The common English-language name for the medieval state centred around modern-day KyivisKievan Rus'
Although the modern-day capital of Ukraine is commonly spelled Kyiv in current English, per the Wikipedia policy WP:COMMONNAME and the community consensus outlined on this talk page in April 2021, we use the spelling for the medieval state that is the more common name in English-language historiography, which is Kievan Rus', not Kyivan Rus'. This is not a comment on the identity or association of the medieval state to any modern country, language or culture; it is merely the spelling by which it is more commonly known in English-language literature.
Please do not request that Kievan Rus' be changed to Kyivan Rus': any such request will be denied.
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Noam Cohen (31 May 2022). "Wikipedia acts as a check on Putin's false view of history". The Washington Post. Since the Russian invasion, the English Wikipedia articles about the historical figures and topics Putin invoked have been racking up pop-star numbers. ... Also with Bandera-type numbers is the article about Kievan Rus' (just under a million views), the ancient kingdom led by Vladimir the Great (225,000).
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RM, Kievan Rus' → Kyivan Rus', Not moved, 19 April 2021, discussion
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If I got a euro for every time someone posted a message on this talk page saying it should be Kyivan instead of Kievan, I could buy a train ticket to Kyiv by now. The WP:COMMONNAME is not gonna change any time soon (even though trends have been observed in that direction recently, they are not significant enough yet). NLeeuw (talk) 05:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding the historical, triangular red banner of Kievan Rus according to frescoes from the chronicles to the article
No it shouldn't be. It's just a random banner, nothing indicates it was used by Kievan Rus' princes. On the second picture it's clearly used by two sides. Also those pictures are from 15th century. Marcelus (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ermenrich and Marcelus are correct. Unless you can show a banner, flag or coat of arms to have been used historically, probably in roll of arms / armorial, it is mere speculation to suggest that a simple monocoloured flag used by multiple sides was "the" banner of all of Kievan Rus'. NLeeuw (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a random banner at all. My sources are the miniatirues from a very significant source called the Primary Chronicle -『Radziwiłł Chronicle』and an icon called «Богоматерь Знамение» (Битва новгородцев с суздальцами). The triangular flag was the most common type of battle flag of Rus (so in the plural the inhabitants of Kievan Rus' were called). The banner marked the middle of the army. It was guarded by banner bearers. From afar it was visible - whether the squad was defeated (the banner fell down) or the battle was successful (the banner ‘stretched like clouds’). The shape of the banner could also be in the form of a trapezoid, and also with three or two triangular wedges of cloth. Vbokivs (talk) 06:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Historical chronicles describe and depict the flags of Russia as triangular red cloths of different lengths. Even if the miniatures are from 15th century, they depict events that happened during Kievan Rus' existence. In Rus, instead of the words ‘flag’ and ‘banner’ the word ‘styag’ was used, because the army was pulled together under it. Nonetheless, it is the same as a flag. Vbokivs (talk) 06:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We need a source that explicitly says that the red triangle was the banner of Rus'.
The part about multiple colours you are referring to from the article is related to the beginning of Mikhail Fyodorovich Romanov's rule. So it is not about Kievan Rus, but rather Tsardom of Russia. Vbokivs (talk) 10:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another miniature from the Illustrated Chronicle of Ivan the Terrible, but it doesn't depict something that happened in the Kievan Rus', but rather a conflict that happened between the Moscow Principality in 1378 and the Golden Horde. They are using that exact red triangular banner because the Rus' army used it even before the Mongol invasion and the Moscow Principality continued this. Vbokivs (talk) 10:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything you've said is original research. You have no source stating that the Rus' used a red triangular banner, only your own observation of primary source images that were made hundreds of years after the end of Kievan Rus.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Tasty ice-cream for sale at the shop around the corner! Now at a discount of 23 grivny apiece! Check out our new flavour "Vladislav, Baby Don't Hurt Me!"[Joke]
Seriously though, I haven't got a clue. Seems like the illustrator of the Radziwiłł Chronicle just used the most vivid colour on his palette to paint some but not all of these flags with. Red tends to be best noticeable from a distance in all kinds of weather conditions. It's one of the leading theories of why the Dutch Prince's Flag, originally orange white light-blue, changed to red white dark-blue at sea (which in turn inspired the modern Russian white blue red flag) so that it was better recognisable in the distance, regardless of sun glare, fog, mist, or cloudy skies.
In this 15th-century Radziwiłł Chronicle miniature, Andrey Bogolyubsky's left arm is cut off by his assassins, although the texts claim his "right hand" was cut off. A 1965 autopsy of Andrey's body confirmed the left arm showed many cut marks.
There is no reason to believe the illustrator got everything right. For example, the Radziwiłł Chronicle, Suzdalian Chronicle (Laurentian text) and Kievan Chronicle all agree that shortly before Andrey Bogolyubsky was murdered, "Peter cut off his right hand." Yet, the adjoining illustration shows his left arm being cut off. I kid you not. Read the details at Andrey Bogolyubsky#Death. We really, really can't take these illustrations in the Radziwiłł Chronicle at face value, no matter how beautiful and unique they are. NLeeuw (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree, the color might be fake, and no studies I know of explicably state that it was THE color of Rus' banners. But if it were so so, it would make even more sense that both the Novgorod Republic and the Grand Duchy of Moscow in the future had used red, triangular banners Vbokivs (talk) 07:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, hey, on the ruwiki article (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Знамя) there is some info. Styag or fringes - a military banner in ancient Russia in the form of a pole with a bundle of horse hair, a wedge of brightly coloured cloth, an animal figure or other object fixed on it. The most important characteristic of a flag is to be clearly visible from afar. And then this image is attached, Червленый стяг XII в with the description "Scarlet styag of the Russian druzhina. XII century. Chronicle drawing". Vbokivs (talk) 07:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also found this on the Ruwiki (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стяг_(знамя): ‘Styag is an Old East Slavic derivation from styagati - “to pull down”. Styag literally means ‘that which pulls down’ (cf. dial. styag - ‘a pole, which is used to pull down hay on a cart’).
Later on the styag began to fasten large pieces of brightly coloured fabrics in the shape of a wedge. On the upper end of the styag was set a metal spike. The image of the Life-Giving Cross was stitched on the cloth, and a quiff, coloured with bright paint, was tied under the quiff. The ends of the styag, except for the wedge-shaped form, could have two or three tails, which were called plaits, slopes, klintsy or yalovtsy. During campaigns the flag was removed from its shaft and transported in the wagon together with weapons and armour. The princely druzhina guarded the styag. The styag was put on the shaft only before the battle. In antiquity the styag could be of huge size and its installation required considerable time. In chronicles sometimes occurs the expression ‘do not put up the flag’, which could mean ‘a sudden attack of the enemy’, ‘to be taken by surprise’. The expression ‘to put up the flag’ meant to declare war. During a battle, the flag was usually placed in the centre of the army, on a hill. The fall of the flag caused confusion in the army, so special soldiers - flag bearers - were installed to guard the flag. The enemy, on the contrary, threw the main forces at the flag. The most heated battles took place under the flags. Chronicles, when describing the battle, follow the flag: the flag's braids ‘extend like clouds’ meant a successful course of the battle; defeat was described as ‘the flag undercut’. Vbokivs (talk) 08:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also from the Ruwiki: Styag - a military banner in Kievan Rus' in the form of a pole with a bundle of horse hair, a wedge of brightly colored cloth, an animal figure or other object clearly visible from a distance.
If the banner was meant to be visible from a distance, then it makes sense to make it red, since it is the most visible color. Vbokivs (talk) 08:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I'm not wasting any more time on this pointless conversation. This is all WP:Original research, we are not going to add any flag or banner or standard to this article whatsoever based 21st-century Wikipedians' interpretations of illustrations of chronicles written centuries later. NLeeuw (talk) 16:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here, I found a source: it is a video lecture by the Doctor of Historical Sciences named Medinsky, Vladimir Rostislavovich (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm4EhNpk71U, 24:48)
In the case of the national flag, everything is more complicated. There were no national flags before either, but there were princely military banners with symbols. Why were they needed at all? Some philologists still believe that the Russian word styag, or banner, is related to the verb ‘to pull together’. It is as if there is a princely styag and the commanders must pull together their units and rally around it. Therefore, a styag was just a tall pole, on top of which something noticeable or bright was attached, so that it could be seen from distance. Originally, it could be tufts of grass or a horse's tail, but over time, bright pieces of cloth began to be used. What colour does immediately catch the eye? Red, therefore, a princely styag was a tall pole with red ribbons, which eventually became triangular, rectangular or other, more complex shapes. As the strips of fabric grew bigger in size, they began to be embroidered with symbols or images of what was especially dear, such as the image of the Virgin, the face of the Saviour, cherubim and seraphim, the sun and the moon. And the person who carried the banner and was responsible for its safety became very important, because as long as the banner stood up on the battlefield, it meant that the Prince was alive and his men had to fight to the death. But if the banner fell, then something happened to the Prince, and in the morality of that time it implied that vassals were thus freed from their vassal oath, because back then they swore allegiance not to the state, but personally to the Prince. As it was written in the ‘Tale of Igor's Campaign’, "... and Igor's banners fell." Styag was later also called znamya, from the word ‘a sign’ - it was a banner on which something related to faith was embroidered, for example, the face of the Saviour. Znamya, unlike styag, was necessarily consecrated by some church hierarch or a priest before the battle. The one who carried znamya was called znamenosets, or a standard-bearer, the one who carried horugvi in the Cossack troops was horunzhiy, or a cornet, and the one who carried prapor was praporshik, or an ensign, these are all synonyms. All in all, it was a very responsible and important mission. Banners were mostly red, because it is clearly visible from afar and thence red is considered the commander's colour. However, there is a mystery - do you know what colour Dmitry Donskoy's banners were on Kulikovo Field, as many historians believe? They were black and holy images were embroidered on them with gold and silver thread. Afterwards, in the 19th century, a dispute broke out in society, because if Dmitry Donskoy had black flags, this confirmed that the imperial colours, black-yellow-white, were historical and ancient, but if they were red, then it would be advisable to advocate for the tricolor, i.e. red-blue-white. And so, such a theoretical dispute broke out on this score among historians that they even argued that the chronicler, describing the Mamai massacre, had made a spelling mistake and in fact the flags were not cherny, or black, but chermny, or scarlet, that is, red. Following this logic, it turns out that the chronicler made a mistake in one piece of text, i.e. missed one letter, four times, and since this scroll counts about five hundred re-writes of it, all the scribes also, respectively, made a mistake in all five hundred copies. I don't know, let's assume that this is a historical mystery and perhaps some of Dmitry Donskoy's banners were really black. In any case, it is officially known that after, all the banners of Ivan the Terrible were red. Vbokivs (talk) 05:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The video even depicts an image of the red, triangular flags that fall under the description in the lecture itself that I just forwarded (at 28:09). Vbokivs (talk) 05:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
tl;dr -- You just wasted your and our time preaching to the choir. We know very well there were military banners. But you did not provide any proof that there was an official flag/banner of Kievan Rus as a state. - Altenmann>talk05:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not what we are discussing here. (Please remind me, what we are discussing. Maybe I spaced out). Yes, some Russian cities have similar coats of the arms even today. So what? - Altenmann>talk23:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article criticaly overlooked the role of Polanian tribe in Kyivan Rus'. Even if, as this article suggests, vikings were the first to be called "Rus'", Kyivan Rus' was centered around Polanian tribe, Rus' vikings were representatives of Polanian tribe, all their conquerings in Eastern Europe became Polanian conquerings, all tribute they gathered from Northern slavic tribes was coming to Polanian center of Kyiv, and Polanians themself started to call themself Rus' in 852 as the chronicle suggests. Other slavic tribes like Ilmen Slavs or Kriviches never called themself Rus', they were using this name for Polanians, yet you mentioned them like equals. Polanians were basically metropoly of Kyivan Rus'. I'm not sure if anyone here cares about this article, but if you do - please put this as the suggestion. 46.200.75.110 (talk) 15:51, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One example proves nothing, I can just as easily find many recent books which use the current title (A History of Russian Economic Thought (2023), Orthodox Mercantilism Political Economy in the Byzantine Commonwealth (2023), The Ukraine War & the Eurasian World Order (2024) etc). In any case there is no policy that says that only sources published in the last few years should be used when determining the name. Alaexis¿question?21:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is titled "Kievan Rus'", in accordance with what has been determined to be the most widespread usage. However, "Kyivan Rus'" is used in some sources for the same thing. The phrase "also known as Kyivan Rus'" serves to let people know that these two names refer to the same thing. This is REALLY simple stuff. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need a source so say "also known as Kyivan Rus". If we have a majority of sources using one name and a minority using the other one, then it's totally legitimate to say X also known as Y. Alaexis¿question?13:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we have a majority of sources using one name and a minority using the other one But we don't.
The article mentions the Varangians, notably Rurik, establishing their center of power in Novgorod by 862 from where they expended Russia southwards. By 882 Kiev was conquered and made capital of Russia.
Therefore, the capitals list should include Novgorod for 862 - 882 and only afterwards Kiev. 2A02:8108:8A80:753A:D5A6:4021:71B1:ED37 (talk) 14:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]