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One paragraph from #Background section of wikipedia article on horse's ownership history closely paraphrased by Blood-Horse article. The subsequent history is confused as the Wikipedia article has been updated with other material, including some from the article noted here.
Slight conflict of evidence. Best sources say he was pulled up, but others that he completed in last place. I haven't seen the race. The page has been regularly updated with result: I have tried to turn into it a better article by putting it into continuous prose. Tigerboy1966 16:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good article improvement. I've noticed that the Equibase results sheets list horses pulled up as finishing last in the initial set of stats, though the narrative usually describes the outcome (note the Juvenile Fillies from Nov. 2, where Secret Compass broke down and was euthanized on the track, she's listed as finishing last in the basic stats, though the narrative clearly says she was put down) my suspicion is that some writers are just sloppy and use the list at the top of the page and are incapable of scrolling. Ever notice that we wikipedia writers who care actually wind up doing a better job than a lot of these reporters? I suppose the double-checking and constant scrutiny our articles get is part of the reason why. Heeheehee... Montanabw(talk)19:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Saw a clip of the race broadcast, he was pulled up but galloped (almost a canter) across the finish line, clearly not lame, but the jockey (Mike Smith in that race) stated there was "something wrong inside." Will go into the health stuff and get it all sorted out. Montanabw(talk)20:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all. Froggerlaura was kind enough to start a racing statistics chart for this article, but I've been trying to help, the horse has 23 races to date. Question: Any interest in trying to bring this up to featured article quality with an eye to having it run as TFA around the time of next year's Breeders' Cup? Can we assemble a team? Montanabw(talk)07:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If the picture is admissible, I have another one of him winning the Breeders' Classic. I didn't want to upload it if there was doubt about the other one. Froggerlauraribbit23:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article looks excellent now. Just a reminder that in mid Jan there are two things that will probably need adding. The Eclipse awards (MMM will at least be nominated), and the final LONGINES World's Best Racehorse Rankings (formerly the World Thoroughbred Racehorse Rankings) - MMM is 6th on the current list but will probably drop back to eighth behind Lord Kanaloa and Orfevre. Tigerboy1966 10:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We're only just beginning to enter 2013 on the stats chart (sheesh, the down side of a durable horse is entering a LOT of races! LOL!) Ping: Anyone know how to make the line spacing smaller? The font size shrunk OK< but the line spacing is still based on a default, is there a parameter to shrink it??
Can you also ping this article (or pop it in yourself)when the Longines list comes out? And is that a linked article? I should be able to spot the Eclipse award stuff when it is released, I hope, but I won't be sad if you beat me to the punch. I also want to add a bit about his assorted health stuff that hit him each year, see any problem with that? I'd kind of like to put this one up for GA (got Kathy Ritvo to GA already, but her article is shorter) Montanabw(talk)19:01, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PIping and forcing breaks helps, that's for sure. I think once I add the health hiccups stuff, I'll put the article up for GA, because it's going to get a lot of traffic once the Eclipse nominees are announced. You might want to see if Wise Dan needs a tuneup, he'll be the big contender for a repeat as HOY, and the racing press is having a great time right now debating if he's actually worthy or not... I think Will Take Charge and Game On Dude are OK enough, but always worth a quick tuneup. Montanabw(talk)20:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Be consistent with date formats in the article, there's a difference in the info box versus the prose.
Fixed, I think, we want US dates (mm-dd-yyyy), holler if you see any I missed. --MTBW
Not sure that's the Fort Larned you're after.
Fixed. --MTBW
Sometimes "Classic" is in the wikilink, other times it's outside the wikilink. Should be consistent.
Not sure consistency is the ideal but maybe it is. Discuss? - We have a problem in that we have 2013 Breeders' Cup, about that year's overall races, and we have Breeders' Cup Classic about the specific race, but all years. I tweaked the lead to link each one once. But unlike, say 2013 Kentucky Derby, no article about the specific race each year. He ran two years (2012 and 2013) and is being pointed to run it again in 2014. So for the rest of the article, I just don't know which way to go- the race or the year. What do you think would be the best solution, given the situation? -MTBW
"two and three-year-old" methinks I would have a hyphen after two here, so "two- and three-year-old..."
Fixed -- MTBW
"Kathy Ritvo, each survived from being near death in 2008; Kathy Ritvo..." no need to repeat first names after they're used the first time.
Fixed, want to be careful to avoid confusion, as her husband Tim briefly was the trainer of the horse. --MTBW
"Reeves'." never sure, but not understanding if you really need that apostrophe...
In "sold to Dean and Patti Reeves' Reeves Thoroughbred Racing" it's a possessive, so I think that is correct; tossed the other two. Does that work? --MTBW
"He he had lost". He he.
Aw, c'mon, you couldn't catch that in your other drive-by edits? LOL! FIXED! --MTBW
" the LONGINES World's Best Racehorse Rankings" maybe different for horse-racing articles but in football articles we tend to avoid sponsors (especially if they're SHOUTING!).
Yeah, and boy, I know I'm super-irritated by crap like this, -- saw other hiccups, so I tweaked a bunch of stuff there. --MTBW
Don't think you need to link Breeders' Cup in the 2013 section.
See above about the overall issue, but you are right about overlinking there, so I tossed most of it. Better now? --MTBW
David Cohen is a dab link.
I agree, but I don't know how to fix it with the sortname parameter on the chart - the other ones (Smith, Stevens) we used middle initial to get to the right article. This guy doesn't appear to have an article, and unlike both of those others, even equibase doesn't give me a middle initial. Any ideas how to fix this? --MTBW
Yeah, but how do you do a piped link when the name goes in as {{sortname|David|Cohen}}? Where do I put (jockey)? (Confused)? I'm open to suggestions. @Froggerlaura:, you are the chart guru, how do we do this, or can we? Montanabw(talk)19:13, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
FIXED. (Template instructions often confuse me, thanks for providing the example!) --MTBW
Sortable table so link all linkable items every time.
Bleech. OK. FIXED --MTBW
July 17 winning margin is just "length" and isn't sorting correctly if it just means by one length.
You know, I think the solution here is to make that an unsortable column. You OK with that? --MTBW
Also would expect neck and nose to sort as shorter than a length, but not below the N/As.n
Per above, not sure horse length really has consistent fractions for the wee little ones, so to avoid OR, I'm just going to not sort that column --MTBW
Nope, fixed (think it was done for the other horse article we swiped it from, one with only one trainer)
Is there a reason why odds can't all be to the same number of decimal places?
I think we took them straight from the charts that way, but I'm OK with putting them all to two places. Did I catch all of them? (eyesight sucks) --MTBW
You have Grade I in the prose but Grade 1 in the table, I would be consistent.
Fixed --MTBW
Why is Mr Prospector in bold?
In the pedigree? So are several others, I believe it is because these are Black Type horses (i.e. stakes winners). Standard jargon in race horse land, at least for the Thoroughbreds. Tigerboy1966 did the chart, I think, it's consistent across other Thoroughbred articles where the editor knows his/her pedigree stuff. --MTBW
It's to denote that MMM is "linebred"tee hee 4x4 to Mr. Prospector (usually has an explanation "appears twice in 4th generation of pedigree" or something to that effect below chart). Froggerlauraribbit 05:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
AH! @Froggerlaura:, can you add that bit? I can clean up the sourcing, we did the same for Oxbow at FAC. Montanabw(talk)08:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man:,@Froggerlaura:, OK, trout slap me if you want, but I went on a bender and added a bunch of new stuff to the pedigree section. Will need additional review. Also see the bit of extra material I added on Nick Petro, and on MMM's health problems in 2011 and 2013. I'll fix any screwups. Sorry to temporarily destabilize the article (and more will be added Saturday night or Sunday morning, after the Sunshine Millions and the Eclipse Awards ceremony). I hope we can finalize this GAN on Monday after the dust settles. Montanabw(talk)22:51, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man:: OK, I'm done adding assorted new material and yet another round of heartwarming stories and odd coincidences. Have at it. For convenience, this is the diff between your last edit and the present. I PROMISE to leave it alone now until you take a look (fingers crossed...) He won't race again until March, probably, so stable at this point. Montanabw(talk)01:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
" Dream Team Racing" and "Dream Team One Racing Stable" and "Dream Team One" Are these all the same entity?
Yes, I tossed one of those, and the only remaining time I have "Dream Team One" left is a sentence or so after saying "Dream Team One Racing Stable" -- it just seemed clunky to say the whole thing twice that close together, but if you want them all the same, I can live with it.. Do advise. --MTBW
"Mucho Macho Man endured several health.." this paragraph reads entirely as if his career has ended. Perhaps you could reword to make it clear he's still running.
Changed to "has overcome" -- does that work? I'm also torn between using past and present tense, present tense more logical, yet clunky sometimes. I'm open to thoughts on this. --MTBW
"to a glued-on horseshoe" just the one?
TYPO! Damn, thought I got all of those. FIXED--MTBW
"at odds of 6–1, " you have decimal odds in the table, any reason for the mix in format?
Narrative flow, mostly. People are familiar with the ratio format. Tigerboy did the original narrative, but Equibase uses decimal odds - and I also suck at conversions, so don't want to try converting the decimal odds for 23 races. This occurs on other horse racing articles. For example Oxbow (horse) which survived FAC with this same issue. --MTBW
The ref which shows him being 13th equal (currently ref 47) which has LONGINES in the ref doesn't have LONGINES mentioned.
"four and a half lengths" would expect the length to be hyphenated in prose.
Not required in US English. I hate excess hyphens. If it's an issue, you can add them and I won't remove them, though ;-) --MTBW
"Mucho Macho Man and his connections" followed by "the connections of Mucho Macho Man confirmed" repetitive.
Reworded two instances. Should be fixed now. Better? --MTBW
"It was." not quite the brilliant prose I'd expect.
OK, more brilliant now? ;-) --MTBW
"he handily won" don't think you need "handily" as the length of the win is self-explanatory.
I'm thinking about the kid who is living in his mom's basement, never saw a horse race, and would raise a WP:CHEESE argument here, c'mon! (Oh, all right, fixed!) --MTBW
Ref 69 should be Miami Herald in italics. Check other works in the refs.
I think I got the newspapers italicized. citeweb can create confusing results and running reflinks nods toward citeweb. But...Fixed? --MTBW
Lead needs to be expanded (I'm sure you already know this). Generally three to four paragraphs for an article of this length, but since there's a couple fairly large tables that make up a lot of the bulk, probably three paragraphs for summarizing the prose would be good.
Took the first whack, see what you think. Oxbow went through FAC with two and made it, just FYI. --MTBW
Ref #21 (Jicha, Tom) is a newspaper, right? If so, it should be formatted like the other newspaper articles used as sources.
I thought it was...I used cite web for all ? Where is the hiccup? --MTBW
For all of the other refs you have the newspaper as a "work", making it italicized. For this one, you had it as the "publisher", making it not italicized. I've fixed it so that it's consistent. Dana boomer (talk) 16:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Double check publishers. For example, #8 (Holy Bull profile) should have National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame as the publisher (it's the organization publishing the material), not the web domain (which is just hosting the material).
Fixed - are there others? (Need good eyes here... seriously) --MTBW
#65 Equibase or Equibase.com (the former is used for this ref, the latter for most (all?) of the other equibase refs). Double check to make sure they're all consistent.
Fixed--MTBW
#67, give full name for IFHA
Done --MTBW
Formatting for #74 versus #84 and 87. Consistency is the name of the game in FAC.
Background, "His dam is the 2001 Anoakia Stakes winner" - Sentence is talking about Mucho Macho Man, but comes just after a sentence discussing Macho Uno and Holy Bull, so the "his" to which the dam sentence is referring to is vague.
Froggerlaura got it, thanks!
I think that moving the note up to the end of the first paragraph of the Background section would probably be helpful for the reader. As a horse person I understand why it matters that he was born late, but someone who didn't understand the TB aging system would be going "huh?".
OK --MTBW
Background, "and was generally very fast out of the starting gate, which caused him problems in his early races" Is this referring to the fact that he kept tearing shoes off or something else not discussed in the Racing career section?
Mostly, I clarified that a bit. --MTBW
2012 - In general, watch this section for racing jargon. The main one that stood out to me was "had been carried wide", which is not immediately understandable through context, especially for readers who aren't TB-race regulars.
Other examples? I linked some stuff to the glossary --MTBW
2014, " they also decided not to run him in the Dubai World Cup" Why the sudden mention of Dubai? Was it actually a possibility? Is it common for winning American TBs to travel to the Middle East?
Pedigree, " the Rios resold her at Keenland" Are we missing an "e" in "Keeneland" or is this a different sale?
You said on my talk page that he will retire at the end of this season. Has that been officially announced? If so, it should probably be included somewhere.
Yes, in the same source as the Stronach purchase, I mention it in the "Background" section where I summarized his ownership - is there a way it can be better done? --MTBW
Do you mean where it says "In February 2014, anticipating his future stud career,"? I read that as "at some vague point in the future, he'll have a stud career." If it's definite that he'll be retired, why not say something like "In month, year, it was announced that Mucho Macho Man would retire from racing at the end of the 2014 season. He will then be put to stud at xxx farm."
Unfortunately, the sources are not that specific; it's implied but no firm dates are set, maybe look at the stuff cited, particularly Blood-Horse. I amopen to ways to say it better. It can be inferred that he will retire at the end of this year, as the new part-owner is a major stud farm, and the connections have all but said as much, but they haven't SPECIFICALLY said as much... see see e.g. 2nd paragraph of this source. Montanabw(talk)20:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, very solid. Expanding the lead is the biggest thing, followed by making sure refs are consistent and prose is accessible to non-TB-familiar people. A few other prose niggles, but nothing major. Dana boomer (talk) 20:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments, Dana. You would be most welcome if you want to dive in and fix some of the things you have raised here; some of the small work I find difficult - I have recently been informed that I will probably need cataract surgery sometime this year, so that's kind of an excuse (remember that detached retina I had in '07? The cataract is a consequence of that, plus one is starting in my other eye too - getting to be over 50 just sucks some days...) I find the cite web template a bit frustrating, as "publisher" and "work" seem a bit redundant and I often only need one or the other. "Work" will italicize, "publisher" does not. Yet "cite news" is even more inconsistent. Any thoughts on all that? Montanabw(talk)06:10, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My mom had cataract surgery a few years ago - she had been delaying it and then one morning picked up a novel and couldn't see to read...called her eye doctor and scheduled an immediate appointment. She said she didn't care if she couldn't see well for other things, but that not being able to read was unacceptable :) She was miserable for a few days, but is now super happy she had it done. For the cite web template, it works like this: "Publisher" is the organization that put the information on the website. "Work" is used if the specific page is part of a larger work. So, if the University of Oregon publishes a web page called "Trees of Oregon" as part of their online "Oregonian Encyclopedia", then "Trees of Oregon" would be the title, "Oregonian Encyclopedia" would be the work and "University of Oregon" would be the publisher. Cite news is even easier: use "title" for the title of the article, "newspaper" for the title of the newspaper and ignore anything else. Additional replies, etc. above. Dana boomer (talk) 16:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know that the cataract surgery is generally a good thing; the detached retina surgery was not my idea of a good time (If your mom wants to message me on FB, that would be fine I like to talk to other people my age who have had it done...) As for publisher and work, I get it when it's different, but, for example, Blood-Horse, I'mnever sure what to do when work and publisher are one and the same. As for cite news, I've had trouble with that template producing results inconsistent to cite web, so I tend to use cite web for everything that I find online. Also, I did a lot of the sourcing here with reflinks and missed fixing some of the automated things... :-P Montanabw(talk)20:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There could be a key table for distances as below, allowing the race distances to be given as, for example, "6 fur" in the main table. On second thoughts, the "distance" column is wide enough to use "8.5 furlongs", so you don't need to abbreviate the unit.
Conversion of distances in furlongs to miles/yards and meters
You could abbreviate the ownership, the distance or both, depending on taste and that would determine the number of separate tables. If you want to make the main table more compact, you have to put the information somewhere else: therefore you must have more tables because jamming keys/legends into extra rows of a table screws it up for screen readers and completely buggers the sortability. You could float the key/legend tables left and right so that they fit next to each other. The reader should be able to rapidly recognise an abbreviation, so wouldn't RTRTooltip Reeves Thoroughbred Racing be about 1,000,000 times more recognisable than * when standing for Reeves Thoroughbred Racing? (Check when you mouseover the abbreviation.) You won't get the column any narrower than the heading ("Owner") anyway. For what it's worth, I'd add that being able to sort on "Owner" is pretty worthless in my humble opinion, so that might save several pixels as sortable columns are always wider by the size of the sorting arrow icons. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 00:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your explanations. I'll play with this. I think Froggerlaura figured out some way to make columns sortable without the little arrow icons. Youguys who understand this syntax and markup stuff have my admiration! Montanabw(talk)02:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@RexxS:, OK, now I have more questions about the chart: First off, why do we need "! scope="row" style="font-weight:normal;" for every entry? Removing it appears to change nothing. Second, at least in my browser (Safari) the font in the chart is now larger than the article body text font and thus, even after removing the "surface" column and abbreviating the ower names, the chart is wider than ever. Third, adding the alt text for the †and ‡ symbols appears to have overridden the nonbreaking space and now that whole column is two rows high, which I don't want,plus the alt text version is not bolded any more, so now it looks funny. Help? or Fix? Montanabw(talk)23:41, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're not using a screen reader, so if I've done it right, you should see very little difference between having a row header with scope or not. The ! means that the cell is a header, <th>...</th>, rather than a normal data cell, <td>...</td>, and the scope tells the browser that it's a column or row header. Marking up header cells for each column and row allows a screen reader like JAWS to navigate up, down, left, right around a table, hearing the row & column headers for each cell (like "Mar 26, 2011; race; Louisiana Derby") if the user wants to. The guidance is at MOS:DTAB and you'll find that all Featured Lists include this markup.
I have no idea why in your Safari, the font should be larger in the table. In Chrome, Firefox, Opera and Internet Explorer the font-size in both the main text and the table is 12.8px. You don't have any custom css as far as I can see. Could you mail me a screenshot and I'll see if I can work out what is happening. Is anybody else seeing different font sizes between main text and table? @Nikkimaria: How does the table look now?
I can't fix the issue with the daggers. The problem with the † character is that screen readers usually skip it - see this comment from a blind editor. There is a detailed account of the creation of the template {{†}}, which produces † as an image, at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Philadelphia Phillies all-time roster (C)/archive1 from three years ago - it does explain why we use an image with alt text. I've made an attempt to get over the problem by replacing † with * and ‡ with #. I doubt that looks right either, so perhaps the best solution would be to use the reference system to link the main table headings with the key table captions? --RexxS (talk) 01:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can make the asterisk thing work. WIll send you a screenshot; the difference is minimal, but maybe a point size or two. As for the rest, if it makes accessibility work, I'm groovy with that. Montanabw(talk)21:08, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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This is an FA-class article and a progeny chart is a major addition. It is awkward, holds potential for edit disputes, and generally not suitable for this article, as the content can be discussed in the narrative text. Should the horse become a Sunday Silence and have massive numbers of notable progeny, a separate list article can be created. Montanabw(talk)21:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
