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HiTheCurrencyGuy. I am pondering several improvements to the table(s). For example:
1. Make second symbol column for the exiting alternatives. How to split? Local-used-symbol—latin?
2. Provide option to specify "sing/plural", script when non-Latin (Cyrillic, Arabic), a bit like "fraction" now. Need per symbol i.e. not per row.
3. More systematic info, eg for fractions (extra column? extend current initial noterow?).
4. Local crosslinks (usually looking like [[#dollar]] or § dollar); needs defining anchor per row or symbol, could be name+1st-symbol (dollar-$), usually automated available; should include historical table.
5. Align or merge Historical table (keep distinction somehow).
6. Put (merge) rupees table into main table somehow.
7. Other info structuring? Add Isocode when possible?
8. signal symbol when inline (not just regular text), e.g. use {{mono}} :$; usually {{angle bracket}}⟨$⟩ (ouch)
What do you think? DePiep (talk) 08:10, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with JMF on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8.
On point 7: Including the ISO code (except where used as the only currency symbol, as in the case of the South Sudanese pound) is probably too much clutter. This template is about symbols, the ISO codes are already listed on the ISO 4217 page and are included in most currency-related lists, so it seems rather superfluous to include them here. On a personal note I try to avoid ISO codes unless their use is 100% appropriate as many of them are unintuitive or even resemble completely different abbreviations so are difficult to memorise. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 17:34, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As another watcher of this page, I will add some comments using your numbering:
1. The table is already very wide, I would be very cautious about extending it unless the addition is really important. As we know from the dispute at talk:Egyptian pound, "existing alternatives" is likely to inflame the same passions a 100 times over. Leave it to the relevant articles, IMO
2. Nice to have, takes too much space for what it is worth, not an issue for most currencies, whose grammatical rules do we apply? (cf Lire/Liras)
3. Again, too detailed IMO, leave it to the articles
4. Yes
5. Align yes, merge no (clutter)
6. A political minefield
7. ISO code(s) is the most obvious omission from the current table. Essential update.
8. I suggest using {{code}} as it highlights the symbol well: $. Alternatively, {{char}}$ is more subtle but there have been challenges about when and where it should be used. (It was the source of my only block ever, albeit due to a cock-up not a conspiracy.)
I guess more fundamentally we need to ask what is the purpose of the template? Where is it used and why? It seems to me that there is a serious risk of a WP:FORK of one or more of the many list articles? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:34, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
reGoal of this table. The table is about currency symbols, full stop. So these should be the main, identifying entries. It then must lsit the name(s!) of the symbol ("dollar", "peso"), and the currencies it represents (dozens for $), OK. Note that derived valuta aspects are not relevant (no need to list peggings), except for discerning/specifying symbols. It follows that it should list the formal symbols, including ariants used. Say, as used on coins and notes—at least, and alternatives as used (eg latinised). Again, actual currencies and of course valuta-details are subordinated.
Complaints of being "too wide": then the notes &tc. should be cut down not symbols & their properties.
Also, it follows that symbol-details take precedence over currency-info. So we must show: fraction-info, singular/plural info, script info. As for ISO code: yes very informative, but always re the currency not the symbol (ISO does not even tie any symbol to currency!). So for the "$", that's dozens of ISO's; others have multiple currencies too.
All this does not lead to a simple solution (of what & how to present), but should/could be a guideline for choices. -DePiep (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have added parameters |iso, iso2, iso3= to the /row template. Not yet used, to be decided. Issue: what with multi-currencies like Fr, $-sign? DePiep (talk) 14:22, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So, when we have data "؋ => Afghan afghani, ISO=AFN" available, where should the ISO code link to? Or what to do with it at all? -DePiep (talk) 15:33, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In the cases where the same symbol is used for a number of currencies, each is listed. So list the ISO codes for these same currencies in the same order? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, in general there will be one for each currency. And we can mention the ISO. Then what? link? But to what? What else but "Afghan afghani, ISO=AFN", 170×? The afghani (currency) link already has the ISO code.
Don't want another valuta list. Basically, it's just symbol → currency link(s). DePiep (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I propose to add a second column for symbols. It may be used for secondary, romanised (=into Latin script) and informal symbols. These would not clutter the first, main symbols. It prevents the need for notes like "Arabic form: .د.ت". After all, such symbols may be the (local) primary one.
But maybe we'd better solve this otherwise. It's very clumpy in mobile. Unbold the symbols, smaller font. Design for mobile. -DePiep (talk) 21:00, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn for now, bad table view effects in mobile view. -DePiep (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
the symbol for the Afghan currency is ؋, Af and Afs are abreviations
the Malagassy currency has no currency symbol, it only has the abbreviation Ar so it should not be listed in this table.
etc. etc.
Am I wrong? If so, why? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead, please leave a good note (at least as comment in code, or an es). A degradation to "abbr" should be sound - ad then swift. There's a lot of work to do to get the multi-identifier world of currencies right (ISO, name, symbol, fractions, script/lang, sing/pl). DePiep (talk) 12:11, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote, opening line: A number of the currencies ... don't have a unique symbol but what they do have is an abbreviation letter or letters that act as such. That says to me: "sometimes an abbr is used as a symbol". Next, I wrote: if something is used as a currency symbol, it is a symbol full stop. And the IB will handle it as a currency symbol full stop. This implies that it does not matter where it came from (could be runic, could be an abbr, could be invented, could be double-bar-everything as often occurs this century -- whatever). So, when it <semantically> is a symbol, there is no need to signal where it came from.
That is a convincing answer to my question, so I don't propose to pursue it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The notation "/=" in 100/= is no more a currency symbol than is the ".00" in 100.00 or the ",00" in 100,00. The slash (strictly, solidus) is acting here as a decimal separator. This notation originates from the use of / as proxy for long s, ſ.[1] The ſ is an abbreviation of the word shilling. It is not a currency symbol, any more than a decimal point is. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:48, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, my editsummary was lost wrt [1]. Here it is:
Asymbol is a weldefined coded sign, used to write an amount of money. The format is: Quantity = <symbol> & <number>. With this, it is parallel with SI physical quantities. Also, it allows algebraic arithmetics like adding, conversion, & interest.
All this is different from any verbose description. Sure such description can exist, like in sentences or as abbreviation or even symbols-as-word all right, but that does not alter the autonomous symbol. IOW: a defined symbol exists by itself. Any verbose usage does not alter this.
With this, a slash, "=", "-" can be symbolic too: it defines the amount. It has a defined meaning in there. DePiep (talk) 09:57, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As you write yourself: "The slash is acting here as a decimal separator": that's a symbol then.
One more example: in chemistry, "H" is defined to be the symbol for hydrogen (not "abbreviation" or "acting as"). Because of this symbol definition, one can write "H2" for the substance. Objections 'but it's just the letter H from the alphabet' and 'that's just a figure two' may be true, but is irrelevant. DePiep (talk) 10:31, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but I'm afraid that is WP:SYNTH. Yes, H is widely accepted as being the symbol for Hydrogen, any junior high-school textbook will provide a citation for that. So where is the citation that says that "/=" is a currency symbol? If you can provide even one, I will gladly concede because I haven't managed to find any. [I have retrospectively added to my opening post above a citation for use of / as a proxy for ſ. Note that it says that "s" is an abbreviation, not symbol.]
You observe As you write yourself: "The slash is acting here as a decimal separator": that's a symbol then. So presumably you argue equally that . and , are currency symbols? And you have a citation that supports that assertion? Because 100.00 is equally a "well-defined coded sign used to write an amount of money".--𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. Not SYNTH. It's the very definition of symbol. Do you deny that "L/s/d" is actually a way to write that amount?
2. On enwiki, "." and "," are number parts. Number. As I already wrote. Why don't you see that?
3. No, H is not "accepted" as a symbol, it is defined as symbol. Same as "kg". Why are you deviating?
All in all, you are playing WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, repeatedly. I note that here we are not looking for a source to prove that the symbol is defined & used. At all. Instead, you are denying/ignoring that a proven, sourced sign is a symbol. You are ignoring the definition of "symbol", and its consequences. While it's WP:OBVIOUS. DePiep (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
4. Oh and I forgot: re notation originates from .. -- so what? Again#724: it is defined as a symbol, so it is a symbol. -DePiep (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. Every mark intended to communicate information is a symbol. My local petrol station has a sign 137.9 which I know is intended to convey the information that the price is £1.379 per litre. The 1, the 3, the 7, the . and the 9 are all symbols. Which is the currency symbol?
2. "." and "," are punctuation marks used as decimal separators according to national convention. If I put up a sign saying 7,50 in the UK, it would not be understood or would be misunderstood. To British eyes, it looks seriously weird, just as 7.50 looks weird to French eyes. To both of us, "decimal point is /" is downright odd but in East Africa it is normal: the convention for decimal separator in prices is "/", as in 7/50. That it is only used in prices doesn't make it a currency symbol. It is an abbreviation for "s", meaning "shilling". Or are all abbreviations to be declared symbols now? Elsewhere you have argued (correctly, IMO) that the ISO 4217 code is not a currency symbol. Why not? it symbolises a currency. Doesn't that now make it a currency symbol after all?
3. You are quibbling with words now. As I am sure you know, I mean that the definition is undisputed and indisputable. And citable.
3a. No, the person engaging in IDNHT is you. I have not argued at any point that any of the elements of 7/50 are not symbols, but only that they are notations and abbreviations, not currency symbols. We have a citation that says that the / is a proxy for long s and that that "s" is abbreviation for shilling. No evidence has been produced yet for the contrary proposition. To shout at me that you are right and I am wrong gets us nowhere.
4. % is a symbol too. Again, so what? It is entirely irrelevant because the question at hand is "is this a currency symbol". It too is defined as a symbol and it is a symbol. But it is not a currency symbol, despite being used extensively in financial contexts. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:42, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
References
^Fowler, Francis George (1917). "solidus". The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English. p. 829 – via archive.org. sǒ·lidus, n. (pl. -di). (Hist.) gold coin introduced by Roman Emperor Constantine; (only in abbr. s.) shilling(s), as 7s. 6d., £1 1s.; the shilling line (for ſ or long s) as in 7/6. [LL use of L SOLIDus]
