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I have removed the section regarding the notion that Roman Mithricism was an Persian-independent product. Of course scholars may agree that the Roman beliefs were distinct, but it's plainly evident that they predominately sourced from Zoroastrian beliefs. For god sake, the Romans even admitted that their beliefs were based off of Zoroastrianism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.196.88.228 (talk) 22:48, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
the commonalities between roman Mythriasm and the Persian ... undeniabledoes not support any claim of ancestry. Similar does not mean decended from. To treat similarities as the justification for such claims is original research. We can only use statements from reputable reliable sources as justification for any claims made on Wikipedia.
'Western' Scholars tend to underrate the influence of the Persians on Roman Mythriasm, but — as I already mentioned — we depend on academic sources for what goes into Wikipedia. If you disagree with modern scholarship on the matter, Wikipedia is not the place for you to have this debate. Discussions at Wikipedia do not influence academic research. —Sowlos 11:20, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I sorta feel as if the IP misunderstood both me and the article in the first place. The article seems to me to say that the Roman Mithras was a reconceptualization of the Persian deity, and thus the connections are indeed "undeniable". But since the individual cults of Mithras themselves differed from each other in matters of liturgy and such, it's implausible to imagine that they directly preserve authentic Persian rites in an original form. Again, compare the ceremonies of Isis in the Roman Imperial world: an Egyptologist would be able to show how these were a distinct product of that world, and not an unadulterated replica of Isis worship in Egypt a thousand years prior to the Greco-Roman era.
What Cynwolfe and yourself mentioned, reflects the notorious aversion of historical facts. Wikipedia should not be about the making of history to suit our tastes (and with that I mean, not arbitrarily selecting sources that support personal opinions, no matter how fantastic). That is rather, self-delusion at it's finest. Of course, there is a lot of quackery that supports that Roman Mitriasm and Zorostarinism have nothing to do with each other. But all reality would suggest other wise. If you are stuck owing the entirety of your history, to ancient proto-Persians, then that is really your problem - don't take it out on the truth 167.1.146.100 (talk) 18:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Or look at the varieties of Christian worship: how much resemblance would a neutral observer find between the services at a small Appalachian evangelical church on Sunday morning, and Christmas Eve mass conducted by the Pope? Other than invoking the name of Jesus Christ, the two ceremonies have so little in common that we might not identify them as the same religion. One is conducted in English, the other in Latin. The Appalachian minister may or may not wear a collar, but his dress would in no way resemble the robes of the cardinals. The physical houses of worship are vastly incommensurate. It's only because the history of Christianity is well documented that we can understand the connection. The history of the Mithraic mysteries is not well documented. Responsible scholars only make assertions based on evidence. They can assert that the Roman Mithraists believed they were heirs to the Persian tradition, and they can use comparative methodologies, but the origin of Mithraic mysteries among the Romans is simply not documented. There are no records of transmission. Our lack of knowledge is just an unfortunate fact.
If the IP would like to continue the discussion, (s)he should point out misleading sentences in the article and suggest an alternate wording. (I've found sentences in Mithraic articles that vastly overstate the more nuanced positions of the sources.) What sentences "deny" that the Mithraists said they based their religion on Persian traditions? How can we make more accurate statements? We need comments specific enough to be actionable. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion was over two years old. If you have something new to say (based on professionally-published mainstream academic sources), start a new section. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have tried to make reasonable edits in agreement with the majority of Mithraic scholars, however, these are constantly reverted by Apologetic editors. Please do not revert sensible edits, which are well referenced. If you wish to include a point, it has to be broadly, even if not unanimously, supported. Your inclusion of an arcane reference from Apologetics of the time, which implies that Christianity influenced Mithriasm, without allowing for the inclusion of the opposing view, is more likely giving the reader a misleading, if not backwards, impression of what is factually the case. While there are only a few sources that support the view that Christianity influenced Mitrhaism, there are dozens which suggest the opposite. 2601:882:100:EF90:71ED:61CE:DAA3:8613 (talk)
Justin Martyr, was clearly an apologetic of the time. Your giving the impression that his view is somehow valid, when in fact it is Apologetic defense against what is a very reasonable view that Christianity was based on Mithraism. Why are including references to a few mainstream historians, and rejecting references to the plethora of Mainstream historians, which hold an opposing view (that Christanity was clearly influenced by Mithraism)? That can only suggest that the editors have a religious bias towards Christanity, defending against the inclusion of any sources which have opinions that are unfavorable to them, and no matter how reasonable. 73.21.249.45 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:29, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no trouble finding academic sources to support my view, a very widely supported one. These references were included somewhere along the line of edits to this article. And all of these were removed to support irrationally persistent view that Christianity had no influence from Mithriasm. (as one author said, denying such is 'pointless'). At present, your view is not consistent with the mainstream scholarly view. Despite your protestations, the article needs major work. 2601:882:100:EF90:CD5E:F0D:D5C4:D6F0 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:53, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just happened on this article while doing some cursory research on Mithras. After reading the article and the talk here, I find the complete lack of any mention of Paul of Tarsus' brand of Christianity wholly alarming. Yes, it is controversial that Paul lifted his version of "Jesus" from Mithraism while living in "Arabia" and that Paul's hometown of Tarsus was but a stone's throw from Antioch, the main center of Mithraic worship in the first century. This is NOT original research by any stretch of the imagination. It has been speculated on by both apologists, theologians and historians for centuries. This entire article is highly BIASED, unreasonable in its deliberate omissions; furthermore the excuses of this or that published author being an "apologist" vs. "historian" is beyond weak if the facts presented are corroborated with other sources. The gatekeepers of this article should be reprimanded by Wikipedia for blatant censorship while misusing Wikipedia's guidelines as their excuse for their bias. I'm reporting this article. Beau.Beauchamp (talk) 13:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply] |
- I reverted the change from BCE to BC for the following reasons:
I noticed this sentence in the other religions section:
Michael Speidel, who specializes in military history, associates Mithras with the Sun god Orion.
But Orion is not a sun god is he? Does anyone have access to the source that can clarify what this means? Is it a misinterpretation of the text, is the author mistaken, or am I wrong? Ashmoo (talk) 10:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is it worth mentioning (and are there any interesting/useful sources) that this is the religion in the HBO sci-fi series Raised by Wolves? I honestly didn't even know this was a real historical religion and had thought it was made up for that show. Wclark (talk) 17:50, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]