Contents

Talk:Somali Civil War

WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Somali Civil War, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. Remedy instructions and exemptions Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned. With respect to any reverting restrictions: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism. Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes), which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 4, 2007.

Dilla Massacre was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 29 March 2020 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Somali Civil War. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

This  level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Crime and Criminal Biography Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Ethiopia Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethiopia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ethiopia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EthiopiaWikipedia:WikiProject EthiopiaTemplate:WikiProject EthiopiaEthiopia articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. International relations: United Nations Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject United Nations. Islam: Islam and Controversy / Salaf / Sunni Islam This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Islam and Controversy task force. This article is supported by the Salaf task force. This article is supported by the Sunni Islam task force. Limited recognition Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Limited recognition, a WikiProject dedicated to improving the coverage of entities with limited recognition on Wikipedia by contributing to articles relating to unrecognized states and separatist movements. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join our WikiProject by signing your name at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.Limited recognitionWikipedia:WikiProject Limited recognitionTemplate:WikiProject Limited recognitionLimited recognition articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: African / British / European / Italian / North America / United States / Cold War / Post-Cold War Start‑class This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale. This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  African military history task force British military history task force European military history task force Italian military history task force (c. 500–present) North American military history task force United States military history task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989) Post-Cold War task force Somalia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Somalia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Somalia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SomaliaWikipedia:WikiProject SomaliaTemplate:WikiProject SomaliaWikiProject Somalia articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Somaliland Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Somaliland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Somaliland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SomalilandWikipedia:WikiProject SomalilandTemplate:WikiProject SomalilandWikiProject Somaliland articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Terrorism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Is there any evidence of the United States funding or supporting the USC? I bring this up because I really think we should look into this, especially considering the Cold War was technically still going on, and the US had a staunch anti-communist and anti-soviet policy until the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.4.228.5 (talk) 00:39, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Somalia was at war with pro-soviet Ethiopia, so probably no. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 05:46, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As it is right now, the start date in the infobox looks extremely confusing, and it cannot stand. Seriously, "Disputed-present", what the hell does that even mean? The asterisk note doesn't really change how jarring the start date is. I propose that some number or year be placed but the disputed asterisk remain. It can be 1991, or 1986, or 1988, or the 1980s, or whichever has the most sources supporting it. Just so that the absurd dating is removed. Perhaps something like: 1991(Disputed) - present.* 2601:85:C102:1220:640F:35E1:C872:594A (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what's absurd about noting that the start date is disputed. There's no clear consensus amongst sources about what the start date is, so it's difficult to know which one we'd pick if we were to highlight one. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:48, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Same poster, different IP. It's jarring and reads weird: "Start date disputed-present." When is disputed? I never said I was against noting that it was disputed, actually I want it to be noted. Hence, the above example I gave, 1991(Disputed) - present*. So we are in agreement that the start date needs to be shown that it is disputed. But some year needs to be put, and there are precedents on Wikipedia. See Second Sino-Japanese WarorVietnam War, where there are different ways to show multiple dates (in the former, it is beneath the main date, in the latter an explanation is given in a note). As to choosing which year to put for this particular article, it would make sense to pick the date which has the most RS supporting it. And that would be 1991. In addition, in the explanation given by the note in the infobox, 1991 is given by the majority sources present, so it would make sense to put 1991 as the main starting date. In the note, James Fearon gives various starting dates but ultimately rests on 1991. Of course, there is still a dispute, but the note takes care of that. So "1991-present[note]" would seem like the most reasonable course of action.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this. Didn't mean to sound combative in my original post. 2601:85:C102:1220:D4AD:2550:813D:533D (talk) 01:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your further thoughts. My concern was that you seemed to be suggesting picking a date for the sake of having one, and I wasn't sure how we'd assess what the majority of sources state given the large number of sources out there. However, reminding myself of some of them, I see that there does seem to be somewhat of a consensus on 1991 (with notable exceptions), rather than there being complete disagreement. I'm still a little reluctant though, and would prefer wider input (pinging Charles Essie and Buckshot06 as obvious candidates, from the discussion above). On Fearon, while he does settle on 1991, he states that that's for analytical purposes and I wouldn't want to read too much into such a decision. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There was a good compromise maintained for a long period, that acknowledged 1991 was incorrect, except as the end of the first phase, Barre's downfall, with a long footnote. Suggest we go back to that. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's what we have at present, isn't it? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we had some dates in there for a while, something like c1981-1991 (disputed) - present. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:03, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the answer is very simple. The Somali Rebellion was the first phase of the war and that began on 10 March 1978. That's the start date. Charles Essie (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Same poster, different IP. Thanks for the replies guys. While I think 1991 is supported by most of the sources given (especially considering the Central Bank of Somalia and the UN, which should take precedence in my humble opinion), I would also support what Buckshot06 gave above: "c1981-1991 (disputed) - present." What matters is that at least a year or range of years, with a disputed note, is put for the start date, just to avoid the awkward wording of "Start date disputed-present." I believe you guys have more knowledge on this particular subject, so I'll defer to you as to which specific year or range of years to choose. Cheers. 2601:85:C102:1220:9DF3:1D7:2E92:65F (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We could split hairs here for months on when the Somali rebellion became a civil war, but I'm more than happy to go with "1978-1991 (disputed) - present" if there is a clear and authoritative reference for 10 March 1978. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I couldn't find any source with 1978 as the start date for the Civil War. I still think "1991 (disputed) - present" would have the most support from the sources. But I'm just an IP, and you guys probably have more knowledge of this subject than I, so I defer to you. 2601:85:C102:1220:2002:F3C3:A078:B0F4 (talk) 03:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can I make a change yet or no? 2601:85:C102:1220:A054:120E:7921:9C4E (talk) 18:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it shouldn't have a start date at all and just say disputed. Charles Essie (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Same OP. Aye, but then what information would the reader be getting from the nebulous start date of "disputed?" It would be akin to just putting "Start date - end date*[footnote]." But the matter is resolved now, no worries. 2601:85:C100:46C0:C51A:2566:AF10:9013 (talk) 04:23, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The result of the move request was: page not moved Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 12:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Somali Civil War → Somali civil war – Doesn't need capitalization per WP:NCCPT - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 12:23, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it a proper noun? We appear to use capitals for other wars, such as World War II (which I don't think I've ever seen rendered in lower case, anywhere), Cambodian Civil War, Bosnian War, etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Syrian civil war, Myanmar civil war (2021–present), Afghanistan conflict, Iraqi conflict (2003–present), Mexican drug war for some recent examples that the "war" isn't capitalized. - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 13:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I think perhaps the "conflict" ones are different, since conflict is less specific than war, but the others show that we have some inconsistency between articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How do we ensure WP:CONSISTENT? - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 13:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Like all wars with a recognised name, the title is a proper noun, not a description, so NCCPT doesn't apply. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per HJ Mitchell; the title is a proper noun, so is explicitly exempt from WP:NCCPT. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 13:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Read Proper noun. "civil war" can't be a proper noun. - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 13:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course it can, that's a ludicrous statement. A proper noun is something's name. The general term "civil war" is not a proper noun, just as "war" isn't, but when it becomes part of a name it is a proper noun. English Civil War, Sierra Leone Civil War, American Civil War, Irish Civil War are just a few examples. Those are all the recognised proper names of conflicts, just as this is. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:54, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Oppose moving per this rationale (and thus TITLECON) BhamBoi (talk) 23:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Per above Thehistorianisaac (talk) 13:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've been working on a draft for the period of the Somali Civil War between Barre's fall and the withdrawal of UNOSOM. I may change the scope to just between Barre's fall and the beginning of UNITAF, or expand it from Barre's fall to the creation of the TFG, idk. If anyone could help with this, though, that'd be appreciated. Posting this to WP:SOMALIA's talkpage to gather more participation - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 17:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If that is so, why are there literally no news reports covering this development? Or in that case why the timeline doesn't mention that it has been recaptured? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller (talk • contribs) 07:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are egregious claims that Al-Shabaab is still in places like Diinsoor which they were expelled by Amisom 9 years ago and current disputes are handled by the South-West State of Somalia, so the area connecting Diinsoor and Baidoa should be marked red.

The road between between Baidoa and Mogadishu, notabally including towns like Buur Hakaba, should be marked as red, albeit with Al-Shabaab presence in rural areas

Along the Somali-Kenyan border, the area arounf Geriley should be marked as under government allied control, and since the entire border region is under vague control it should be striped.

Beyond that, the Northern areas of Somalia. Namely Khatumo state should only be marked as controlling Talex, Laascaanood, and Buudhoodle. With the Northern and Western parts of the claimed territory under Puntland and Somaliland control respectivily. Emx0264 (talk) 08:03, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion on the the several maps added in the previous days and their sources was started on Wikimedia Commons Wowzers122 (talk) 21:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]