Hi again Melcous. I noticed that you have the page mover right; might you be willing to move Neville Lancelot GoddardtoNeville Goddard per WP:COMMONNAME? I'd like to do it myself but it's obstructed by the target article being a redirect. He is not commonly referred to with his middle name included. Feel free to examine the article's sources to verify for yourself. Thanks. Left guide (talk) 09:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Left guide, I'm quite new to page mover rights, so this was my first round robin move. Hopefully it was all done ok - let me know if you think I've missed anything? Melcous (talk) 11:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the notion that the information you keep removing is not notable, the boat race is a televised national event therefore the names of participants who went to University College is notable information for an encyclopaedia.
Furthermore I do not understand the continued removal especially when many other Oxford College Boat Clubs have had this information on their pages for many years. Any further information you could share would be much appreciated, thank you! OxfordRowing (talk) 14:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@OxfordRowing: thanks for discussing this, but the place to do so is on the article talk page, particularly as I am not the only editor who has disagreed with the inclusion of this content. Consensus needs to be sought before it could be put into the article again. But to your questions here briefly, the boat race being nationally televised might be a good argument for why the race is notable, but has nothing to do with whether it is ok to list non-notable participants. Also see WP:OSE which is always an argument to avoid. Thank you Melcous (talk) 22:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Melcous, just a comment about your recent edit. You just reverted the whole thing rather than actually looking through it. This therefore reverted the addition of some third party citations which were aiming to start fixing the issue that you have flagged the page with.
I would also encourage a discussion on the talk page of the article as these changes really do bring the article in line with established consensus for other clubs and therefore should be allowed to remain. Please use the talk page to explain your reasons for disagreement so that I can address them. Thank you OxfordRowing (talk) 21:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have edited the languages and tone of the content as it has required for wiki page. I request you to kindly revisit the page Deshkal Society as you have added the ADS TAG there. ThePerfectYellow (talk) 08:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ThePerfectYellow: I revisited the page after your previous message, and I do not believe the issue has been resolved. The lead, and the the entire article, read as if they are written to promote the society and its work, not from a WP:NPOV. Melcous (talk) 22:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that you placed a template on the article indicating several issues, and I would appreciate some help and clarification.
I didn't understand why the article was marked as "written like a resume" – isn't this the typical style for biographical entries?
Regarding the "notability guideline" – a notability discussion was held on the Hebrew Wikipedia, and many editors argued that the subject is notable enough. Isn't this sufficient to justify translating the article into English?
I would appreciate guidance on how to improve the article. I saw that you have created quite a few biographies on Wikipedia, and I would love your help to advance in this area :)
Hiאייל and thanks for your message. Having an article or discussion on another language wikipedia does not mean something is necessarily notable here - see WP:OTHERLANGS. Notability needs to be demonstrated according to the criteria here. On the Resume like tag, I added that before a number of changes were made and some of them have addressed the issues so I will remove that. Thank you Melcous (talk) 02:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the required references and paragraph of Publications. I don't think the comment you make on his Notability is right. He is from Sri Lanka and have done anthropological work in South Asia. Kindly reconsider this and remove the tag. ThePerfectYellow (talk) 18:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ThePerfectYellow:, Notability is not a matter of what you or I think. It needs to be demonstrated that he meets WP:NPROF, which is very specific, or other notability criteria. Please read through this, and then I would suggest putting on the talk page of the article a succinct explanation of which of the listed criteria you believe he meets, with sources to verify that. Thank you Melcous (talk) 22:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read this WP:NPROF. You need to understand how anthropology works and practices. They don't work in bulk like the other academician or subject experts. Here writing one article takes a minimum of two years because they adopt ethnography as a method of collecting data. You may not find Pradeep's works in terms of quantity as compared of others but the impact of his writing is so large. His writing on violence is a core subject in many anthropology departments.
I again repeat myself that reconsider all this. Also here, in the current edit, I have added content with references to reputed libraries and publications. Sources are from Jstor, google book, and Libraries. ThePerfectYellow (talk) 05:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ThePerfectYellow: and again, discussion about this belongs on the article's talk page, not here. My understanding about anthropology is not the issue here, WP:NPROF applies to all academic disciplines. If you can demonstrate with sources how he meets one of the listed criteria there, please do so ... on the article talk page. Melcous (talk) 11:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers
I noticed that you flagged the article Jordan Schmidt in May 2024, indicating “"this article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments." I'm curious, which editor out of the 128 did you suspect was a professional Wikipedia writer, given that the article was created in 2014? Can you please disclose the source of this accusation?
Michael Jannetta (talk) 22:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi again,
Could you please help me build my understanding of the "pattern of editing" you see in this article? I do not want to fall into the same trap. I decided to edit the Jordan Schmidt page and corresponding Discography as one of my pet projects. I can assure you I am not a paid professional; I am just a little grampa living in Nebraska and needing hobbies.
I corresponded with User: Mark (daschent) (Mark Schmidt) the other day. He has no idea who User Josephchudyk (Joseph Chudyk) and Chelseadelmege (Chelsea D. Smith) are. They do not work for, with, or are related to Jordan Schmidt. They are among many people who like editing a country star's Wikipedia page. If they are paid professionals, so be it. Jordan Schmidt did not hire them.
Mark Schmidt (Mark (daschent)) is a very inexperienced Wikipedia user. He is not a paid professional Wikipedia writer. He works with his son, not for his son–Jordan Schmidt. He has no idea what a COI is or where his talk page is or what to do if he received a COI notice. His contributions have mainly been in adding data to Jordan's Discography. When he edited different sections of the article, his goal was not to intentionally publish content that others might see as promotional.
In fact, other Wikipedians quickly corrected this unintentional connection.
He is caught up in the dilemma of writing about a living celebrity. If we are writing about a living actor or songwriter, listing their accomplishments, i.e. movies and songs, could be viewed as self-promoting, yet a failure to list them might lessen their nobility status. Where Mark listed an excessive number of songs and TV placements, users quickly modified the verbiage. The songs listings have been moved to the Discography page, and their numbers have been adjusted accordingly.
Mark will continue to add to the Discography page. I don't see how adding factual data to a page is a COI infraction.
Once again, I would like to ask if we can remove the
This article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments, a violation of Wikipedia's terms of use. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view. (May 2024)
tag. If you disagree, could we elicit a second opinion from one of your fellow editors?
Mtjannetta, you need to be very careful (as do I) about WP:OUTING editors. I am curious as to how you have corresponded with User:Mark (daschent), as you have not done so using the talk pages here on wikipedia which are specifically for that purpose.
To your questions,
WP:PAID does not just cover what you have called paid professional Wikipedia writers, but also specifically says Users who are compensated for any publicity efforts related to the subject of their Wikipedia contributions are deemed to be paid editors, regardless of whether they were compensated specifically to edit Wikipedia. Again from off-wiki evidence that is not hard to find, it appears that each of those editors may fit that bill in some way.
Once again, I do not know of any instance where User Josephchudyk and Chelseadelmege were compensated directly by Jordan Schmidt or the organization he works for to add line items to Jordan Schmidt’s discography and awards section. This conclusion was reached by discussion with Mark Schmidt. Why anyone would compensate individuals for adding line items to awards and Discography is beyond me. Let's say they were paid by someone other than Jordan Schmidt or his affiliated organization. In that case, it is irrelevant to your flag since your citation states, “are compensated for any publicity efforts related to the subject of their Wikipedia contributions.”
If one of those editors has disclosed to you that they are editing about a family member, I would advise them that that is by definition a conflict interest and as such they are requested to not directly edit such articles at all. If they want to contribute to such articles, they can learn to use the talk page to do so. Otherwise they can leave it to non-conflicted editors. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this is an encyclopedia not a personal website, and writing neutrally is a core pillar of this project, which it is almost impossible for family members to do.
I have been friends with Mark Schmidt for decades. Our means of communication include text, email, and phone. I highly doubt we will transition our discussions to a Wikipedia talk page after all this time—it seems impersonal. It appears that we're crossing into personal territory. Despite being Jordan's father, he can definitely maintain a neutral perspective. As mentioned earlier, any contributions he made to Jordan Schmidt that seemed promotional were swiftly removed by other editors. The majority of his contribution has been in expanding the discography. The process of adding these items is relatively straightforward, ensuring no personal bias is involved.
Similar to the other two users, Mark has primarily edited the Discography, RIAA Certifications, or Related Awards sections in the Jordan Schmidt article. Can a conflict of interest arise from adding a publicly available award citation to a pre-existing chart in a Wikipedia article? It's unclear to me how someone can breach one of Wikipedia's central pillars in this way.
As for who the other two editors are, I would again warn you about WP:OUTING, but am also curious how you are so confident you know who they are. Do you have any connection to any of them?
I am not confident who these two users are, but this is how I arrived at my conclusion. I took their usernames, i.e., User Josephchudyk and Chelseadelmege, and deduced they were created using their first and last names. I split user IDs into first and last names and searched the outcome on Google. I shared the hits in this thread. I wasn't purposely outing them, just curious as a researcher about their identity. I reiterate, it was not my intention to “out” these folks, merely to see who they are and if Jordan Schmidt has any connection to them. He does not. I want to clarify that I am not connected or related to these individuals.
Finally, by "pattern of editing" I mean the fact that these editors have all exclusively edited the same related articles. Most people who edit wikipedia for a hobby get involved in editing across a broad range of articles. Most people with a COI or who are paid do not. That is obviously not proof of anything, but given the context here, means there is an issue that needs to be addressed. So no, I do not believe the tag should be removed. You are always welcome to seek an opinion from another editor. Melcous (talk) 06:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This text is differentTo wrap it up, if my understanding of your compensation flag is accurate. Is it reasonable to state-
In America (Australia too), individuals are considered innocent unless proven guilty beyond any doubt. Your flag primarily relies on a "pattern of editing. Would it be accurate to say that your perception of this pattern is based on your subjective viewpoint? Can we assume you chose this country star because you think he has enough money to pay people to edit his Wikipedia page? To the best of my knowledge, you haven't accused any country superstars of the same charge, is that correct? If I'm mistaken, please correct me. I want to confirm that you won't remove this flag based on your subjective opinion, even though the editors' contributions were mostly black and white and not open to any interpretation or personal bias.}}
@Mtjannetta:, as you have a personal relationship with a family member of the subject of the article, it would seem you too have a clear conflict of interest. Your own personal discussions with this person about who is and is not paid by whom are not relevant here, nor is his subjective opinion about whether he believes he can maintain a neutral perspective. Please see again the very first paragraph of that behavioural guideline, which says Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships. Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest. Someone having a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgment about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith. Also, this is not a court of law: there is no "presumption of innoence" nor am I "accusing" anyone of anything. This is a website that has guidelines on editors' behaviour, that those who sign up to edit here agree by doing so to abide by. My suggestion would be that both of you need to step away from articles that you are connected to by virtue of your relationships, and allow the normal process of wikipedia to take its course regarding what content is or isn't in the article or what maintenance templates are attached to it. There is no deadline here. Melcous (talk) 15:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will add, you stated above I reiterate, it was not my intention to “out” these folks, merely to see who they are and if Jordan Schmidt has any connection to them. He does not. (emphasis added) If these names do represent such people, this is false. A google search of these names indicates that there are relatively easily discoverable connections to Schmidt. Melcous (talk) 15:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I must thank you for your actions on the article, Raphael James. I am focused on learning more about encyclopedic tone. I love biographies and I work hard on my articles with the desire to enrich this wiki project, so your revert made in good faith is respectable. Cheers.
Royalrumblebee (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For your hard (and frequently thankless) work in rooting out COI/undisclosed paid edits and ensuring users comply with our policies. Much appreciated! Drm310🍁 (talk) 17:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, really appreciate your help... אייל (talk) 15:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
