The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article is a bit out of date, and can use a lick of paint meet the GA standards
Quite a few 2005-2010 stats (higher education)
I'm starting to work on these, especially in the economy, education, and demographics section. Could take a little time though, so please bear with me. Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
one failed verification tag
Looks like two things: 1) a typo where the page reference said 24 when it was supposed to say 124, but the link in the ref points to the right page. I updated the ref and confirmed the source. Source says ...the legislature was migratory for many years—Albany, Poughkeepsie, Kingston, and New York having about equal division of the honors. And 2) someone added Hurley, which isn't mentioned in the ref. I looked it up and it sounds like it acted as temporary capital of the colony in 1777 after the burning of Kingston led the legislature to flee, but the phrasing of the sentence is "statehood till 1797" (not arbitrarily, that's the point of the paragraph) and New York didn't become a state until 1788. Likely a proud Hurley or Ulster County resident added this tidbit to ensure the list is "complete", but it's not really meant to be complete over the history of the state and colony, just the state. So I removed Hurley. Can we remove the failed ver tag? Matt Wade17:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The two panoramic skyline images should be stacked.
I think I intended the historical one to be at the end of 1800 to 1942 section (it matches the time frame better), which is meant to add to the prose by showing the dense neighborhoods, many of which would later be demolished for the Empire State Plaza and other urban renewal projects (covered as major aspects of the next section). The other was the introductory photo to an H1 section called Cityscape, which has since been H2'ed. So the intent was for the photos to be relevant in the distinct sections they're in, not to be stacked to show a one-on-the-other difference in time. Based on that rationale, do you still see the need to stack them? They don't take up that much vertical space themselves. Unless there's a new WP: out there that requires this (which could very well be the case!). Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Original topographic map that was in Geography section
There are three maps in the infobox. Is the fourth map in the geography section needed?
I agree that the current map in the Geography section is redundant to the ones in the infobox. My original graphic was a topographic map to show the area's physical geography (right). I'd like to bring it back or see if someone can source an upgraded one. IIRC, I had reached out to the author of that image because they were known for their excellent cartographic submissions for articles. The date on the image upload to Commons is around when I was going full-in on this article, which makes my leaky brain feel more confident on the source. The down side was that the image is pixelated somewhat. A higher-quality replacement would be good. But either way, I think this image should go back because it adds to the prose that's there. Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the two photos in the "festivals" section. Neither shows much of the city, and are close-ups of people. I looked for a wider image of the pride parade online, but no luck. As for the Tulip Festival, may I suggest the image posted here replace it (there are several others on the Commons).
Big picture: I can't remember when these photos were added, but it was after the GA/FA reviews of Sep 2010. My thoughts had always been that a festival isn't a festival without people and culture. And photos included in a GA/FA need to be as good if not better than the surrounding prose. That may not be a universal opinion, but it's something I took away from my Featured Pictures days. The detail, then, in my mind, meant that the human element was the priority. And no better photos show off humanity than candid, detailed shots of people doing things. I think our views on what's expected in these instances are different and you're looking for justification that these photos happened in Albany at all because they could be anywhere. I think that comes down to a difference in philosophy given the sometimes limited ability to get great photos for our articles? Like, I'd love a drone shot of an exciting parade float coming down Lark Street with identifiable buildings in the background, but still with the people on the float being prioritized in the shot. But I don't see anything like that online that could be used (to your point) and without quality composition, lighting, colors on a wide shot, the detailed human shot is my preference. Some other thoughts on each photo, below. Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tulip Fest photo: I took the tulip fest photo and while I admit I wish there were more tulips in said photo, I was going for the candid photo of a person enjoying the sights of the festival. If you're strong on the concept of needing evidence we're in the place it says, I'd suggest this photo of the King Fountain (unique to Albany) or this photo showing the Agency building in the background (unique to Albany). The photo you suggested is, yes, a photo of lots of tulips, but the composition, color, and overall quality isn't that which I'd expect in a GA. I would oppose the use of that photo. Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pride photo: Personally I think this is a great photo and shows the diversity of the population with candid views of individuals showing various emotions, surrounded by color and in front of a typical historic townhouse in Center Square. Generally you don't get this level of artistry on Wikis due to photos like this usually being taken by professionals or news media, who aren't willing to part with their copyright. (I didn't take this photo.) Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Other photos: In re-reading the article, the photo of the fireworks at the Plaza in the Nightlife and entertainment section is out of place. Not sure why I put it there originally. That's not really "nightlife", plus the event is referenced explicitly in the Festivals section. We could always move that there and replace one of the two photos mentioned above (then get something appropriate for the Nightlife section). Matt Wade21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the education section, is this sentence necessary: "Although considered by the state to be one of the lowest-achieving high schools in New York, Albany High was listed as the nation's 976th best high school in a 2010 Newsweek/Washington Post report." Being 976th isn't really notable, and the data is 13 years old.
I don't see much use for this level of zoom on the Plaza buildings. The GA/FA review version of the article had this photo showing construction of the Plaza, which was a major historic event of the 20th century (a literal out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new turning point). I'm not sure why it was removed and I felt it's a very valuable addition since it was something from that time period yet available from the copyright perspective. We don't want to over-represent the Plaza, so when we do show it, we need to make sure it's relevant and important to the context, yes, but the article as a whole, as well. Matt Wade21:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Magnolia, thanks for working on the article! I agree that the two skyline images would bettter be stacked, and the fourth map can be deleted. No opinion on festivals. That education sentence is not clear and outdated, so can be removed. The museums section already has a picture of a buildingin the same style, so the Flickr photo isn't needed really. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 07:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! As the main author back then and the GA nominator, I appreciate getting the heads up on the review. I'm going to take a read through and toss in some responses and other comments. You'll notice I don't edit much anymore (though I do use regularly), but I'm definitely interested in sprucing this up to keep the status. I'll be sure to respond to specific comments (especially if there is past context on the "why") and add my own. There are definitely some improvements I could see being applied already. Matt Wade17:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
Proposed removal of 1793 fire paragraph: This paragraph in the British Occupation to 1800 section seems unnecessarily detailed. If the aim is to point out that slavery was in place in New York in the 1790s, I'm fine saying that a major fire impacted a portion of the city, with enslaved people being the suspects. Otherwise, I suggest its complete removal. On November 17, 1793, a large fire broke out, destroying 26 homes on Broadway, Maiden Lane, James Street, and State Street. The fire originated at a stable belonging to Leonard Gansevoort and was suspected to be arson set by enslaved people. Three were arrested and charged with arson: Pompey, a man enslaved by Matthew Visscher; Dinah, a 14-year-old girl enslaved by Volkert P. Douw; and Bet, a 12-year-old girl enslaved by Philip S. Van Rensselaer. On January 6, 1794, the three were tried and sentenced to death. For reasons unknown, Governor George Clinton issued a temporary stay of execution, but Dinah and Bet were executed by hanging on March 14, and Pompey on April 11, 1794.
Proposed removal of Lincoln funeral stop: I propose removing the sentence about and photo of Lincoln's casket visiting Albany following his assassination in the 1800-1942 section. Such a detail is not relevant to the general progression of culture and history in Albany and is more a piece of trivia. If anything, I think the photo has to go. That section talks a lot about banking and railroads, but has no photos of either. I could likely find a photo of one of those topics to expand upon the prose.
Thoughts on neighborhood section removal? The GA/FA review version of the article had a reasonably detailed (one can argue too detailed) section on neighborhoods of the city. The current Neighborhoods section is so bad that it might as well not exist. I feel this added a lot of value and insights into the culture of the city in a way that was not covered elsewhere. Would you all be agreeable to bringing back this section? There is a dedicated article on the topic, which further supports inclusion if the article is notable enough to exist.
With this essentially stalled for a month, and nobody outright calling for a delist, I'd like to close this as a keep, but I see three citation needed tags and two tags indicating verification issues. If those aren't addressed soon, I'd be inclined to close as delist. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
