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Archive 1 |
I removed the "(Serbs)" after Vlach for what I think are obvious reasons - until relatively recently the term Vlach and several related terms denoted all the cattle-raising populations in the Dinaric mountains, regardless of religion (and later ethnicity). After the Turkish wars the term was apparently limited to Orthodox Vlachs in the north. In Dalmatia, all the "hinterlanders" regardless of ethno-confessional status were called Vlachs until the downfall of Venetian Republic or later, and even today this name is used in the pejorative sense for "people from the hills" in coastal Dalmatian cities and towns. --Elephantus 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
You're right, I know a Serb Splićanka who always refers to her daughter's (Croat) mother-in-law as a "vlajna". :-) --estavisti 19:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
wow, 20 000 refuges were there and i was 10 and remember the war so please don't argue against something you have no knowledge about.
I want to say that this sentense: "After taking over Knin, Serbs expelled all Croats from the so called Krajina, and slaughtered those who were left behind." is false. Serbs and Croats lived in Knin together for over 200 years, and in Yugoslav wars, how you called them, Croats expelled Serbs because they wanted to make Croatia country where only Croats live. I was one of the Serbs in Knin and I was expelled from my own house and I came here in Belgrade. Well, than I had only 5 years but I knew what was hapening around me so please can you change that information...
Thanks, --Wladimir 16:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Znaš šta, ona izreka『Pobednik piše istoriju』je tačna, a ti si očiti dokaz toga. Ja ne razumem zašto ti je tj. vama teško da to priznate... Priznaj, znam da istina boli i nemoj ti da menjaš istoriju... --Wladimir 10:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't have time arguing with you. Sorry about writening Serbian on English wikipedia, I won't do that anymore... Wladimir 17:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Given how our newbie Wladimir just somehow manages to make the fourth revert outside the 24 hour period escaping, thus, the limitation covered by the 3RR I cannot help thinking that the retarded sock puppet master user:Purger a.k.a. user:Medule is at work here. 83.131.74.187 20:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The Croat population of some 43,000 left voluntarily in this period, under the encouragement of their own national media which was promising massive military operations in the region. However, over 1000 remained undisturbed.
The Serb regugee column of 1995 was at least 150,000 by all international reckonings. The remaining population of Serbs was entirely destroyed as was all Serb property. This occurred.
I am not Serbian. I stumbled into Knin on the day of Thanksgiving this year. It was a 5 day celebration of hatred and violence. 5 day. Filmed by the national media. Statues of soldiers with guns aloft stood in the main square. Many men wore militia uniforms. The militia headquarters was next to the Orthodox church (chained and bolted) the houses around it stood empty. All down the street hung Croat flags, heavy armoured vehicles rolled down the streets, nationalist grafiti was on every wall, pictures of tanks were ubiquitous.
Now. come on. This page is NPOV. By the OSCE's reckoning hardly any Serbs have remained and the previous population was almost entirely Serb.
DEAL WITH IT, Both sides did screwed up crap. But it has to be dealt with. The expulsion of the native population of Krajina was and is a war crime which must be remedied. The population of Knin is temporary as if Croatia ever wants to join the EU they must vacate the properties they occcupy.
194.112.59.212 01:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The "celebration" of a war crime that was Oluja/Storm is something that was used as a rallying point for HDZ and their supporters. The vast majority of Knin inhabitants took no part in it and anyone who was here can testify to the bussed in masses who controlled the town for less than 3 hours and then left it a ghost town as residents emerged to witness what turned out to be a disappointing concert. The weather on the day was justice to those who suffered on all sides with thunder, lightning, high winds and rain keeping the glorification of 1995 as brief as possible. It appeared that the gods took a neutral stance on the day. Hobelar, 6.3.07
Hey Wladimir, you said: "...house and I came here in Belgrade. Well, than I had only 5 years but..." First of all, you didn't "come in Belgrade", because that would mean that you had orgasm in Belgrade. You "came TO Belgrade". Second, you didn't "have only 5 years", but you "were 5 years old". And third, you are a Serb who left Knin in 1995, and I see that you have your own point of view, but there are Croats who were forced to leave Knin in 1991. And they have their point of view as well. This is Wikipedia, an encyclopedia. Let us try to be objective and neutral. Let people who know about these things talk and edit these articles.
Croatia celebrates a military operation that ended the war in their homeland, with support from the United States and CIA intelligence. If the Serbs did not declare a seperate state within the country and forced out the Croatian population in the region, the operation never would have been needed.
What is wrong with me saying that the Serbs of Knin were ethnically cleansed and that Bosnian Croats were settled in the town? --estavisti 07:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Because it wasn't ethnic cleansing. Srebrenica, Rwanda, Cambodia, that kind of stuff is ethnic cleansing. The only way the operation would have been ethnic cleansing was if it was for the sole purpose of killing/purging the area of its Serbian inhabitants. But the point of the operation was to free the Croatian territory under occupation after 4 years of failed negotiations, with the Croats in the area being forced to flee during the development of RSK. If lets say there was a large ethnic group living in one area, and a war began against another and the other side wanted push out that group from the land just so they can purify it, then the term "cleansing" might be used. But in this case, Operation Storm was used to stop the Serbian aggression in Croatia and free the territory. If there are any other concerns on this subject, I will try my best to answer them.
Jesuislafete
Sorry, proper signature--Jesuislafete 05:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The sight of the Croatian flag on Knin fortress is a beautiful sight indeed. --Jesuislafete 21:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that if you don't hold down a certain line you must be anti-Croatian, which is very odd, so I guess, according to jesuislafete newspapers, commentators, our citizens must all hate the idea of Croatianism when they tel the truth or speak about problems we deal with day to day. Knin is Knin, it has it's problems that are the product of self interested groups who care less about the progres of the town, and the day to day life of it's citizens than their own bank balance and political standing. A great idea would be for those who grasp one side or other of some notional argument to try make a living here, it's tough and very very perspective changing. hobelar, 07.04.07
Here should talked about Knin, and not about Serbs and Croats. Both of those nations are now living in Knin and that is what is most important at the moment. Also, both nations should be mentioned (without national prefixes and passions) in Knin's history, because both of them created it. So as Turks, Venetian and Austrians who created the biggest history monument in those parts of Croatia, the Knin fortress where I spend my childhood. And at the end, there is no big difference between Croats and Serbs individually, because they acted pretty much the same,...before the war, during the war and after the war. And don't search for truth and written arguments in Croatian or Serbian books, because there want be truth as long as it can be used by both Croatian and Serbian politicians, a that will be in next 40-50 years, maybe.
So please, get focus on Knin and his beauty, and leave our children to interpret what had happened...
Hereis the place where you can continue your discussion...
--kliker 00:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
SIMPLY READ THIS PAGE... this information is very well known. http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/pre-wwOne/Krajina-Serbs.html
Everything here is confusing : ) But my main point was to defunct that website as a "proper source." Heck, I find things written by Croats and Bosnians similar to that and people trying to use them as "factual". --Jesuislafete 01:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's the link about the battle for Knin.
It's in Croatian.
Presudna bitka za Knin (Decisive battle for Knin) and Padom Knina Dalmacija je oslobođena (With the fall of Knin, Dalmatia is liberated).
In those articles Knin area is mentioned as about "chetnik nest". Kubura 20:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:Kninold logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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Image:Knin (grb).gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 10:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
First off, what does it matter if the "organization" is non-profit? Just look at it--a pro Serbian website which distorts facts and adds it's own invented ones in there as well. The author acts as if the Republic of Serbian Krajina is a legitimate state! "On the territory of the former SR of Croatia are situated two republics: the Republic of Croatia (capital Zagreb) and the Republic of Serb Krajina (here below RSK, capital Knin)." How is this objective?『The authentic Croatia is, in fact, the region of the kajkavian and čakavian (Croatian littoral) dialects.』(not so subtle that everything else is Serbian.) "The most tragic thing was the loss of Dubrovnik which 'breathed Serbian'. It is true that the fight of the Serbian people for Dubrovnik in the 19th century was made difficult because Austria was pronouncedly Catholic and under a very strong influence of the Vatican." I'm not even going to comment on that, the quote alone is absurd enough.
May I also remind you that this is a page about the city of Knin, not how the Serbian population settled into Croatia during Turkish times. Take these examples: "The greater portion of the ethnic area of the Serb on the territory of the former SR of Croatia was settled by the Serbs from the 15th century to...... They fled from the Turks and moved along with them. In the war zone (north-western Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, Banija, Slavonija), vast regions became completely or almost completely deserted." Once again, this has nothing to do with Knin, and information like that does not belong in this page let alone that section. Basically, the entire thing rambles on about how Serbs came to Croatia--not talking about Knin--and the Military frontier, which has NOTHING to do with demography. --Jesuislafete 23:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Knin's demographics changed over time. This is why it is important to say how this happened, the migration of serbs and the invasion of ottoman turks. The AustroHungarians gave land to the Serbs, and so serbs moved the military frontier. This is why there were many serbs along the border with Bosnia. -LAz17 25, June
The Demographic information is wrong. The Serbs were the majority in Knin before World War II. Ethnic maps show this to be so. The resources used for references are very biased. -LAz17 25, June
Aye, Knin's demographics have changed over time (almost everywhere in Turkish-threatened areas have). The Austro-Hungarians let the Serbs settle in the Military Frontier (which by the way Knin was never a part of), they did not "give" the land to Serbia. The official government's website of Knin says Croats were the majority in Knin before WWII, how can they be biased? I wonder if you have any reliable sources backing up your claims. --Jesuislafete 19:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it fair to say that the Croat government is anti-serbian biased? At least that's how they were during Tudjman's time, so that probably explains the website.
There are ethnic maps that suggest otherwise. One site that had a good map is down. It's from 1939, but at least there is a very small picture of it - here, (edit: link expired)
Also, the germans made an ethnic map of yugoslavia - I think it was based on previous maps. It shows knin and its surroundings with a serbian majority. Yes, Knin was not part of the military frontier, as it was in the dalmatian zone. Still, this region was one that the turks took control of, and where the same thing happened as in the vojna krajina region - serbian populations increased.
Also, I added the 1961 census and 1981 census data. I think more data should be added, but I only have the '61 and '81 data, not '71 or other dates.
-LAz17 - 26 June
Some more ethnic map links that show that Knin was of a serbian majority...
http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/trachtenberg/courses/AUSTRIA.GIF
http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/europe/Balkanization.JPG
I have provided the info on the ethnic composition of the town of Knin from the Department of Geography, University of Zadar [1].
Thanks, anonymous dude. I put a table from the data that he publication had. -LAz17 - July 11, 2007
Image:Kninold logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 03:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the people on both sides of this "discussion" conveniently forget that both the Serbs and the Croats committed their share of atrocities in the wars. I spent time in Knin and indeed throughout the former Yugoslavia from 1993 on and was deeply saddened by the behavior and actions of all sides. Death is death, weather it happens to a Bosniak, Serb or Croat. I saw too many young men, women and children slaughtered in the name of "national pride." Nothing can justify the blood of innocents. Shame on you all. Danieldeveau (talk) 22:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
More images of Knin need to be put in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zvonimir City (talk • contribs) 10:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Can someone put info about the economy of Knin.
Can someone put Knin's logo on the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zvonimir City (talk • contribs) 10:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
AUGUST 2008
I have lived here in Knin for the past 2.5 years and have to say NO ONE from any "side" has cause to celebrate anything relating to the war. This includes those who originate from here, BOTH Serbian and Croat, and the misplaced persons who now currently populate this small town who are of a totally different mentality and culture.
For a region that was so rich in culture, natural beauty and history it is only a huge waste and nothing else. Alex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.1.169 (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
It was actually added to the article in October 2006; whatever the original reason was, it is hardly applicable to the present article in its entirety. If there are remaining POV issues, please tag the offending sentences and/or sections. GregorB (talk) 12:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)