Talk:Golan Heights

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

• Why it should be changed: As it is written, it is not neutral since the word "rhetoric" has mostly negative connotations.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): ^[1]

2601:245:C100:5E5C:3978:8B2F:26A6:7870 (talk) 02:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Note: Apart from the loaded word "rhetoric", the sentence (On the other hand, expressing pro-Syrian rhetoric, The Economist found, represents the Golan Druzes' view...) doesn't make much sense and needs to be changed. M.Bitton (talk) 12:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

  Done I've cleaned up this sentence as well. Sagflaps (talk) 19:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

What is the scope of this article? The territory occupied by Israel in 1967, or a more general geographic area that possibly extends to non-occupied parts of Syria and Lebanon? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Googling "Golan Heights" shows that most sources identify it as a geopolitical entity, i.e. Syrian and occupied by Israel since 1967, and not as primarily a geographic region. Editing accordingly. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

[1], [2], [3], [4] Makeandtoss (talk) 12:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@האופה: Please provide RS for your reasoning and participate in the talk page discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

@האופה: Assuming good faith and pinging one more time. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Both. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I support [5] this edit restoring an earlier and more neutral lead. As I remember from discussions on this talk page years ago: the political status of the region is complex and cannot be summarized in a brief sentence. Therefore the political status is given, but not in the first sentence, where there isn't room to put the complexities. Trying to fit in a bit of the political status into the first sentence tends to create a sentence perceived as biassed by some people and is therefore avoided. This is a longstanding solution for this page to reduce editwarring. There was a much earlier version of the first sentence years ago that somehow managed to describe it in terms of the countries around it without actually stating (or implying) its own political status in that sentence. Whoever came up with that version was a genius. Please discuss on talk page before changing controversial parts of the article such as the first sentence. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

It isn't all that complex, Syrian territory occupied by Israel, effectively annexed by Israel but that has been overwhelmingly rejected by the international community. See Status of the Golan Heights. nableezy - 14:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Still probably too much to fit all that into the first sentence. Someone would come along, think the sentence is awkward, shorten it, and the editwarring would start up again. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 02:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don’t feel like the potential for future disruption means we shouldn’t strive for an accurate and comprehensive article or lead. nableezy - 13:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

We can have an accurate and comprehensive article without feeling we have to stuff a lot of information into the first sentence. That said, I notice that the first sentence of Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights, "The Golan Heights are a rocky plateau in the Levant region of Western Asia that was captured by Israel from Syria in the 1967 Six-Day War.", seems to be reasonably short, mentions both geography and political information, seems neutral to me (by not mentioning whether it's occupied or annexed; that can be discussed in later sentences) and seems at a quick glance at the page history to have been staying unchanged in the article for some time. So it might be a candidate for a first sentence of this article. Feel free to suggest other alternatives. What do you see as being inaccurate or un-comprehensive? What do you think needs to change, why, and what specific wording would you suggest? ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I’m fine with that but it also needs to include occupied by Israel in the following sentence, or say and has been occupied by Israel since in that same sentence. nableezy - 22:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

The next sentences could detail the history of the place HaOfa (talk) 18:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

The history would go after the current status, which is Israeli occcupied. nableezy - 19:50, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm fine with this phrasing. Thanks, @Coppertwig, for striving to balance the content. HaOfa (talk) 18:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not, place is occupied, it's a defining feature. Selfstudier (talk) 20:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

This phrasing is not based on any RS. There has been no responses to the RS cited above that define Golan Heights as explicitly and factually Syrian occupied by Israel since 1967. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Let's keep it as it is, the first sentence just saying that it's a region in the Levant. I think everyone agrees that that's true. Being occupied is not, in my opinion, a defining feature; I suppose it was the Golan Heights before it was occupied, and will still be the Golan Heights if/when it stops being occupied in the future. Makeandtoss, the article already includes a quote "...the occupied Syrian Golan Heights...", so no need to change anything. Also, I looked at the first RS you listed and it has subtitle "region, Middle East" and first sentence "Golan Heights, hilly area overlooking the upper Jordan River valley on the west" so it seems our focus first on simply being a region, then on geology, then finally geopolitics mirrors at least this RS, so no need to change anything in the first place. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Golan Heights profile from the BBC. They clearly think its occupation is a defining feature. Selfstudier (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

It absolutely is a defining feature, in fact as a geopolitical entity it is the defining feature, and I hazard to guess you will find an overwhelming majority of sources discussing the Golan since 1967 to focus on that feature. This is like saying that Israel should be introduced as "a region near the Mediterranean Sea". nableezy - 18:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Selfstudier, the source you gave has first sentence "The Golan Heights is a rocky plateau in south-western Syria, about 60km (40 miles) south-west of Damascus and covers about 1,000 sq km." No politics in their first sentence either. The politics is important; that doesn't mean it has to show up in the first sentence. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Their first sentence is a big map showing the occupied area. We have one too but its kind of tiny and you can barely make out the word occupied. Not that great for a defining feature.

I also don't much like our first sentence "The Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is a region in the Levant. The region defined as the Golan Heights" with "Golan Heights" and "region" twice, looks artificial, probably the result of some past disagreement over wording.

Then it puts "as a geological and biogeographical region" first rather than "As a geopolitical region, it refers to a region (sic)" (all it needs to say is "geopolitically, it is a part of Syria") which follows. Those two could be switched around, methinks, along with dropping a few "region"s.

I'll work on that and see what I come up with. Selfstudier (talk) 20:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'd be more something like this:

The Golan Heights,[c] or simply the Golan, is a region in the Levant, geopolitically part of Syria and occupied by Israel following the Six-Day War of 1967. Illegally annexed by Israel in 1981, the area includes the western two-thirds of the Golan and part of Mount Hermon and which the international community continues to consider as occupied. Geologically and biogeographically, it is a basaltic plateau bordered by the Yarmouk River in the south, the Sea of Galilee and Hula Valley in the west, the Anti-Lebanon with Mount Hermon in the north and Wadi Raqqad in the east. Selfstudier (talk) 21:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Will just cite my prior phrasing here for comparison: "The Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is a hilly region in southwest Syria. Most of the region has been occupied by Israel since the 1967 Six-Day War, and subject to a de facto Israeli annexation in 1981. Geologically,..."

In RS GH is used as a geopolitical definition rather than geographic, thus I would be more inclined to a "region in southwest Syria". Not sure if mention of occupation should be in the opening sentence. Also two-thirds could be replaced with most. Otherwise, I could also support this. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

It is not only geopolitically part of Syria, but also historically. I also don't like the current first sentence "is a region in the Levant". It is non neutral as it gives weight to the minority pov that it isn't part of Syria. We would not say that the Gallile is in the Levant instead of Israel.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

OK, latest version:

The Golan Heights,[c] or simply the Golan, is that part of Syria occupied by Israel following the Six-Day War of 1967. Illegally annexed by Israel in 1981 but which the international community continues to consider as occupied, the area includes the western two-thirds of the Golan and part of Mount Hermon. It is a basaltic plateau bordered by the Yarmouk River in the south, the Sea of Galilee and Hula Valley in the west, the Anti-Lebanon with Mount Hermon in the north and Wadi Raqqad in the east. Selfstudier (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

If I understand things correctly, the Golan Heights is two-thirds occupied by Israel and the remaining third is still in Syria's hands? If so, then the opening sentence has to reflect that as well; the challenge is how to keep that as concise as possible. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

It does say the occupied area is two thirds? Selfstudier (talk) 13:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but the opening sentence which sets the scope of article defines it as only being the occupied part: "The Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is that part of Syria occupied by Israel following the Six-Day War of 1967." Makeandtoss (talk) 13:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

How about:

The Syrian Golan Heights,[c] or simply the Golan, was partly occupied by Israel following the Six-Day War of 1967. Illegally annexed by Israel in 1981 but which the international community continues to consider as occupied, the area includes the western two-thirds of the Golan and part of Mount Hermon. It is a basaltic plateau bordered by the Yarmouk River in the south, the Sea of Galilee and Hula Valley in the west, the Anti-Lebanon with Mount Hermon in the north and Wadi Raqqad in the east. Selfstudier (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I mean, it would work if the scope of the article is about the occupied part rather than the whole region. I would lean in to the whole region that was partly occupied; rather than the partly occupied region. I base my argument on the fact that the region is fully geopolitically Syrian according to int. law. Which do you think the scope should be? Makeandtoss (talk) 14:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am intending the scope to be the whole thing. It says it was partly occupied but describes the whole. Selfstudier (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I see what you mean but the focus of the opening sentence is on "partly occupied", implying the article is about the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights rather than the Golan Heights as a whole.

How about mixing our two versions: "The Syrian Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is a hilly region in southwest Syria, which was mostly occupied by Israel following the Six-Day War of 1967."? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sure. Selfstudier (talk) 16:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

(Replying) Another possible first sentence might be "The Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is a hilly region of geopolitical significance in the Middle East."

I'm not strongly opposed to any of the wordings. My main concern is to get a wording that won't lead to editwarring. I suppose we have to state or imply at least the general part of the world it's in, to help the reader, but I'm opposed to mentioning in the first sentence that it's Syrian territory as not everyone agrees on that and it would invite editwarring, though I take the point that it's difficult to avoid mentioning it without seeming non-neutral. It can be mentioned in a later sentence, where there's more room to describe the whole situation.

I'm also questioning the wording "illegally annexed": I think it's more neutral and factual to state that Israel passed a law to annex it and the UN General Assembly near-unanimously voted to oppose that; and that more neutral wording is too long to fit within the first sentence. International law is complex and not all countries have agreed to all international laws. Do a strong majority of the RS's use the phrasing "illegally annexed"? I suppose according to Israeli law it's legally annexed, so it doesn't sound neutral to me.

While I think we shouldn't mention in the first sentence that it's Syrian, if we do, I think it should be in a context like "Syrian territory that was captured in the six-day war", which sounds more neutral as it was undisputed territory at that time (i.e. just before the war). Alternatively, we could say something ambiguous like "The Golan Heights is a hilly region at the southwest end of Syria." Or a very short first sentence: "The Golan Heights is a hilly region. Recognized near-unanimously by the UN as part of Syria, ..." Or possibly one sentence: "The Golan Heights is a hilly region recognized near-unanimously by the UN as part of Syria." However, please get a good consensus on the talk page before putting any of these in. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Your concern is valid, but we can simply insert a note saying this is the established consensus on the talk page, and if any user wants to challenge that, they would be forced to do it here rather than edit war. Not to also mention the ECR restriction, and page protection option. As you are not opposed to any of the wordings, I think this is a good solution that takes these concerns in consideration, so now we can proceed with the previously agreed upon version discussed with Selfstudier. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I did not say I did not oppose any of the versions. I've raised objections to the version Selfstudier proposed, and I've suggested a few options which attempt to address both Selfstudier's concerns and mine; I haven't seen opposition to those options. If objections are raised to those, I could suggest more. So no, please don't put in that version at least not yet. By the way, Selfstudier (I think) said the word region appears too many times; I agree; I think some words could be deleted in the first few sentences of the current version with little or no change to the meaning.

Some other options for the first sentence: "The Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is a hilly region largely considered by the international community to remain part of Syria." Or, varying the pattern: "After the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel began a military occupation of about two-thirds of a hilly part of Syria known as the Golan Heights or simply the Golan; these terms are also applied to the part occupied." ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Or we might be able to say this: "The Golan Heights, or simply the Golan, is a hilly region recognized by a unanimous UN Security Council resolution as remaining part of Syria." ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Reading this, I think we can gain insight from the way internationally recognized Ukrainian territories are described in articles related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Compare, for example, the lede and infobox of Majdal Shams with Mariupol. Mariupol's lede states: "Mariupol is a city in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine." Perhaps articles relating to the Golan Heights should take inspiration from this and start referring to the Golan Heights as internationally recognized Syrian territory in WP:WIKIVOICE. In fact, if you read the Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts article, the infobox (disclosure: I wrote it) states that 143 UN member states recognize those oblasts as Ukrainian territory. In contrast, from what I understand, literally every UN member with the exceptions of the United States and Israel (191 UN member states) recognize the Golan Heights as Syrian territory. This article, and others related to the Golan Heights, should be written to avoid giving WP:UNDUE weight to the WP:FRINGE positions of the US and Israel, in the same way that undue weight should not be given to the Russian position regarding Ukrainian territory.

Just some food for thought. JasonMacker (talk) 23:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your comment. It seems to me that the versions I've suggested do not state the minority point of view and state only undisputed facts, so they seem to me in line with NPOV and still preferable. However, I now seem to be more firmly outnumbered, so in case anyone is in a hurry to start editing I'll reiterate that I'm not strongly opposed to any of the versions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Although: check the RS's. Of the RS's mentioned above, Britannica does not say that it's in Syria, (and seems to me to imply that it isn't), while BBC does (sorry I missed that earlier). To claim that the view that it's not in Syria is a tiny-minority view, you'd need a lot more RS's greatly outnumbering the Britannica one. A country's vote at the UN is not a source. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 01:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree. From what I have seen, most mainstream, reliable sources do not usually refer to the Golan Heights as 'Syrian territory.' I don't see why we should either. ABHammad (talk) 05:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

If a territory is considered occupied, then it is still what it was prior to its occupation, in this case, Syrian. As indicated there is a unanimous UN vote on this matter, that includes the US, so there is actually no question that it is Syrian territory. It does not actually require a discussion. Selfstudier (talk) 08:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

It does require a discussion, since editors disagree. ... HaOfa (talk) 06:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Of course they do. BBC: The Golan Heights is a rocky plateau in south-western Syria, about 60km (40 miles) south-west of Damascus and covers about 1,000 sq km. It has a political and strategic significance which belies its size. Associated Press: The Golan Heights is a strategic high ground at the southwestern corner of Syria with stunning, broad views of both Israel and Syria below. It is roughly about 1,200 square kilometers (460 square miles) and borders the Sea of Galilee. Israel captured the territory in the 1967 Mideast War and annexed it in 1981, a move that was never recognized by any country in the world. U.N. Security Council resolution 497, issued after the annexation, refers to Israel’s action as “null and void and without international legal effect.” RULAC: Since June 1967, Israel has occupied the Golan Heights, over which Syria is recognised as sovereign. If you look at scholarly sources it isnt even close, nearly every serious source says the Golan is Syrian territory. It is just made up that they do not. nableezy - 20:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

All RS describe the GH as being annexed by Israel, which clearly is a statement on its Syrianness; you can only annex foreign territories that you have occupied. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

The question is how much emphasis is given to its Syrianness, as opposed to its annexation. No need for being over-interpretative. Otherwise, we're entering a SYNTH territory here. HaOfa (talk) 06:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

The annexation was ruled null and void and without international legal effect. It remains Syrian territory occupied by Israel according to both the international community and the overwhelming majority of reliable sources. That is what this article must reflect. nableezy - 20:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

There is no synth. As demonstrated by Nableezy, RS are unanimous in explicitly stating its Syrianness. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm happy with wording like "...at the southwest corner of Syria" as Nableezy's Associated Press quote says. That should satisfy everyone? Also, as far as I understand, no objections have been raised to this one of my suggestions above, as the first sentence: "After the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel began a military occupation of about two-thirds of a hilly part of Syria known as the Golan Heights or simply the Golan; these terms are also applied to the part occupied." Also, the current version by Selfstudier looks fine to me for the first couple of sentences; but I'd like to further reduce the weight given to the U.S. decision to recognize it; the U.S. is just one country, so that could be moved out of the lead into the body of the article, and/or shortened to "...except the U.S. ...". The way it is now, at the end of a paragraph, makes it sound almost as if a U.S. decision is a fait accompli. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Although, I would soften the wording where it says "...and then annexed...", as annexation should not be presented as if it's a fact. Maybe change to "Israel occupied two thirds ... and passed a law to annex it..." It's a fact that they passed a law; I don't think it's a fact that they annexed it. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:41, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

"The Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect," so whatever you want to call that. Selfstudier (talk) 17:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

The BBC source is clear "Israel unilaterally annexed the Golan Heights in 1981." Selfstudier (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

By the way, Selfstudier, thank you very much for taking my concerns into account in the version you edited into the article; good work striving for a neutral consensus version.

OK, I just noticed that Associated Press in the quote above also says "over which Syria is recognized as sovereign." Again, to me this is not quite the same thing as saying "is in Syria". (A traveller trying to get there will find a border in the way.) Possibly in our first sentence we could say something like "The Golan Heights, over which Syria is recognized as sovereign, was occupied ..." or perhaps "over which Syria is internationally recognized as sovereign". To me, that's better than saying "is in Syria".

I'm OK with changing "annexed" to "unilaterally annexed" or various other ways of softening the wording. Also definitely after "annexed", even if softened, we have to say something about the international response, as it currently does: "... the latter being rejected by the international community which continues to consider the territory as Syrian and under Israeli occupation." That wording is fine with me, or various other ways of saying the same thing. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Effectively annexed is the phrase I most often see in scholarly sources. nableezy - 22:18, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Seems that we have a consensus to say in the opening sentence that the GH are "at the southwest corner of Syria". I would introduce this if there are no additional disagreements in the two upcoming days. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Introducing soon as agreed upon. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Kurtis: Please self-revert your latest edit that goes against this consensus that resulted from a very long discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:33, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Done. Sorry, didn't notice the discussion that took place here. Kurtis ^(talk) 03:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I also disagree with the new framing, I think the older one was more neutral. Owenglyndur (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree. This edit needs to be reverted as Makeandtoss says, except perhaps for the addition of a category. If you want to argue for that edit, first revert it, then start a discussion on this page (here or in a new section) and only if a new consensus is reached can the wording be changed. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

After it gets reverted, I suggest putting in a comment in the wikitext like <!-- consensus is "at the southwest corner of Syria" here; please discuss on talk page before modifying or adding to this --> like what Makeandtoss suggested above. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sounds like a good idea. That way other editors won't make the same mistake as me. Kurtis ^(talk) 03:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Kurtis, and thanks Coppertwig for the good suggestion. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I see that "effectively annexed" has been changed to "annexed". This seems to me to contradict the discussion above. For example, the source linked in the article by Edgar S. Marshall says "The law had the practical effect of annexing the territory to Israel although the Israeli action did not formally annex the Golan." I think it should say something like "practically", "effectively" or "unilaterally" before "annexed". See also Nableezy's comment above about "effectively". It doesn't look redundant to me. I'd appreciate it if whoever deleted this word would put it back in. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I restored it. nableezy - 20:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Under Landmarks, below the pictures of Gamla Nature Reserve, I think it’s important to mention that the pictures are featuring the winter views of the region (during the winter). From April to November it has a very different look to it. it’s getting dry and yellow. דולב חולב (talk) 14:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Do we really have to be very precise about the date of a picture?

I mean, you can see the date it was created by clicking on the picture.PAper GOL (talk) 20:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think it’s important to distinguish the very different views from the winter to the long summers. דולב חולב (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I know it’s important for the locals.

they’re always talking about how different are the views in this area and in Israel between summer and winter. דולב חולב (talk) 14:25, 21 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

The files seem to have been created in April, if I'm interpreting the data correctly. They look more green than yellow to me. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

It seems reasonable to me to leave off the date, or to put the month and year the photo was taken in parentheses at the end of the caption, or there may be other alternatives. I'm not sure whether there are guidelines about this. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Rather than reverting material into and out of the lead, how about the following as a compromise, to keep the lead short: Change the first sentence of the paragraph to "The earliest evidence of human habitation on the Golan dates to the Upper Paleolithic period; later came the small kingdom of Geshur." Also, after mention of Alexander the Great and before mention of the Caliphate, shorten the others to "Intervening periods occurred involving the Itureans, Hasmoneans, Roman Empire and Ghassanids." ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think there are more important and relevant aspects to the history of the Golan Heights than a biblical territory who only some scholars think it existed as a city-state 3,000 years ago. Such examples include Zahir al-Umar's semi-autonomous state and the Ayyubid Nimrod Castle. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

If I understand you right, you mean Geshur might not have existed. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) OK, in that case I withdraw my suggestion about mentioning Geshur in the lead: it would be hard to shorten it to just a few words if there's that kind of uncertainty. However, for the other periods, I think my suggestion actually shortens rather than lengthens the lead, so as far as I understand you don't oppose the second suggestion (correct me if I'm wrong). Actually, I'd like to include a little more information: how about "At different times, the area was controlled or inhabited by Arab or Aramaic Itureans; Hasmoneans and Jews; the Roman Empire; and Christian Arab Ghassanids." This would replace about two or three sentences of the lead. By the way, if there's scholarly disagreement, I suggest getting that mentioned in the main body of the article, as it seems to me to say that Geshur and Hasmonean periods did occur. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 15:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

It might not have existed as a city-state or kingdom 3,000 years ago. As for your other suggestion, although I think it is important indeed to remove two or three sentence from the lede, I think putting all of these civilizations and giving them equal weight might not be representative of their actual importance, example: Hasmonean kingdom lasted for a century, while Ghassanid kingdom lasted for four; the Golan Heights was much more central to the Ghassanids than that Hasmonean kingdom; etc. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

If I may intervene, your assumptions appear to be wholly incorrect. For the best of my knowledge there is no controversy over the existence of the kingdom of Geshur, and the Hasmonean kingdom lasted nearly a century and a half, followed by the rule of King Herod and his descendants, making it 2 centuries of continuous Jewish rule until the destruction of the Second Temple. Even if we don't nitpick over the decades, the Hasmonean Kingdom was the beginning of the Jewish presence in the Golan Heights which lasted undisturbed for an additional 6 centuries, until the end of the Byzantine period, as is attested by multiple synagogues scattered over the entire geographical unit. As such, the demographic and historical importance of the Hasmonean rule in the Golan Heights is paramount. Uppagus (talk) 13:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

"More recently, Juha Pakkala (2010; 2013) criticized the extensive scholarly discussion of Geshur, highlighting the minimal historical information we have about this kingdom, which is entirely derived from the biblical narrative with no further historical source to support it (see also Hafþórsson 2006: 235–36)." [6]

As demonstrated above, there is actually indeed controversy over Geshur kingdom's existence. As for the Hasmonean kingdom, its presence did not last for a century and a half over the Golan Heights, as it was only reached in a campaign by Alexander Jannaeus, and seems unknown for how long he had held it. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

The view of Juha Pakkala s not widely accepted and therefore is a fringe view. And you did not respond to the main argument referring to the historical and demographic importance of the Hasmonean kingdom in the region. Uppagus (talk) 14:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Presence of synagogues does not necessarily tie them to the Hasmonean kingdom. The RS did not say they were fringe, Pakkala and Hafþórsson are two notable scholars, which proves the lack of consensus and the presence, indeed, of controversy. Either way this is being overblown attention over other more relevant history aspects of the Golan, including its more recent and relevant history. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I did not claim that synagogues tied the Golan heights to the Hasmonean kingdom, I was saying that with the Hasmonean kingdom came the Jewish presence which remained uninterrupted unti the end of the Byzantine period. As such the antiquity of the Jewish presence in the Golan Heights should remain. The RS referred to the mentioned scholars, and then mentioned Nadav Naaman, also a notable scholar, who rejected the view you are promoting, and then even mentioned that Pakkala himself admits that the biblical account of Geshur could not have been completely invented. In the conclusion of the article the authors see no reason to reject the existence of the kingdom of Geshur. The lede already includes an extremely detailed description of the Golan Heights during the modern period. Uppagus (talk) 15:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Makeandtoss, it seems to me that the quote you give of Pakkala doesn't seem to say or imply that Geshur may not have existed, but merely to criticize the amount of time spent discussing it when we know so little about it, so it seems to me that my first suggestion is still valid; however, if this is not accepted, another alternative might be "...the Upper Paleolithic period; later, as the Bible recounts, came the small kingdom of Geshur."

It seems to me that leaving something out entirely is a worse error than having the same small number of words as another longer period. If the Jews were there for several centuries, that justifies using about the same number of words for them as for Christian Arab Ghassanids; i.e. just one word for "Hasmonean" and three words for the Jews i.e. "Hasmoneans and Jews". (in my suggestion beginning "At different times..." above.) I also think it's OK to list periods without necessarily giving the proportional number of words as the length of the period. I think it's interesting information for the reader whether Jews, Arabs, or Christians had a major presence there at some time in the past even if it was only a century, and deserves mention. If we were making a list of presidents of the U.S. we wouldn't leave one out, or make their picture smaller or shorten their name, just because they were only president for a year. We might write a shorter paragraph about them, or possibly even a longer paragraph because we would have to explain why they were only there for a year. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

It just needs mentioning in passing as one of or something like that, Geshur link is more than enough for a biblical account. Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Uppagus To say that it the Golan became "populated by Jews" is erroneous and lacking in context as the dynasty enacted a policy of forced conversion on the native population. I have changed this wording per sources to reflect this in continuity with the proceeding sentence which expands on intricacies of later rulership. JJNito197 (talk) 18:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Based on some comments above and other information, I amend my suggestion to "At different times, the area was controlled or inhabited by Arab or Aramaic Itureans; Jewish Hasmoneans; and the Roman Empire with over-arching rule over first Jewish Herodians, then Christian Arab Ghassanids." I think this is a fair compromise. Has anyone suggested (or would now like to suggest) anything that does a better job of taking into account (even if not perfectly) the various concerns expressed in this discussion? ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree it could also be more succinct for continuity purposes; we could streamline the content as (controlled by) the "...Itureans, Hasmoneans, Romans and Ghassanids" before expanding on the most noteworthy (Arab) Muslim conquest and later (Turkish) Ottoman occupation; this leaves out who inhabited or subjugated the region and its residents entirely. We could also describe it as inhabited by Arabs (with emphasis) per Makeandtoss, as the length of habitation is unequal compared to other ethnic groups including Jews if counting the Iturean, Ghassanid, Muslim Arab, and recent Arab rule. It is worth noting the point about Ghassanid and Muslim rule which doesn't mention the religious change in demographics; only when it concerns Hasmonean or Herodian (Roman) rule is this noted with the dubious use of "populated by Jews". This could either be because the Ghassanid Arab Christian or Muslim Arab conquest didn't force conversion, but we will never know because it is not expanded upon. This makes this sentence out of place, as well as the proposed emphasis on Hasmonean (Jewish) affinity to the Golan which is a side note in comparison, especially as we are talking about events that took place more than a millennium ago. JJNito197 (talk) 23:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@JJNito197 You keep mentioning the Ghassanids, this is very puzzling. If you are treating them as residents of the Golan, then considering the fact that their center was not in the Golan Heights but in Syria, their presence is much less prominent compared to that of other groups such as the Jews. If you treat them as rulers, they served as Foederati under the Byzantines, and once again they were not prominent in the region. A testimony to this is the location of the few sites attributed to them being almost exclusively along the eastern border of the Golan. I wonder, maybe they should be omitted from the article altogether. I also find it puzzling that you put so much emphasis on the early Muslim rule, when it is well documented that there was a massive decline in the population of the Golan during their rule. So absent is their influence on the region that only in four sites did they unearth any finds from the early Muslim period (Hartal, Moshe. 1989. Northen Golan: An Archaeological Survey as a Source fro the History of the Region (Hebrew). Qazrin. P.135) and the entire region was left to nomads. On the other hand it is well attested that Jewish communities continued to flourish until the mid 8^th century (Maoz Z.U. 1992. Qazrin In Ephraim Stern et al. eds. The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land. (Hebrew). Jerusalem, Israel Exploration Society & Carta. P. 1426, Killebrew, Anne. Ibid. P. 1427-1428). Uppagus (talk) 14:11, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

"Golan Heights but in Syria" Golan Heights is in Syria. Palestine is Syria if we want to go that far.

"along the eastern border of the Golan" if you mean that eastern border of Golan after the 1967, then that would be still the Golan since Israel occupies two-thirds of it, so that would be the Syrian third. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Previously this wording didn't specify who inhabited the region, which saves us the debate. We should change it to just listing the empires and rulers instead per the talk page consensus and proposal of Makeandtoss which I have now edited in. Further information about the demographics should be given due weight elsewhere and we shouldn't muddle this up with who ruled the region as this is not synonymous. Due content should be edited in the article but not in the lead for continuity purposes with the subject which relates to geography foremostly. JJNito197 (talk) 17:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

"entirely derived from the biblical narrative with no further historical source to support it" is pretty clear in saying that its existence is dubious at best, unless we take biblical or other religious mythologies at face value. Speaking of, recently I have trimmed tons of mythologies relating to the origin of Arabs at Arabs. Mythologies can be mentioned in encyclopaedias but they should not take precedence over actual historical facts.

As for your suggestion, I think it is more editorial/journalistic than encylopaedic, the type one would expect to read in a newspaper. Not to mention the existing concern of overamplifying the Hasmonean existence there that barely lasted a few decades in the Golan over the more recent four century rule of the Ghassanids who had their entire political power base there.

I agree with JJNito197 that it is better to mention the empires/civilizations rather than the populations as is normal practice in most historical regions/countries.

This summarization would need more nuance, we can't just group a brief rule by a small kingdom with a centuries-long rule by the Roman Empire and later the Ghassanid kingdom, not to mention the subsequent caliphates.

My suggestion would be, not to be taken literally: (controlled by) the "...Itureans, and Hasmoneans, before becoming part of the Roman Empire. In the fourth century AD, it was home to the Ghassanid kingdom, which had its base there. It later became part of the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Mamluk and Ottoman empires. [something here to be expanded about them to give due weight]"

Mentioning Muslim [and Ottoman] conquest without mentioning Greek or Persian or other conquests would be misleading. Also now after having read the body, there is a clear underreporting of the Islamic period. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Makeandtoss We should not ignore the fact that, as has been demonstrated, Pakkala does not represent the consensus, nor even an accepted scholarly view. Furthermore, you did not address the fact that even Na'aman, who is no stranger to biblical criticism, does not accept Pakkala's thesis, and the existence of Geshur is not seen as mythology, rather as an historical fact.

Regarding the political base of the Ghassanids, You are mistaken, the Ghassanid power base was in Damascus and the environs. If their power base was in the Golan, they would have left a much greater mark. Oddly enough, even the one sentence about them in the article has no source, so please supply sources if you have any to add.

And it appears that there is more than ample reporting of the Islamic period, simply due to the fact that the Islamic period provided almost no archaeological finds, unless you mean the Jewish village of Qazrin, which you may be right about, it should be discussed more broadly. Uppagus (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

No such thing as “representing consensus”. Consensus by definition is general agreement. If there is disagreement then there is no general agreement. As for ruins, clearly the most important historical site in the Golan is the Nimrod Fortress, an Islamic ruin built by the Ayyubids who would later overrun a European colonial crusader state in their midst. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@JJNito197 On the contrary, the erroneous claim is the one you present. See Syon, Danny (2014). Gamla III: The Shmarya Gutmann Excavations, 1976–1989. Finds and Studies. Vol. 1. Jerusalem: Israel Antiquities Authority Reports, No. 56. ISBN 978-965-406-503-0. p. 4: "Scholarly consensus holds that the Golan became populated by Jews following the conquests of Jannaeus in c. 80 BCE and as a direct result of these conquests."

And while it is true that Josephus states that the itureans were converted by Alexander Jannaeus, most scholars agree that this was anti-Hasmonean propaganda, and forced conversions did not occur, rather the Jewish population came from Judea, See Leibner below and Kasher, Aryeh. 1988. Jews, Idumaeans, and Ancient Arabs: Relations of the Jews in Eretz-Israel with the Nations of the Frontier and the Desert during the Hellenistic and Roman Era (332 BCE—70 CE). Tubingen: Mohr Siebeck. Pp. 39-45, Dar, Shimon. 1991. The Geographical Region of the Hasmonean-Iturean Encounter. Cathedra 59: 3–11, (In Hebrew with English abstract). Recent archaeological finds support this, 'thus the scholars who reject Josephus' report as entirely unreliable appear to be correct'. See Leibner, Uzi. 2009. Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee : An Archaeological Survey of the Eastern Galilee. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck. Pp. 321, 336 and Hartal, Moshe. 2005. The Land of the Ituraeans, Qazrin. (Hebrew) P. 374, who conclude that there are no signs that the Iturean population converted at all as opposed to the Idumeans who converted although most probably not through coersion, see sources above. Uppagus (talk) 13:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Makeandtoss, your suggested wording looks OK to me. Regarding Geshur, since some editors seem intent on including it, I think we need to compromise and mention it very briefly. I suggest "...Paleolithic period; later was the biblical Geshur." If we mention Geshur I think we need to mention the Bible because if it says Geshur existed without mentioning the Bible some readers might get the impression there's evidence for Geshur outside the Bible, and a wikilink is not sufficient to clear that up. Also, mentioning the Bible fits in with the earlier part of the sentence, which is about evidence. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 15:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Or better: "...later the Bible mentions Geshur". ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

OK, I think we might have a consensus that to keep the lead short and balanced, in the lead we won't mention the religion or ethnicity of the population at various times, but we'll only mention the rulers. Religion and ethnicity can be described in the main body of the article, under appropriate headings. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I like the "biblical Geshur" suggestion. But now rereading the ancient history section, why are we mentioning Geshur but not the Amorites or the Canaanites who preceded them, particularly as there is actual archaeological evidence for them in the Amarna letters? My concern is that we're giving this [alleged] civilization undue weight. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

How about "Later, ancient writings indicate Amorites, Canaanites and Geshur in the region at different times." instead of the sentence about Geshur? Ancient writings includes both the Amarna letters and the Bible. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply