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"Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts."
— Bernard Baruch
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for instruction against ignorance, counsel against strife, and truth against harmful falsehood."
— Bardic Triad
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— Proverbs 18:17 (The Living Bible)
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Hello, I'm Kate the mochii. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, it's important to be mindful of the feelings of your fellow editors, who may be frustrated by certain types of interaction, such as your addition to Talk:Transsexual. While you probably didn't intend any offense, please do remember that Wikipedia strives to be an inclusive atmosphere. In light of that, it would be greatly appreciated if you could moderate yourself so as not to offend. I notice you have been replying consistently to questions or comments not directed to you: see WP:BLUDGEONING. Kate the mochii (talk) 03:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
if you could moderate yourself so as not to offend." — Gladly! What specifically was offensive?
you have been replying consistently to questions or comments not directed to you" — Occasionally. I have even more often been replying to questions or comments that were directed to me... so what do you mean by "consistently"? – .Raven .talk 05:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for disruptive editing. Specifically, acute bludgeoning of discussions in multiple venues since my partial block for bludgeoning was applied on June 21. Until you are able to commit to moderating your behaviour, there's simply no point in setting the block to expire, as this problem seems very likely to reoccur. There is a fundamental impasse here, which seems to follow your notion that editcountitis renders bludgeoning of any given discussion virtually impossible — I assure you that that is not so. The fact you fail to realize that you've exhausted the patience of so many of your fellow editors is something you need to recognize and come to terms with. Accordingly, detailed assurances of significant improvement will be required in order to see this block lifted (consult WP:GAB for best outcomes). For reference, latest ANI permalink.
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text at the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. El_C 13:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
your notion that
editcountitis
renders bludgeoning of any given discussion virtually impossible"
Edit quantity over edit quality is almost always a waste of community time.. And if you have read WP:BLUDGEON (and I presume that you have) you'd know that it has little to do with the quantity of the edits, but what the edits consist of. Hence: editcountitis is for the birds.
This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.") is grounds for sanctions (twice now); it is stranger still that what that essay actually says ("
Sometimes, a long comment or replying multiple times is perfectly acceptable or needed. ... Replying to many questions that are directed to you is perfectly fine. ... Offering a rebuttal to a comment is also fine...") was ignored in favor of insistence that I should not even respond to accusations against me, particularly those containing factual misstatements — thus excluding defense against those accusations and misstatements, and rigging the outcome. If what happened in my AN/I case has become "standard practice", it's the worse for Wikipedia: mobbing induces false consensus. – .Raven .talk 14:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
... edit counts do not judge the quality of the edits, as insightful comments on talk pages and acts of vandalism are counted equally. Hence, it is not always a reliable way of telling how experienced or worthy a user truly is.
Given to or marked by an ill-tempered nature; ill-tempered, cranky, surly, crabby."
When someone takes persistence to a level that overwhelms or intimidates others, or limits others' ability to interject their opinions without worrying about being verbally attacked, then this activity has risen to a level of abuse.
To date, no-one has pointed to a comment of mine that actually contains "intimidation" or "verbal attack"
... such as your addition to Talk:Transsexual." — which is non-specific, since I'd made more than one "addition" there. My reply to your
"if you could moderate yourself so as not to offend."was "Gladly! What specifically was offensive?"... and you have never answered that. Linking to your own original comment still does not answer that. I cannot read your mind. Will you please specify your referent? – .Raven .talk 19:40, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(ec - note: I am keeping my admin hat off for these circumstances.)
I'm sorry to see that this happened.
I see now that you have apparently been quoting my use of "editcountitis". My point there is that not all edits are equal. So trying to merely count edits would not be good.
However, that is not an excuse to make multiple repeated combative comments. When we say "quality over quantity", that means providing the "quality". Just merely looking over AN/I, it was becoming pretty obvious that you were heading towards an indefinite block. So I tried to provide you an opportunity above, but you made a different choice. And while you are free to make your own choice. Sometimes our choices come with repercussions.
At this point, should you decide to request an unblock, you might want to take on board some of the concerns laid out above.
And of course, the opportunity above is still available to you should you so choose. though at this point, there's no guarantee what the result may be.
Whatever the future brings, I wish you well. - jc37 15:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW I strongly oppose this block. Lots of editors making a bad argument for a temp block does not warrant an indefinite block. None of Raven's behavior so far has warranted an indefinite block or in fact any block. Loki (talk) 16:49, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:DISRUPTSIGNS:
A disruptive editor is an editor who exhibits tendencies such as the following:
- Istendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editors not only add material; some engage in disruptive deletions as well, e.g. repeatedly removing reliable sources posted by other editors.
- Is unwilling or unable to satisfy Wikipedia:Verifiability; fails to cite sources, cites unencyclopedic sources, misrepresents reliable sources, or manufactures original research.
- Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging"; adds unjustified {{citation needed}} tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable.
- Does not engage in consensus building:
- repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits;
- repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits.
- Rejects or ignores community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors.
In addition, such editors might:
- Campaign to drive away productive contributors: act counter to policies and guidelines such as Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No personal attacks, or Wikipedia:Ownership of articles—or sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry that might not exhaust the general community's patience but still operates toward an end of exhausting the patience of productive, rule-abiding editors on certain articles.
Notably, I have done none of these. My edits were to comment pages specifically to discuss article edits rather than unilaterally make them (with the risk of ensuing reversions or edit wars); I did so giving either factual citations or policy/guideline links to support my reasoning — indeed, the complaints were precisely that I had done so too much (in the opinion of those opposed to my suggested edits). When this was lawfared to WP:ANI, numerous false assertions were made by others; having observed that others accused had been judged harshly for NOT responding to assertions/accusations (apparently the maxim "to fail to deny is to admit" was in force), I responded to these (quite the opposite of "disregard[ing] other editors' questions or requests for explanations")... and was further accused — and apparently judged — for having responded to them. The one and only time anyone objected to an actual article edit of mine was after I had been invited to make such an edit... and it was immediately reverted as not good enough, though the changes it made to its original (notably adding verifiable citations where CN tags had been) were exactly what had been demanded, and the reversion deleted sourced text. I did not edit-war even in that situation; a sandbox was created, I was invited to edit there, and was thanked when I recreated my article-edit version there. This does not meet the above description of "tendentious editing", let alone "disregarding" others' comments/requests.
As for talkpage comments and the accusation of "bludgeoning"... WP:BLUDGEON says: When someone takes persistence to a level that overwhelms or intimidates others, or limits others' ability to interject their opinions without worrying about being verbally attacked, then this activity has risen to a level of abuse.
— I have not verbally attacked anyone. Above and at ANI, one person asserted I had posted something "offensive", but declined to specify what, despite repeated requests. I invite anyone to read that conversation and tell me what I said that was offensive — please. For that matter, to read all the conversations brought up, and find where I verbally attacked or intimidated or otherwise tried to limit anyone's ability to post their own opinions. I would think that inviting prior RfC participants or related groups to join new RfCs is quite the reverse; likewise, posting comments like "You certainly can point out whatever you think any page 'really ought to only be about'. Your opinion, taken with others, goes into the mix from which consensus (or 'no consensus') is derived." -or- "And I'll certainly support and defend your right to your opinion, on this and any other matter. Agree to disagree?" are not attempts to silence or coerce other opinions, far from it.
The hostility, and intent to "limit the ability to interject opinions", have come from the other direction. But again notably, even the ANI thread contained motions for no more than a temporary block. It has now been in place for a month and a half. Loki's comment above ("Lots of editors making a bad argument for a temp block does not warrant an indefinite block. None of Raven's behavior so far has warranted an indefinite block or in fact any block.")
seems apt. – .Raven .talk 01:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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