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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Klim Zhukov

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Klim Zhukov (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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The subject of the article is of no importance for the English Wikipedia: it is written that Zhukov is a historian and historical reenactor, although he does not have a scientific degree, and his education is not historical. From the heap of sources given, there is not a single significant one. Sincerely, Emenrigen (talk) 08:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. There is a suspicion that the article (and its Russian original) is autobiographical, since the contribution of the creator, Мит Соколов, is mostly editing this article.. The hobbies presented on the user's page coincide with the hobbies of the person in the article. Sincerely, Emenrigen (talk) 08:35, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The article contains sources with similar names: "TOP 10 fascinating historical bestsellers", "Soldier of the Emperor" - a historical fiction novel, "Poll: Russians trust Dud most of all on the Internet". It seems that the author tried to create the appearance that the article was supported by many sources, but did not look at their content. 144.206.129.3 (talk) 08:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  What? (My English is bad, sorry.) Okey. Let's see for example, what you brought, "Poll: Russians trust Dud most of all on the Internet" [1]. What is this source? It is Newizv.ru. What does this source say?『Исследовательский холдинг Ромир подвел итоги опроса: кому доверяет Россия в 2020 году – интернет-деятели』("Research holding Romir summed up the results of the survey: who does Russia trust in 2020 - Internet figures"). (Romir is led by Andrey Milekhin.) And what does this rating say? 1. Yury Dud. 2. Nastya Ivleeva. 3. Garik Kharlamov. 4. Dmitry Puchkov. 5. Pavel Durov. 6. Ilya Varlamov. 7. !!! Klim Zhukov !!!. (8. Ida Galich. 9 Irena Ponaroshku. 10. BadComedian.) So what does "author... not look at their content" mean? --Мит Сколов (talk) 08:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators, Authors, History, and Russia. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:55, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Coverage in Russian media here, here and here, for a start. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 16:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. His books have been reviewed in the Mir Fantastiki [2][3]. As a blogger he was researched in the magazine of Russian Public Opinion Research Center [4]. --Мит Сколов (talk) 17:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as PR article. According to the rules, coverage should only be in authoritative sources, which the Mir Fantastiki is not. In addition, as was emphasized by the user of Emenrigen, Klim Zhukov has neither a historical education nor a scientific degree, that is, de facto does not fall into the category of significant people (I ask you to familiarize yourself with these rules). Now, given the available sources, Klim Zhukov is only a science fiction writer. Noraskulk (talk) 10:41, 8 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

And the article says that Klim Zhukov advised the film "Alexander", although the earliest source says[5] that he simply participated in the extras. Noraskulk (talk) 10:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

But this source says that he is "a specialist in military history and reenactor, as well as a consulting historian for the film "Alexander. Battle of the Neva" (2008). See p. 18 --Мит Сколов (talk) 13:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:16, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some people say: Klim Zhukov does not have a history education. But for fact-checking: Klim Zhukov is a graduate of the Faculty of History of St. Petersburg State University [6]. Yes, Klim Zhukov did not complete his PhD [7] (his doctoral adviser was Anatoly Kirpichnikov [8]). But Klim Zhukov is a cited historian [9][10][11][12][13]. --Мит Сколов (talk) 11:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Answering your first remark: you refer to the student's remark (on page 15 it is written: Yulia Vitalievna Kaporina, student, Krasnodar), i.e. Again, this is not a reputable source. And by the way, she makes a number of mistakes that are unforgivable even for a student: she calls Klim Zhukov a "specialist in military history", which is not true, and, calling him a "consultant" for the film "Alexander", refers to a YouTube video where he (again!) calls himself that. At the moment, the only authoritative source says only that Klim Zhukov only participated in extras in this film. Noraskulk (talk) 08:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
  • But this book has an editorial board headed by Dr Ахметов Ильдар Гумерович. --Мит Сколов (talk) 08:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In response to your third remark. Did you know that when YouTube recently banned Dmitry Puchkov, with whom Klim Zhukov is closely associated, Dmitry Medvedev found words of support for Puchkov? [14][15][16] --Мит Сколов (talk) 08:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Мит Сколов, Dmitry Puchkov is a completely different story. Firstly, in the English-speaking segment, he is known as a developer of computer games, secondly, he is a professional voice actor, and thirdly, he is a blogger, which is said in the article about him. By the way, the article about Klim Zhukov could well be left, but only indicating that he is a science fiction writer and amateur historian (because he has scientific publications). Noraskulk (talk) 09:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  But Zhukov is also a blogger. He works closely with Puchkov. Sources highlight this. [17][18][19][20][21] --Мит Сколов (talk) 09:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  "By the way, the article about Klim Zhukov could well be left, but only indicating that he is a science fiction writer and amateur historian (because he has scientific publications)." I'm glad you heard me. Feel free to fix it. You see that it is difficult for me to write in English. By the way, let's see, Professor Leontii Voitovych recommended Zhukov's book and referred to it. [22][23] --Мит Сколов (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Ok, I admit, the article has minimal significance. I am changing my mind. Noraskulk (talk) 09:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• • You say you don't like "she calls Klim Zhukov a "specialist in military history", which is not true". But why is he called a military historian in the media? [24][25][26][27] --Мит Сколов (talk) 09:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Because Klim Zhukov has no historical qualifications. We need a source confirming that all these people have the right to refer to him as an authoritative historian. But since he doesn't have a degree and can't teach, I assume there is no such source. Noraskulk (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

• In response to your second remark: in most of the works cited, articles by K. Zhukov are only mentioned in the list of recommended literature. In addition, these are secondary sources, and here needed a primary one, confirming that Klim Zhukov is an authoritative historian with a scientific degree, and, therefore, he can be referred to as an authoritative historian. You yourself confirmed that he did not even defend his dissertation. Noraskulk (talk) 08:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  There are very famous historians who do not have a doctoral degree, such as Alan Cameron (classicist). --Мит Сколов (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Мит Сколов, Alan Cameron is Charles Anthon Professor Emeritus of the Latin Language and Literature. Klim Zhukov, as we found out, is a blogger and amateur historian. Emenrigen (talk) 17:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, and Alan Cameron doesn't have a "doctoral degree". I do not want to seem intrusive, but I hope that Noraskulk will appreciate it: Alexey Karpov doesn't seem to have a PhD. Sorry, I didn't start pedaling this fact. I don't know what you mean by "amateur". Klim Zhukov is the author of works that are cited by other historians. Please take a look at the links [28][29][30][31][32]. When that's not enough, tell me and I'll bring more. You also forgot to mention that Klim Zhukov is also a reenactor and writer. --Мит Сколов (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No offense, but I did not find information that Alan Cameron does not have a Ph.D.; but if this is the case, he definitely has some kind of scientific degree, otherwise how would he teach. Emenrigen (talk) 18:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm happy to help you: "...Without ever needing to complete a Phd, a point of considerable amusement and pride, Alan took up teaching positions in Glasgow and London before joining the Columbia faculty in 1977; he remained in the department until his retirement in 2008." [33] --Мит Сколов (talk) 18:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  И как будто бы в вузах не преподают без степеней, см. хотя бы ru:Старший_преподаватель. --Мит Сколов (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I found another source, which, it seems to me, Noraskulk will appreciate, and which helps to understand who Klim Zhukov is. See p. 155. And there it is also confirmed that Zhukov has the education of a historian. --Мит Сколов (talk) 18:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that you are deliberately not compromising and trying to piss me off.Emenrigen (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I understood correctly. What have I done wrong?

Мит Сколов (talk) has given you a cup of coffee, for taking the time to weather a dispute. Thanks for staying calm and civil! Coffee promotes WikiLove and hopefully this has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a coffee, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or someone putting up with some stick at this time. Enjoy!

Spread the lovely, warm, bitter goodness of coffee by adding {{subst:WikiCoffee}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

--Мит Сколов (talk) 18:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you continue to claim that Klim Zhukov is allegedly a historian, then you must provide an authoritative source (I specifically gave a link to the Wikipedia rule) where this is directly stated. Otherwise I submit a request to the admins. Or do you really think your antics are funny? And you do not need to switch to Russian to prove your case.Emenrigen (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Let me tell you my story. I read books, and if some good author recommends another, I'll definitely take a look. So, for example, Sunil Amrith pointed me to Victor Lieberman. Some time ago I read Georgi Derluguian, where he recommended Zhukov (see how by the way... hint: as a military historian). I wrote about it in the Russian Wikipedia... look what happened ru:Википедия:Форум/Архив/Вниманию_участников/2022/08#Жуков,_Клим_Александрович. --Мит Сколов (talk) 19:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if the BBC calls Zhukov a historian, is that authoritative for you? [34] --Мит Сколов (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is the basis for this statement? Again, in the hint words of Klim Zhukov. That is, there are sources calling him a military historian, but there is no authoritative source confirming this. And repeat once again - what is the significance of Klim Zhukov as a blogger and science fiction writer for the English-language Wikipedia? Emenrigen (talk) 05:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See my answer above - 17:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC) --Мит Сколов (talk) 07:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Исторический социолог Г. М. Дерлугьян отметил следующее: «В устном формате с удовольствием и изумлением слушаю в интернете лекции военного историка из Питера Клима Александровича Жукова. У него и подавно всё „прикольно“, полно иронических речевых прибамбасов, однако в то же время профессионально»

And where does he recommend Klim Zhukov here? Derlugyan just laughed at him, besides, as I understand it, he is often called a "military historian" in the media (of course, not seriously) because he created such a recognizable image for himself. Good morning, by the way. Emenrigen (talk) 05:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi!.. What can you say about the words of Professor Vadim Dolgov: "Klim Zhukov - historian, also by his education"? [35] --Мит Сколов (talk) 07:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vadim Dolgov meant that Klim Zhukov studied at St. Petersburg State University but this does not make him an authoritative historian, and indeed a historian from an official point of view. Emenrigen (talk) 07:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What can you say about Dr. Yuri Bohan's characterization of Zhukov as a "Russian researcher"? See p. 127 --Мит Сколов (talk) 07:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Norasulk said: We need a source confirming that all these people have the right to refer to him as an authoritative historian. Emenrigen (talk) 07:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, let's wait for @Noraskulk --Мит Сколов (talk) 08:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have been given the floor, I will decide to sum up the preliminary results. Noraskulk (talk) 14:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

• Emenrigen, I give you a 100% guarantee that this article will remain, and in the form in which it exists now. I agreed with Мит Сколов that the available sources are indeed notable, and there are plenty of them to preserve the article. If you agree with me, I remind you that according to Wikipedia rules, the nominator has the right to withdraw the nomination for deletion himself. Noraskulk (talk) 14:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.