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We clearly have a different understanding of how WP:BRD operates. User:Sideswipe9thBoldly added the musician tweets with this edit [1]. Then I Reverted that bold edit here [2]. Next step was Discuss. But you reverted me here [3]. So you took it to BRR. Just to reiterate, per WP:ONUS, "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." WWGB (talk) 06:39, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You removed the musical tweets, I restored them, you largely removed them again with slight alterations, without discussing to my knowledge. That’s your violation of the BRD cycle. I’d be happy to take a closer look at the edit long in case I missed soemthing, but by my account of events, you just deleted something, it was reverted, then you deleted it again just a little less.
Because in the absence of a consensus, the status quo wins out. That’s your violation by re-removing it. Therefore, your violation of the BRD cycle. Snokalok (talk) 06:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey @Snokalok, just wanted to leave you this and thank you for the work you do! I've seen your contributions to that article on my watch-list often and am always very thankful for them, and checking your contributions your work is even more impressive!
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Edits to Killing of Brianna Ghey about the trial[edit]
Hey. Could I convince you to self-revert the content you've just added to Killing of Brianna Ghey, and then start a discussion about it on the talk page? I'm uneasy on WP:BLP grounds about including direct quotes and summaries of what the prosecutors and defence teams are saying, especially with regards to statements that the jury may or may not find proven. I think it would be better to err on the side of caution here, given the nature of the crime, and the ages of the accused. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate you taking the time to ask - though I would like to lodge a counterpoint, that the defendants' identities are thoroughly shielded both in reporting and legally and thus, it's not really BLP because it's not describing, anyone, just a boy and a girl age 16. Additionally, as to the nature of the evidence itself, everything presented (as the sources will reflect) was in the form of written text messages, meaning there's no degree of hearsay here, short of the UK police faking entire text conversations. But of course, WP:ONUS is on inclusion, so if you believe it wouldn't be good to have, you do have the high ground.
Additionally, I'd like to lodge the addendum that the jury's findings and the case each side presents are not inherently the same matters, and that for sufficiently notable cases, both things should be recorded. The most prominent example is the OJ Simpson trial. Simpson was of course, ruled innocent, and yet Wikipedia still presents the cases brought by both the prosecution and defense. Snokalok (talk) 17:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
you do have the high ground Very much resisting the urge to make a General Kenobi joke here :)
So on the identifiability of the accused, this is one of those borderline areas where there isn't a consensus on whether or not an unnamed but otherwise described individual is considered identified and covered by BLP. There was a similar issue that came up a couple of days ago on 2023 Dublin riot, relating to the alleged nationality of the assailant in the stabbings that preceded the riot, that I ran into when requesting RD2 of some content. There's good faith arguments that can be made by either side.
Personally I fall into the camp that BLP must cover any content relating to the accused in this case, even if their names are subject to court reporting restrictions. They are, through indirect means, identifiable individuals, and I think there is probably more than enough information out there in general that someone determined would be able to find out their names.
However the issue here is more to do with the nature of live reporting of a trial in progress, than the accused being identifiable. From the sources you included, we know some of what the prosecution said when opening their case, and the basis for making those remarks. But we don't know everything of what was said today. Nor do we know how the jury is going to consider that information. We don't know if they're going to find it convincing, and we don't yet know how the defence is going to react to that. While it's an essay on notability as a whole, WP:TOOSOON touches on some of the concepts I'm trying (and maybe poorly) to impart here.
With regards to the Murder trial of O. J. Simpson, while it is true that the article covers the events of the trial in great detail, it is all written primarily using sources published after the trial had concluded. That article benefits greatly from having access to both the judgement of the case, as well as interpretations of it by legal scholars writing after the judgement had been issued. We know from those sources what aspects of the prosecution and defence cases were found convincing, what aspects were found proven, and what aspects were found unproven.
I'm not saying that we can't ever include this information. I'm just saying that now may not be the right time to include it. If we wait until the judgement is issued, we'll have a much fuller idea of the case, and the proven facts relating to it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could I convince you to go halfsies for now as have us make a "prosecution case" subsection the way they did on the OJ trial page? Wikipedia is of course a living document, so for any event or any span of time information is going to be added and trimmed as it becomes notable and relevant compared to other information available, and having this much detail so far is no guarantee that the same information will be held in the same detail in future.
If that doesn't work for you, say the word, I'll delete it, and we'll wait
The issue for me isn't really the header used for the section, it's the content that appears within it. If all we were saying today was that something minimal like "the prosecution opened its case on 27 November 2023", and potentially including the names of the prosecuting barrister and sitting judge, that'd be OK. The issue is that we're going into detail about things that may not, by the time the case ends, be considered proven by the jury.
At the end of the case however, when a judgement is issued, and analysed by reliable sources, that would be the time we could start summarising details like this. We'd have the benefit of hindsight, in that we can summarise what the key findings are, and what evidence those findings are based upon. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. In the meantime, I shall revert. Though I still believe that whether or not the case is considered proven by the jury is only part of the story, and that the government being able to convince 12 people of something is by no means a determinant of objective fact. Snokalok (talk) 18:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's certainly true, but this sort of proceedings is something that we have to be very careful with summarising, particularly when it is in progress. We have a bit more freedom once a judgement has been issued, as we generally have much stronger sourcing shortly after that happens. Covering trials in progress, no matter the nature of the proceedings, is always difficult.
Thanks for self-reverting, we can discuss the particulars in more detail over on the article talk page. Maybe consensus will be against me on this, and the section can be restored. I just prefer to be more cautious when it comes to BLP content :) Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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