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Does anyone know where I can get the movie Tuskegg Airmen? 24.215.122.139 (Talk) at 17:23, 10 February 2005
My library is in a shambles, but it would be nice to add the names of some of the other prominent members of the group, there were several well-known and decorated officers......--Pmeisel 19:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
One of the more popular books has a list of those who served with the fighter squadrons. In Black Knights, The Story of the Tuskegee Airmen, authors Lynn M. Homan and Thomas Reilly have a list of airmen as an appendix. Their appendix table gives name, rank, class number, date of graduation, serial number, city (nearest big city, it seems) and state. Hope this helps. 212Mike 17:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
An article entitled Tuskegee Airmen appeared at britannica.com as a Britannica highlight on 30 May 2005. See [1]. Courtland 16:59, 2005 May 30 (UTC)
I am not a wiki admin, just a writer, but ever since this page entered my watchlist, i have seen regular instances of racialist (anti-African American) vandalism. I reverted one such attack today, after several hours during which i reported it, hoped a bot or an admin would fix it, and saw it was still online in candalized form. Is there is some standard delimiting the number of racialist attacks per month/year/whatever that must be endured before admins give thought to the semi-protction of a page? I counted 10 revesions due to racialist vandalism on this page since January 1, 2006. Catherineyronwode 23:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The previous entry contained some factual errors. The Tuskegee Airmen may have flown P-39s in the US, but I can find no indication that they flew Airacobras overseas. Dr. Frank Olynyk's Mediterranean Theater victory list for USAAF units shows only P-40s, 47s (April-May '44), and 51s.
The figure of 400 German aircraft destroyed is not supported by any source I have found. The four squadrons' cumulative total of aerial victories is 113. Claims for grounded German planes are unknown.
The episode in which a German destroyer was reported sunk by gunfire was apparently an Italian patrol boat run aground. I cannot find the source right now, but it was in a naval journal. I'll see if I can relocate. At any rate, no such German destroyer appears in any compilation of Kriegsmarine losses in Italy, and it has never been identified. The ship's name or number would be welcome information. Meanwhile, the episode seems a simple case of misidentification--common in combat.
Here's an Axis history chronology for June 44, month of the event, with no mention:
http://www.feldgrau.com/june.html
I believe that the TV movie stated that the 332nd shot down "3 of the 8 German jets destroyed by the allies," and the claim has been accepted at face value. In fact, total USAAF fighter claims alone ran about 160, plus bomber gunners and the RAF jet claims. See Wm. Hess, "German Jets Vs. the Army Air Force" (1996).
Problem Solved
Turns out that the "destroyer" was a WW I Italian torpedo boat redesignated TA-22 by the Germans. There were in fact no German destroyers in the Mediterranean--no mission for them.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/captured/torpedoboats/ta/ta22/index.html
That statement requires elaboration. As written, it is false. Hispanics were fairly common in military aviation (the first US airman killed at Pearl Harbor was Ensign Manuel Gonzales) and there were some Indians (Lt. Hiawatha Mohawk flew P-51s.) --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.134.240 (talk • contribs)
Clarence Tinker, Osage, was a Major General in the Army Air Force. His B-24 bomber disappeared during a raid on Wake Island from Midway Island on the night of June 6, 1942. Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma is named in his honor. Matt Reed, Curator of American Indian Collections, Oklahoma Historical Society —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.87.106.131 (talk) 15:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not going to edit this page or criticize it given the factual controversy which seems irrelevant to me re the TA reputation, but it deserves careful editing and then locking to prevent racist attacks. The central fact of the Tuskegee Airmenis the wonder that not only did they exist, but they won well-deserved honors against great odds. Historical accuracy is a sometimes elusive, especially when there's a movie around "based on a true story." The TA Airmen experience is not immune from the fog of war. You don't have to be perfect to be good or great.
"Never lost a bomber" is almost certainly wrong. A historian for the "Tuskegee Airmen Inc." - William F. Holton -- does not believe that claim is true. There is a story (with an unfortunate numb headline) at the Washington Post for December 11, 2006 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121100657.html) in which he says Air Force records indicate at least a few bombers were shot down while under escort by the TA. His research meshes with that of Daniel Haulman of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, Al.
This is from that story. "The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis, said he will no longer claim in speeches that the group never lost a bomber under its escort." Also "One mission report says that on July 26, 1944: "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open." A second report, dated Aug. 31, 1944, praises group commander Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr. by saying he "so skillfully disposed his squadrons that in spite of the large number of enemy fighters, the bomber formation suffered only a few losses." A third report says that on Sept. 12, 1944: "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open."
The article concludes: " The only way to determine the group's true record is to scour the post-mission reports of bomber groups that were escorted by the Airmen's P-51 fighters. Alan Gropman, who teaches at the National Defense University in Washington, told the Advertiser that more research is needed, but added: "Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be minuscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers."
That last comment is odd, because if there is a message from the Tuskegee Airmen story it is that the color of someone's skin does not indicate the quality of the man or woman. Followup stories from the AP http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600849.html in Mongomery cite interview with bomber pilot Warren Ludlum of NJ as confirming his b-24 was shot down while under Red Tail Escort.But Ludlum also says he " liked being escorted by them because of their aggressiveness. He said he knew he was being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen on the day he was shot down because one of them, Starling B. Penn, was shot down at the same time and ended up in the same German prison camp as Ludlum."
Whatever their individual attitudes, it makes no sense to compare pilots based on race -- except that the pervasive racism have resulted in the TA being better trained and some of its pilots were more experienced than others -- of both races. The nature of the war varied by year, month, day and mission. There is a possible explanation of how the myth started. It is possible that there are several reasons for the myth. But the TA includes roughly a thousand pilots and more support. A fighter group would probably have operated 75 aircraft (can't be sure of the number without records) and the TA groups probably comprised 150 pilots not including rotations. Everyone doesn't know everything and mission stats would have been classified. Even the "good war" required heroes and sometimes a little polish were given to reality.
Bomber pilot Colin P. Kelly Jr, WWII's first American hero, did not win the Medal of Honor and he did not as reported sink the Battleship Haruna which was confused with the heavy cruiser Ashigara and which was not damaged by the attack of Kelly or four other B-17s. Both ships survived until near the end of the war. Although recommended for the Medal of Honor, Kelly won a Distinguished Service Cross. His flying allowed most of his crew to esacape a badly damaged plane. The embellishment of a sunken battleship could have been deliberate as a public moral booster or, just as likely an inaccurate report that was difficult to correct after the fact.
A fair amount of assumed belief and printed material of WWII has turned out to be wrong in detail. The only way to even approach some reality on the TA would for the historians to comb through the TA mission reports whch is harder than it might seem. And to be thoroughly accurate, there would need to be a day to day matchup of Allied information with that of the Axis. What they will find is people who performed well under fire and who must have had bad days and good. Being "ordianry" pilots under the circumstances was a great feat. A heart surgeon who never loses a patient is taking the hard cases. Is a pilot in a great airplane who holds off an opposiion pilot superior to one in a lesser plane who sometimes fails.
Movies usually get things wrong, i.e "Pearl Harbor" was filled with errors/mistakes as was "Memphis Belle. But Pearl Harbor happened and the Memphis Belle flew its missions. The TA were in the European theater early and stayed late. They didn't win the war. They were part of winning the war despite everything which what makes them important. By being where they were, they did much to start changing thingsl, sometimes one person at a time. An example is at http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0202/crew.html
The claims about jet aircraft are just careless mistakes. Some may have believed that to be the case, but allied pilots learned reasonably well to cope with the German jets (and the v1 Buzz bomb). Despite their speed advantage, there were tradeoffs that could be exploited. One writer . despite their speed and pilot advantage (good, experienced pilots, many aces, were assigned). Alllied pilots learned to ambush them on their landling glide paths, taking out 15 in one day according to one account. Ureliable engines killed some. Lack of fuel kept many aircraft on the ground in the late stages.
Was it a cruiser, a destroyer or a gunboat. The action report may say one thing and the reality be another. Misjudgments happen and can be easier than eathbound tpes thing. A lot of mistakes were made and till are. The real mistake is to hang the TA's reputation on some myth while the reality is extraordinary as it is.
Some truly represensible whie racists were heroic pilots during the same war.Their success or lack of success in other cases did not change who they were. Getting the TA right is not embellishing a classic struggle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.120.63.94 (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
There are so many unsourced claims for the Tuskegee Myth's presented here. This whole article is just a word for word copy of the not factual History Show on the TA. They got into the war late, 1942 was the time of major air combat losses for USA/UK not 1944-45 they did lose bombers, (losing planes is a sign of being in combat, FLAK, etc) This late in the war there were less trained pilots, less pilots period, and less AA/AAA. Less air combat/ surface to air attack by then period! They wer enever requested directly by Army Air Coprs pilots. they were not better then other aviators despite being cherry picked from Ivey League Colleges. The Germans did not have a nickname for them Like "Black birdmen". This article is histrocial garbage! My earlier critiques were deleted on the Talk Page by some person pretending to their duty. First my posts were changed to make them sound racist, then deleted. Go figure! Get some sources (maybe even some good ones?) or get out of here with this nonsense masqerading as history. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.101.77 (talk • contribs) 21:43, 13 March 2007.
Please stop. If you continue to delete or blank page contents or templates from Wikipedia, as you did to Talk:Tuskegee Airmen, you will be blocked from editing. . --Ezeu 20:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I see you have considerable interest in this article. If you continue along your present path, you'll simply find your IP address blocked. On the other hand, if you change tactics, research the subject a bit, and make some constructive, sourced (verifiable and reliable) recommendations for changes, you'll find most editors here willing to listen. Rklawton 20:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
1) I checked today, and all my comments were deleted, by who..you probably! So I said if that's the way you do it, then fine. BTW, I have been contributing here for over 5 years in a somewhat vain attempt to make these articles accurate and historically true. Often the problem is no sources or horrible ones, with rampant assertions running lose as in this article. I don't have just one ISP address BTW. Instead of being bull-headed work with me to make this article accurate, and not some sort "feel good"garbage that does not hold water!!!!1
2) -It is you people, who are writing and locking this subject who are tasked with the duty of finding good verifiable sources for your claims and unfounded written assertions, which are LOCKED INTO THE ARTICLE, not me, sir!!!!!!!!!!!
Please take a good taste, it's your own medicine! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.101.77 (talk • contribs)
"they were not better then other aviators despite being cherry picked from Ivey League Colleges" This claim is absolutely wrong. My grandfather was an airman, and he joined up after graduating from highschool in Harlem NY. I recently interviewed him about his time in Italy, and he explained that two of his five tentmates were teachers in the midwest, and another was a small-time boxer from New York. These men came from all walks of life, which can be easily seen in any book written on the group. (unsigned)
RACIST B*******S ARE NOT WELCOME IN THE WIKIPEDIA COMMUNITY! GET LOST AND STAY DOWN! IF YOU ARE RACIST YOU MAY AS WELL FIND YOURSELF FRAGGED, THIS IS A PAGE ABOUT THE PILOTS OF THE FIRST BLACK UNITS OF THE USAAF. NOT A RANTHOUSE FOR YOUR RACIAL TAUNTS! I AM BLACK, and A KEEN SUPPORTER OF THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN. DONT INSULT THEM, THEY DID MORE FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAN YOU EVER DID! KEEP YOU MOUTH SHUT AND APPRECIATE THEIR SACRIFICE YOU RACIST A*****e! YOU MADE A PERSONAL ATTACK ON THE BLACK PILOTS! YOU SHOULD HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME! Lawnmowers Rock! 15:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't see this in the main article, and I think it is important to pass along.
Tuskegee airmen included Afro-American pilots and crewmen who served in non-fighter roles as well as the much more well-known fighter-pilot role. My son discovered this by accident as he researched the Tuskegee airmen for a school project. He met with a retired Tuskegee Airmen at the local nursing home. Arriving with the plan of interviewing a retired fighter pilot, he prepared questions about fighter pilot experiences, and printed out some material about the fighter squadrons. Shortly after beginning the interview, he discovered that Mr. Charles G. Dunn had served as an artillery liason pilot, not a fighter pilot.
In researching further, he also found that some Tuskegee airmen had served as bomber crew as well. There's an interesting piece of history that isn't particularly well-known, and might be worthy of scholarly research. When Sean has completed the school piece and the interview, I'll submit them for possible inclusion. 212Mike 17:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I would caution against using African American in the article. I have few friends who are from Africa and are American, but they are white. In this case, we are emphasizing ethnicity other than white. I think it is important to point out that they are black, or instead say other than Caucasian. etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.174.20 (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
The new information about the bomber losses to enemy fighters needs to be clarified. The paragraph says "...at least a few bombers were lost to enemy fire.." That should be clarified to state "enemy fighters" or something to make it clear that the 25 value was due to fighters, and that there were others lost to ground fire (this has always been known). As the paragraph stands now, it sounds as if these 25 bombers were the first known losses. --71.55.37.221 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Skimming through the 27 Jan 2006 AFHRA report by Dr. Haulman[2], it looks like the estimate of 25 includes a mix of enemy fighter and flak losses. There is also the complicating factor that squadrons from other fighter groups were apparently escorting the same bomber groups as squadrons from the 332FG, so blame and credit are spread over more than one FG. All the refferences supporting the 25 lost seem to come from news articles. It might be more reliable to do a count of losses to flak and enemy fighters and reference the original AFHRA report. Also, I can't find any evidence of a fall 2006 reassessment. Everything seems actually to relate to the Jan 2006 report. Kennethk2 17:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I just came across a passage in the middle of the "Combat" section which I am tagging as "dubious".
Perhaps, but anybody familiar with military "scuttlebutt" would have to be skeptical of this assertion. Moreover, it's contradicted by statements in the first paragraph of the "Postwar" section. Anybody care to sort this out?
Cgingold 23:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The movie "The Tuskegee Airmen" specifically quotes that most aircrews didn't specifically know the race of these pilots, but specifically requested the redtails anyway. WHile this is not historically infalible, it does indicate the potential for these facts to be true and casts doubt on those who would claim otherwise. BQZip01 23:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Sourcing a movie, any movie, is neither encyclopedic nor reliable. If anything, the assertion about fallibility goes the other way, and "casts doubt on those etc." is an unnecessarily provocative retort. My father was a 19-year-old staff sergeant gunner on a B-24 at Stornara Italy from July 44 to March 45 and he knew that the 332nd FG was a segregated black outfit.--Buckboard 08:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm just trying to submit some additional items I found on this subject, to fill out your "publications" section. (These were all found over on [http://www.amazon.com/ Amazon.com] Note that I included Amazon links, because they often sell used, "out of print" books.)
Wardster321 03:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Wardster321 04:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Wardster321 05:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC) [3] Silver wings and Silver Wings is also an excellent documentray about the struggles of the Airmen
Can anyone find any information about Mister Rogers's foster brother George? Was he really an instructor at the flight school? What was his last name? --Gbleem 11:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
some free images that might be useful for this article are located here at the LOC. 140.247.240.181 23:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The addition of this section is unnecessarily dismissive of the accomplishments of the unit especially when the reader has nothing to gauge these numbers against. So the unit had 25 bombers lost during its escorts: how does that compare with the rest of the Pursuit units? Mfryc 15:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
