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Moriscos or Mudejars.
After reference to the Wiki page on Moriscos, there seems to be a conflict of terms. Here Morisco is deemed to mean those Muslims living in Spain before the expulsion. However, the Morisco page states that Moriscos are Chritstians who once were Iberian Muslims. A definition of terms would be appreciated.
Sven.
This article does not sufficiently cite sources, and seems to include personal POV and bias. Please consider revising.
Baseline24 (talk) 05:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE
About "Moriscos": indeed, this term is often misunderstood. But the article makes it clear, stating: "This revolt enabled the Catholics to claim that the Muslims had violated the terms of the Treaty of Granada, which were therefore withdrawn. Throughout the region, Moors were now forced to choose between conversion to Christianity or exile. Some did indeed emigrate to North Africa. Those who remained became known as "Moriscos" or "New Christians"...
This is consistent with the Wikipedia article on Moriscos, to which there is a link.
Bergerie (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an "ordinary" revolt that is limited to the level of populace, peasants or nobility. And not a revolt against certain measures, or certain advisors, but a fully fledged secession and independence war. They proclaimed their own king, Aben Hommeya, who was a descendant of Moorish kings in a straight line. In dynastical terms we would even have a legitimate ruler here! Intellectuals of all times may have chosen to call it a revolt, and with the derisive term Morisco connected to it, but just look at the facts: this is a secession, coupled with an independence war. The term Morisco is worse than calling someone "negro" or "eskimo" because it became in use as a deliberately meant derisive term by one of the parties involved, and therefore lacking neutrality, including as a wikipedia article by people who should have known better. I understand though that the term Morisco is very common in use, and not meant derisively by those modern people who are ignorant of the real facts.
Still, I propose, from now on, to call it the Moorish Independence War. Both for politically correct reasons, and for the accuracy of the use of language in historiography. We have the same right to give it a name as anyone before us. It's up to us to set this straight for future generations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.84.44 (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE
The events in question have always been called "Rebellion" or "Revolt" (or the equivalents in Spanish). To use the word "Independence" would project a present-day concept, which would be inappropriate and confusing.
As for "Morisco", see answer above. This was the term applied at the time by the Spanish to those Moors who had converted to Christianity (or were supposed to have done so). But it is true that this is not well understood, so it would be better in the title to refer to "Moors".
Bergerie (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE 2
Absolutely not. Conquest cuts both ways, and Muslims don't have a monopoly on conquering others, may I remind you that. What happened in Spain was poetic justice and the Visigoths would've have marked that karma is a bitch, if they were still around (and believed in karma).
RESPONSE 3
Can we all avoid stupid comments and discussions. Its a historical article not a football blog.Asilah1981 (talk) 14:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The second rebellion led to the expulsion of almost all Moors (or "Moriscos") from the city and province and marked the end of Islamic presence in Spain."
This is wrong. The Moriscos from the Kingdom of Granada were scattered over the rest of Spain, but the expulsion of all Moriscos from Spain (ending Islamic presence in Spain) was only decreed in 1609, several decades after the end of the second rebellion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.85.55.171 (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE
The consequences of the 1568-71 rebellion in the Kingdom of Granada should not be confused with the expulsion at the beginning of the 17th century of "Moriscos" remaining anywhere in Spain. The text should now be clear: it reads "Most of the Moorish population was then expelled from the Kingdom of Granada, and were sent to other parts of Spain. As this left the mountain villages almost empty, Catholic resettlers were brought in from other parts of Spain." And in a new paragraph: "Subsequently, from 1609, remaining Moriscos were expelled from all over Spain: see expulsion of the Moriscos."Bergerie (talk) 08:34, 31 October 2015 (UTC) Bergerie (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article currently has a number of uncited statements of opinion, such as "there was little or no follow-up in terms of explaining Christianity: indeed, the priests themselves were mostly too ignorant to do so". These should be cited or removed. DES (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
RESPONSE
The source for that statement is now cited, and other references will be added where appropriate.
Bergerie (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The first two entries in the Notes section are self-references and should be removed or perhaps moved to this talk page. The same is true for some of the content in the Sources section, neither the English- nor the Spanish-Language Wikipedia should be mentioned. DES (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As regards the title: "Morisco rebellions in Granada" is unsatisfactory, because the term "Moriscos" is often misunderstood (see above) and because "Granada" can be taken to refer just to the city, whereas the rebellions - especially the second - took place mainly in the mountains of the Alpujarra. Also, since the Moors were revolting against Christian rule and "Morisco" means a Moor converted to Christianity, the wording is self-contradictory. So the clearest and most accurate title would be:
"REBELLIONS OF THE MOORS (MORISCOS) IN THE KINGDOM OF GRANADA"
If that is too long, we could leave out (MORISCOS).
Bergerie (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Asilah1981 (talk) 19:59, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bergerie I honestly don't understand what you mean by there being a confusion with the term Moriscos. It is pretty straightforward concept and well known historical group and has not one but two relevant articles on wikipedia. Their definition is simple: Nominally christian (by decree) Spanish subjects of Muslim background suspected of continuing to practice Islam. As for the issue of Granada, the Morisco rebellions occured in the Kindgom of Granada (modern day Granada, Almeria and Malaga provinces), including the Granada city but ocurring mainly in the Alpujarras which is the south side of Sierra Nevada. We can't rename historical events on the basis of hoping they will be found more easily using keywords when looking them up. Frankly, I have never heard of an argument like this on wikipedia and it really sounds bizarre to say the least. There are much more obscure names than "War of the Alpujarras" on wikipedia such as the football war for example. No one would ever consider renaming it for the sake of making it easier to find on Google.... My opinion: Leave it as it is or change to its most commonly used name War of the Alpujarras. Definitely do NOT equate Morisco with Moorish, that would highlight a massive misunderstanding of Spain and Spanish history. Asilah1981 (talk) 20:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bergerie there were genuine converts to christianity all over Spain, but that doesn't change the fact that, as I said, they were suspected as a community of continuing to practice Islam. In any case, this is not the reason why I so strongly disagree with your proposal, perhaps i have explained myself badly:
By the 16th century, after 9 centuries of Islamic presence in Spain, you can't really speak of "Moors", which sounds like they are some foreign or invading people. There were Spanish subjects who were legally either "Mudejares", officially recognized as Muslims or "Moriscos", New Christians officially Catholic. It is worth noting that Caro Baroja mentions in his seminal work "Los moriscos del reino de granada" that after the expulsion from Granada, many moriscos returned pretending to be either Old Christians (not recent converts to christianity) or, more surprisingly, pretending to be Mudejares i.e. beloning to the 500 or 600 Mudejar legally muslim families which remained in Granada, had not participated in the revolt and were not expelled from the city.
I would understand and perhaps agree with you if there was some alternate or more commonly used meaning of the term Moriscos, or if the article MoriscosorExplusion of the Moriscos had been renamed to Explusion of the Moriscos (Moors in Spain)orExplusion of the Moriscos (Former Muslims in Spain). But its not the case and would make the article look amateurish. The only example I can think of which supports your point is that the article on "Gitanos" has been renamed Roma in Spain, despite the fact that there are plenty of Roma of foreign extraction in Spain who are neither Spanish nor Gitano. But there are sufficient strong reasons for this: Roma are a transnational identity with dozens of different names in different countries and it wouldn't make sense to totally disconnect them through different names.Asilah1981 (talk) 23:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bergerie Your argument makes sense also, since there is no article on this event in Spanish wiki, and is just englobed in a general article called "Revuelta Mudejar" referring to multiple events across the the country. (The Spanish for revolt is "Revuelta" in the femenine btw). I would change "moor" to Muslim/Mudejar though. Moor or Moorish is a term which I don't think is appropriate, particularly since it is not used in Spanish history when refering to those muslims under christian rule. Moor/Moorish has connotation of either a recent foreign invader or, at the least, a muslim political/military power on the peninsula. Finally, I think the first revolt is given too much significance in this article. It should simply be part of a wider "context" section. Asilah1981 (talk) 11:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
SPANISH WIKIPEDIA ON 1st REBELLION BELOW:https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_los_moriscos#Corona_de_Castilla
El 18 de diciembre de 1499, sólo tres meses después de la llegada de Cisneros a Granada, los mudéjares del Albaicín se sublevaron y sólo depusieron las armas tres días después gracias a los buenos oficios del conde de Tendilla y del arzobispo Talavera10 a quienes los sublevados les dijeron "que se tornarían cristianos y haría todo lo que el arzobispo y el conde mandasen con tal que el arzobispo de Toledo [Cisneros] saliese de Granada".11
Pero en enero de 1500 la rebelión se extendió a las Alpujarras y duró tres meses, llegando a ocupar algunas fortalezas costeras. En octubre de 1501 una nueva rebelión se produjo por las tierras de Almería y no fue sofocada completamente hasta mediados del año siguiente, coincidiendo con una cuarta revuelta que tuvo su epicentro en la serranía de Ronda. En la represión de esta última intervino el propio rey Fernando el Católico. La consecuencia de estas rebeliones fracasadas fue la conversión en masa de los mudéjares, presos del pánico y pensando obtener mejores condiciones de los vencedores. Las nuevas capitulaciones firmadas por varias comunidades mudéjares y los representantes de los soberanos, como las de Tabernas, Baza y Huéscar, son significativas en este sentido pues en ellas se expresa el compromiso de que estos cristianos nuevos sean sometidos al régimen común, aboliéndose los impuestos exclusivos que pagaban hasta entonces y teniendo acceso a los cargos locales, manteniéndose además el aprovechamiento comunal de los pastos. Incluso se establecía un castigo para los cristianos viejos que los injuriasen llamándolos "moros" o "tornadizos". Asimismo se les reconocían ciertos derechos culturales pero no de forma completa, como disponer de sus propios carniceros, pero debiendo matar las reses "por la orden e manera que las matan los cristianos", o mantener sus formas tradicionales de vestir "hasta que rasguen los vestidos que agora tienen".12
El cardenal Cisneros defendió la idea de que los mudéjares debían "ser convertidos y esclavizados, porque como esclavos serán mejores cristianos, y la tierra quedaría segura para siempre". Los reyes, por el contrario, eran partidarios de una política más moderada. Así lo contó Fernando el Católico a sus consejeros:10
Cuando vuestro cavallo haze alguna desgracia no echáis mano de la espada para matarle, antes les das una palmada en las ancas. Pues mi voto y el de la reyna es que estos moros se baptizen. Y si ellos no fuesen cristianos, seránlo sus hijos o sus nietos. Las conmociones del reino de Granada condujeron a los Reyes Católicos a promulgar una real cédula el 12 de febrero de 1502 en la que se obligaba a los mudéjares de toda la Corona de Castilla a escoger entre la conversión al cristianismo o el destierro. La inmensa mayoría optó por la conversión. A partir de esa fecha los mudéjares castellanos pasaron a ser moriscos.9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asilah1981 (talk • contribs) 11:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bergerie Please do not stop editing this article, particularly if you have worked significantly on it in the past. I contribute to wikipedia only sporadically, but personally I have an interest in the moriscos and their obscure history and your efforts are very much appreciated.Asilah1981 (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
INTRODUCTORY PARAGRAPH
Asilah1981 I have returned to this article in order to update the reference to the very important work by Javier Castillo Fernandez, now a book of 571 pages. I found the article in a terrible state - someone who did not know how to edit...
I also find that you insist on adding a paragraph at the end of the introduction. This now reads: "Between 1609 and 1614, the Spanish Crown undertook the expulsion of the Moriscos from all over Spain. Although about half of Granada's morisco remained in the region after the dispersal, only 2000 were expelled from Granada, many remaining mixed with and protected by old Christians who were less hostile towards them than in other regions of Spain (notably Valencia)."
You quote two sources: one is unintelligible (Harvnp) and the other refers to two maps by Cortazar. I checked the latter last year and it does not provide the information in question.
Your statement that "about half of Granada's morisco [Moriscos] remained in the region after the dispersal" runs contrary to all the information I have gathered on the effects of the Spanish conquest. You may be confusing the city of Granada (where this is possible) with the Kingdom. Data provided by Vincent - the most authoritative source on these matters - indicate that the number of households in the Alpujarra (where most of the Moriscos lived) fell from over 8000 in 1568 before the rebellion to about 2500 in 1574, and these were mostly Christian resettlers.(One can extrapolate these figures to some 40,000 individuals before, mostly Moriscos, and about 7,300 afterwards (the Christian families were much smaller than Morisco ones).
I cannot accept such a misleading statement on a very important point and at the very beginning of the article. If you cannot produce better sources, then, please, yourself remove these statements.
I also query the figure of 2000 expelled from Granada (city or kingdom?) after 1609, and anyway this is confusing to the reader unless you make it clear that you are referring to the later expulsion - and the appropriate place for this is the article on that event.
≈≈≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.82.206.238 (talk) 15:05, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, yes with this topic its hard to reconcile figures since a lot of them are down to the opinion of each author. I don't think it was me who added those sources. Evidently the 2000 is the figure for the city of Granada not the kingdom (present day provinces of Granada, Almería and Málaga). For the Kingdom the Morisco population loss was around 100,000 - around 70,000 dispersed and the rest either killed during the conflict or escaping to north africa. The total number of Moriscos in Granada was estimated at between 120,000 and 140,000 - so this is where the confusion comes from. Between 20,000 and 30,000 remained after the expulsion and imagine a significant number returned as "christian" settlers. Also I would comment that it is wrong to believe the Alpujarras is where most of Moriscos lived - the Alpujarras is where the Moriscos rebelled and waged war (the Spanish expression "echarse al monte" comes from the common use of mountainous terrain as a base for rebellion throughout history). Both muslim and christian population was evidently denser in valleys and coastal areas. I'll try to use this rather thorough source as basis to make corrections. Read from p275 onwards and tell me what you think (its in Spanish, Im assuming this is your mother tongue). https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=1249217 Asilah1981 (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]