The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus. CitiCat ♫ 02:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In-universe, a search on Google for Talyn and Farscape finds oodles of fan pages, but nothing to establish notability. These ships are characters, a feature of Farscape, but I see nothing of substance. Fans of the show may come in droves to defend the page, but without citations giving us something to hang our hats on, it should be deleted. SolidPlaid 04:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A character on the show, and a significant aspect of the series. Are you planning on AfD'ing all characters from the show? If not, then I don't see why this one should be singled out. The article has issues, yes, but AfD is not cleanup. PC78 12:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not planning on AfDing all the characters on the show. Why are you abstaining from the other Farscape AfD debates? If you know in your heart that they deserve deletion or retention, say so. SolidPlaid 05:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Look again, and you'll see that I've already given my opinion on all the others. If I've inadvertently missed some, then please let me know and I'll post a comment there too. I believe the WP:OSTRICH comment below relates to a concern that you are unfamiliar with the series and haven't taken the time to properly assess the importance of these subjects, not an accusation of bad faith as such. Talyn and Moya are characters, not just ships, so I say again - I don't see why these two should be singled out. PC78 13:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, because they are computer generated. Because they are like the Tin Man on Star Trek TNG. Because I couldn't find any independent critical analysis of them on the internet. SolidPlaid 03:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moya appeared in almost every episode. Talyn appeared throughout most of seasons 2 and 3. They really aren't comparable to a single episode character from Star Trek. PC78 10:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant by saying Moya is like Tin Man is that the idea is a rip of Tin Man. SolidPlaid 17:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What's that got to do with AfD? Besides, I'm fairly certain that Tin Man wasn't an original concept. PC78 18:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See, what happened was I discovered this giant collection of non-notable articles, and decided to nominate some of them for deletion. I knew that people would really go to bat for the characters, so I nominated junk like Docking web. The problem is that to me, a person who does not watch the show, all the articles looked like junk, more precisely, like citation-free junk. So I nominated things, and the upshot is that most of what I nominated will be deleted. Also, I hope that this debate will galvanize fans to fix up the articles that remain, so that they won't get nominated for deletion. May I point out again that no out-universe citations have appeared on the page? SolidPlaid 22:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
May I point out again that blatant cleanup issues are no reason for AfD? My problem is that your nominations seem a little indiscriminate - yes, some of the articles are trivial rubbish, but other like this are really necessary. You keep pointing out that these articles lack citations, but have you really put any effort into finding out whether or not sources exist? If you're planning on nominating more articles, I hope you show a little more care and consideration for a subject you freely admit you know nothing about. PC78 14:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This not a blatant cleanup issue, I did put in effort. I will keep nominating articles, and since fan-created articles are so poorly written, it is likely that I will nominate articles that people really want, as opposed to the ones they only kind of want. Farscape fans should emulate the response of the Star Trek fans when I put a merge tag on Gomtuu (Tin Man). They were like, "kill it." Farscape fans should start trimming all the non-notable articles they can find, right now, and put the citations on the articles that they think can survive. SolidPlaid 14:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it's a blatant cleanup issue! These articles need referencing, rewriting or merging, not deletion. What effort have you put in? You admit to not being familiar with the show, so what's your interest here? Regarding Gomtuu, you only had a single reply to your merge request, and obviously Star Trek has a significantly larger fanbase. I want to assume good faith with you, but your rampant and indiscriminate AfDing and prodding of Farscape related articles suggests that you're trying to make a WP:POINT. A lot of work needs to be done on a lot of content here, and things aren't just going to happen overnight. It's not your place to make demands on other editors. PC78 01:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And yet no one has put DHowell's citations on the actual page. Why aren't you and other people who care about this topic willing to add those citations? Are you trying to make some sort of point? Here's the upshot; the article still is written in-universe and has no out-universe citations showing notability. A cynic might propose it for AfD again, in about three months, at which time it would be much less likely to survive if left in its present form. SolidPlaid 06:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What am I supposed to do, go out and buy the books just so I can rescue an article from AfD? Don't be absurd. (And thankfully it looks like this one's a keeper, anyway.) It's a cleanup issue; tag the article for cleanup and raise your concerns on the talk page - don't just bring it straight to AfD, especially when you don't have a clue regarding the subject. Things just don't happen around here according to your schedule. PC78 09:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a library, then? I have a clue, which is that Farscape has way too many articles for the number and quality of citations available. SolidPlaid 18:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If Tin Man was not original, then derivatives of Tin Man are even less original. SolidPlaid 22:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This really is irrelevant. PC78 14:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as non-notable fictional gizmo. Notability is not inherited, unless demonstrated by independent secondary sources. --Gavin Collins 12:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Recurring character (yes, character) in a major television series; series and character satisfy notability requirements. Looking at this and the Moya nomination, I get the feeling WP:OSTRICH regarding this series might be a factor. Not implying every Farscape-related article nominated today deserve to be kept, but this one and the Moya one certainly do. 23skidoo 18:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm not sure I know what WP:OSTRICH means, but I am nominating in good faith. It looks like Moya and Talyn are getting many "votes" to retain, but the arguments are repetitive. I still don't see one single citation appearing on the page itself. Rhetorically, I'll ask again, "Why can't citations be found?" SolidPlaid 05:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who says citations can't be found? As I said above, AfD isn't cleanup, and there are various cleanup tags you can add to this article, none of which were present prior to this discussion. PC78 14:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I looked for citations, found nothing beyond fan-generated in-universe descriptions. This is nothing like Harry Potter, where one can find thoughtful analysis on .edu websites. There is a book, Investigating Farscape: Uncharted Territories of Sex and Science Fiction (Investigating Cult TV) that might rise to the level of a good source. I don't own it. SolidPlaid 03:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Trim and mergetoSpaceships on Farscape with Moya, Command Carrier, Prowler (Farscape), Farscape One and maybe some others. This issue should really have been addressed in a talkpage first. {{mergeto}} also exists for a reason. Per WP:FICT, Non-notable information should be deleted only when all other options have been exhausted. Going directly to AfD was IMO too bold. – sgeurekat•c 07:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. What sort of citation could you possibly need anyway? Misterandersen 20:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed this question extensively. It needs citations that don't talk about it in-universe. Even something as simple as "voted second favorite computer-generated sf character by the readers of TVguide" would do. SolidPlaid 06:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We have only your word for it, and the page itself still has not been updated with these or any citations. SolidPlaid 22:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
