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Anyone want to check the actual numbers of the Osage Nation?
Lead:The tribe has about 16,000 members.
Further down In the 21st century, the federally recognized Osage Nation has approximately 20,000 enrolled members Doug Wellertalk11:20, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. Many of the people this person has removed are notable and have many sources in their respective article. I don't know what exactly their issue is with it. They even removed highly notable figures like Deb Haaland, Tecumseh, Sequoyah, and many more notable and easily verifiably Native figures. PersusjCP (talk) 18:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
PersusjCP, my concern is not about the notability of these people but rather the verifiability of their belongingness to the group. Adding unsourced entries to such lists isn't a healthy practice. There is always a strong possibility that some editors put wrong entries. As such lists become exceedingly large with unsourced entries, it becomes more difficult to scrutinize them. I am adding unsourced section templates for now. Dympies (talk) 00:59, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Should definitely be sourced WP:LISTVERIFY..... but that said it shouldn't be hard to transfer over some sources from main articles over blanking. Moxy-03:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
In 2009, the tribe filed for federal restoration. On 25 July 2013 a hearing was held in San Jose, California in the federal court of U.S. District Court Judge Edward Davila. The claim was denied citing that the statute of limitations was exceeded. John Trippo family (talk) 03:54, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Indigenous tattooing
Hi all, I'm considering splitting History of tattooing into a separate article on indigenous and traditional tattooing practices. Given the size of the article, it doesn't feel very readable and I think having a separate page would allow people to expand on the contemporary practices of these traditions. I'm alerting some of the WikiProjects attached to the article; please let me know if you have any concerns or objections to this idea :) ForsythiaJo (talk) 03:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
This isn't exactly related to editing, but I was curious: what exactly is the official name of a federally-recognized tribe? For example: I was editing Puyallup Tribe of Indians and, as I understood Puyallup Tribe of Indians to be their official name, changed it at List of federally recognized tribes in the contiguous United States and List of federally recognized tribes by state. I was informed by @Yuchitown that in fact, Puyallup Tribe of the Puyallup Reservation is the name listed on the Federal Registrar, which when I checked to confirm, was true. However, the name used in their constitution is "Puyallup Tribe of Indians," and their reservation is the "Puyallup Indian Reservation" (They also use Puyallup Tribe of the State of Washington once in the name of the constitution). This naturally brings me to the question, what exactly is the "official" name?
In regards to the Puyallup Tribe, the preamble of their constitution states: "We the Indians of the Puyallup Tribe of the Puyallup Reservation of the State of Washington, in order to establish a legal tribal organization and secure certain privileges and powers offered to us by the Indian Reorganization Act of June 18, 1934, do hereby form an authorized tribal council, and ordain and establish this constitution and bylaws as a guide to its deliberations." This is what seems like the origin of the Federal Registrar's name. However, elsewhere in the constitution, the legal entity established by the constitution is called the "Puyallup Tribe of Indians" in full and "Puyallup Tribe" for short. This naming scheme is also used on their website, official communiques, seal, and more. I noticed a similar pattern in a few other constitutions I looked at.
To me, it seems like the preamble is more of an opening clause (who would've thought) whereas the actual articles define the name of the legal entity and the reservation themselves. I'm not a treaty lawyer so I don't really have any formal knowledge about this, anyways. I'm of course not looking to argue since I understand the reason for having the list match the federal registrar, and I think that makes sense, but just for determining the "official" name of a tribe/what to use in articles in the future, I wanted to bring this up for other peoples' opinions/thoughts, and if I am correct in my understanding. Also, why might the Federal Registrar differ so significantly and with so many cases? I assume the tribes themselves submitted that name at one point? Naming like this seems to be a phenomenon in the US, I mean, look at the US Constitution where there is also not an "official" name of the country and, to this day, United States and United States of America are used fairly interchangeably. PersusjCP (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:COMMON NAME is usually used instead of the official name, if they are different. Like Minneapolis is officially "City of Minneapolis" but that's not the article title. I would say go with the common name and list out the "legal names" somewhere else in the article. (Even the article title United States isn't the more exact "United States of America"). oncamera (talk page)06:49, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
The list of federally recognized tribes always goes verbatim by what the current year’s Federal Registrar says, with redirects pointing to the article. Like oncamera says, articles go by common name. Yuchitown (talk) 17:52, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
Here is a brief summary of what is happening in Wikipedia right now:
In the last few years (3-4 years) the WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, which was originally created to improve the quality and coverage of native issues and native articles on wikipedia, has been hijacked by a small number of users with an extremist agenda. They have been working diligently over the last few years to change the definition of both what it means to be an Indigenous American and even what it means to be state and federally recognized.
The four or five key players (Mainly Editor Yuchitown, Bohemian Baltimore, ARoseWolf, (now retired editor CorbieVreccan, Netherzone and Oncamera) who are part of the “Native American Articles Improvement Project” started implementing these changes slowly, but they started pursuing their goals aggressively after November 2023, when state-recognized tribes retained their voting rights in NCAI. Essentially, after the movement to delegitimize state-recognized tribes failed officially, the key players doubled down on altering and controlling the flow of information about Native Americans through Wikipedia.
The talk page of Lily Gladstone’s article has a relevant discussion here. Initially, the leaders of the WikiProject removed any reference to her being a “Native American Actress” and instead had her as “Self-identifying as Blackfoot” and “Self-identifying as Nez Perce” because her blood quantum was too low to be enrolled in either tribe.
[...]
The more people and tribes make complaints the more likely it is that this will work and we can rid ourselves of these monsters.
Some of the tribes I have spoken to are taking legal action against these editors. Any groups affected by their policies should also reach out to the news to make knowledge of this more widespread.
Thank you
- quoted with permission from an email sent by an associate of my tribe. Message me for their email address if you’d like to reach out to them.
@Oncamera, and others here, thank you for notifying me that I was mentioned in this person's Tumblr post. I don't recall ever joining something called the “Native American Articles Improvement Project”, is that even a thing? The only edit I made on Lily Gladstone was to revert a IP block evasion, and one edit on the talk page regarding overlinking. In relation to IPNA, mainly I create articles on contemporary Native American artists as well as some on historic NA arts like Pueblo pottery. I'm not mentioned at all in the Google Doc, nor do I think I should be. I'm wondering why the Tumblr author drew me into this. Netherzone (talk) 14:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I don't think any of us should be mentioned in their article. If they want federal recognition, they can take it up with the government, not blaming Wikipedia articles/smearing editors for following the rules of this site. oncamera (talk page)14:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Those are both either the same person as or meatpuppets of TelGonzie, whose former account was active in this discussion. COISPA promoting and pushing POV that they couldn't substantiate with published, secondary sources; several of their accounts were indefinitely blocked but many more weren't. They'll definitely be back. Yuchitown (talk) 17:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
To my knowledge there is not a “Native American Articles Improvement Project” but it sounds like a good idea for a taskforce if the community does that anymore. It doesn't bother me being mentioned. I'm more concerned with the mischaracterizations made. I've never edited most of the articles they mention beyond reversion of clear violations of content policy and calling for discussion rather than edit warring. When those discussions are had I weigh what is being said diligently and thoroughly and make my own determination. I do not automatically side with any position no matter who is involved. I've always honored consensus even if I disagreed. No one here knows how I really feel about subjects because I never push for that. I understand NPOV well enough after a few years of editing and being involved in discussions. The intent is to always collaborate civilly. We've had our disagreements at times, all of us. I don't know how @Pingnova is involved or why they would seemingly encourage canvassing off-wiki to damage the encyclopedia by forcing content that is not reliably sourced and goes against the very tenets of the project. I hope they will respond to the ping as I want to assume good faith because that's how we handle on-wiki disputes. I have never had a specific quarrel with them that I recall. --ARoseWolf14:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Thank you all here for your support. I am very aware that there are fake tribes out there. But Herring Pond is NOT one of them. The saddest part here is that these people who have chosen to violate and murder our history's have done little to no research on the actual Herring Pond (Patuxet) people. We have our genealogy complete, have retained and continue to live on our original reservation lands and have never ceased or ceded our rights to the land, nor have we been removed. I myself have lived on my homelands all my life and grew up in Plymouth - Cedarville raised by an elder of my Tribe the only child in the district with a Herring smoking shed in my back yard.
Let's not confuse our autonomy with extinction.
We've been targeted, all but removed from the Wampanoag page almost completly by people pushing their own agenda and...nowhere does Plymouth and Wampanoag history exist WITHOUT the Herring Pond Tribe! That's a FACT!
Thank you to all of those who have stepped up to fight back and help fix this mess. We'd honestly lost hope and had to just remember that WIKI is not a reliable source as it is clear that any colonized mind can edit and spread misinformation in an attempt to erase an entire community from history.
Well our page was created without our knowing and immediately we were named a "cultural heritage group" and a non-profit that "claims" Wampanoag descendancy. There is no claim it's a fact! Might I add nonprofit status was imposed upon Tribal nations in the 90s because we didn't have our federal recognition yet. So although they don't say it it's quite evident that that's what the editors are alluding to.
The article isn't alluding to anything, it is just stating information based on sources. Instead of insulting Wikipedia editors, as the Chairwoman of your tribe, maybe go submit your evidence as part of the petition for federal acknowledgment and then the article can be updated once that is resolved. oncamera (talk page)13:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
We've tried only to be ignored until recently...there has been some postive and respectful edits completed in the past few weeks...thanks to those people. We have also submitted and have a large collection of "evidence" that we've submitted that is being updated.
Unfortunately we cannot edit our own content. So we can only hope that others like those kind people trying to add the "evidence" are doing. But anyhow let's hope this bullying stops and we can support one another like our ancestors did. Have a great day Goldendragonfly77 (talk) 13:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
This conversation should probably take place on Talk:Herring Pond Wampanoag Tribe but if anything there is genuinely factually incorrect, point it out on the talk page. And if there are secondary, published sources (unlike the census, a self-reported primary source) you want to recommend, you can always post those there as well. Yuchitown (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
Goldendragonfly77, we have been attacked, threatened with legal action, and had misinformation/false claims spread against us for following Wikipedia policy so you'll have to forgive me but what support for your plight I might have given is somewhat diminished. I certainly am not a part of any conspiracy against any tribe or organization. I have been here long enough to know that none of the editors mentioned are part of a conspiracy or plot against any tribe. The only bullying that is happening right now on Wikipedia is coming from outside this community.
I understand the motive but the means to get ones way is misguided. Off-wiki blog's can be written on anything. Off-wiki opinion pieces can be published attacking anyone. But that won't work on the encyclopedia. Activism has no place here when its means is to hurt people who are simply volunteering their time. It is very sad. Sad that people outside Wikipedia have resorted to making false statements about volunteers who are paid nothing and have followed all policies and guidelines to improve the encyclopedia. We can not control the fact that the federal government has only given certain tribes recognition. Likewise, we have no control over what reliable sources say or do not say about any tribe. We are bound by rules of inclusion that could lead to sanctions against us if not followed. This encyclopedia works off collaborative editing and consensus. We can not go against community consensus. --ARoseWolf15:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for looping me into this conversation. I don't have access to the Google Doc and haven't requested access, so I'm not entirely sure the scope of how I'm involved. Are my edits being criticized by this individual? If so, I'd more than happy to review anything I've written for clarity and accuracy. There were a few editing conflicts between me and @Yuchitown sometime last year, however, I believe we ultimately came to a middle ground in wording. Cori Bardsley (talk) 03:59, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
I guess they don't want WP:RS, WP:V to matter. According to their position we should just let any subject of an article on Wikipedia, whether person or organization, claim to be Native American with no evidence because the US federal government says it's too difficult to determine. If there is irrefutable and undeniable proof one would think with today's technology someone would have published it and we could easily link to that as a reliable source. State resolutions are not a binding agreement. They are more than welcome to try and get me blocked from editing these pages for simply holding every subject to the same basic Wikipedia policy in good faith and without edit warring. IAR can not apply to everything. --ARoseWolf12:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Maybe I should add that I have no opinion on the subject itself (ethnicity). I started this section to notify editors of the tumblr posting. I don't agree with the posting. Its tone is rather aggressive and accusatory, and if it had been posted on-wiki, it would clearly violate WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:LEGAL, and other policies and guidelines. In general, I think such campaigns do more harm than good. – Chrisahn (talk) 13:36, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Do you have thoughts on in-wiki responses? If anyone were actually paying attention, they would see that we all have our own diverse perspectives on subjects but are primarily trying to get POV/SPA users to comply with Wikipedia policy—mainly using secondary, published sources. Yuchitown (talk) 15:40, 23 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
IIRC, isn't the whole reason Lily Gladstone's lede didn't say she was Blackfeet because there were no reliable sources to say she was an enrolled member of any tribe, just that she was of Blackfeet/Nez Perce descent? I don't think anyone here thinks she's not Blackfeet ethnically/culturally, even if she isn't a citizen, right? It's just per MOS:CITIZEN, right? Which is why it was put in literally the next sentence? Also, I can't see the google doc for some reason so I don't know what else they are using as evidence. PersusjCP (talk) 19:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Here is the uploaded PDF on tiiny site (version downloaded at 6am on 2/23/2024). They demand Wikipedia ban us all for asking for reliable sources and questioning IP editors on their COI. Basically, we should be banned for following the rules of this site. oncamera (talk page)10:12, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
This is a pretty good conspiracy theory, with zero foundation in reality. The vagueness on which groups are actually state-recognized tribes, when they are affected by federal law (IACA), is a real-world problem facing agencies like IACB, HUD, etc. I can attest that I'm not a member of NCAI. Just because we independently pay attention to what's happening in Indian Country doesn't mean we are collectively orchestrating anything. In the early days of Wikipedia, many users got away with writing whatever they wanted on less trafficked articles, (prime example), but requiring citations has now become standard across the board. Yuchitown (talk) 16:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
Tara Miller is not a director and left the project before development started in 2019. They were the original artist on the original 2D protype PURITYdecay, but had no part in the development of the game that launched in 2023.
Meagan is the only director of the studio.
Kanienʼkehá꞉ka (Mohawk) artist Sa'dekaronhes Esquivel has been Lead Artist and Co-Creative Lead on the game from the start of 3D pre-development in 2020 until it's completion and launch in 2023.
Sorry for asking this way, no one on the team uses/edits Wiki. Thanks for your help on this! The team is really stoked for Hill Agency to have it's own wiki page! 135.23.42.71 (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Please, anyone else, watch and try to improve the Lipan Apache people article. There's actually a wealth of material about the historical ethnic group, most of whose descendants are part of the Mescalero Apache today. Yuchitown (talk) 15:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
Lakota mythology needs eyes on it. I just removed a blog source "Legends of America" that is being used on a lot of articles. From their "About" info on the blog: "Hi Y'all, Legends of America is comprised of just the two of us — Dave & Kathy, .... With an entrepreneurial dream, we launched Legends of America in 2003." Basically they exist to sell travel stuff and fake Native American trinkets from their two "Mom & Pop" online shops. There are two other expired sources that also seem like they might be blogs (?). I don't know enough about the subject to make improvements, so I'm bringing it here for other editors to examine. Netherzone (talk) 17:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Speaking of, the article for "Happy hunting ground" (which was linked in the Lakota mythology article) should probably be merged to some other article or outright deleted. It's several sentences about a poetic phrase used by settlers which, in the article, is described to possibly be completely invented by settlers. PersusjCP (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller, once I started clicking on the various links on the LOA website and seeing all the junk they sell, I was shocked it is used on so many articles across the encyclopedia. Thanks for bringing it up on RSN. Netherzone (talk) 20:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
I was able to find archived versions of the sources. Two more were poor quality blogs, "Living Myths" and "Gods Creations". The one remaining source, "Native American Mythology A to Z" published by Infobase Holdings, Inc., however that citation is only used for two paragraphs. The rest of the article is unsourced. I've added a maintenance tag that more sources are needed. Netherzone (talk) 21:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Marcel colomb first nation page really outa date adding some info but could use help
the code for wiki is so vastly overwelming never been able to fully wrap my head around it and keep getting yelled at over the years guna need help advice as everytime i wonder back somethings changed
i have images i can donate to mcfn page but am worried the system will just delete like everything ive ever put up on other articals i took acusing me of steeling my own stuff so confusing
couple people at the band put a call out localy for help with their wiki page there was an election in january and so it has the wrong cheif and councle and infact it has not been updated since 2020. internet has been very unstable till recently so no one realy accessed the web beyond email. the election was jan 30 2024 and it was their first proper vote to happen on their reserve vs in lynn lake
i have photos of election day and the cerimony i can donate to their page.
added their phone fax and mailing adress
updated inacurate information of telphone and internet services in the regon was 14yrs outa date
changed the very inacurat note on cell service as theres absolutly nothing for 400km's no idea why someone put saying it was avail
needs a write up about the agreement signed last year with alamos gold not sure best way to make that format source ect
but a historic agreement was signed with the gold mining company for a mine in 2023.
the mine has a education cordnator thats moved up here working between lynn lake and 21 (mcfn gets referd to localy as 21 as its at mile 21 on the highway from lynn lake)
the lynn lake page could use some help linking the 2 communities pages better as well
its a small place but theres allot of positve energy around it these days
local communications is all done via facebook so allot of the source info is on one of 2 facebook pages
Hello 1ajs, In looking at the article I see that one of the main issues with Marcel Colomb First Nation is it reads more like an organization's profile than an encyclopedia article. Almost nothing is cited to any source, much less a reliable source. I think the band is notable based on the few primary sources provided but we are told we should not use primary sources to prove notability. We definitely cannot use Facebook to verify notability. I'll have to start digging for secondary sources but I think the article needs a complete rewrite. One could argue it shouldn't be in encyclopedia mainspace in the state that it is. That does not reflect negatively on the subject but more the articles current state as opposed to what is required by encyclopedia policy. --ARoseWolf15:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC) --edit 15:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Added a statement about the agreement with citation. Yuchitown has also updated the article making it more encyclopedic, other various copy editing. --ARoseWolf17:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
thank you for your help
i dont know what u do for siting stuff when theres no website and everyone uses facebook uphere to communicate this information.
1ajs (talk) 17:48, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
We don't include anything that can't be verified through reliable sources. That is one reason a lot of articles stay small. It can be frustrating, to say the least, but it's the policies we have to work with. --ARoseWolf11:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Minneapolis, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
Would it make sense to have a "Delete Sort" category for Indigenous Peoples of the United States related AfDs? I don't know how those d.s. categories are created, or even it if would be a good idea, but it just occurred to me seeing this notification. I went to add delete-sorts using Twinkle, but this one didn't show up. Just a thot.... Netherzone (talk) 17:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Yes, sorry. When you said, "I know what some of those words mean," I mistakenly thought you were a newer editor than you actually are. I will admit, I don't know what a "delete-sort" is either. LOL. Anyway, thanks for the alerts. I did comment that the one above. If you do figure out what "delete-sort" means, I'm all ears. :) --David Tornheim (talk) 17:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Hello! What I mean by "delete-sort", is there is a useful script by EnterpriseyBot called delsort (found here User:Enterprisey/delsort ) which can be installed to your common.js sub-page that makes it really easy to add WikiProject-type categories to AfDs to draw the attention of editors in that area, alerting them that there is an AfD in an area of their interest. It shows up in the "More" menu when you're on a deletion discussion page, when you click you can add multiple relevant categories from the drop-down window that opens. (Sorry if this is not clear, I'm not a technical type person, however it is a useful tool!) Netherzone (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Exploitative nude photograph of indigenous woman on Robert Peary Page
I have been trying for some time to remove a nude photograph of an Inughuit girl, taken in exploitative conditions, from the page for American polar explorer, Robert Peary.
As I have set out at length in the discussion for the Robert Peary page, academic research has established that Peary and his fellow expedition members took a number of pornographic images of young Inughuit women. These women - including the woman in this particular photo - were almost all married. At the time (1891-1909), however, the Americans regarded the Inughuit as 'savages' and therefore fair game for them to use. Indeed, this particular woman had first been taken by Peary as his mistress (often wrongly described as his 'wife' - he was already married to an American) when she was 14. She had two children by him.
In her discussion of these photographs, Renée Hulan of St Mary's University, Halifax, Canada, took the decision not to publish any of the images to which she refers. (Renée Hulan, 'Alnayah’s People: Archival Photographs from West Greenland, 1908–1909', Interventions, 25:8, (2023), pp. 1088-1109, DOI: 10.1080/1369801X.2023.2169621
Removing this photograph seems to be an appropriate course of action. These photographs were taken under exploitative conditions - the women were taken on board a ship, far from their homes, for many months. At least one was photographed tied to the mast of the ship. They are pornographic in intent and racist in origin.
However, each time I remove this image, ThaddeusSholto reinstates it. He does so without any discussion of the moral issues involved, saying only that I may not remove an image simply because 'I do not like it.'
I am certain you will agree that such a image is inappropriate for wikipedia and a shocking exploitation of indigenous peoples. It is exploitative, pornographic and racist. The individual may even have been under 18 when the photograph was taken. Since I am unable, it seems, to remove it, I am hoping that you will assist me to do so. Jon Rosebank (talk) 09:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Absolutely no hero and I don't agree with or like how you were engaged or the lack of collaborative engagement. If one wants to stick to policy and make that their argument, that's fine, but they can do so with empathy too. Claiming you called them names when you didn't and threatening with blocks unless you take your position to the article talk page only to refuse to engage you there and lob more accusations of bad faith is appalling and unbecoming. --ARoseWolf12:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
I was going to leave a long detailed message on your talk page but it's moot now. I would say that I disagree with your approach and with the premise that the above constituted and attack on you personally or us collectively. If the above editor believed that I do not think they would have taken the time to try and reason with you or even us. I think they saw what they perceived as an issue and rather than meeting someone with empathy that could see the spirit behind why Wikipedia is here they met a stone wall unwilling to discuss anything beyond how wrong they were even to the point of edit warring with them. That's unfortunate but that's my observation. I was going to try and appeal to your better judgement in the matter as an experienced editor with a lot of contributions but, as I said, it's moot. --ARoseWolf15:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
They made the accusation more than once [3][4] so I guess we disagree about whether or not it was intended as an attack. I don't feel that asking them to use the talk page was "stonewalling" nor was asking for consensus or policy. Perhaps we disagree about what stonewalling is, too. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 16:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
You told them to engage in discussion on the talk page (some might say threatened) and then ignored them and refused to engage them until today. --ARoseWolf16:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
And I will add I can see how someone that doesn't interact with this community and doesn't know our policies would see keeping the picture as consent or even agreement with it, especially when that person uses something as weird as WP:CENSOR as the basis for their willingness to edit war over it's inclusion. Do I agree with that assertion? No, else I wouldn't be here discussing it with you. But I also question who should be the experienced editor in that situation? A slightly softer tone and an attempt at empathy would go a long way. --ARoseWolf16:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
I think that advice goes both ways. I don't feel like you have been WP:AGF here at all. You ask questions and then immediately answer them for me and chastise me for things I didn't do (threaten and ignore editors.) I have given my reasons here and I am not arguing to retain the image so you can drop the stick now. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 16:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
It saddens me to see how badly Jon Rosebank was treated. ThaddeusSholto, I hope you will consider reviewing WP:NOTVANDALISM as I don't think your use of templated warnings was in line with Wikipedia community norms.
I re-added the portion about self-identification. I didn't see much else that made a huge difference in the article. They can go to the article talk page to discuss the part I re-added if they so wish to contest it's inclusion. --ARoseWolf14:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
It's very simple: The edits on Darcie Little Badger's article violated Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons by making negative claims about the article's subject not backed up by reliable sources. BLP requires a higher threshold for stuff like this than non-biography articles and these recent edits absolutely crossed that line. As for sockpuppets, I don't know what you mean about that and I sincerely hope you're not accusing me of being one or working with sockpuppets (my track record as an editor and admin here should speak for itself). SouthernNights (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
How is it a negative? Show me how stating the obvious, that someone self-identifies, is a negative. Because you see it as a negative it must be a negative, right? Darcie Little Badger claims to be Lipan Apache but is not claimed as a member of a recognized sovereign Lipan Apache nation, meaning they have went through a rigorous process of proving they are directly connected to that Indigenous people here at the time of pre-colonial and colonial contact. They are a member of a cultural heritage group that is not recognized and therefore has not proven a direct link. By stating they self-identify Wikipedia is offering context. It is not a negative. We are not saying they do not descend from the Lipan Apache, only there is no source to verify this link.
I never said you are working with Sockpuppets. It wouldn't make much sense to tag you if I thought that. However, your distortion of BLP policy supports their position and their disruptive editing. --ARoseWolf13:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
"Saying a Native American self-identifies is a major BLP issue without reliable citations" Are you saying Darcie is Native American and you have proof of this? --ARoseWolf13:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm not going to go down an endless debate hole on all this. Per BLP, potentially negative info must be reliably sourced. It's very simple, so unless you have a reliable source specifically saying Darcie Little Badger self-identifies as Native, you can't add it to the article. You didn't provide that so the edits are not allowed per BLP.--SouthernNights (talk) 14:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
You, from an administrative position, made claims in your edit summary and your refusing to explain your arbitrary decisions adequately quite frankly is unbecoming of an administrator in this instance. You are accountable to the editing community and should go out of your way to clarify your statements and decisions not shut down concerned editors with statements like "I'm not going to go down an endless debate hole on all this.". It doesn't have to be endless but it has to make sense. I admire and look up to the admin corps and some of my closest wiki-friends are administrators or former admins. --ARoseWolf14:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Yes, saying someone self-identifies as Native can be a negative claim if that is not what they claim and, as in Little Badger's article, there are plenty of reliable sources stating that she is Native and a member of the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas. Before making my decision on the BLP issue, I went through the edit history of the tribe's article. In my opinion, there is POV pushing happening to that article with regards to whether or not the tribe is state recognized. In particular, it appears citations are being cherry-picked to show the tribe is not state recognized when reliable citations that state the opposite such as the one from the University of Cincinnati Law Review are ignored or downplayed. I'm still trying to determine what all is going on with the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas article. However, Little Badger's article is an easier determination because it is covered by BLP and as such must meet those standards. My decision was neither arbitrary or unbecoming. Wikipedia takes very seriously issues related to BLP and all editors are expected to follow these standards. SouthernNights (talk) 15:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
We are pushing the neutral POV here, Southern. Other admins have looked into this and concluded that fact. As a wikiproject many members that have come and gone, very many of them I wish were still present. have worked diligently to build consensus around these topics through thoughtful discourse, relentless research of sources and dedication to accuracy. You pride yourself on your record which is understandable. You obtained that record through much the same way policies, guidelines and consensus were formed around these topics, very hard work. We do not have to cite a source that Darcie self-identifies as Native American because Darcie claims to be Native American, as you pointed out, in reliable sources. That, by definition, is self (Darci) identification (identifies). The proof is on those removing the self-identification to only state Native American so emphatically to prove status. --ARoseWolf15:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Saying someone identifies as being Native American is a neutral statement based on available citations (an individual making public statements that they are Native American or belong to Foo Tribe). That is all that can be proven. To make further claims would require concrete support coming from authoritative sources outside of that individual or, in the case, their organization. Native American tribe are legally defined entities throughout U.S. federal law. There's no debate that this individual is a member of the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas. To say that organization is a Native American tribe would require some serious secondary, published citations that have not yet been produced. Only the State of Texas can state what its state-recognized tribes are; and state-recognized tribes themselves are a surprisingly nebulous, ill-defined concept (the primary US federal law that mentions them is the 1990 Indian Arts and Crafts Act, which is currently under review for amending). Instead expending so much energy trying to WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, and WP:PROMO on Wikipedia, the LATT-affiliated individuals would be better served working IRL with their state legislators to secure recognition, since previous bills for formal state recognition have died in committee. Yuchitown (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Renaming discussion for Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States