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The issue of deletions on Belief in jinn and belief in Islam by VenusFeuerFalle can be found at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Jinn_2 --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bookku (talk) 02:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
for anyone interested there does not seem to be any discussion in the Jinn article talk page archives about belief in Jinn being or not being a necessary belief in Islam. (Bookku suggested I look this up.) --Louis P. Boog (talk) 15:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Dispute Resolution discussion closed "due to lack of response by one editor". i.e. VenusFeuerFalle. Volunteer moderator Robert McClenon ended with this:
Closed due to lack of response by one editor. The filing editor has stated that he wants to make three edits to the article. The other editor did not reply. The filing editor should make the edits boldly. If the edits are reverted, he may follow the advice in the discussion failure essay, and may note this proceeding, or they may submit a Request for Comments,which should be neutrally worded, and preferably in three parts. I am willing to provide assistance in submitting an RFC if requested. Do not edit-war. Report disruptive editing at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
So I, the filing editor (Louis P. Boog), made the edits boldly here and ... VenusFeuerFalle, who couldn't be bothered to make a response to the Dispute resolution discussion, reverted the edits with the summary "this was not the resolution".
My questions for the deleter @VenusFeuerFalle:
Not really, since in Islam there is no official clergy and who is trustworthy and who is not is eventually up for the individual. Apart from this claim to be factually wrong, it is besides the point since it is against the neutral point of view policy mentioned above. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)ReplyRegarding Islamic studies, we must understand that in Islam, the opinions of great scholars hold much weight.
I would suggest adding this paragraph to the lead: "The word 'jinn' and its variants are mentioned 29 times in the Qur'an,[1][2] and one of its chapters is even named after them.[3]" Or at least it should be mentioned in the lead that there is a whole chapter in the Qur'an that talks about the jinn.[4]
Here are some sources that might be of interest:
... These two passages provide the strongest textual verification of the existence of jinn within Islam. Belief in the existence of jinn is considered equivalent to belief in the existence of angels, one of the primary articles of faith in Islam, and consequently, to disbelieve in them would be heretical. The majority of Muslims believe jinn to be a species of spiritual beings created by God out of smokeless fire long before he created humans out of mud. God gave jinn the earth to inhabit. They are drawn to both good and evil.[5]
In Islam the existence of jinns is axiomatic: according to Muslim belief, jinns were created of fire, in contrast to the angels, who were created from light. They are considered more powerful than men, but less powerful than angels. The jinn is capable of humanly impossible tasks, and the intelligence of the jinn is considered much superior to that of humans. The belief in jinns is so strong in Muslim and Arab thought that Muslim theologians judge disbelief in jinns as heresy – except for the Mu'tazila, who dare to question their existence.[6]
The jinn are considered by some authorities to be an integral part of the Islamic faith due to their inclusion in the Quran.[7]
Jinn are an integral part of both traditional and Gnostic Islamic belief. They are referred to 25 times in the Qur'an, not counting surah 72 (“The Jinn”).[8]
The jinn are an integral part of the Muslim tradition from the Qur'an onwards and thus are inescapable even for the modernists (who often see them as internalized psychological states).[9]
... Some Muslims educated in the modern Western tradition maintain that mentions of angels and jinn in the Koran should be taken allegorically rather than literally, but they are in a small minority, and even they never quite lose their fear of the jinn.[10]
According to traditional Islamic faith, djinns were created by Allah out of smokeless fire (Qur'an 15:27). As such, Muslims generally consider these creatures part and parcel of the living world and believe that they actively participate in the lives and social interactions of humans, as do angels and Iblis (i.e., Satan) for that matter.[11]
Jinn are supernatural entities created by God before the creation of Adam. Whereas Adam was created from clay, the jinn were created "from the fire of a scorching wind" (Q 15:27) or "from fire free of smoke" (Q 55:15). They are mentioned several times in the Qur'an as well as in numerous other genres, including sira (biography), hadith (tradition), kalam (theology), and adab (literature). Belief in their existence continues in many predominantly Islamic countries to the present day, and fascination with these creatures in the West is evidenced by their appearance in popular movies and novels. Although they feature prominently in folklore, jinn are also taken quite seriously by Muslim scholars, both medieval and modern. Like humans, jinn have free will, and although many of them were converted to Islam by the Prophet Muhammad, others despaired at the coming of the new religion.[12]
Common narratives usually portray jinns as evil or mischievous, but they can also appear to be as morally complex as human beings. Muslim scholars have taken their existence seriously, even considering the legal question of whether jinns and humans could intermarry; Mālik, foundational figure for the Māliki legal school, argued that such a marriage was not itself a violation of sacred law, but added that it seemed undesirable. One hadith scholar in the eighteenth century presented a narration whose chain of transmission included two jinn reporters.[13]
Peace.TheEagle107 (talk) 05:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
References
It is enough evidence that the jinn exist since there is a whole Surah in the Quran that talks about the jinn. The word "jinn" was mentioned in the Quran twenty-two times. The word "Al-Jann" was mentioned seven times,
Following Bookku's suggestion that I do research in WP:RS I looked up Jinn in the wikipedia library and found material in Encyclopaedia of Islam New Edition Online (EI-2 English) I think should go in the Exegesis subsection. It seems to indicate pretty strongly that『the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted』in early Islam. I would just add parts of it to the article now but that would distract from the discussion at hand.
II. In official Islam the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted, as it is to This day, and the full consequences implied by their existence were worked out. Their legal status in all respects was discussed and fixed, and the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property, were examined. Stories of the loves of d̲j̲inn and human beings were evidently of perennial interest. The Fihrisl gives the titles of sixteen of these (308) and they appear in all the collections of short tales (cf., e.g., Dāwūd al-Anṭākī, Tazyīn al-aswāḳ , Cairo 1308, 181 ff.; al-Sarrād̲j̲, Maṣārīʿ al-ʿus̲h̲s̲h̲āḳ , Istanbul 1301, 286 ff.). There are many stories, too, of relations between saints and d̲j̲inn; cf. D. B. Macdonald, Religious attitude and life in Islam, 144 ff. A good summary of the question is given in Badr al-Dīn al-S̲h̲iblī (d. 769/1368), Ākām al-mard̲j̲ān fī aḥkām al-d̲j̲ān (Cairo 1326); see also Nöldeke’s review in ZDMG, lxiv, 439 ff. Few even of the Muʿtazila ventured to doubt the existence of ¶ d̲j̲inn, and only constructed different theories of their nature and their influence on the material world. The earlier philosophers, even al-Fārābī, tried to avoid the question by ambiguous definitions. But Ibn Sīnā, in defining the word, asserted flatly that there was no reality behind it. The later believing philosophers used subterfuges, partly exegetical and partly metaphysical. Ibn K̲h̲aldūn, for example, reckoned all references to the d̲j̲inn among the socalled mutas̲h̲ābih passages of the Ḳurʾān, the knowledge of which Allāh has reserved to himself (Ḳurʾān, III, 5). These different attitudes are excellently treated in the Dict , of techn. terms , i, 261 ff.; cf. also al-Rāzī, Mafātīḥ, lxxii.
--Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
References
here (in my Sandbox).
Includes my version and bits from TheEagle107 --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Note: all specific changes/proposed edits are in the blue highlight of {{talkquote| to distinguish them.
@Bookku: notifying you first Bookku for your comments before sending general notice to all involved users. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 20:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
who "worked out" the consequences implied by their
Jinn have been called "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition or faith, "completely accepted" in official Islam; prominently featured in folklore, but also taken "quite seriously" by both medieval and modern Muslim scholars
Muslims accept the existence of the jinn as part of their faith.[1]
The belief in jinn is very much alive in Morocco and like the belief in angels and the devil it is part of Islamic dogma.[2]
Islamic dogma lists humans as the third spiritual creature created by Allah after angels and jinn.[3]
Openly expressing of doubt about the existence of j̲inn was not common even amidst the Muʿtazila; and among the erstwhile philosophers, al-Fārābī also, tried to skip the question with vague definitions. Ibn Sīnā was an outlier-- he outrightly rejected their existence.[4] In present-day Islam, only a "small number" believes that jinn in the Quran should be understood symbolically instead of literally. (Mark Sedgwick (2006). Islam & Muslims: A Guide to Diverse Experience in a Modern World. Hachette UK. p. 72. ISBN 9781473643918.)
EI-2-English
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).Hello everyone! Please check out the citation number [3], which have been used several times as a reference.
ORIGINAL: (in German)
Dämonen – im Arabischen ginn genannt – werden in der islamischen Offenbarung vielfach erwähnt. Am prominentesten treten sie in Sure 72 in Erscheinung, deren Titel al-Ginn lautet. Auch weitere Verse handeln von ihnen. Der Ausdruck ginn dient in zahlreichen Sprachen des islamischen Kulturraums bis heute als Oberbegriff zur Bezeichnung von Geistern.“ In Anschluss an ihre Erwähnung im Koran haben die ginn Eingang in die spätere islamische Überlieferung gefunden. Die sunna erwähnt sie vielfach. Die relevanten Hadite sind gemäß muslimischer Auffassung derart gut belegt, dass Fälschungen ausgeschlossen werden können (tawätur al-ahbär). Man kann die Existenz der ginn nicht in Abrede stellen, ohne den Vorwurf des kufr (Unglaube) auf sich zu ziehen und aus der Gemeinschaft der Gläubigen ausgeschlossen zu werden (takfīr). Neben Koran und Prophetenworten unterstreichen zusätzliche, im Lauf der Jahrhunderte entstandene schriftliche Quellen die weit verbreitete Akzeptanz der Existenz von Dämonen in der islamischen Welt. Selbst in modernen muslimischen Gesellschaften ist der Ǧinn-Glaube tief verankert. Infolge der Migration aus dem islamischen Kulturraum lassen sich die entsprechenden Auffassungen auch im Westen zunehmend beobachten. M. Dols macht darauf aufmerksam, dass der Ǧinn-Glaube kein strikt islamisches Konzept ist. Er beinhaltet vielmehr zahllose Elemente einer Götzenverehrung, wie sie Muḥammads Gegner zur Zeit der ǧāhiliyya in Mekka praktizierten. Gemäß F. Meier integrierte der junge Islam bei seiner raschen Expansion viele heidnische Gottheiten in sein System, indem er sie zu Dämonen degradierte. Auch T. Fahd thematisierte diese Einflüsse: Im Lauf der arabischen Eroberungen kamen die in der islamischen Offenbarung teilweise dokumentierten Auffassungen zum Geisterglauben mit entsprechenden Vorstellungen aus anderen Kulturen und religiösen Bekenntnissen in Kontakt. Neben Vorstellungen aus dem Mazdaismus und dem Gnostizismus im weitesten Sinn lassen sich v. a. Elemente aus dem Judentum nachweisen.TRANSLATION: (in English), automatically translated by Google Translate.
Demons – called ginn in Arabic – are mentioned many times in Islamic revelation. They appear most prominently in Sura 72, the title of which is al-Ginn. Other verses are also about them. The term ginn still serves as a generic term to describe spirits in numerous languages of the Islamic cultural area. Following their mention in the Koran, the ginn found their way into later Islamic tradition. The sunnah mentions it many times. According to Muslim opinion, the relevant Hadith are so well documented that falsifications can be ruled out (tawätur al-ahbär). One cannot deny the existence of the ginn without incurring the accusation of kufr (disbelief) and being excluded from the community of believers (takfīr). In addition to the Koran and the words of the prophets, additional written sources that have emerged over the centuries underline the widespread acceptance of the existence of demons in the Islamic world. Even in modern Muslim societies, the Jinn belief is deeply rooted. As a result of migration from the Islamic cultural area, the corresponding views can also be increasingly observed in the West. M. Dols points out that the Jinn belief is not a strictly Islamic concept. Rather, it contains countless elements of idol worship, as practiced by Muḥammad's opponents in Mecca during the time of jahiliyya. According to F. Meier, in its rapid expansion, the young Islam integrated many pagan deities into its system by degrading them to demons. T. Fahd also discussed these influences: In the course of the Arab conquests, the views on belief in spirits, some of which were documented in Islamic revelation, came into contact with corresponding ideas from other cultures and religious beliefs. In addition to ideas from Mazdaism and Gnosticism in the broadest sense, v. a. Detecting elements from Judaism.
Tobias Nünlist, "Dämonenglaube im Islam". p. 1.
In addition, recently, I have found something interesting, which I think should be included as well in the article body. Among the achievements of the Hanafi-Sufi scholar Mustafa ibn Kamal al-Din al-Bakri (d. 1749/1162) that he took the general covenant from all the denominations of jinns, and initiated seven of the kings of the jinn.[1][2] This is also mentioned here & here on the Arabic Wikipedia.--TheEagle107 (talk) 22:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
“ | are you trying to say that despite using 'Tobias Nünlist' as a substantial source in the articles, point in the above highlighted part of 'Tobias Nünlist' is not given due weight in the article | ” |
— Bookku |
Yes, exactly! 👍
“ | Your suggestion on Mustafa ibn Kamal al-Din al-Bakri (d. 1749/1162) is separate point you wish you want to be included? | ” |
— Bookku |
Yes, exactly! 👍--TheEagle107 (talk) 05:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Other spectacular achievements were that he took the ‛ahd al-'amm from all the tawa'if al-jinn. In his turn, al-Bakri initiated seven of the kings of the jinn.
The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion |
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The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion is, Both sides seem to maintain neutrality of the article, the main consideration before proposed RfC likely to be WP:DUE how much to cover.User:VenusFeuerFalle says (in the article-body Jinn) importance of jinn-belief (in Islam- and Muslim world) has been highlighted sufficiently already. User:Louis P. Boog says that is not sufficient enough and important scope exists to increase the weight. Similarly in case of rejection of Jinn, VFF feels present coverage is sufficient where as LPB finds some scope on that count too. Highlighted sentences in LPB's sandbox will be for consideration. Bookku (talk) 07:33, 15 June 2024 (UTC) as discussion facilitatorReply |
(most of this "Pre-RfC" procedure is following the advise of Bookku )
@VenusFeuerFalle, do you wish to contest any of the sources added in the Proposed rewrite?
What if any parts of the rewrite are you willing to accept? (I will be available to reply off and on May 6 and May 7.) --Louis P. Boog (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
and more recently revivalist preachers Abul A'la Maududi, and Fethullah Gülen,
since it sounds like lenghty quotes from the sources. Taking a greater look at the source I furthermore doubt that this (Hachette Livre | Hachette Livre is the world’s third-largest trade publisher | Hachette.com) is a reliable publisher.Publicly expressed doubt of the existence of j̲inn was uncommon even among the Muʿtazila; and among the earlier philosophers, even al-Fārābī, tried to avoid the question with ambiguous definitions. Ibn Sīnā was an exception -- he flatly denied their reality. In contemporary Islam, only a "small minority" believe that jinn in the Quran should be interpreted allegorically rather than literally
There is an example form the Zahiris, from the Hanbalites, and pointed at a consensus among Asharites in general that jinn are undeniable part of Islam. I do not see why there needs to be a more vague discussion about whether or not they are part of the creed or not or who may have denied them. The latter is problematic from a research view point as there is no sufficient analysis on who might have denied them. It is, for example, not clear if Maturidites consider jinn to be real or a merel psychological phenomena, as mentioned next in the sectionBelief in jinn is not included among the six articles of Islamic faith, as belief in angels is. Nontheless, many Muslim scholars, including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya and the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm, believe they are essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran. It is generally accepted by the majority of Muslim scholars that jinn can possess individuals. This is considered to be part of the doctrines (aqidah) of the "people of the Sunnah" (ahl as-sunnah wal-jammah'a) in the tradition of Ash'ari
it is furthermore not clear, how important the belief in jinn as external instead of internal things has been. In later Islamic theology, such as the writings of Ghazali, we see that "metaphors" have been considered "real", further blurring the lines between metaphor and reality, as mentioned in the Shaitan article: <blokquote>" Al-Ghazali (c. 1058 – 1111) reconciles the literal meaning (Ẓāhir) with Avicennan cosmology based on reason. According to the philosophers (falsafa), the word 'angel' refers to "celestial intellects" or "immaterial souls". Ghazali opined that devils might be of a similar nature, that is, that they are celestial immaterial objects influencing human minds.""Māturīdī focuses on the dynamics between jinn and humans based on Quran 72:6. He states that seeking refuge among the jinn increases fear and anxiety, however, not because of the jinn, but due to the psychological dependence of the individual towards external powers"
Facing the complicated matter about the relationship between "reality" and "metaphor" in Islamic theological discourse, I think we should not overestimate the discussion about the reality of jinn. Jinn are an integral part of Islam, this is nowhere to be denied and the article as it is now, makes this clear. However, the nature of these jinn is up to debate. As also mentioned int he article, some consider 'jinn' to be a neutral term for angels. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Reference list for this section (reflist-talk) |
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References
La croyance aux djinns étant acceptée par l'islam, leurs occurrences dans les textes ne peuvent pas être interprétées comme indices de syncrétisme religieux.[The belief in jinns being accepted by Islam, their occurrences in texts cannot be interpreted as indications of religious syncretism.] La croyance aux djinns est du reste admise par l'Islâm orthodoxe.[Belief in jinns is also accepted by orthodox Islam.] Comme le rappelle Hamid Salmi, « Si les Djinns ne sont pas mentionnés parmi les cinq croyances nécessaires, il reste que leur existence est de foi en Islam puisque le Coran en parle à maintes reprises », ce qui signifie qu'ils sont donc familiers à tous les musulmans et qu'on ne peut les ignorer.[As Hamid Salmi recalls, "If the Jinns are not mentioned among the five necessary beliefs, the fact remains that their existence is of faith in Islam since the Koran speaks of them many times", which means that they are therefore familiar to all Muslims and that we cannot ignore them.] Некоторые неграмотные люди отрицают существование джиннов, однако слова «джинн» и «шайтан» вместе с производными от них словами использованы в Коране соответственно 29 и 85 раз, поэтому вера в их существование является обязательной для каждого мусульманина.[Some illiterate people deny the existence of jinn, but the words “jinn” and “shaitan”, along with words derived from them, are used 29 and 85 times in the Quran, respectively, so belief in their existence is mandatory for every Muslim.] Мўмин-мусулмонлар жин деб аталувчи махлуқотлар борлигига иймон келтирадилар. Уларни оддий ҳолатларда кўриб бўлмайди. Биз улар ҳақидаги маълумотларни энг ишончли манбалар, Қуръони Карим ва ҳадиси шарифлардан оламиз. .... Шу билан бирга қадимда ҳам, ҳозирда ҳам жинларни умуман инкор этадиганлар бор. Улар жин ҳақидаги ҳар бир сўзни афсона, бекорчи гап дейишади. .... Ислом эса жин ҳақида худди бошқа масалалардаги каби ҳақиқатни баён қилади. Ислом жин борлигини исбот қилиб, у ҳақидаги тўғри тасаввурни баён этиб, нотўғри тушунчаларни рад этади. .......... Мўмин-мусулмон инсоннинг Қуръонда келган ҳар бир хабарга иймон келтириши фарз. Худо кўрсатмасин, Қуръондаги бирор хабарга шубҳа билан қараш, ишонмаслик кофирлик бўлади. Шундан келиб чиқилса, жин ҳақида Қуръонда оят келиши уларнинг борлигига иймон келтиришни барча мусулмонларга фарз қилади.[Believers and Muslims believe in the existence of creatures called jinn. They cannot be seen in ordinary situations. We get information about them from the most reliable sources, the Holy Qur'an and the hadith. .... At the same time, there are those who deny jinn altogether, both in ancient times and now. They call every word about jinn a myth, an idle talk. .... And Islam declares the truth about the jinn just like in other matters. Islam proves the existence of the jinn, explains the correct idea about it and rejects the misconceptions. .......... It is obligatory for a Muslim believer to believe in every message in the Qur'an. God forbid, doubting or disbelieving a message in the Qur'an is disbelief. It follows from this that the occurrence of a verse about jinn in the Qur'an makes it obligatory for all Muslims to believe in their existence.] سراسر دنیا و مسلمانان به وجود جن اعتقاد دارند. مسلمانان معتقد هستند که جن هم مانند انسان روز قیامت در بارگاه الهی قضاوت میشود.[All over the world and Muslims believe in the existence of jinn. Muslims believe that jinn will be judged in the divine court on the day of judgment.] |
@ VenusFeuerFalle, @Louis P. Boog, @ TheEagle107
and"You can say Jinn are the “demons of Islam”. A Qur'ānic chapter (72) is named after them. Please note also that there is not a single source in the whole article that says that jinn are mythical creatures. Anyone who objects to that must show me the source along with the text."
there is good reason to assume that @TheEagle107 is not here to build an encyclopedia but to further personal religions views. I am also waiting for over 3 weeks not for them to adress the points I raised, instead, the User added new discussions or talked about ther personal opinions. For my part, I decided to go with Wikipedia:Avoiding difficult users, until the User complays with the proper protocol of the talkpage usage. And edits not confirming to Wikipedia guidlines will be, of course, still reverted. Ignorance does not provide someone with a greencard. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply" For detailed information about the jinn and their relation with humankind, see Essentials of the Islamic Faith."
Hello everyone, I would like to suggest removing this section from the article, because it gives too much weight to present the views of other religions, while the main topic of the article is jinninIslam, NOT comparative mythology! According to Islamic belief, jinn are REAL creatures, not mythical or legendary creatures like unicorns and centaurs. The section seems to me irrelevant, and a combination of WP:OR & WP:FRINGE. So I suggest deleting this section completely or just moving it to Comparative mythology, or to any other appropriate article.--TheEagle107 (talk) 19:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Important articles content stages {{dif||}} since starting of this section discussion: |
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1) dif before first removal of sectionComparative mythology 2) Brief moment of Section removal (by TheEagle107) stage which is restored and pruned and updated by VFF further in following stages |
Bookku (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Relisting:Above discussion deserves inputs at least from few more users (before we go for RfC) that too preferably from users who contributed to related articles so they know the nuances better. Hence relisting the question with following brief synopsis of above discussion. for details pl. refer above.
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1) dif before first removal of sectionComparative mythology 2) Brief moment of Section removal (by TheEagle107) stage which is restored and pruned and updated by VFF further in following stages |
VFF opinion on why and how much to keep Judaism and Christianity related comparison |
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".. keep the Judaism section though, since this comparasion has been made several times and "shedim" even has become the Hebrew word for "jinn". It was once part of the Quran section due to analysis of the Quran, but deided to remove it below. The Christianity setion is aprtly of value. While the interpretation by Abraham Ecchellensis is neat to know, it had no impact on a historical scale. The term used for Bible translations is OR again and also worthless from an encyclopedic viewpoint. The discussion about fallen angels on the other hand, is frequently discussed even in academic circles also to understand the cultural exchange between Hellenistic ideas and Islam, and Islam in Andalus and its impact on European religion, including astrology and Medieval Philosophy. Maybe it even needs some additions. .." |
Do sources support saying jinn are a mythical creatures?--TheEagle107 (talk) 12:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
I have made an edit replacing "scholars discussed how the jinn fit into the Judeo-Christian concept of demons" with "scholars discuss the relationship between Islamic notions of jinn and earlier Jewish and Christian ideas of supernatural beings or preternatural creatures, especially those of angels, spirits, and demons."
"William of Conches" sentence should be removed. I cannot tell why it is relevant."
While he was influenced by Arabic writings, his distinction between "higher demons" and "lower demons" in turn influenced astrological works by al-Buni and al-Razi and their "demonology". However, this is not clear and, after checking, not adressed properly in the source. It is probably a remnant of the recently (by myself) moved "table" of the seven jinn-king, since they deal with the ambiguity between the ruhaniyya and jinn-kings. Lack of scholarly support makes it plausible to remove that (as per OR as stated by @Sodicadl)
I disagree here, since this is speficically related to the issue of comparative theology/mythology. In Islam the term "jinn" has a double meaning as stated in the exegesis section. It is used as a term for all supernatural beings (including angels and demons) when they morality is left ambigiuos and also for a specific supernatural species. The notion of jinn and angels being clearly distinct is the result of discussion in comparative mythology/theology. If this is rather confusing, I suggest to delete it entirely and not to move it."Sentence beginning with "In Islamic tradition, jinn and angels form two entirely different species" should be removed. This basic distinction should be stated earlier in the page, not here."
It is the closest I was able to find. How much this does support the claim made here, I leave open to the opinion of other Users."Several participants in the Notre Dame gathering wanted these beings to be fallen angels, meaning those “sons of God” who descended to mate with the “daughters of men” according to Gen 6:2–4 and whose story is developed in 1 Enoch (the Enoch book preserved in Ethiopic). This seems impossible to me. For one thing, there is absolutely nothing in the tradi�tion on the fallen angels at any time in its long history to suggest that these angels tried to, or even could, fly back to eavesdrop on proceedings in heaven; and the ǧinn in Q 72 are never actually called angels.
The sentence "The Quran condemns the pre-Islamic Arabian practice of worshipping or seeking protection from them" has an incomplete citation. I tried to find the statement (or a similar one) in the source, but could not find it. On the other hand, there is a similar sounding one in "Routledge Revivals: Medieval Islamic Civilization (2006): An Encyclopedia - Volume I". Unfortunately, the Google Book review is not transparent about the page number. It can be said, however, that the statement is under the entry 'Jinn'. The statement in question goes as follows:
"The most important source for understanding the concept of jinn in Islam is the Qur'an, which strongly condemns the worship of the jinn by the Arabs before Islam and their search for protection from them (72:6)."
Should we simply replace "South Asian Folklore: An Encyclopedia" by "Routledge Revivals: Medieval Islamic Civilization"? (maybe this was even the original source and then things got messed up during some edits). VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@TheEagle107 makes constantly disruotive edits I have a go soon, so maybe somone else could keep an eye on them. In my opinion, the User needs to be reported and banned, however @Bookku can still muster good faith, I found myself unable to. They constantly say something, and then you check it, it is just not true. I for my part User is simply motivated by religious bias as seen in their refusal of accepting basic Jargon and interfering unreliable sources in their recent comments here, while at least some users it seems they are considered to be simply struggling to understand the meaning of these guidlines (or not familar with them themselves). What is the opinion on others regarding their edits? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC) edit: Oh and they started spamming my talkpage... must be something personal.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Apprehensions are understandable but in the heat of the moment we do not realize mistakes on our own sides. This time situation seem to have been saved since the issue was listed at WP:NPOVN. Let us take positive note of article protecting admin's note ".. further edit warring would probably cause a need to long-duration partial blocks to prevent the impact on other editors ..". Let us, take differences in stride and try to move on by helping in forming neutral summary so that discussion can move on towards RfC formatting. We all are aware of importance of focusing on content; I suggest and urge, When things go off the track come back to the track of content discussion. Let us come back to mood of cheers and happy editing. Bookku (talk) 02:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
“ | On "Mythology": The term "mythology" does not need to be proven to you, since the term is academic jargon and in line with all the guidlines you listed here. See WP:BLUESKY for further information. | ” |
— VenusFeuerFalle |
Anyway, for my part, I will accept the consensus of Wikipedia editors whatever it is, and I hope the other user will do the same. Peace. TheEagle107 (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
(edit conflict) Please suggest neutral questions for RfC.. Bookku (talk) 03:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
“ | My questionable edits notwithstanding, I don't see how ...
|
” |
— Louis P. Boog |
Should the "Comparative mythology" section be included in the article? As previously mentioned in the Talk:Jinn#Comparative_mythology, jinn are real creatures, at least according to the vast majority of Muslims, both Sunni and Shi'a. User:Pogenplain suggested renaming the title to "Historical context", while User:VenusFeuerFalle sees that the section with its current title (i.e., comparative mythology) should be kept as it is, per WP:BLUESKY.--TheEagle107 (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Notes
References
{{cite book}}
: Check |archive-url=
value (help)
Nünlist-2015
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).Muslims accept the existence of the jinn as part of their faithand
The existence of jinn, "who are believed in Islam to be part of the Creation, and dwellers of the imaginal," has also been verified in the 72nd sūrah ("chapter") of the Holy Quran, "Al-Jinn." It is believed by the Quran commentators, both Shias and Sunnis, that jinn exist and even reigned the world before the rise of Adam.
EI-2-English
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).it took one week for my name [Nasr Abu Zayd] to be cursed all over Egypt. Even in my village they were saying I was teaching heresies to the students...
Greetings, I remember about a month ago, there was work ont he Comparative Mythology section. @User:Pogenplain maybe "A Comparison of Superstitious Beliefs and Rituals in Buddhism and Islam | Pastoral Psychology (springer.com)" is another good source for you. It could be attached tot he shedim and exorcism rituals section t compare to general beliefs in ghosts/spirits in folklore. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is an ongoing discussion about some edits months ago, involving me VenusFeuerFalle (also referred to as VFF), @Louis P. Book (referred to as LPB), @TheEagle107 (referred to as Eagle), and @Bookku.
The dispute on the Article The dispute was initiated by Louis P. Book. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1212903926&oldid=1212649443). The edit was reverted by me and an edit summary was given.
The next step by LPB was to revert without paying any attention to the objection raised. Instead, he (mis)quoted the source given. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1213249234&oldid=1213074711) The quote comes from the author's introduction, explaining the necessity of her scholary work, not saying that there is a dogmatic obligation to believe in them as a Muslim.
At this point it should be mentioned that I caught the same User misquoting other sources previously to support their own position. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShaitan&diff=1214053357&oldid=1213830185). Here, the User in question also accused me of bias for disagreeing of their edits. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShaitan&diff=1213005483&oldid=1213001895) I want to mention that I always explained my reverts, as I did in the dispute referred to here as well. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShaitan&diff=1216445118&oldid=1214851832)
I want to take the oppoturnity here, to point out that the User in question has picked out sources for one specific position in a dispute within Islamic doctrines (here: that jinn are devil) and this is the position also presented by Fetullah Gülen (Jinn and Human Beings - Fethullah Gülen's Official Web Site (fgulen.com)), a source, the User in question later uses.
Back to the Jinn article: LPB' next step, after the revert of my revert (without any explanation), was to elaborate even further on their own position. (https://Jinn: en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1213276884&oldid=1213074711). Apart from ignoring input by another User, the edits just got worse. While the first one was a misinterpretation of a reliable source, the next one is a reference to a religious authority (and according to the Wikipedia entry, also advocate of Islamism as seen here: Abul A'la Maududi). Religious authorities are not reliable sources (WP:RNPOV and WP:PARTISAN), even if the author was not an Islamist, it is still unreliable. Here it is important to highlight the difference between Religious studies and Theology.
Afterwards, I undid their edits, and exlained with each step why they have been reverted. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1213541420&oldid=1213323568) A few days later and the first extensive discussions happened. This is also the time when Eagle joined and reverted my edits, I want to remember, the ones I explained. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1219313447&oldid=1218417996)
For context, it is noteworthy that Eagle has history opposing my edits when they contradict what could bes be explained by their own beliefs. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIblis&diff=1035359841&oldid=1035298167) Here, similarly ommitting other notable sources, and apart from that, even the Arabic webpage does not support their claim, if they had read it entirely. It is relevant in sofar as the second user seems to have a personal bias against my edits, which also explains their improper behavior on the talkpage, explored in the next section. (It is also noteworthy, that Eagle uses similar sources to that of LPB, which is mostly relying on blogs who argue for the identification of jinn with satans,
Talkpage The first section was "Recent deletions", I am not sure, but I think it might have been me who opened the discussion, as a repsonse to LPB's or Eagle ignoring my edit summary. I remember the "here we go again"-quote, as a reference that I had to help the Users just a while ago on the Shaitan article talkapge, as mentioned above. Here, I asked them to consult the talkpage instead of just reverting a revert and adding even worse sources. LPB and Eagle choose to ignore that. (Wikipedia:Avoiding difficult users)
Things get even more complicated then Eagle appears and makes even more inappropriate sugggestions and now even wants the lead-section to mention that jinn are essential (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1219515661&oldid=1219490069), while the lead is only a summary of the entire article.
Then Eagle starts accusing me of cherry picking (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1220790249&oldid=1220782001). Ironically, the attentive user will have realized it is the source from which the fact many Muslim scholars denied the existence of jinn derives from. Beginning with "hey everyone check out" with the header "cherry picking" feels more like stirring up hate against other users (in this case me) rather than being interested in a neutral resolution.
Then, while still waiting for responses to my objections, BPL made edit suggestions instead. He can do that, but I think it is easier to discuss the issue directly. Unfortunately, none of the changes consider my previous objection and I was asked to explain each suggestion again. At this point, I hoenstly, got frustrating because now I have to reply to each point seperately, while it is still the very same issue I had at the very beginning, still left unanswered, now with even worse sources, such as Fetullah Gülen, who falls under "religious authority" and can be dismissed for the same reasons as mentioned above (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1224873430&oldid=1220998939).
Before any dispute is settled, Eagle points to another topic and opens a discussion about the coparative mythology section (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1224874019&oldid=1224753229). I do not see what is the point here, apart from spreading confusion, but I had hope that it could settle the previous edit war for good. Instead, the discussions are similarly bad and the religious bias shines through again, asking if "there is proof that jinn are mythological creatures" (no, they are biological ones of course). (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1225277164&oldid=1225274554). Eagle also started another edit war about this, and also ignored me pointing out that Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue.
The user also objected to "comparative mythology" in general and removed it at some point entirely, again, I had to restore it, and they claim that they are willing to accept any consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1225693738&oldid=1225685395), but then starts an entire poll to question the general consensus on the talkpage about the section on comparative mythology.
Meanwhile, Eagle also spammed my talkpage with several "warnings" for not conforming to their demands (User talk:VenusFeuerFalle: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia), which could lead to an immediate ban (WP:HUSH) I also I first wanted to report, but then had not the time to deal with this none-sense (I might chance my mind though, then this is the only way to get rid of this awful discussion).
User Eagle also talked behind my back, since I got not notified and accusing me of "gaming the system" and gathered other users against me (which could also be considered cavassing). (There is nothing personal. Actually, neutrality is enough to solve the problem, at least for me. But the real problem is that some users think they are smarter than everyone else and trying to gaming the system (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABookku&diff=1229682833&oldid=1223782163). On a second thought, I should definately reporting Eagle for several reasons. LPB and Bookku seem to try their best, although I am not sure if things go clean here anymore.
Summary Overall, LPB made an edit with original research, unreliable authors, and misquoting a source. After being reverted, the User decided to addd even more questionable sources, made even worse edits, and ignored all notifications on the talkpage, until evne more people reverted them. Then Eagle appeared and sided with PBL, and opened so many discussions, partly with accusations and harrassment. Furthermore, Eagle decided to gather support also by tagging other users they believed to side with them on polls and talking on other Users talkpages behind the back of those who are involved in this discussion.
Eagle has opened several other discussions and the original subject of dispute got lost. Given the previous dispute and the evidence for religious bias, I conclude that this dispute is purely personal and misses any encyclopedic value. I am willing to give the involved users one last chance, to make one clear suggestion, I want to respond one last time. Then we can go step by step over to the other ones. If it fails, I will not reply to that anymore, and then either the edits meet the Wiki-Criteria or they don't. If they do not meet them, they will be reverted, no matter of you understand the reason or not. Because, I just feel my time being wasted. If the users again derail the discussions, I will report Eagle and let an admin check on all involved users for canvassing, harrassment, and potential sockpuppetry.
I wasted about two hours for this awful response I had to do because of this awful discussion, I have nothing to do with but applying guidlines and being too kind to actually engage with reasoning. I would have been better if I just dropped a link like a robot and reverted the edits without any good will. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 00:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
@VenusFeuerFalle, @TheEagle107 (referred to as Eagle), and @Bookku.
My suggested edits to the Jinn article are posted in blue of "{{talkquote|" in this sandbox post. The basic idea is encapsilated in the sentence I'm trying to add to the lede
Many Muslim scholars, believe that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Quran.[1](p33)
While it is unlikely that many people would suggest Jinn are a major part of Islam, the suggested edits (using some research by TheEagle107) only include
1) whether this statement should be allowed in the lede
2) whether revivalist preacher Abul A'la Maududi should be included among two other scholars listed who support this position (i.e. belief in Jinn is a necessary part of Islam). (The point here being that Maududi has/had a huge following and readership);
3) and whether as evidence of the significance of this belief, a brief description of the troubles of Nasr Abu Zayd "who was threated with death for apostasy" in the 1990s "(in part) because he didn't believe in jinn", should be included in the article. (The significance here is that belief in the apostasy of Nasr Abu Zayd in his country (Egypt) was so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him). (He lamented that "it took one week for my name [Nasr Abu Zayd] to be cursed all over Egypt. Even in my village they were saying I was teaching heresies to the students...")[2]
To help resolve the dispute I (with the help of Bookku) hashed it out on the talk page, apealed to took the issue to
There is an ongoing discussion about some edits months ago, involving me VenusFeuerFalle (also referred to as VFF), @Louis P. Book (referred to as LPB),
@TheEagle107 (referred to as Eagle), and @Bookku.
The dispute on the Article The dispute was initiated by Louis P. Book. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1212903926&oldid=1212649443). The edit was reverted by me and an edit summary was given. The next step by LPB was to revert without paying any attention to the objection raised.
Instead, he (mis)quoted the source given. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1213249234&oldid=1213074711) The quote comes from the author's introduction, explaining the necessity of her scholary work, not saying that there is a dogmatic obligation to believe in them as a Muslim.
At this point it should be mentioned that I caught the same User misquoting other sources previously to support their own position. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShaitan&diff=1214053357&oldid=1213830185). Here, the User in question also accused me of bias for disagreeing of their edits. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShaitan&diff=1213005483&oldid=1213001895)
I want to mention that I always explained my reverts, as I did in the dispute referred to here as well. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShaitan&diff=1216445118&oldid=1214851832)
I want to take the oppoturnity here, to point out that the User in question has picked out sources for one specific position in a dispute within Islamic doctrines (here: that jinn are devil) and this is the position also presented by Fetullah Gülen (Jinn and Human Beings - Fethullah Gülen's Official Web Site (fgulen.com)), a source, the User in question later uses.
Back to the Jinn article: LPB' next step, after the revert of my revert (without any explanation), was to elaborate even further on their own position. (https://Jinn: en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1213276884&oldid=1213074711).
Apart from ignoring input by another User, the edits just got worse.
While the first one was a misinterpretation of a reliable source, the next one is a reference to a religious authority (and according to the Wikipedia entry, also advocate of Islamism as seen here: Abul A'la Maududi).
Religious authorities are not reliable sources (WP:RNPOV and WP:PARTISAN), even if the author was not an Islamist, it is still unreliable. Here it is important to highlight the difference between Religious studies and Theology.
Afterwards, I undid their edits, and exlained with each step why they have been reverted. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1213541420&oldid=1213323568)
A few days later and the first extensive discussions happened. This is also the time when Eagle joined and reverted my edits, I want to remember, the ones I explained. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jinn&diff=1219313447&oldid=1218417996) --Louis P. Boog (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
For context, it is noteworthy that Eagle has history opposing my edits when they contradict what could bes be explained by their own beliefs. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIblis&diff=1035359841&oldid=1035298167) Here, similarly ommitting other notable sources, and apart from that, even the Arabic webpage does not support their claim, if they had read it entirely. It is relevant in sofar as the second user seems to have a personal bias against my edits, which also explains their improper behavior on the talkpage, explored in the next section. (It is also noteworthy, that Eagle uses similar sources to that of LPB, which is mostly relying on blogs who argue for the identification of jinn with satans,
and omitting other positions also prevailing in Islamic tradition as also mentioned in secondary literature).
Talkpage The first section was "Recent deletions", I am not sure, but I think it might have been me who opened the discussion, as a repsonse to LPB's or Eagle ignoring my edit summary. I remember the "here we go again"-quote, as a reference that I had to help the Users just a while ago on the Shaitan article talkapge, as mentioned above. Here, I asked them to consult the talkpage instead of just reverting a revert and adding even worse sources. LPB and Eagle choose to ignore that. (Wikipedia:Avoiding difficult users)
Things get even more complicated then Eagle appears and makes even more inappropriate sugggestions and now even wants the lead-section to mention that jinn are essential (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1219515661&oldid=1219490069), while the lead is only a summary of the entire article.
Then Eagle starts accusing me of cherry picking (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1220790249&oldid=1220782001). Ironically, the attentive user will have realized it is the source from which the fact many Muslim scholars denied the existence of jinn derives from. Beginning with "hey everyone check out" with the header "cherry picking" feels more like stirring up hate against other users (in this case me) rather than being interested in a neutral resolution.
Then, while still waiting for responses to my objections, BPL made edit suggestions instead.
He can do that, but I think it is easier to discuss the issue directly. Unfortunately, none of the changes consider my previous objection and I was asked to explain each suggestion again. At this point, I hoenstly, got frustrating because now I have to reply to each point seperately, while it is still the very same issue I had at the very beginning, still left unanswered, now with even worse sources, such as Fetullah Gülen, who falls under "religious authority" and can be dismissed for the same reasons as mentioned above (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1224873430&oldid=1220998939).
Before any dispute is settled, Eagle points to another topic and opens a discussion about the coparative mythology section (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1224874019&oldid=1224753229). I do not see what is the point here, apart from spreading confusion, but I had hope that it could settle the previous edit war for good. Instead, the discussions are similarly bad and the religious bias shines through again, asking if "there is proof that jinn are mythological creatures" (no, they are biological ones of course). (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1225277164&oldid=1225274554). Eagle also started another edit war about this, and also ignored me pointing out that Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue.
The user also objected to "comparative mythology" in general and removed it at some point entirely, again, I had to restore it, and they claim that they are willing to accept any consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJinn&diff=1225693738&oldid=1225685395), but then starts an entire poll to question the general consensus on the talkpage about the section on comparative mythology.
Meanwhile, Eagle also spammed my talkpage with several "warnings" for not conforming to their demands (User talk:VenusFeuerFalle: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia), which could lead to an immediate ban (WP:HUSH) I also I first wanted to report, but then had not the time to deal with this none-sense (I might chance my mind though, then this is the only way to get rid of this awful discussion).
User Eagle also talked behind my back, since I got not notified and accusing me of "gaming the system" and gathered other users against me (which could also be considered cavassing). (There is nothing personal. Actually, neutrality is enough to solve the problem, at least for me. But the real problem is that some users think they are smarter than everyone else and trying to gaming the system (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABookku&diff=1229682833&oldid=1223782163). On a second thought, I should definately reporting Eagle for several reasons. LPB and Bookku seem to try their best, although I am not sure if things go clean here anymore.
Summary Overall, LPB made an edit with original research, unreliable authors, and misquoting a source. After being reverted, the User decided to addd even more questionable sources, made even worse edits, and ignored all notifications on the talkpage, until evne more people reverted them.
Then Eagle appeared and sided with PBL, and opened so many discussions, partly with accusations and harrassment. Furthermore, Eagle decided to gather support also by tagging other users they believed to side with them on polls and talking on other Users talkpages behind the back of those who are involved in this discussion.
Eagle has opened several other discussions and the original subject of dispute got lost. Given the previous dispute and the evidence for religious bias, I conclude that this dispute is purely personal and misses any encyclopedic value. I am willing to give the involved users one last chance, to make one clear suggestion, I want to respond one last time. Then we can go step by step over to the other ones. If it fails, I will not reply to that anymore, and then either the edits meet the Wiki-Criteria or they don't. If they do not meet them, they will be reverted, no matter of you understand the reason or not. Because, I just feel my time being wasted. If the users again derail the discussions, I will report Eagle and let an admin check on all involved users for canvassing, harrassment, and potential sockpuppetry.
I wasted about two hours for this awful response I had to do because of this awful discussion, I have nothing to do with but applying guidlines and being too kind to actually engage with reasoning. I would have been better if I just dropped a link like a robot and reverted the edits without any good will. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 00:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is enough evidence that the jinn exist since there is a whole Surah in the Quran that talks about the jinn. The word "jinn" was mentioned in the Quran twenty-two times. The word "Al-Jann" was mentioned seven times,
|
In section "Islam": Should the following sentence be added to "Islam" section in the article?
Jinn have been called "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition[1] or faith,[2] "completely accepted" in official Islam;[3] prominently featured in folklore,[4] but also taken "quite seriously" by both medieval and modern Muslim scholars,[5] who "worked out" the consequences implied by their existence -- legal status, the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property.[3]
13:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Ref-list and Author brief for Proposed additions of text 1 | ||||
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The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion |
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The brief of main Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC discussion is, Both sides seem to maintain neutrality of the article, the main consideration before proposed RfC likely to be WP:DUE how much to cover.User:VenusFeuerFalle says (in the article-body Jinn) importance of jinn-belief (in Islam- and Muslim world) has been highlighted sufficiently already. User:Louis P. Boog says that is not sufficient enough and important scope exists to increase the weight, without it being undue. Similarly in case of rejection of Jinn, VFF feels present coverage is sufficient where as LPB finds some scope on that count too.
Bookku (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC) as discussion facilitator.Reply |
Sources need to have page numbers to make it easy to verify. Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Reply