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wnewsdaystalestupid
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Posted
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samzenpus
October 09, 2013 @06:06PM
from the how-bad-is-it? dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A day after TEPCO workers mistakenly turned off cooling pumps serving the spent pool at reactor #4 at the crippled nuclear plant comes a new accident — 6 workers apparently removed the wrong pipe from a primary filtration system and were doused with highly radioactive water. They were wearing protection yet such continuing mishaps and 'small mistakes' are becoming a pattern at the facility."
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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
byMoblaster ( 521614 ) writes:
The most troublesome thing about this nuclear pipe water tipping incident is that there is nothing funny about it.
What possible humor is there in this? Shall we call the place "Tipco" or something? Shall we make jokes about the water itself, and say silly things like, "Oh, they spilled water? Hopefully it wasn't heavy water! Get it? Hehe." Dumb stuff like that. Or talk about the fact that at least they were wearing protection. So they won't get a disease. Surely, that joke would be pregnant with humor.
T
bynospam007 ( 722110 ) * writes:
"The most troublesome thing about this nuclear pipe water tipping incident is that there is nothing funny about it."
We never found it funny, that they are telling us now for 50 years that it's perfectly safe and that they are professionals who can handle any problem, no matter what.
Now we know that they can't even handle a bunch of simple systems that have a tank, a hose and a pump.
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byfuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) writes:
It does seem increasingly clear that TEPCO couldn't be trusted to take care of your fishtank for a weekend(not even the freshwater one that's really relaxed about sampling and balance adjustments); but it should be noted, in fairness, that wacky piping accidents do get easier the more thickly built (ideally ad-hoc, and in poorly labelled stages, with evolutionary growth here and there) the piping rat's nest gets.
The essence of true competence is to avoid getting into situations where continuous high levels of competence are needed; by not backing yourself into a clusterfuck of a system that is always one false move away from doing something dangerous; but if you've fucked up and done that, it's really just a matter of time until somebody gets tapped as the fall guy by the pitiless gods of blind chance.
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byultranova ( 717540 ) writes:
The essence of true competence is to avoid getting into situations where continuous high levels of competence are needed; by not backing yourself into a clusterfuck of a system that is always one false move away from doing something dangerous; but if you've fucked up and done that, it's really just a matter of time until somebody gets tapped as the fall guy by the pitiless gods of blind chance.
Unfortunately, this means that you get the credit for savings due to doing the bare minimum of maintenance to keep
bycffrost ( 885375 ) writes:
Now we know that they can't even handle a bunch of simple systems that have a tank, a hose and a pump.
Do you mean to say that nuclear engineers are incapable of procreation?
bydyingtolive ( 1393037 ) writes:
Oooh, someone forgot to tick the Anonymous Coward box....
bymcgrew ( 92797 ) * writes:
Maybe he's not a coward?
bylgw ( 121541 ) writes:
Here you go: we should send the NSA employees over to work on the dangerous reactor cleanup - that way we solve two problems at once!
bytheshowmecanuck ( 703852 ) writes:
From the summary...
yet such continuing mishaps and 'small mistakes' are becoming a pattern at the facility
The most troublesome thing is that this pattern is continuing from before the tsunami even hit. Otherwise there wouldn't be any problem right now. And the fact it goes so far back and they're still letting those stooges run things.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
But it isn't a pattern of small mistakes. A design that guaranteed that a generator failure during a power outage would result in a meltdown was (and still is) considered safe. That's not a mistake, that's a fundamental design/regulatory issue. That they put the generators in line with a tsunami path, rather than mounting them on the roof of a reinforced shed (which would have prevented the meltdown, so long as the fuel wasn't contaminated before the backup fuel was brought in), wasn't error. It was intentional. There's a difference. An unfortunate event that was intentional is negligence. Opening the wrong pipe mistakenly believing it to be a different one is a 'small mistake'/mishap.
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bytheshowmecanuck ( 703852 ) writes:
When you get a question wrong in a math test you still intentionally put the answer you did. And it is still a mistake.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
When graded for partial credit, they'll not get the same results. Not all errors are mistakes, and not all mistakes are errors
byaccount_deleted ( 4530225 ) writes:
Comment removed based on user account deletion
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byaccount_deleted ( 4530225 ) writes:
Comment removed based on user account deletion
bydj245 ( 732906 ) writes:
That they put the generators in line with a tsunami path, rather than mounting them on the roof of a reinforced shed (which would have prevented the meltdown, so long as the fuel wasn't contaminated before the backup fuel was brought in), wasn't error. It was intentional. There's a difference.
1. It probably wasn't intentional. The nuclear industry takes this kind of thing very seriously if anybody points it out during the design stage. It was overlooked.
2. They would have been screwed even if the generators were fine, because the pumps, and the motors/turbines which drive the pumps, were also located in the basement and were ruined. This placement is almost unavoidable because you generally need to put the pump below the lowest possible water level of the supply tank.
byjbengt ( 874751 ) writes:
They would have been screwed even if the generators were fine, because the pumps, and the motors/turbines which drive the pumps, were also located in the basement and were ruined. This placement is almost unavoidable because you generally need to put the pump below the lowest possible water level of the supply tank.
If that's the case, then next time it should be remembered that it is possible to use submersible pumps.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
My favorite was Katrina. the pumps failed. They used submersible pumps. With the driving electronics co-located and non-submersible. The pumps were not damaged, but inoperable because of the location of the control circuits. What idiot designed a submersible pump install that wouldn't work submerged?
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
The pumps didn't fail. The power to them failed. The pump design was fine, it was the US Corps of Engineers install of updates and upgrades over the years that made the (silly) assumption that all flooding will rise slower than the pump can pump it out.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
What's funny is that the waste heat was sufficient to run the pumps to prevent a meltdown. But the design didn't include smaller secondary generators that could generate local power to prevent a meltdown. I remember when I was a kid and I asked the same thing about a nuclear plant in Texas. They had mains power coming back in, so of course I asked why they'd need power coming in if they were a power plant. They responded they aren't allowed to use any local generation until after it had joined the grid.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
As an engineer, the hardest discussion is explaining to people that I don't care how it works, but how it fails. People think "fail safe" is a switch on a bomb, not a design principle. Engineering is a philosophy most people just don't get.
bydelt0r ( 999393 ) writes:
Including engineer's it seems.
byJoe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) writes:
It seems a lot like SNPP
bymcgrew ( 92797 ) * writes:
Well, the first post linked to a picture of the three stooges so...
bydjupedal ( 584558 ) writes:
. . . the boys should not be trusted with nuclear anything. They know how to take notes and make lists, but when it comes to handling risk, they're clueless.
I once found a radioactive test sample in a dumpster when I worked for a medical device manuf. in Tokyo - there are many more stories to go along with that one. Like how we were told if there was a fire to first order a pizza, then tell the firemen to follow the delivery to the fire. A lumber yard caught on fire one night, and we watched as the sirens and flashing lights on the fire trucks zig zagged around the neighborhood - 45 minutes later, the fire was out and they still hadn't found it.
An outside multi-national agency must be brought in or these types of calamities will only continue with TEPCO.
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byDeadstick ( 535032 ) writes:
A lumber yard caught on fire one night, and we watched as the sirens and flashing lights on the fire trucks zig zagged around the neighborhood - 45 minutes later, the fire was out and they still hadn't found it.
I didn't even have to leave Exceptionalistan to see that happen. I live in a suburban square mile bounded by four section-line streets, trisected by the confluence of two streams, and bisected by a power-line easement. My son's buddy hurt himself on a dirt bike, I called his HMO, the HMO operator set off a full-boat response of police, fire engines and ambulances...and I got to listen to the sirens dopplering up and down and fading in and out until I sent a kid out on a bicycle to tell them how to do the
byTangoMargarine ( 1617195 ) writes:
Hopefully you didn't use words like "trisecting" and "confluence" in your directions...
bycffrost ( 885375 ) writes:
[W]e were told if there was a fire to first order a pizza, then tell the firemen to follow the delivery to the fire. A lumber yard caught on fire one night, and we watched as the sirens and flashing lights on the fire trucks zig zagged around the neighborhood - 45 minutes later, the fire was out and they still hadn't found it.
From the details you provided, it sounds like you neglected to order a pizza before calling the fire department — is that what happened?
byAmiMoJo ( 196126 ) * writes:
Like how we were told if there was a fire to first order a pizza, then tell the firemen to follow the delivery to the fire. A lumber yard caught on fire one night, and we watched as the sirens and flashing lights on the fire trucks zig zagged around the neighborhood - 45 minutes later, the fire was out and they still hadn't found it.
I can't believe such an obvious lie was modded up to +5 insightful. Ignoring the rest of your post which may or may not have merit, this kind of stuff is obviously nonsense. At best you were probably confused and the emergency services were attending other events.
Japan has some of the most detailed city mapping the world. Long before Google started doing it their sat-nav systems have full street level 3D views with texture mapped buildings and landmarks, even street furniture. It was quite remarkable being
byTangoMargarine ( 1617195 ) writes:
I wasn't aware that there is now a rule that we can only criticize our own demographics about anything.
bydj245 ( 732906 ) writes:
. . . the boys should not be trusted with nuclear anything. They know how to take notes and make lists, but when it comes to handling risk, they're clueless.
I once found a radioactive test sample in a dumpster when I worked for a medical device manuf. in Tokyo - there are many more stories to go along with that one. Like how we were told if there was a fire to first order a pizza, then tell the firemen to follow the delivery to the fire. A lumber yard caught on fire one night, and we watched as the sirens and flashing lights on the fire trucks zig zagged around the neighborhood - 45 minutes later, the fire was out and they still hadn't found it.
In Japan, an address is generally a number on a block, not a number on a street. Giving directions becomes a lot more tricky. You can wander around for a while looking for the right block even if you know generally where it should be.
If the addresses were tied to the street, eventually you could find the right street and travel along that street, but in Japan this is not the case.
bySmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) writes:
They got people in Japan who can read Japanese signs. Chinese vistors!
byAlienSexist ( 686923 ) writes:
Every time TEPCO appears in the news I swear I hear yet another "Doh" soundbyte.
byAnonymous Coward writes:
Queue the malcontents to stir up the idiots with OMG TEPCO IS KILLING TEH EARTH!!!1
Stop it. They're handling vast quantities of water in thousands pipes, tanks, tunnels and pumps. Some of it is going to leak. Some of it will spill. Sometimes it will get on someones rad suit. This isn't incompetence or the end of the world. It is the natural and expected consequence of dealing with fucking plumbing.
Whatever. This hysteria has an expiration date; after the 50th OMG THEY SPILT SOMETHING story people will get tired of it and the media will seek out some new source of hysteria.
That is, at least, as it should be. It would be nice if we could just not indulge this stupid shit to begin with.
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byfnj ( 64210 ) writes:
Living proof why this level of bumbling exists. Because millions of lazy ass ignorant unengaged morons like you stand for it.
byAnonymous Coward writes:
Queue the malcontents to stir up the idiots with OMG TEPCO IS KILLING TEH EARTH!!!1
Woah, woah, woah. Now hold it right there. We malcontents were saying TEPCO are a bunch of hopeless dipshits somehow trusted to manage nuclear safety coupled with an ingrained cultural stigma towards requesting outside assistance.
We never said anything about them killing the earth.
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byOhANameWhatName ( 2688401 ) writes:
we could just not indulge this stupid shit to begin with
Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth.
byheadhot ( 137860 ) writes:
Its almost like the are in a culture where you can't call out people's mistakes and follow orders blindly.
byfuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) writes:
Its almost like the are in a culture where you can't call out people's mistakes and follow orders blindly.
A corporation?
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bymcgrew ( 92797 ) * writes:
That was the most insightful thing I've seen in this thread, thank you. There was a slashdot topic a while back, and I asked Samantha Wright about neurochemistry affects the brain, and she replied with this link [psmag.com], which isn't chemistry at all but a fascinating treatise on human cultures (and in fact answered my question). We are all products of our environments. The linked article notes that westerners are weird, and the weirdest of the westerners is Americans from testing different peoples.
byridgecritter ( 934252 ) writes:
Great link, thank you.
byArcadeMan ( 2766669 ) writes:
And that, boys and girls, is where tentacle monsters come from.
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bygstoddart ( 321705 ) writes:
How do you accidentally remove the wrong pipe when you're working with nuclear stuff?
I've worked in the software and IT industry for quite a few years, and in that time I've learned that there are things you do that need to be precise, because you can make a hell of a mess if you don't. To do this, you measure twice, measure a few more times, and have your second who has been watching what you're doing confirm you're doing what you expect to be.
I learned this from maintaining production systems for business critical stuff, and a few things for which lives could literally be on the line. But at the end of the day, it's still less dangerous and critical than working on a nuclear plant.
This just sounds to me like either they're fumbling around in the dark, working from incomplete plans and don't actually know what the parts are, or are just simply not taking time to do the diligence on what they're doing.
Especially when it's your ass that's going to get splashed with highly radioactive water.
For a nation which has a reputation for fastidious attention to detail, obsessive safety drills, and engineering excellence ... how the hell are they ending up with a company which has made so many 'mistakes' in this?
Once again, I have to wonder if these guys are actually qualified to be running nuclear reactors. Because this is two accidents in a few days, and I get the impression that a lot of this was also caused by human error.
The mind boggles.
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bywiredlogic ( 135348 ) writes:
This is the Japanese nuclear industry. Somebody higher up the chain of command identified the wrong pipe to remove and the peons that had to do the work are socially conditioned to accept orders without question. This saves said superior from the embarrassment of having underlings point out his mistakes... until the mistakes can't be shoved under the rug where everyone can pretend they didn't happen.
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byvlueboy ( 1799360 ) writes:
I've worked in the software and IT industry for quite a few years, and in that time I've learned that there are things you do that need to be precise, because you can make a hell of a mess if you don't.
"Measure fifty times... cut ONCE."
Radioactivity justifies taking this koan as close to verbatim as possible.
bymdielmann ( 514750 ) writes:
Once again, I have to wonder if these guys are actually qualified to be running nuclear reactors. Because this is two accidents in a few days, and I get the impression that a lot of this was also caused by human error.
The mind boggles.
I guess it wasn't the Germans that bought the Springfield nuclear power plant. And then they used Homer as the model employee when HR went on a hiring spree.
byaccount_deleted ( 4530225 ) writes:
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byeulernet ( 1132389 ) writes:
There is an excellent article in french explaining the problem:
http://www.lepoint.fr/environnement/fukushima-des-liquidateurs-temoignent-de-l-enfer-sur-terre-27-09-2013-1735686_1927.php [lepoint.fr]
In fact, it appears that all these tasks are done by unqualified people, like bus drivers or fishmongers.
These people went unemployed, following Fukushima's problems.
Tepco is unable to handle these problems, so they seek contractors to work on them.
The winning contractors are always the lowest bidders, and they tend to find s
bygstoddart ( 321705 ) writes:
please tell me which pipe is the correct on in this tiny fraction of a plumbing schematic for a power plant
See, if I was actually qualified for, and responsible to do that, I might try.
That I don't know how to do it is irrelevant. That they don't know is appalling.
Because every place I've worked in that had extensive piping that carried dangerous stuff ... the piped were clearly labelled, and people had good schematics of them.
My dad makes hockey ice, and you can bet your ass that the pipes that carry ammonia for the cooling are all brightly labelled as such. And if the sensors detect anything, he and several other people are all getting paged to look at it right away, because an ammonia leak could wipe out a few city blocks.
Are you telling me the Japanese nuclear industry can't label pipes and keep good schematics, but people who make hockey ice are onto something new?
Sorry, not buying it.
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byOsgeld ( 1900440 ) writes:
did you not know the place was nearly destroyed?
http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/03/16/1226022/657762-japan-reactor.jpg [news.com.au]
yea those tidy schematics are really helpful
byconfused one ( 671304 ) writes:
If you ignore the catastrophic earthquake, tsunami, explosions and fire(s), you might have a point.
bycouchslug ( 175151 ) writes:
Nothing special there. You TRACE piping as you would any other schematic.
Fun fact:
You can physically VERIFY what is inside a pipe before severing it!
"Cold tap" and "hot tap" fittings allow connection even to PRESSURISED and FLAMMABLE pipes and pipelines. (An interesting example is hot-tapping burning railroad tank cars to remove the non-burning portion of the contents while the rest flares.) Hot and cold are common and commercially available and if you need a special fitting any competent machine/fab shop c
byjbengt ( 874751 ) writes:
Actually, I work with piping diagrams more complicated than that quite often. The diagram is easy, figuring out which pipe in the field matches which pipe in the diagram is the hard part. But it's done correctly by workers all the time, and in the case of really seriously hazardous fluids, mistakes are exceedingly rare (and never repeated;).
byOsgeld ( 1900440 ) writes:
I dont think there is enough data to support that workers do it all the time in a heavily damaged facility
bySleazyRidr ( 1563649 ) writes:
It looks scary if you're not familiar with them, but there's nothing really difficult there. I remember when I was still in uni, the lecturer handed out diagrams similar to that for the shock value, by the end of the semester everyone understood it fairly completely.
Also remember that that type of diagram is arranged in such a way as to make everything fit on the page and be easy(ish) to follow. The actual equipment will be arranged in a more ordered way, with the pipes between them arranged on pipe racks,
byMrKaos ( 858439 ) writes:
More than likely the workers are all getting fatigued and small mistakes are starting.
It's well beyond time for the Japanese government to bring the Japanese military in to bring this under control. After that an international effort to assist Japan in any way required. Even considering the pride of the nation as a factor it's now becoming an international problem for any country that shares the pacific ocean.
This is well beyond TEPCO's ability and expertise, they are a utilities company. Furthermore it was their negligence through nonfeasance that got us into this mess in the first place. A criminal investigation should be conducted and the future of the company considered.
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byPhil Urich ( 841393 ) writes:
More than likely the workers are all getting fatigued and small mistakes are starting.
It's well beyond time for the Japanese government to bring the Japanese military in to bring this under control. After that an international effort to assist Japan in any way required. Even considering the pride of the nation as a factor it's now becoming an international problem for any country that shares the pacific ocean.
This is well beyond TEPCO's ability and expertise, they are a utilities company. Furthermore it was their negligence through nonfeasance that got us into this mess in the first place. A criminal investigation should be conducted and the future of the company considered.
Replying to you because I accidentally moderated "Offtopic" instead of "Insightful", oops. Apropos of your comment, I'm really tired today and it's been a long day at work.
byGoonie ( 8651 ) writes:
Militaries tend to be expert in fighting wars. They are not expert in civilian nuclear power plants and environmental remediation.
Should we militarize the entire American workforce given that 13 Americans die every day in workplace accidents?
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
Even considering the pride of the nation as a factor it's now becoming an international problem for any country that shares the pacific ocean.
If every bit of contaminanted water was dumped in the ocean, and raw seawater was pumped in for cooling and not collected, would the levels have an effect that would be measurable from the US? The ocean is pretty big. Japan does more harm with illegal whaling than this, and the US condones that.
byGoonie ( 8651 ) writes:
Yes, it would be detectable. But that doesn't mean it would be at levels that pose a significant incremental risk to the wider ocean environment or human health.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
Would it be detectable? The background radiation would be many times higher than anything Fukushima caused, unless the type of radiation is different enough to pick out of the background.
byMrKaos ( 858439 ) writes:
Even considering the pride of the nation as a factor it's now becoming an international problem for any country that shares the pacific ocean.
If every bit of contaminanted water was dumped in the ocean, and raw seawater was pumped in for cooling and not collected, would the levels have an effect that would be measurable from the US?
That's a great question but not the issue that is a threat to human health, the best answer I have (in light of the lack of real data being provided) is probably not very measurable.
It's the effects radionuclides bio-concentrated in the food chain, how they analogue micronutrients presented to metabolisms and the ge
byMrKaos ( 858439 ) writes:
Chernobyl was x times worse than Fukushima and we didn't see a cancer epidemic in Europe and the middle east.
Educating yourself about which international organisation has interdiction authority over the W.H.O in publishing results for Nuclear matters may assist you finding that actual truth here. Hint: it has I and A and E and A in its name.
bygweihir ( 88907 ) writes:
Indeed. Also, there are no established safe procedures for these improvised systems. This means you actually have to understand what you are doing. As not even the TEPCO reactor designers and operators had that level of insight, how are low-level workers supposed to move safely in such an environment? I expect we will see a lot of cancer casualties in the next 10-20 years among these workers.
byMrKaos ( 858439 ) writes:
dump the fucking slagged reactor core directly in the Pacific ocean and you would be safe across the Pacific.
Your comment suggests you are unclear on the difference between radiation and radionuclide which illustrates you have a poor understanding of the situation. Whilst it is clear you are trolling Mr AC, you are also propagating misinformation and ignorance detrimental to both sides of this debate.
byMrKaos ( 858439 ) writes:
I will say it again: measurable != dangerous.
Like I said: a poor understanding of the situation.
bymanu0601 ( 2221348 ) writes:
It is difficult to understand why TEPCO is still in charge. Their record for managing this mess is not appealing.
byBrendaEM ( 871664 ) writes:
I grow tired to reading with radiative elements and contaminated materials being labeled merely "toxic."
Sitting in a room for few hours with a closed bottle of bleach won't terminally wound you, not like the water leaking from the Fukishima plant.
byslashmydots ( 2189826 ) writes:
My last post on this topic a couple days ago was "I'm starting to get the impression that Tepco only hired idiots." This has now been 100% confirmed.
byJawnn ( 445279 ) writes:
Known unstable and dangerously radioactive environment. Workers fully aware of dangers and thus, arguably, more than a little careful about their every move. And still, dangerous mistakes were made. Given the profound consequences of human mistakes in the operation of nuclear reactors, tell me why, again, that it's a good idea to build them?
bygweihir ( 88907 ) writes:
Simple: Satisfy greed for power in politicians that want the bomb or want to be able to build it fast if needed. Satisfy greed for money (and lots and lots of it) in the nuclear industry.
No rational reasons otherwise. And we are burning nuclear fuel that will be essential should we ever want to travel around this solar system. Wasting precious resources in this stupid way could well kill or much delay colonization of the solar system.
bygweihir ( 88907 ) writes:
The only protection worthwhile is protecting the respiratory and digestive system, because anything going in that way will stay long. These people got the same dosage as if they had been doing this naked, but with filter-masks. Might not be a good idea for any of them to reproduce now and they have won a significantly increased risk of cancer as reward for their incompetence.
byCapt.DrumkenBum ( 1173011 ) writes:
Oh, a wiseguy, eh?
byerikkemperman ( 252014 ) writes:
Oh dear, forget to check the anonymous checkbox did we? This post is basically word for word the same as countless anon troll posts... So either you have no imagination or, more likely, we have finally identified the fetid feces troll. Idiot.
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byinterkin3tic ( 1469267 ) writes:
Don't hate the internet troll: he is a sad and pathetic creature. Why would someone do such a thing if they weren't terribly lonely. Aside from annoying you temporarily, he causes you no harm. Pity him instead.
Or maybe ask why slashdot doesn't take steps to counter this. Why exactly are comments still listed by time rather than by score by default? Is it just that we're all so used to first post nonsense that we'd miss it were it to go away? Why can you post AC or with a brand-new account immediate
byX0563511 ( 793323 ) writes:
it could very well have been a misclick. Whenever I manage to do it I try to post to null it out, though.
It's been happening ever since the web2.0 "rewrite"
byrudy_wayne ( 414635 ) writes:
I would be willing to bet that things like this happen frequently at nuclear power plants in the U.S. but they aren't being closely scrutinized so you don't hear about it.
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byDiamonddavej ( 851495 ) writes:
That's rubbish, if they were exposed to excess radiation from accidents that are covered up, nuclear workers in the US would have increased rates of cancer. They don't (Boice et al, 2011).
The overall health of nuclear workers is better than the national average. They have over all, a lower incidence of all cancers and non-cancer illnesses. Only after adjusting carefully for lifestyle factors and closely examining the health rerecords of 100s of thousands of international workers, some of whom worked in the
byfritsd ( 924429 ) writes:
It's salamitaktik from Tepco and the nuclear power industry's reputation managers. .
They're releasing a steady stream of "meh" stories to desensitize the public in the leadup to a genuinely damaging story. Something has gone badly wrong, and they'll tell us about it when we're all thoroughly jaded with these puff-pieces.
I read somewhere that they're soon going to begin trying to pull the 1331 rods out of spent fuel pool #4 (the full one on the first floor), one by one, without dropping any to the bottom
byicebike ( 68054 ) writes:
That will look perfectly normal to the three eyed Tepco workers.
bybob_super ( 3391281 ) writes:
In Japan?
Even asking for a giant Mech to help fight Godzilla is considered a failure.
bygoombah99 ( 560566 ) writes:
I think tepco has now become the new 2013 slang word for cluster fuck or a dumbshit move.
byRightwingNutjob ( 1302813 ) writes:
Oh, that's just because their mistakes are in the media cross-hairs. All the preventable and expensive stupid mistakes I could tell you about at my place of employment would give TEPCO a run for its money, but I've agreed to several kinds of NDAs and don't feel like getting sued and/or going to jail for divulging specifics. And I'll bet you even money no place is immune.
bybinarylarry ( 1338699 ) writes:
Yeah well that's because NO ONE ELSE HAS CREATED A BIGGER MESS THAN CHERNOBYL in recent times.
fuck the slashdot caps filter, snakes begone!
byerroneus ( 253617 ) writes:
Yes, there is.
Recently, I have been going over distinctions between western/American and Japanese cultures. It has been widely accepted that Japanese cultures do not require leaders as much as western/American cultures. When and where things are established and routine, accepted and understood, the Japanese excel in ways that make western/Americans a bit jealous and often awed. On the other hand, crisis management is best handled by smaller numbers and individual thinkers who can collectively see more because they all see things differently.
There are other aspects as well and among these are in how errors, mistakes and anomalies are perceived and handled. When and where the first response is denial, it is an early sign of delayed problem resolution. In a crisis, delays in problem resolution are sometimes deadly. I believe we are seeing this at play now.
I once, in a committee with both Japanese and American members, pointed out that Columbus Day essentially celebrates a mistake of navigation and of understanding the world. The goal was to reach India. Columbus ended up somewhere else. We literally celebrate that and name things after this man. (The truth behind myth and legend is for another discussion and does not change the general truths, myths and legends the holiday actually celebrates in the hearts and minds of the people celebrating.) I pointed out that Americans, at times, celebrate mistakes. This is something the Japanese simply cannot do. The room went silent for a moment. Mistakes are not to be discussed, let alone acknowledged, in Japanese society.
I could go on and on about my experiences in this area, but each approach has its merit and each approach has led each culture into extremely successful growth and development in the world. After all, Japan and America (by which I mean the USA obviously) are highly developed and sophisicated world powers. To simplify and say one approach is wrong while another is right is ridiculous. Japan's way is "mastery" but it takes lifetimes and usually multiple lifetimes to achieve and maintain mastery of any given thing. America's way relies on talents, aptitudes and abilities of individuals to achieve great things. Which is better? We're both here at the same time after all.
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byfuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) writes:
Anybody feel up to a rendition of 'Yackety Sax' on a geiger counter and a selection of alarm klaxons?
byX0563511 ( 793323 ) writes:
Me to. If anyone somehow doesn't get the reference... this will do. [youtube.com]
byfuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) writes:
"Energy" is an awfully persuasive argument. Without it, your civilization will crumble to little more than medieval standards of living surprisingly fast.
Given that Japan has ~0 coal, oil, gas (not even much wood, per capita), it was either nukes or imports. Much of the rest of the world hasn't had to face up to the problem as dramatically because they've got a big stash of cheap 'n nasty coal somewhere convenient. That has its own downsides; but those have proven easy to ignore (unless you make the mistake of living in our under-construction Appalacian Lunar Theme Park or something).
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byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
They have sun and water. You'd think they'd be looking at something, anything else.
byfuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) writes:
It's entirely possible that much of 'they' weren't really asked. If the decision-making around Fukishima (when it was first installed) was anything like that around Minamata, stonewalling and general contempt for the 'opinions' of whiny little people was the official policy of both business and state.
byAK Marc ( 707885 ) writes:
The densities are higher with Japan, but in the US, if everyone put panels on their roof, we'd be able to close most power plants. And no, the radiation from the heavy metals isn't that bad.
byChas ( 5144 ) writes:
Okay, this is complete and utter bullshit.
Maybe, in the southern states of the union, this MIGHT be a plan. But only if SOMEONE builds in the appropriate power storage infrastructure (which currently doesn't exist). Otherwise you have no power in the evenings.
In northern climates, care and maintenance of panels would eat up massive quantities of time, and the weather can be severe enough to destroy panels. Additionally, there are going to large swaths of time, due to ambient conditions, where the panels
byOl Olsoc ( 1175323 ) writes:
"Energy" is an awfully persuasive argument. Without it, your civilization will crumble to little more than medieval standards of living surprisingly fast.
In my estimation, Japan was not remiss in using nuclear power. Your comments about their lack of energy resources are spot on. nuc was and is a good option for Japan.
What they were stupidly and criminally negligent in was building the way they built it, and mainly in the location where they built it. The plant was built in an area of historic Earthquake and Tsunami activity. Worse, the wall built to protect against Tsunami waves was insufficient to protect against waves that they knew would hit it.
The historical and geologic record shows this to be the case. The Japanese have records of when Tsunamis happened in the past, The geological record shows the gravel drops where the waves hit their highest level.
The Fukushima plant was going to be hit with an earthquake and Tsunami, and one of these events was going to have a wave height higher than the protective barrier.This was as close to scientific certainty as it is possible to be.
So what is a country to do that needs power and decides that nuclear is the way to go?
First of course, is to determine the risks, and determine how to mitigate them.Earthquakes and Tsunami are the main bugaboos in Japan. Since a large source of water is needed, you probably want to site the plant by a fresh water river. You want it far enough from the ocean and at a sufficient altitude that the Tsunami wave that will happen will not reach the plant. You want to place it in relative stable area regarding seismic activity.
Then after all that, you add a nice big safety factor in your design
But the toughest part is the politics. As likely as not, someone has a nice piece of property they think would just be crackerjack to sell to the company making the plant. There will be pressure to get done on schedule, and almost always, the bean counters trump the engineers.So other factors end up compromising the design, and you get a plant that has total certainty of a catastrophic failure.
As the technological issues are addressed and surmounted, it is yet to be shown if the political and human factors can.
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byfuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) writes:
If memory serves, both the US NRC (presumably because GE was involved, or because somebody asked) and their Japanese equivalent pointed out that there were... issues... with various aspects of the facility(including flooding-related ones that ended up being a problem, in addition to retro reactor design problems that they didn't know about); but nobody likes that guy who can't be a team player, and so such issues were not addressed.
byaccount_deleted ( 4530225 ) writes:
Comment removed based on user account deletion
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byn3r0.m4dski11z ( 447312 ) writes:
and here is your little chart if we keep trusting mere mortals with the power to create a country sized wasteland:
Deaths..Injuries/Illness..Location/Cause
999999999999999999999999..Fukushima Daiichi NPP (Radiation exposure)
999999999999999999999999.Fukushima Daiichi NPP (Earthquake / tsunami)
999999999999999999999999..Rest of Japan
That is one hell of a 10,000year - 100,000 year long mistake. Which could very well happen at those timescales, even if its rare, even if its got 8 safeties. We are all fallible human beings running this shit after all. No amount of clean, "safe", cheap power should be worth the risk of generating pollution lasting tens of thousands of years.
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byVortexCortex ( 1117377 ) writes:
We are all fallible human beings running this shit after all. No amount of clean, "safe", cheap power should be worth the risk of generating pollution lasting tens of thousands of years.
Think of the big picture: Pollution or not, Humans WILL become extinct unless they achieve extraplanetary footholds of life.
What better motivator to fund space agencies than, "Oh fuck! The whole planet is screwed!"
byAnonymous Coward writes:
In the long run, we are all dead.
The biggest casualties from Fukushima are the Chinese coal miners.
1.000-2.000 every year.
It is the substitution of nuclear energy by coal that costs lives. Not the other way around.
But those are the lives of Chinese peasants. So nobody cares.
bySerious Callers Only ( 1022605 ) writes:
There's a long term cost here which isn't just measured in lives (though hundreds will die eventually of related cancers from the clean up crews due to incompetence, coverups and negligence in exposing them over accepted limits). While the tsunami is over, the costs of the nuclear plant problems are still climbing, with no end in site, and 20km of land is now unusable, including several towns.
The Fukushima cleanup costs are 5 trillion yen and climbing (50 billion USD), likely to hit hundreds of billions of
bygweihir ( 88907 ) writes:
Lying with statistics done well! An impressive example!
bysizzzzlerz ( 714878 ) writes:
The goggles! They do nothing!
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