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Category:Croat Roman Catholic clergy from Bosnia and Herzegovina
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Nominator's rationale: Ethnicization of entire tree of Category:Catholic clergy of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It's a one editor's attempt to squeeze ethnic labels onto categories regarding one of the religious communities of the country. It should be checked if this issue was already dealt with once before. Note that other two communities (Orthodox and Islamic) are categorized only with their respective denomination labels not with their eventual ethnicities. ౪ Santa ౪99°16:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I find it unhelpful that you have removed the parent categories. Now I can't easily see what the creator was trying to do, and whether it might be better to upmerge instead of delete. NLeeuw (talk) 17:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Croat Christian clergy from Bosnia and Herzegovina
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Nominator's rationale: Ethnicization of entire tree of Category:Catholic clergy of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It's a one editor's attempt to squeeze ethnic labels onto categories regarding one of the religious communities of the country. It should be checked if this issue was already dealt with once before. Note that other two communities (Orthodox and Islamic) are categorized only with their respective denomination labels not with their eventual ethnicities. ౪ Santa ౪99°16:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I find it unhelpful that you have removed the parent categories. Now I can't easily see what the creator was trying to do, and whether it might be better to upmerge instead of delete. NLeeuw (talk) 17:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Croat Greek Catholic clergy from Bosnia and Herzegovina
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Nominator's rationale: Ethnicization of entire tree of Category:Catholic clergy of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It's a one editor's attempt to squeeze ethnic labels onto categories regarding one of the religious communities of the country. It should be checked if this issue was already delt with once before. Note that other two communities (Orthodox and Islamic) are categorized only with their respective denomination labels not with their eventual ethnicities. ౪ Santa ౪99°16:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I find it unhelpful that you have removed the parent categories. Now I can't easily see what the creator was trying to do, and whether it might be better to upmerge instead of delete. NLeeuw (talk) 17:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: I'm not really sure what to do with this category name, because it isn't particularly helpful/descriptive. Is this painters from after 1948 who painted the "holy land" or is it painters of what the "holy land" looked like after 1948. Mason (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Thoughts on deletion/merging? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep' The nomination seems confused, perhaps fatally - the category is "PRE-1948" so it is not for "painters from after 1948 who painted the "holy land" or is it painters of what the "holy land" looked like after 1948." In the 19th-century context "Holy Land" is certainly the term that would have been used by the artists and their publics, & I don't think it is POV. If people want to delete it on those grounds they should think of alternatives, as it seems a valid category. Rather than being "an extremely narrow theme", it saw a big boom in the 19th century, partly as a branch of Orientalist painting. The category misses the most famous people, at least in the Anglosphere - where are William Holman Hunt, Edward Lear, James Tissot and many others? Johnbod (talk) 15:42, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see only one of the 5 described as "Orientalist" (and Marcocapelle just categorised then as such). James Tissot is indeed a name I recognise as painting events from the Hebrew Bible, though not necessarily "the Holy Land". E.g. File:Tissot The Women of Midian Led Captive by the Hebrews.jpg supposedly took place in southern Transjordan in what is now Saudi Arabia.
Moreover, a lot of them were apparently Jewish, while "Holy Land" is a Christian term. It's really difficult to shape a category around such a vague concept with the people currently and proposed to be in there.
I should add that "Holy Land" can be an appropriate term if the subject in question is entirely Christian, for, by and about Christians, e.g. Recovery of the Holy Land. No other phrase will describe that late medieval Christian literary genre that aptly. But for these painters...? I'm not convinced. NLeeuw (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's highly unclear where the events of Numbers 31 took place (if anwhere), but it seems more likely to be in modern Israel or Jordan than Saudi. In any case, Tissot spent time in Palestine to get his settings right, without I think getting as far as modern Saudi. I don't think that a century ago "Holy Land" was exclusively a Christian term - it would be rather ironic if it was. Johnbod (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Arabic Wikipedia ar:الأراضي المقدسة says: The Holy Land is a term used in the Christian and Jewish religions to refer to the holy places in Palestine, especially Jerusalem , Bethlehem, and Nazareth...
Hebrew Wikipedia he:ארץ הקודש says: Jews usually refer to the Land of Israel as the "Holy Land".[Source needed] However, the Bible refers to it explicitly as "holy land" in only one passage, the book of Zechariah, chapter 2, verse 16.
It doesn't seem like it is very common (at least not in the arguably main languages used by the most relevant religions and populations) to use the term "Holy Land" in Judaism or Islam. They may regard the land as sacred in some way, but calling it "Holy Land", capital H capital L, seems very much a Christian practice.
At any rate, if 19th-century and early 20th-century Orientalist is our scope, why not use the term Levant instead? It fits the period well, is broader than just Palesrael, and is not as politically and religiously charged. NLeeuw (talk) 01:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A fine piece of OR, & reliance on primary sources! You contradict your own research superbly there! "Jews usually refer to the Land of Israel as the "Holy Land"" and you conclude "It doesn't seem like it is very common (at least not in the arguably main languages used by the most relevant religions and populations) to use the term "Holy Land" in Judaism or Islam. They may regard the land as sacred in some way, but calling it "Holy Land", capital H capital L, seems very much a Christian practice." Wonderful! "Palestine" (much less controversial in this period, & the official name for some of it) would be better than "Levant". I don't mind splitting off the 2-3 proto-Israeli figures, who I agree are rather different. Johnbod (talk) 02:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well no, I'm not claiming this is in-depth research lol. Let's try something a bit more empirical:
Google Books search: landscape "orientalist paintings" "holy land": 2.110 results
Google Books search: landscape "orientalist paintings" "levant": 1.950 results
Google Scholar search: landscape "orientalist paintings" "holy land": 207 results
Google Scholar search: landscape "orientalist paintings" "levant": 223 results
Neither "holy land" or "levant" is particularly likely to be part of the title. Painting the Holy Land in the Nineteenth Century (1997) and Visions of the East: Influence of the Levant on the Italian Renaissance (2015) are two rare exceptions to this rule.
David Roberts is often mentioned, but more frequently with "Palestine" than with "Holy Land". His bio David Roberts (painter) uses the term "Holy Land" no fewer than 12 times, though usually in conjuction with other 'countries' around it: his travelogue The Holy Land, Syria, Idumea, Arabia, Egypt, and Nubia comprises about half of those mentions.
Gustav Bauernfeind (not yet in this category) is more usually associated with "Levant"; in fact, his bio has Gustav Bauernfeind#Painting the Levant, mentioning 'the Levant, the Orient, Ottoman Palestine, Jerusalem, Lebanon, Syria, the Holy Land'. Seems to me that Levant is the broadest, most encompassing and inclusive term of the two (or three if we count 'Palestine'). As it is broader, it could also include paintings of certain biblical narratives that are set in Transjordan (such as the one of Tissot referenced above), which may or may not be included under the term "Holy Land". It might be a good idea to add a catdesc that gives a description of what we mean by 'Levant', and the term 'Holy Land' does seem fitting there (amongst the other regions/countries I mention in this comment) instead of in the catname itself. Maybe that's an acceptable compromise? NLeeuw (talk) 13:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Something like catname: Category:Orientalist painters of the Levant
It might (moving out the proto-Israelis), but I don't understand why people keep talking about "landscape" painters/paintings. Some, like Lear and Roberts, mostly were, but others, like Hunt and Tissot, concentrated on history paintings of Biblical narrative subjects, obviously many with landscape backgrounds. I'd still prefer Palestine to Levant. But I think it is important that we explicitly restrict the category to those who had actually spent time in the area, rather than working things up in Europe. Johnbod (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Palestine" could work as an alternative, certainly for the British mandate period. Johnbod also preferred Palestine over Levant. For me RenametoCategory:Painters of pre-1948 Palestine is a second choice (my primary choice remains Upmerging, see above). This could work as a compromise. NLeeuw (talk) 23:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I am still not sure if this is about painters from "Holly Land" or painters of the "Holly Land", where the "Holly Land" is the label for a theme not a country or state, and I am reading through this discussion for the second time?--౪ Santa ౪99°14:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Polish social activists of the Prussian partition
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Also I'm not too sure about it but maybe rename to "Pro-Palestinian activists". Any other suggestion would be helpful; this one seems rather vague. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support rename to "Pro-Palestinian activists", if only because that new name would be shorter and simpler, yet also straight to the point. AHI-3000 (talk) 15:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll wait for some consensus here before I proceed with the subcategories. Honestly, going through them, I don't think any of these people in any of these categories were checked to see if they actually were activists for Palestinian solidarity, particularly given a number of these aren't pro-Palestinian but rather anti-Israeli. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer keeping this category, I should add, since there is a big Palestinian movement and activists who are pro-Palestinian. I just think we should be careful who to put in. Some of these "pro-Palestinian" people aren't pro-Palestinian at all. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support doing something, but mixed on the alternative rename. I think that the "Pro-Palestinian activists" are indeed a more specific subgroup that are definitely nested within Anti-racist activists. Perhaps splitting or nesting/reorganizing to acknowledge that there are also activists for Palestinian civil rights etc. idk 🤷 It's really complicated.Mason (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Smasongarrison, it is quite complicated, you're right. I'm not too sure about myself but, IMO and as you have said yourself, "Pro-Palestinian" is less vague and more definable than "Activists for Palestinian solidarity". Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point. (To be clear, I'm not opposed to the rename if that's were consensus goes. ) I've started cleaning up the ethnic/religious intersections with the group in the hope that I'll have some inspiration. Mason (talk) 19:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: No clear consensus on rename. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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They do sound a bit like containercats, but if we treat them like that, it forces us to either upmerge articles, or diffuse articles and create small cats, for which we would need to upmerge them again, but two levels. Hence a bit of pragmatism seems called for until we've got more options. NLeeuw (talk) 06:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: This is a rather small and narrow category with no real-life equivalent. We don't need a hyperspecific category for literally every job. Edit: Actually it should probably just be deleted, when you remove Chef from South Park, who is already under "Fictional chefs", there is nothing pertinent here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: Yet another WP:NARROWCAT pointless category. This is such a narrow intersection (mythical + gender + royalty) that a category is not necessary. I don't believe it should be merged to "fictional" as myth and fiction are separate. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nom is right that having categories with just 2 subcategories isn't very useful for navigation, but we should upmerge to all parents. NLeeuw (talk) 06:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fiction may overlap with mythology in some cases but the two are distinct concepts. Mythology can also contain embellished or rumored versions of real events. The Bible has mythological elements, but most would not agree it is a pure "work of fiction". ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms economists
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Merge, redundant category layer with only three subcategories. I also wonder whether we should keep two of the three subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose - early modern age in Lithuania according to my knowledge starts a century before 1569 (if we take 1453 as the starting year of early modern age). Seems a bit much to make out those to be identical.--+JMJ+ (talk) 22:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Around 1500 is most often mentioned as the start of the early modern age and articles about the period between 1500 and 1569 can still be put in the early modern category. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Marco. "1453" is a bit arbitrary, as it takes the fall of Constantinople as the measure of world history, instead of a rather minor event that was bound to happen to a Byzantine Empire in terminal decay for centuries. "1500" may also be arbitrary as a random round number, but at least it does not assign an arbitrary value of significance to any event, and it has been a commonly used convention in historiography. For Lithuania, of course, 1569 is much more significant, but given that we've already got 2 categories and it doesn't make sense to create separate categories for 1500 to 1568, and 1796 to 1799. NLeeuw (talk) 06:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Merge or reverse merge, too little content for two categories. Technical note, if it is going to be a downmerge then parent categories have to be added to the target manually. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Many siblings contain (just) activists, which is much more defining than membership. We might rename and purge this one as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Thoughts on renaming and purging? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose given that both nominee and target are very large categories, and no navigational value seems to be served by throwing them together. NLeeuw (talk) 19:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: Category hardly has any entries, with Megalovania being more of a theme song than "sung by the voice actor", of which there is none. The current category members could be merged to parent categories if they aren't in them already. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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