This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that an imageorphotographbeincluded in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in New York City may be able to help! The Free Image Search ToolorOpenverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. | Upload |
Author of 5 books is not notable enough? Also, I agree that the page needs more work; it'll get done. Yodaat 18:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bravejoints, while I respect the work involved in interviewing Jeffrey Satinover for this article, an unpublished interview is not an acceptable source for Wikipedia, which depends upon reliable published sources (see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources), especially for potentially controversial material about living persons. If you could persuade Mr. Satinover to host the interview on his website, that would make it an acceptable source for non-contentious material provided that "the article is not based primarily" upon it ("Using the subject as a self-published source").
However, some statements in the article cannot be based purely on Mr. Satinover's own statements, whether those are published or not; for example, that one of his books "has been applauded by psychologists, psychiatrists, scientists and Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim religious leaders". Statements like this require independent sources. EALacey 14:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article says Satinover's writings 'lack the “New Age” features characteristic of most genuine Jungians.' This looks like a biased expression of opinion, and I am going to remove it in the near future unless someone can suggest a good reason why I shouldn't. Skoojal (talk) 23:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've overhauled this entry to a far greater extent than I originally intended, so I though I'd post a bit of explanation. It was repetitious, and some of the repeated material was not referenced. I've tried to reorganize it with an emphasis on chronology, admittedly a bias of mine, which I hope will make it easier to improve in future. That means reworking from resume-style "He is past president of XXX" to "He was president of XXX in YEAR," which is normal bio style. I think I've only made 3 substantive contributions: (1) material from his NY Times wedding announcement, (2) his providing commentary in two documentary films, and (3) a re-write of his role in the Thomas hearings, which is well-documented. I've tried to maintain NPOV. The only bit I removed that I imagine someone might care about was an unreferenced statement that his work had been cited in many amicus curiae briefs. Since anyone can submit such briefs and cite anything they choose, it's really of no significance. The day a court decision cites his work, that will be news. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 15:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am new to Wikipedia but have tried to follow the example set above. I have further edited the section on Clarence Thomas. Some of the changes and their reasons are: 1) “lying” reworded--According to the DSM, a delusion is not a “lie” 2) Psychiatrists were brought in by both sides 3) Any of the psychiatrists brought in by both sides could have testified. None were willing to. 4) In the Kutchin reference, the reason for Satinover's change of mind is made explicit and reasonable. In omitting detail, Mayer and Abramson make it look like a deathbed conversion. 5) Catherine MacKinnon is extremely well-known as holding left and extreme opinions on a number of matters. The New York Times, “the paper of record” is a better representative of press opinion.
I have removed the reference to Emmanuel Margolis as I can find no evidence for it.
Querstion: Is it true that anyone may submit a brief to a court. If so, I will do so promptly ;)Greendorot (talk) 22:26, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Edits to Jeffery Satinover page, describing his book, "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth": There have been statements by other editors that make it seem like the book is mostly a Christian "evangelical" argument. It is not; it mostly talks about the genetics of of homosexuality and clearly argues at the question of whether homosexuality is so fixed that it cannot be changed. But this is my impression only. As a matter of fact (my edits are based on these facts), the book does not spend that much time talking about a "biblical" view of homosexuality, even if it does in a way that I find important yet balanced. The book is available in many libraries and there is kindle version. The book has 16 chapters. 9 chapters (almost 60%) discusses science and medicine. Most of this is about genetics and if homosexuality is genetic. 1 chapter (less than 10%) talks about Christian opinions 1 chapter talks about if treatment is a good idea or not, based on what someone wants 1 chapter talks about Jewish opinions 1 chapter talks about Christian treatments 1 chapter talks about secular treatments 1 chapter talks about philosophy and history Therefore, the book mostly analyzes science (9 chapters and part of 3 chapters) = 65% (estimate) About the bible, the book discusses 3 out of 16 chapters (but not al of these chapters) = 20% (estimate) About other matters, the book discusses 3 out of 16 chapters, too = 15% (estimate), a lot of this is review and analysis of history
So, I have made these changes: "makes a detailed analysis of homosexuality and of opinions about it. The book debates the nature of homosexuality from psychological, religious and scientific perspectives. Satinover argues that homosexuality involves compulsive impulses and "is not a true illness, though it may be thought an illness in the spiritual sense of 'soul sickness,' innate to fallen human nature."[13] He also argues that "gay activism distorts the truth and harms not only society, but homosexuals themselves". Most of the book discusses whether homosexuality is biological and genetic and if it can be changed. About one fifth of the book discusses human sexuality from Jewish and Christian perspectives."
Greendorot (talk) 15:47, 7 April 2012 (UTC)greendorot[reply]
I undid Jeremy112233 undoing of my last edit: Jeremy112233 undid because he/she thought two quotations were not direct quotations. But they are direct quotations of Satinover in two different interviews. If this is not made clear enough by how I referenced them, I welcome help. Bravejoints2 (talk) 19:42, 9 April 2012 (UTC)Bravejoints2[reply]
I plan to remove from Branmuffin22(Branmuffin22), modified?) "Some groups who oppose the expansion of LGBT rights and protections have incorporated his research into their position papers.[19]" Is there evidence that Santinover has endorsed these groups and ALL of what they stand for? (guilt by association) He is on record for what he does stand for (I have added some of this). Anyone may cite who they want to but not every such site is important and cites may be selected in a bias way. Should Wikipedia group all cites of every living person [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|living persons] or every person? I welcome responses. Bravejoints2 (talk) 21:18, 9 April 2012 (UTC)Bravejoints2[reply]
The edits I made were an attempt to show the manner in which Jeffrey Satinover's work has been used, not just in a few isolated instances, but consistently and frequently. The fact is, Satinover's writings are used pretty much exclusively by organizations that seek to dehumanize and undermine the civil rights and fair treatment of LGBT people. Far right-wing "Christian" groups and others, including some organizations that are classified as "Hate Groups" by the Southern Poverty Law Center, frequently cite Satinover's writings as evidence that LGBT people are "less-than" and should therefore be denied equal rights under the law. For fans of Satinover, this might be an inconvenient truth, but it is, nevertheless, the truth. I have never seen Satinover's writings used by any organization that stands for equality and fairness for LGBT people. Satinover's book, "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" problematizes the very existence of LGBT people. It is deeply, fundamentally, dehumanizing. It adopts a tone of "concern" for gay people, yet it cites outdated research--research discredited by the mainstream scientific community (e.g., the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association)-- to makes a case against LGBT people. It draws on the worst of anti-gay stereotypes: that gay people are diseased, promiscuous, predisposed to pedophilia, and incapable of love. It does all this in an attempt to portray the lives and loves of LGBT people (primarily gay men) as inferior. Satinover argues that LGBT people's very existence is wrong, and that they need to be changed. His service on the Scientific Advisory Committee of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality ("NARTH") is further evidence of his point of view.
I can understand that people who have a personal fondness for Satinover may wish to whitewash these facts. Frankly, I'm tired of the back-and-forth editing on this. So, Satinover fans: You win. But I do hope that someone else who has the time and energy will step in and continue to try to show the full truth about what Satinover has said and written about LGBT people. And if Satinover, himself, has changed his views since the time "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" was published, then it is incumbent upon him to correct the record in an equally public and academic fashion. But currently, based on the vast body of evidence publicly available, there can be no question that Satinover sees LGBT people as intrinsically and definitionally inferior to heterosexuals.
And speaking of bias, it's interesting that in Bravejoints2's most recent edits, describing Satinover's expert testimony in the Florida adoption case, s/he managed to cherry-pick a handful of quotes that make Satinover appear to be a little less anti-gay. Given the preponderance of anti-LGBT writing and speaking in which Satinover has engaged, the selection of these quotes appears, to me, to be exactly the type of bias of which you have accused me.
--Branmuffin22 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the suggestion, Jeremy112233, but if you look at the edit history, you'll see it is my text that keeps getting altered and deleted. I've tried doing precisely what you suggest, and one or two people keep deleting my edits and source notes to "spin" the article to make it more favorable to Satinover. It's entirely possible that Satinover himself, or someone acting on his behalf, is trying to whitewash his record. This is why I said I'm tired of the back-and-forth, and I'm hoping some fair-minded editors will get involved. --Branmuffin22 (talk) 14:56, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I got a second wind, and decided to make some better and even more-thoroughly-researched edits. It will be interesting to see whether Satinover's defenders try to undo these edits, too. --Branmuffin22 (talk) 16:28, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why is a marriage notice from the 1980's important? Responses welcome. Bravejoints2 (talk) 21:36, 9 April 2012 (UTC)Bravejoints2[reply]
--Branmuffin22 (talk) 15:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The below comments refer only (at present) to Branmuffin22's use of Stuart Chambers' book, that “analyzes” Satinover. I have attempted to provide specifics as to why Branmuffin22's comments are in violation of Wikipedia guidelines.
Regarding the reliability of sources, Wikipedia states that “articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press). All three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. Furthermore, “Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous or harmful. (March 2012)”
By implication, Wikipedia editors should not merely troll the internet to leap at the first reference that suits their POV. I am concerned that Branmuffin22 has done just that as evidenced by the following facts, available to anyone who makes even a minimal effort:
1) “Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both”
Although Google Books lists him as a “Professor” and elsewhere as a “scientist” at the University of Ottowa (as repeated by Barnmuffin22), the blurb for Chambers' book states that he has a Master's degree from this University and that he became interested in the subject as an undergraduate. He is cited approvingly by a former student as a High School teacher. I can find no evidence that he has the credentials Wikipedia requires.
Chambers appears to have published nothing in any scientific or social science journal. He is not referenced on CiteSeer or SSRN. His book is referenced in Google Scholar (which returns to Google Books only) but shows no outside citations of it—i.e., this Wikipedia article will be the first such.
2) reliability of “...the publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press)”
The book appears to have been published by a vanity press in Ottowa (http://www.gsph.com). It is unavailable in public libraries in, for example, Miami, Dade County, Florida. Its Amazon rank is over 6,000,000 and it has no reader reviews. Not even Library Journal has reviewed it. (By contrast, “Birdwatching for Dummies” is ranked at about 216,000 and has 18 reviews.)
3) “All majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view).”
I guess no prob here as there is no coverage in this book of any other point of view (see point 4). Even as a formality, reliable sources give at least lip service to opposing viewpoints.
4) “Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately”
In accord with his previous statements in Talk (“any means necessary”), by referring readers to this book, Branmuffin22 is indirectly claiming about Satinover that he is, in addition to a homophobe,
-- a ”...poster boy for neo-con psychiatry [sic]” --”you cannot teach an old dog new tricks” --”purely nonsensical” --”difficult to believe he holds degrees from M.I.T and Harvard” --”pathetically preachy” --”does not bode well for Jeffrey Satinover's future business”
5) “...especially if potentially libelous or harmful. (March 2012)”
I do not know whether there is any further accountability that may be found within Wikipedia. In an email I alerted Satinover to what was happening on Wikipedia. (I previously interviewed Satinover, and then added to his Wikipedia article, though anyone may easily find how to contact him.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bravejoints2 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why is there so much information regarding the content of his work regarding homosexuality? The guy isn't mostly known for his anti-gay rhetoric. He's really scarcely known at all. Couldn't there be a couple sentences that go as follows:
Then you can add this stuff to the page about the book. That would be so much more appropriate! And you guys have basically already done all the legwork needed!
In addition, couldn't we do the same with the Florida case, which already has a page? Right now this page reads as an anti-gay advocacy page with interjections from a pro-gay advocate. (Very ANTI Wikipedian...) What I read from it is:
As a neutral third party who hasn't contributed, I find it a tad inappropriate. Can we fix it? I know you've put hard work into this and I think it's great! It's just not appropriate for a biographical page. Sean Egan (talk) 07:58, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the bio on Satinover has exceeded his interest, as expanded abruptly in March. However as BLPs are to be corrected immediately I have done so (without removing comments, as warned) by adding references and information that counterbalances what could easily look like (looks to me like) a campaign to present just one dimension of his POV. I have read his book and other writings and what he gets across isn't at all just shallow bigotry. Satinover is pretty explicit in "not liking" gay activists. Though agreeing with Sean's POV about how this debate should be represented in W, I am uncomfortable with his (OK, maybe tongue in cheek) presumption that Satinover "doesn't like gays", especially as all talk on W is public. If it was ironic, it may not come across that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bravejoints2 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"A Wikipedia article about a fringe theory should not make it appear more notable than it is."
Santinover's book and other writings have been brought up and broadly criticized in this article using numerous references to "non-mainstream" organizations who quote him. These have not been removed (have been restored, in fact, when I tried to delete them as being guilt by association). The topic of what his point of view actually is completely fair--not just those parts of his thinking chosen by critics. A major part of the book is about his conviction that homsosexuality is potentially changeable for many, as well as his documentation then and later that the scientific record has been distorted in the public debate. (The claims he makes refer to a wide body of scientific literature, not just bible quotes) Stating that he stated this should scarcely be off limits when his pov is being described as not-mainstream). It has been argued that he doesn't deserve a wiki page--that's fine, but if one is going to be kept up while he's alive it should if anything err in the opposite direction of the critiques, if at all possible.
"Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources." He has supported his claims with innumerable references in both his book and Trojan Couch (OK, my opinion). But the work he did there was good ebough to find its way into court briefs on what is probably the most contentious social debate now. So don't censor him as it were. The original delete of my stating this made the slightly odd point (imo) that his own words don't count. I added additional references...
"An idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea" it isn't. But neither should selected aspects of his POV be erased and others kept in order to avoid presenting his claims fairly.
"and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner." Scholars at the National University of Suingapore don't count? Why not? The references I included that reference his work (as suggested was needed) are a mix of primary and popular sources no less "fringe" than the references used by others that are truly irrelevant, such as that yet other groups use his work in a way some authors don't like.
I have a very strong impression of an organzied effort to one the one hand make sure his reputation is tarnished and other to supress hos actual point of view.
Furthermore, that homosexuality is potentially changeable is NOT a fringe view. It is a minority view that is actively agitated against not so much scientifically as politically, a point he makes with sufficent evidence as to attract precisely this kind of distortion.
Bravejoints2 (talk)Bravejoints2 —Preceding undated comment added 21:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Bravejoints2 (talk) 19:35, 11 May 2012 (UTC)Bravejoints2[reply]
Sorry for the drive-by tag. This article has POV issues. The most obvious upon intial examination were the frequent use of WP:WEASEL & WP:PEACOCK words, as well as a bit of editorializing WP:EDITORIAL. Examples:
Another issue is the "biography" section, which currently reads like a CV or academic resume, not a prose biography of notable life events. Bryan Hopping T 04:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Footnote 1 does indeed say Satinover is Jewish Orthodox. The source arguably meets Wiki RS, but has an obvious bias.
In context that Satinover also teaches at an affiliate of Campus Crusade for Christ, and in view of his many other research interests, how orthodox could he be, really? Does anybody else agree this should be deleted?JerryRussell (talk) 22:56, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Jeffrey Satinover. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]