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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arnon Zamora

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Arnon Zamora (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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WP:BIO1E, didn't receive any significant attention before his death, and didn't play a truly major role in the event he is remembered for. Should be redirected to 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation, but this was opposed by the article creator, so it's up to AfD to decide. Fram (talk) 07:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Military, Israel, and Palestine. Fram (talk) 07:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am said article creator, and this is my argument to keep this article:

WP:BIO1E says:

"if a significant event is of rare importance, even relatively minor participants may warrant their own articles. An example of this is Howard Brennan, a witness to the JFK assassination."

The 2024 Nuseirat Rescue Operation made world news and will be remembered an important event within the context of the Israel-Hamas War. Since it's creation, six days ago, it has received 84,000 pageviews!

In comparison, for example, the Occupation of Veracuz has only had 116 views in the last year, and yet, there are 56 individual Wikipedia pages for each recipient of the medal of honor from that war! Essentially, every one of those individuals is a WP:BIO1E exception who rises to the level of fame allowing a WP:BIO1E exception to be made (for an event of large enough magnitude).

How could one possibly argue that the 2024 Nuseirat Rescue Operation does not rise to "rare importance," and Arnon Zamora does not play an important role in this event!?

If we are to remove Arnon Zamora, it would only make sense to remove the other 56 medal of honor winners, as the 2024 Nuseirat Rescue Operation has 724 times more views than the Occupation of Veracruz has over the last year.

Based on this pretext, I would argue that Arnon Zamora undoubtedly rises to the level of notability and fame to be a WP:BIO1E exception. Afdshah (talk) 09:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing something in the news now with something historical is not really convincing. The exampe of an exception in BIO1E is the assassination of JFK: this event here is way, way less important in the long run, and his role in it was run-of-the-mill, but he died and gets glorified by some media, the military and politics, as if dying is an achievement. Fram (talk) 09:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? The Occupation of Veracruz has 1124 views, EVER.

The 2024 Nuseirat Rescue Operation will be remembered as a historical event, and a major point in the Israel-Hamas War.

Zamora's role in it was certainly more important than Howard Brennan's role in the JFK Assassination. Unlike Brennan's role as a witness, Zamora actually commanded the operation and was the first person into the building in this historic event! I wouldn't say his role was "run-of-the-mill."

Even if we compare the JFK Assassination to the 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation, we can find that the rescue operation has twice as many views in the last six days. Of course, I'm not arguing that this rescue operation was as important as the JFK Assassination, however, the sheer notability and fame that this event has garnished, in my mind, makes it worthwhile of a WP:BIO1E exception.

And why can't one compare this event, which will be remembered in history, to an event like the Occupation of Veracruz? Afdshah (talk) 10:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just checking; the 84000 pageviews is for the target article, not for the article at AfD. And your numbers for the United States occupation of Veracruz are way off, it gets 300 pageviews per day[1], not your claimed "116 views in the last year". Even the redirect Occupation of Veracruz got 943 views last year, so no idea what you were looking at. The comparison is completely irrelevant, things in the news always get more views, but if you want to make such a comparison, at least make sure that your numbers are correct. You were nearly a factor 1,000 off[2]... Fram (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am so sorry- you're right I was way off in what I said - I accidentally used the Pageview tool to search for the Occupation of Vera Cruz which is a redirect to the actual page.

I apologize - I should have checked more carefully before making that claim.

However, my comparison of notability and fame still stands as the United States Occupation of Veracruz only has 1,700 pageviews in the same amount of time as it took the 2024 Nuseirat Rescue Operation to reach 84,000 (since 6/8). There is still a difference of 50x.

While it is true that things in the news get more views, my argument is that the rescue operation is a major historical event just like the Occupation of Veracruz.

There are 56 medal of honor winners with their own Wikipedia page for the Occupation of Veracruz, each one a WP:BIO1E exception.

If the Occupation of Veracuz rises to the level of historical importance that this exemption applies for 56 people, this historical hostage rescue operation certainly rises to the level of importance that one exception can be made.

And the article at AfD is brand new - I haven't even linked it on the 2024 Nuseirat Operation page yet and it has 104 views. That's more than twice the 43 views that Berrie H. Jarrett has in the last year. I'll link at now and we can see its views in the next 24 hours. Afdshah (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirectto2024 Nuseirat rescue operation, as suggested by nominator, per WP:BIO1E, WP:ATD, and WP:CHEAP. Zomara is repeatedly mentioned at the target, is only known for this event, and the operation was posthumously named by Israel after Zomara, so a strong bidirectional relationship exists. gidonb (talk) 18:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: not significant enough for Wikipedia. EncyclopediaEditorXIV (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The page received 313 pageviews today and is about an important figure in the rescue operation and in the broader Israel-Hamas war.

  Many of the pages of the medal of honor Veracruz winners receive fewer than 313 views per year, but are exceptions to WP:BIO1E because the Occupation of Veracuz was a sufficiently significant event.

  Clearly, the Arnon Zamora page generates more views than these pages, and he played a very similar role to the medal of honor winners. Are you arguing then, that the Israel-Hamas War isn't a sufficiently significant event?

  What exactly is your metric for significance? Afdshah (talk) 20:21, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: His death is referenced in the article for the massacre at Nuseirat. Much of the article and paragraph surrounding his death comes off as Israeli propaganda and POV-pushing, while the rest is just minor coverage. Jebiguess (talk) 01:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's Israeli propaganda/POV-pushing? The only points about his death are that he was the first into the building holding 3 hostages, he was injured, and that he was evacuated and died in the hospital. Where is the Israeli propaganda?

Are you disputing one of these claims? Afdshah (talk) 08:36, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Knowing Israeli dynamics, it's a short matter of time before we start seeing streets, schools and so on named after him, just like nobody knew who Yonatan Netanyahu was before the Entebbe operation. He will probably also get a posthumous medal. DGtal (talk) 09:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirectto2024 Nuseirat rescue operation. Zamora being likely to receive honors in the near future is a case of WP:TOOSOON. The redirect can always be undone once notability is established. Best, GPL93 (talk) 11:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirectto2024 Nuseirat rescue operation. WP:BIO1E, didn't receive any significant attention before his death, and didn't play a truly major role in the event he is remembered for, per Fram. Being killed in a military operation isn't significant in itself in WP terms, regardless of how 'heroic' it may seem to the 'home audience'. There could be future coverage about him, but that's WP:CRYSTAL.Pincrete (talk) 06:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.