of this article. So I removed the reference to a "San genocide" and would ask you to offer specific references to the San in reliable sources if you want this in the article. Thanks! ASchudak (talk) 07:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Researching Johannes Kruger I actually found a reference to a "San genocide" committed by Germany: Gordon, Robert J. (2009) "Hiding in Full View: The “Forgotten” Bushman Genocide - https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol4/iss1/4/

That, however, covers the era from 1912 to 1915, so is not part of this article. ASchudak (talk) 12:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reading some publications such as: hans hilpisch "wo sind die herero geblieben?" 2019 - 2021 And rainer tröndle "gewisse ungewissheiten" 2012 , i came a cross some evidence that suggest that it can hardly be called a genocide. Such as: new estimates about the number of herero at the waterberg (12.000-15.000) and the number of herero overall (35000) and the geographical attributes given in the omaheke desert, namely that there is some water, the germans just didnt know about. According to the interpretation the herero escaped to british botswana or returned to their lands, while the germans in an attempt to whitewash their failure declared the desert closed off and threatened all herero that returned with death. As proof of the failure of this plan a blockade of a 250km desertstrip with approx. 1500 soldiers is declared as impossible. Also the timing of the escape and the order (around 2 weeks apart) is seen as evidence for its lack of real life value and as proof of the theatrics. The blue book of the british that lists german attrocities is cited as propaganda to reject the german vlaim to south west africa.

All un all it seems sound to me. 197.233.137.241 (talk) 11:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As the Nama people are best known as Nama than "Namaqua"; as the Nama people call themselves "Nama"; and as the German declaration addressing the genocide also refers to them as "Nama", never as "Namaqua" (https://www.dngev.de/images/stories/Startseite/joint-declaration_2021-05.pdf), I propose moving this article, from "Herero and Namaqua genocide" to "Herero and Nama genocide". Would anyone have a reason to oppose such a move? Thank you. Dan Palraz (talk) 11:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: At the time of the genocide, "Namaqua" was quite common in written sources, all of which of course originated from colonial people. Today, all outsiders call the tribe Nama people, and the insiders call themselves Khoikhoin. As khoikhoin is not English but Khoekhoe language, "Nama" might be the logical choice. --Pgallert (talk) 18:08, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Greenman (talk) 07:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Makes sense for it to be "Nama" over "Namaqua". XTheBedrockX (talk) 16:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Per WP:NAMECHANGES, the new title is appropriate. XxTechnicianxX (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. Made the change, since no one seems to oppose it. Dan Palraz (talk) 16:39, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know who could also move the Category name, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide to "Herero and Nama genocide", but it probably should be done as well. Dan Palraz (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]