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@Chicbyaccident: As both MezzoMezzo have pointed out, this gloss of ahl al-sunnah is given by multiple RSs, major academic encyclopedias, which are quoted in the refs. In this context they leave the word sunnah untranslated as a technical term. What other meanings it may have in other contexts is not an appropriate basis for attempting to overrule these sources; it's a violation of WP:ORorWP:NPOV. Eperoton (talk)
Hi, there seems to be a mistake regarding the succession to Abu Bakr in the following line:
"According to Sunni traditions, Muhammad designated Abu Bakr as his successor (the first caliph)"
This is not true. According to sunni tradition, Muhammed left NO successor so the companions after his death voted via Shura to elect Abu Bakr as the first caliph
Can we please add Peace be upon him , after Hazrat Mohammad s.a.w.w
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– More appropriate title; see Protestantism and Sufism for consistency. Also names of other religious sects do not use the name of the main religion in the title, unless the name of the sect is ambiguous on its own. Reinstating modified earlier request. Mast303 (talk) 02:54, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose - per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY the divide between Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy is much more notable such that the vast majority of people would instantly recognize Protestantism as being a subset of Christianity. Can the same be said for Sunni, or Shia? Taking Protestantism as an example, that term is significantly more common than Protestant Christianity as demonstrated by this ngram 1. The same cannot be seen for Sunni Islam 2 or Shia Islam 3, where the longer form is more common. Estar8806 (talk) 03:47, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – As I specifically mentioned in the previous RM, we need evidence of usage in reliable sources showing that the proposed targets are in fact the most wp:common names for the subject. There are four other wp:criteria for article names apart from consistency, and among those recognizability and naturalness are strongly determined by how commonly a name is used. Against that the consistency concerns of the OP are weak, which has already pointed out in the previous RM (Chalcedonian Christianity uses the name of the main religion in the title, and Sufism is not a separate denomination at the same level as Sunni and Shi'i Islam), to which I might add that in any case there are enough examples where the common names of Islamic currencies are not -ism words: Hanafi school, Ibadi Islam (which might well need a move to Ibadism though), Murji'ah, Ahl al-Ra'y, Ahl al-Hadith, Ahl al-Kalam, etc. What is important here is common usage in sources, not some form of unattainable and undesirable consistency in having everything called Fooism. ☿ Apaugasma (talk☉)04:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many sources do use Sunnism and Shiism (or Shi'ism); see for example 1, 2 and 3. The 3rd one is a credible educational institution. I might add more. Mast303 (talk) 05:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need a source to show that it is sometimes used. We already know that. What we need is for someone to prepare a representative and neutrally selected sample of the very best sources on the subject (let's say, the best sources on Islam), and inquire which term is most common in them. I'd say we need to look at 15 sources at the very least to get a vague idea, though 30 or 50 would be coming closer to being somewhat representative.
Counting together all versions that have 'fooism' vs those that have 'foo Islam', GS yields 33,930 hits for 'fooism' (24,400 on the Shi'i side and 9,530 on the Sunni side) and 55,102 hits for 'foo Islam' (21,502 on the Shi'i side and 33,600 on the Sunni side). So if we want to streamline the two articles and adopt something consistent, GS clearly suggest Shia Islam and Sunni Islam (precisely how the situation is now, though Shi'a Islam and others are a close call). If we would adopt the most common name for each article individually, per GS it should be Shi'ism and Sunni Islam (overwhelmingly in both cases). ☿ Apaugasma (talk☉)06:02, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Mainly based on recognizability and naturalness. -ism words are terrible things and best to be avoided except where unavoidable, and here they are readily avoided already in a manner that concisely provides infinitely more clarity to those not already familiar with the terms "Sunni" or "Shia" (or Sunnism/Shi'ism) - they will know from "Islam" (which adds little length) that it is a type/form of Islam. Also, as noted already by others, "Sufism" is not a true parallel, as this is a non-denominational mystic tradition with Islam that does not discriminate by branch. There is also Ibadi Islam to consider, as also noted above, and which the current two terms are also currently consistent with. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and the careful consideration provided by the editor Iskandar323. Comparisons with the term "Sufism" don't make sense here, since Sufism conveys the mystical and ascetic dimension of the Islamic religion as a whole and broadly speaking of the entire Muslim world (see also the redirects Islamic mysticism and Mysticism in Islam), not just a few historical denominations or branches of Islam.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sunni creed is not Islam, but rather "Muslim people".
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"though some scholars view this translation as inappropriate, and many Sunnis may find this offensive."
This is an opinion, especially on the part "many Sunnis may find this offensive" because to assert so is to source actual statistics on number of Sunnis who disagree with this translation at least. Ibrahim Kedah (talk) 07:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is supposed to say 'Shia' here, not 'Sunnis':
"though some scholars view this as inappropriate, and many Sunnis may find this offensive.[11]"
It does not makes sense for sunnis to believe their own beliefs are not orthodox, just like for any other sect in Islam. Surely it means Shias find this offensive? Even the reference points to this 86.5.202.27 (talk) 23:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings,
thanks for pointing this out. The source speaks about non-Sunnis and there was probably a form of typo from the author. The issue has been fixed now.
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The redirect Orthodox Islam has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 9 § Orthodox Islam until a consensus is reached. —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 07:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
