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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 10 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stevens412.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignmentbyPrimeBOT (talk) 08:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not getting into opinions here, but in a list of satires we put Fight Club, The Onion, The Daily Show etc., yet not Alexander Pope and his Rape of the Lock (which I've only just added)? Just as we've had to make a distinction between what is satire and what is parody, an equally important distinction is between satire and mere invective. Satire is a certain thing, and it isn't certain things. Satirizing isn't parodying, lampooning, attacking (for the hell of it), or whining. Satire, however presented, attacks something deemed unethical or at least foolish and offers a better solution, in this way proper satire offers no fantasies of that which cannot exist, only that which can and should exist.
Also, that Fight Club is satirical isn't even mentioned in the Fight Club article, nor is satire a link at the bottom though transgressional fiction is. It seems that Fight Club is either satirical or transgressional fiction, depending on whether we take it literally or allegorically, but not both.Maprovonsha172 00:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Where the hell is Voltaire?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.250.199 (talk) 08:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
White Noise isn't a satire of Consumerism, it is more of a comment on that and the other things mentioned in the article. I would hesitate to put any work of the last 50 years up on this page.
"Satire is Gay Sex-way of writing "I love you..."
What on earth is that supposed to mean? Is this comment simple vandalism??
Is 'Natural Born Killers' an example of satire? Although Oliver Stone claims this on the Director's Cut DVD, I would suggest it's a parody with satirical elements or techniques. Grace43 23:17, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps so... But that's for the viewer's to decide. 'Tho he might mean it like that. But we might take it seriously...Whatever. But how can a comment be 'Vandalism'? Last I checked, Vandalism was somehow destroying or tearing down something already constructed. 'Tho comments? They're just added views and opinions on it afterwards. And a fuzzy comparison, aswell... "Gay-Sex way of writing "I love you" - Is Satire? Yeah, well, if it's on other of your own sex. I think "Monosex" (Masturbation) would be a better word... It is against your own behalf, with the purpose to make other's who really think so look stupid. But 'kay, enough slap-stick humour from me, bah-meh! It's supposed to mean nothing.-OleMurder 23:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
cobra libra, or anyone else, are you interested in beginning a List of satirical literature, similar to the List of dystopian literature that can found on wiki? i imagine it would be set up similar to that on the dystopia page - that is, as a link to a separate page. i understand that there will be overlaps with works on the dystopia list, and you can't really separate satire from parody etc., but that's kinda my point. if a list is available, those who really want to find out, can read the works and surrounding criticism, and make a judgement of their own.
Would the Simpsons be considered Satire of Modern society, or does satire have to be purely political? Behind the veil
i should open my eyes :P Behind the veil
shouldnt there be a mention of the Simpsons? Behind the veil
It would be helpful to me if the article started with a real definition.--Mercutio Livingston 02:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, I would suggest that the definition proposed at the beggining is correct, but inaccurate. Sattire, as a genre, is written primarily for the sake of persuasion, not mere commentary. I would like to see the definition changed, and any elements removed which do not fall under this category. Of course, whether or not something "intends" to convince can be ambiguous, so I think it should come down to focus. If somethign is "commenting" on society [i] rapid fire[/i] it is, at best, a comedy, not a satire. skeptictank —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeptictank (talk • contribs) 05:56, 20 February 2007
Satire isn't limited to the television. Some people do appreciate stage satire, especially in the United Kingdom, where theatre isn't secretly censored for critical political content like in the United States. There ought to be a paragraph about stage satire, including its history, dating back to the Vision of the Golden Rump, a satire on the Hanoverian King George II, which at the time, was subject to enormous political satire. Television isn't the be-all and end-all. Theatre isn't yet dead on its feet, folks!
Last week I added Yes Minister and Spitting Image to the list of notable contemporary satire. Somebody has deleted the latter. Rather than start a revert war, I'll just ask what the problem is? Spitting Image was hugely successful in the UK and influenced a generation of satirists. I would have said it was marginally more influential even than Yes Minister, and certainly more so than No Quarter (which doesn't even have its own article). (Note that I am only able to compare notability in the UK, and I am assuming that the deleter is from the UK for the same reason.) Magnate 10:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I added both Yes Minister and Spitting Image because I feel that they are both extremely important examples of satire in popular culture, which is the title of the section. Neither is recent - both had their heyday almost 20 years ago - but both have left an enduring legacy in satire. Both were primarily satire, not just comedy with satirical elements. Both have wikipedia articles which support this. They are both more specifically satirical than other enduring comedy originating from the UK (eg. Monty Python). I think they should be the two most important UK entries in the list, along with Private Eye. Please do not delete either of them until we establish some sort of consensus on this. Magnate 14:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC) P.S. The only other UK entry in the list is Chris Morr/is - he's undoubtedly an influential satirist but it kind of depends how big the list ought to be. I don't think his contribution or influence is greater than the three UK satires mentioned above. Magnate 14:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What counts as satire (and comedy) is at least partly in the eye of the beholder. shouldn't the fact that Jonathan Swift was reviled as a monster for his "Modest proposal" serve as a warning to us that satire is a uniquely tricky literary genre?Brenda maverick 17:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC) So go easy on the deletions unless you have something to ADD, no?[reply]
Guys remember that we need to cite sources, otherwise we risk to add just junk material.--BMF81 17:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your'e right: let's go back to the medieval model of what counts as "knowledge". Let's pay more attention to what the authorites tell us than to our own close observations, and lets not use basic logic.
Bear with me --- I'm just not sure how calling attention to Hamlet's own logic (which is consistently discounted) counts as "original research." I love Aristophanes too, but why do you want to call him a satirist and not a comedian? We should try to keep the genres seperate.
I hate Bill O'Reilly as much as the next guy, but I'm going to go and change all the Reilly bashing under contemporary to just "controversial". Also, Colbert is f'cking hilarious and smart, but that section isn't very neutral.
The part about Jane Fonda and Gloria Steinem on the Colbert Report seems questionable to me. I saw the segment, doesn't the fact that they weren't offended by his stereotypical 50's man behavior show that they were in on the joke? I know some out of touch congresspeople have been caught off guard by Colbert, but I can't even fathom that two intelligent women like themselves don't know about Colbert. amRadioHed 04:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, the article has it that "an essential, defining feature of satire is a strong vein of irony or sarcasm," but then a little later on, states that "it is strictly a misuse of the word to describe as 'satire' works without an ironic undercurrent of mock-approval."
I was wondering a) if the latter doesn't somehow invalidate the former (the definition implies to me that satire does not have to contain irony), and b) what the technical term would be for a (written) piece, satirical in tone (or even purporting to be a satire), rich in sarcasm, but with no irony at all? Thanks!Extenebris 11:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
By definition, satire has either irony or sarcasm (often both). In fact is is probably pedantic to worry too much about the difference between irony and sarcasm in this context. Sarcasm is a crude form of irony, and one kind of irony, at least, can be seen as a subtle form of sarcasm.
Changing "without an ironic undercurrent of mock-approval." to "without an ironic (or sarcastic) undercurrent of mock-approval" might be a little clearer. -- Ok, thanks! Extenebris 12:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC) Satire is studied in college. Some people think that satire is the only form of pop culture worth taking seriously. Satire can be brave, but it's often unoriginal because it relies heavily on predictable stereotypes that we've all seen before. Sometimes satire gets things right and sometimes it gets things wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnigornia (talk • contribs) 21:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Still can't find a legitimate citation, but I believe that that incident took place in Georgia, not Florida. Perhaps it should be removed until the information is more conclusive.
So far I have found no evidence that the LAW targeted minorities (though it may have been enforced selectively). It targeted workers in certain businesses, as may be found in a contemporary source (http://books.google.com/books?id=1DoBn23tmQMC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=palm+beach+passcard+repeal+minorities&source=bl&ots=QEf5GtB4TY&sig=V7f_uIipCVD5DIuDbx4J-7quMgc&hl=en&ei=KNv9TaqRMMnr0gHfta2KAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false). These included nightclubs and bars, hotel staff, janitors, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.209.68.193 (talk) 11:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An anonymous contributor (IP 216.254.24.141) who uploaded a contribution to the David Horsey page and Image Talk:Reagan-digitised-poster_PNG.png has asserted that the Finnreklama Oy printed version of this poster used as the basis for this digitised version, was plagiarised from a David Horsey black and white original, BUT HAS NOT PROVIDED ANY EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF HIS/HER ACCUSATIONS. Finnreklama Oy's printed version is entitled to be regarded as their copyright unless and until the accuser can substantiate the accusations. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY has to be regarded as NOT-NEGOTIABLE. The digitiser is not involved directly in this dispute and is entitled to accept at face value Finnreklama Oy's poster as legitimate unless it is proven not to be so. It is not the digitiser's responsiblity to verify the copyright status of Finnreklama Oy's poster, or investigate the possibility of it being someone else's copyright. Or to police the copyright rules. The digitiser made no claim to possession of copyright conferred or not conferred by the considerable efforts needed to digitise the material for distribution to a wider audience. At this stage, no evidence has been presented, only unsubstantiated assertions, despite several attempts to inquire of the accuser for evidence. It is because of the accuser's failure to produce any evidence for the accusations made, that the poster caption on the Satire page has been reverted to its original form. If the copyright can be verified as belonging to David Horsey, there can be no objection to Horsey being accredited. But at present, these unsubstatiated assertions do not meet Wikipedia's requirement for verifiability. Anonymous and unsubstantiated allegations, by their very nature, are little different from an anonymous letter, and also, by their very nature, are discourteous and offensive to other contributors, who MUST BE ASSUMED TO BE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH. That this anonymous accusation has been circulated on the internet is not an excuse. The same high standards in public life are required here, as everywhere else. Also see:
The Simpsons, in its prime (the first 9 seasons), was a brilliant, sophisticated satire of American culture and greater philosophical ideas, e.g, "Scenes From a Class Struggle in Springfield". I have repeatedly attempted to include it under the list of "Notable Satire and Satirists in Modern Popular Culture", but it keeps getting removed. It is maddening that one of the greatest satires of the 20th century, one that will go down in history next to Voltaire or Hogarth, is being excluded. The Simpsons was a profound, subversive show that was the gold standard in equal opportunity skewering. I doubt anybody commenting in this forum has gone a year without using a Simpson's reference, a tribute to its permeation and influence on our culural fabric. The Simpsons will stand as one of the greatest literary and artistic acheivements of the 20th century. I plead with you, include this heroic show in your list of modern satire! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.9.119 (talk)
both sides give good arguments, but when it comes down to the basics people think of The Simpsons as a satire. Regardless of what episode is about. I think it should stay. -142.46.140.214 03:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please - whoever is doing this stop it! The "classic examples" are meant as clarification of the definition - not as part of the "history". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.79.120 (talk)
It may be argued that Chaucers Canterbury Tales was in fact a fabulous piece of satire. I noticed that the page says that there were "hardly any examples" during the middle ages, but I just thought I would put this idea out there for further thought. Thanks!
PS: Sorry for thinking you were trying reverting. This seems just fine. Still, the question above remains--FlammingoParliament 12:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
With the adding of an overwhelming Persian paragraph that did have a lot of praize for its authors (also adding wrong chronological order), the question is what this article wants. It's in English, so the biggest part of the readers will be reading English satire. My suggestion would be outsourcing to a List of satirists and satires - which will be endless, like a true encyclopaedia ;-) Also, the satire came from the Romans, and any addition that says otherwise will be removed unless there is a thorough discussion here first (based on widely available mainstream academic literature). The current sources are given, Cuddon Dictionary, and my knowledge which is backed also by Brockhaus and the Britannica 2004 (no quotations from those!).
--FlammingoParliament 11:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
satire. Of course any known satire might be claimed to have made a difference on something, but that would have to be non-pop culture (belongs to section below) and, if necessary, a different encyclopaedia or critical source to say that one is chiefly known to be satirist. Also: all should be quoted with their literarily known satire (to see why they are listed, eg. no shows, which are pop).--FlammingoParliament 09:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could Jon Stewart be considered a notable satirist? He was pretty much Colbert's forerunner and is the main anchor of The Daily Show, which is in Colbert's credits.
I think that there is too much american satire compared to British satire. Theirs about a paragraph on the UK and half a page on the US, most of which consists of Colbert and his funny but not exactly ground braking satire. 82.43.56.84 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC).[reply]
I propose removing the sections "Chronological list of notable satirists" and "Additional notable satires in modern popular culture" because
1. They are a magnet for drive by additions and the lists, especially the first, are already unwieldy (and would be many times the size if they had not been arbitrarily pruned).
2. They encourage editing in the form of lists rather than the addition of proper encyclopedic material.
3. It is virtually impossible to find a good definition of "notable" in this case which both keeps the size of the list manageable andisverifiable.
Comments, please. Notinasnaid 10:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Online Webster says: 1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn 2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly
For the point of clarity, "Trenchent" could be substituted with it's near synomyms "smart and articulate". (Less smart or less articulate pieces could fall under attempted satire, but not satire.)
The current definition on the Wikipedia page is a fair discription, but it could be more precise as Satire has exact definitions in both art and law. I DO like including the derivitives of the word, as the derivitives convey the positive playfulness underlieing even serious political Satire. I would say that "positive social change" is more characteristic than "criticism".
The current Satire article states:
Satire (lat. medley, dish of colourful fruits) is a technique used in drama and the performing arts, fiction, journalism, and occasionally in poetry and the graphic arts.
>That's a complete sentence, but not a complete definition, which it could be. It continues...
Although satire is usually witty, and often very funny, the primary purpose of satire is not primarily humour but criticism of an event, an individual or a group in a witty manner.
> Criticism has both positive and negative connotations, while Satire always has SOME positive underlieing moral message.
I agree that the previous write-up was excellent. Since the definition of "Satire" in the legal realm has been hashed over repetitively, the definition deserves more research.
If I did something wrong in how I posted this, please help. My email is mindinspace@hotmail.com. I'm new to posting. Barryleelandis 19:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know satire is not a technique, it is a genre that use the techniques of irony/rhetoric/comic.--BMF81 14:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I love satire. Ideally, someone should satirise the contributors to this page too, but it seems no one could be bothered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.51.14.176 (talk) 11:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Under the "Ancient Rome" heading is this confusing bit: "Unlike an 16th century confusion states, the term satire ..."
I have no idea what that sentence means, because I have no idea what that quoted bit means.
Does anyone get the drift well enough to make it sensible for a simpleton like me? :)
timbo 21:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I've added a reference to the 1599 ban and corrected spelling of Abbott to Abbot (it was linking to the wrong person). Hope that's o.k. You say all verse satire was banned. As far as I can tell it wasn't restricted to verse, but to all satires and epigrams. Also I've changed history plays to histories and plays, since the pivotal history that started the whole thing was a prose one. The 1599 decree says: "That noe Englishe historyes be printed" and then "That noe playes be printed" - except by special permission.--Tanyushka 05:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is The Family Guy really a good example of satire? The crux of the show's humor lies in pop-culture parody, not social satire. Considering the examples of great satire that aren't mentioned in this article, doesn't the inclusion of The Family Guy just blur the lines between satire and parody and make the article less concise as a result?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.128.192.3 (talk) 20 June 2007
The Britannica definition really needs to go; it is woefully inadequate for a term as complex as satire. It doesn't do justice to the etymology of the term (I put a link to a scholarly article which clarified it, but someone took it down for no apparent reason). The relationship between satura and satyr needs to be developed more fully, because it is hardly as neat as the antiquated Britannica definition portrays it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eros888 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 2 July 2007
My changed today come from the "excellent" German article "satire", Magic-Point.net: Satire and terms parody andcaricature themselves. To clarify the Simpsons etc debate, including Colbert, I added the sentence about a common mix-up and improper generalization of the term, and wikipedia might just explain that phenomenon. They are "often called" satires, but "satirizing" doesn't make something a satire, but often is then a caricature or parody, depending on the manner or, as in parody, form. If this is unclear, please point out the specific sentence so we can work on it. Also, satyr is now linked to in the first line, to satisfy those who did not know its spelling when they looked for it.--FlammingoHey 10:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Flamingo - read the article from the top, please. Parody (for example) is (or is not) "satire" depending on whether it is an attack on something the writer wished to see "amended". Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is obviously a great satirist, and one we were previous lacking. Some of the G&S operettas are however much more directly satirical than others. And none of the operettas is really unrelentingly satirical (they would perhaps have been less popular than they are if they had been). Any examples of Gilbertian wit added here really need to relate to the point pretty directly - hence although it was NOT I who deleted the funny illustration from the Mikado I can see why it got cut, to be honest. It's VERY witty, in Gilbert's best style, but, especially in isolation, NOT a good example of satire as such. Soundofmusicals (talk) 06:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This site is neither notable nor famous, it has been removed and re-added twice. Someone has tacked it on to increase traffic to a mediocre website. A better example of an online satire website would be www.theonion.com
I have added The Onion to this article Silent.reprobate (talk) 20:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Satire or Satire in the English language? Alright, there are a few others mentioned, but too much of it is a list of minor English speaking figures. South Park before Voltaire? 41.241.53.194 (talk) 19:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the first sentence, which was:
"Satire is strictly a literary genre, but it is also found in the graphic and performing arts."
I see two problems with that. First, as 168.7.218.79 noted (albeit in the wrong place), it doesn't make sense—it's contradictory. I take strictly to mean only, solelyorexclusively, as in "Our relationship is strictly business, nothing else". So if satire is strictly literary, it can't be anything else. Perhaps the writer meant "Satire is, strictly speaking, a literary genre..."
But second, the old version doesn't give the definition of satire till the second sentence of the article; the first sentence is about a secondary issue: where satire occurs. I think the essential definition should be contained in the first sentence.
I used "artistic form" instead of "literary genre" because that's what appears in the Britannica article that's referenced. If someone wants to change back to "genre", be my guest. But please don't simply revert my change back to the previous illogical sentence, and please put the definition in the first sentence. --Davemck (talk) 15:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As I am sure you know, soundofmusicals, I am very grateful for your watching this article which saves me much trouble, i hardly have to come to this one any more. Still, it is common in wikipedia to choose either American or British English and keep it. The article was BE for years, and only in one paragraph there were now four AE spelling. That's why i reverted. No harm intended. It is not custom to "reform" an article and change ALL spellings from one to the other, that's why the category is still Category:Humor, but its main article is humour. That's what the community agreed on many years ago.--FlammingoHey 17:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we are including a link to "satyr" at the beginning of the article, shouldn't we include a link to the Satires of Juvenal, as well? I typed in "satires" in hopes of finding Juvenal's collection, but it ended up here. Since the Satires of Juvenal is actually spelled in references to this type of writing (unlike "satyr") shouldn't we add it at the beginning of the article? And curiously, where would I look if I wanted to add this in myself (call me a slacker, but I've never quite gotten to looking through the guides myself)? Copying and pasting won't get me everywhere. --MwNNrules (talk) 02:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have trimmed this a bit - some tales in the collection are indeed variants of each other - as a fairly random collection of tales "from all over" with little overall editing and conordination this is exactly what you'd expect. And even if some variants do consciously parody other tales (highly doubtful anyway) then this parody is NOT necessarilly satire. Read the section where we discuss this - satire often uses parody - but IN ITSELF is something quite distinct!!--Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:58, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image File:Ghjkl.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --19:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One of the better WP articles I've read. Great job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.114.80.183 (talk) 14:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The introductory paragraph to this has been under attack lately. I placed the following explanation and "plea for retention" on the editor's userpage.
The introductory paragraph to this section has a simple meaning which you seem to have totally missed.
1. Satire is essentially indirect, and often ironic (see introduction to article as a whole - which HAS references - these do not need to be repeated here).
2. This makes it obscure, so that it usually escapes censorship. (If the cap fits wear it, in other words). This is also treated (and referenced) elsewhere in the article.
3. On the other hand satirists are by no means immune to attack and censorship. (Numerous specific examples given in rest of section).
It is simplistic (and very far from universally true) to state that satire is "against power". Almost anything can be the subject of satire. Nor are the powerful the only people who attack satire (although the attacks of the powerful are obviously much more dangerous).
Nobody is claiming (at least in this paragraph) that satirists censor themselves to avoid criticism (although of course they sometimes have to!) - at least that is not the meaning conveyed here. What we are saying is that satire is essentially veiled - that is what distinguishes satire from plain abuse!! Again - read the introduction to the article, and try to come to grips with what it actually means, if you can.
--Soundofmusicals (talk) 13:04, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
its from 1867 and is illegible at the size uploaded to wikipedia commons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.181.108 (talk) 10:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Someone who's interested might want to look into the role of the satirist in the literary culture of early medieval Ireland, where satire (probably as a traditional Indo-European form of curse poetry) was regarded as extremely potent. It would be a good link from antiquity. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look, this may very well be open to improvement. It's been tweaked/attacked/refined by several editors over the life of the article, and it would be surprising if it were perfect! On the other hand, I really can't see how discussing what it DOES before we have covered what it IS could ever make it "clearer".
An improved definition would need to have these elements - and I think for clarity's sake if nothing else they should be more or less in this order.
Since this is primarily a literary article, it is even more essential that it be in correct English, and that the prose be clear and reasonably well written. I honestly don't think it's THAT bad at the moment!?
--Soundofmusicals (talk) 09:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even in 1911, definining sarire as as a "kind" of composition was an obsolete use. "Satire (n.) - An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are 'endowed by their Creator' with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a sour-spirited knave, and his every victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent." [Ambrose Bierce, "Devil's Dictionary," 1911]
Random house: "1.the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc. 2.a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule. 3.a literary genre comprising such compositions. "
American heritage: "1. a.A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.
b.The branch of literature constituting such works. See Synonyms at caricature.
2.Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity"
Websters" 1) a poem or work holding up human vices, follies etc. to ridicule or scorn. 2)Trenchant wit, irony or sarcasm, used for the purpose of exposing and discrediting vice or folly."
The current lead sentence talking only about the form is grossly inadequate and inappropriate. MM 207.69.137.38 (talk) 03:47, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It apparently needs to be said again - but satire and parody, while not the same thing (or even the same KIND of thing) very often occur together. To say - "this is parody, therefore it can't be satire" is like saying "this is a fish, therefore it can't live in the sea". In fact, much, if not most, parody does have satirical intent, and parody (along with irony) is one of the principal methods of satire. READ THE LEAD. The question is - does a particular parody have satiric intent, or is it purely humorous? In rather simplistic terms, satire is meant to make you laugh, and then think. If "Unencyclopedia" is in fact an attack on the "free-editing" feature of Wikipedia (and this is arguable) then it is satire - aimed perhaps at getting us to re-think the way Wikipedia works and thus getting a more reliable free encyclopedia. Not that I personally agree that this is the case, or that Wikipedia needs changing anyway, but this has no bearing on the case. If on the other hand it is a pure joke, and no attack on Wikipedia or its methods is intended... I'd say this is contentious enough for a "see also" anyway. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Someone seems to feel that these people really are sadistic monsters of the very deepest dye who really do hate terminally ill children enough to base a sketch on what greedy little losers they really are! NO ONE - especially very lefty, liberal satirists think like that - they're being satiric, right? I'm sure the "Chasers" said something like "Hey! this is satire" but sadly no one in authority knew what they were talking about. Read this article carefully and then YOU will, which will put you one up on such ignorami (and, incidentally, stop spoiling the article). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Australian satirical television comedy show The Chaser's War on Everything has suffered repeated attacks based on various perceived interpretations of the "target" of its attacks. To take one notorious example, the "Make a Realistic Wish Foundation" sketch (June 2009) was widely interpreted as an attack on the Make a Wish Foundation, or even the terminally ill children helped by that organisation. Prime Minister of the time Kevin Rudd stated that The Chaser team "should hang their heads in shame". He went on to say that "I didn't see that but it's been described to me....But having a go at kids with a terminal illness is really beyond the pale, absolutely beyond the pale." Television station management suspended the show for two weeks and reduced the third season to eight episodes. On the other hand the sketch very closely followed the logic of A Modest Proposal - and could equally well be taken as attacking the point of view directly expressed (in classic satirical fashion), and thus being directed at mean-spirited people who regard charities such as the foundation as a waste of money.
The paragraph on Fo, while very interesting, had the air of a fairly literal translation from the Italian - (rendering it unclear, and what is worse, subject to copyright infringement) I have tried to recast the paragraph so that Fo's ideas are expressed in clear idiomatic English. Comments of any Italian speakers who feel I have distorted what Fo is trying to say are obviously very welcome! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:18, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately this addition, which may well have some value, is expressed in such very poor English that it is not even clear what is meant. Also please note that we generally only put in a link to the first use of a term - not every time it occurs. I am also bewildered as to what connection it has with the section heading - does it need its own section, or is there somewhere else you could put it. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 11:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
very good example of satire, yet very distasteful Sidelight12 (talk) 03:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that "Prophetic Satire" would be a more accurate title for satire that turns out to precede actual events than "Satirical Prophecy," which would seem to mean prophecies that have satirical elements. Thoughts? Memetics (talk) 15:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to have been a tendency for some editors to pile in all kinds of tag on passages they either do not understand, or do understand but disapprove or disagree with. Paragraphs with basically a single thought, that have a cite that clearly refers to the whole paragraph, do not need a "citation" tag after every sentence - matter that clearly states a well cited fact in different words (a common thing in an article like this, where we make a point several times in different words to ensure understanding of what is, after all, a difficult subject) do not need a "citation" every time. Perhaps the odd sentence might need to be deleted as repetitive - but this is an entirely different matter! I feel this article has been attacked at times by people who disapprove of satire itself - feeling perhaps that it is a kind of humour we would be better off without. Or perhaps they are iritated that the dictionary/academic definition of satire is so different from the much looser idea they are used to. This is all very well - and one is always welcome to make constructive changes, and to raise questions on this talk page. The constant insertion of ever denser requests for citations is however not the way. Hope the people concerned can come to understand this, and either desist, or (even better) change their tack, and respond to their problems with the article in a more constructive way. The object should be to make the article better, not to push a personal wheelbarrow. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 10:50, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Satire is traditionally a subtle form. I don't think that the definition is correct - "held up to ridicule" implies something more vicious. Of course modern satire is often vicious, but that is not what it used to be.125.237.105.102 (talk) 03:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A recent well-intentioned edit cut this from our "definition" sentence:
with the edit commentary comment:
An encyclopedia should indeed be objective. It is however perfectly objective to report that satirical writing is general the very opposite of encyclopedic writing, in that satirists are almost always writing from a very strong personal point of view, and (especially in its more caustic forms) the satirist hopes to modify his readers' opinions and behaviours for the better. From his point of view, naturally - but then we are not making judgements about this sort of thing, are we? In fact satire can be conservative and even "right wing", although in practice (NOT in an article, of course) we might remark that this is less common than the other way about. -Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:25, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My problem is with the phrase "ideally with the intent". These is nowhere it says this is the belief of many etc. I suggest the possible replacement of "ideally" with "often", as that makes no statement on which is preferable. HalfHat 17:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just a short paragraph. HalfHat 16:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think that sociologists take satire seriously even though they don't always initially mention humor as part of a society's culture, but sometimes satire gets things wrong.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnigornia (talk • contribs) 21:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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As Swift is held up as an example of a satirical writer who could use both the Horatian and Juvenalian approaches, should he be listed as a Horatian too? Which work would best exemplify this? Gulliver and Laputa? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:52, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Satire is a type of humor. It can manifest as a literary genre, among other things, but at root it's humor. -- GreenC 19:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I believe there is some overlap between trolling and satire. Sometimes satirists create art or literature knowing that it will cause upset among a particular community that will come into contact with it. Wouldn't that also make it similar to trolling? Trolling requires intent of sowing discord. I think the article could be updated to show the similarities between the two. Trolling could be seen as a more degenerate view of satire. Xanikk999 (talk)
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Reynard the Fox is only mentioned in the early modern section, even though it was conceived and already widely popular in the high middle ages. I added a paragraph to the middle ages part talking about the work, but I am only familiar with the work in a dutch context. If other people could add something to it in the context of other cultures in europe that would be outstanding. 艾伯特芬奇 (talk) 20:39, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]