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"Petrarch's career in the Church did not allow him to marry," What career? Elementalwarrior 16:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
In, the paragraph "The tomb had been opened previously in 1873 by Professor Giovanni Canestrini, also of Padua University. When the tomb was opened, the skull was discovered in fragments and a DNA test revealed that the skull was not Petrarch's,[2] prompting calls for the return of Petrarch's skull. The researchers are fairly certain that the body in the tomb is Petrarch's due to the fact that the skeleton bears evidence of injuries mentioned by Petrarch in his writings, including a kick from a donkey, when he was forty-two.[3]"
I didn't believe they had DNA testing in 1873? Anow2 (talk) 01:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Reply
Petrarch or Francesco Petrarca? Isn't the latter the real name of this guy and the former just something that english speaking people have invented for him later? If this is true, then, in my opinion, we should have the main page for Francesco Petrarca and have Petrarch be redirected there. Right now Francesco Petrarca is redirected to Petrarch, which is, again in my opinion, quite backwards. Or perhapse this is a FAQ somewhere? --Tbackstr 07:48, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
The Poll:
Poll: Petrarch or Petrarca
Simply say you want this article to be called Petrarchor(Francesco) Petrarca
--Francesco Petrarca --Lord Snoeckx 18:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
--Francesco Petrarca Reynaert-ad 16:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
--'Petrach, the English name. --Prosfilaes 18:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
--Francesco Petrarca --Tbackstr 13:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
.....well I think that the title Petrarch is the title that we of the English speaking world have come to know this poet. I do not see why a change would be necessary. I do not think this is due to ignorance or anglophilia or bigotry. I honestly think that Petrarch would be quite happy with us for trying to make his name more of a household common word among us English speaking peoples(how the name Petrarch centuries ago was invented, I assure you). This is in no disrespect to him for being Italian, but in every respect to him for being a great poet.
--Whichever an English-speaking user would most naturally search. If we lose sight of the fact that Wikipedia is a service we may find ourselves adopting preposterous attitudes. Francesco Petrarca currentlyredirects the reader to the information.--Wetman 09:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Reply
--Francesco Petrarca, it's his name for crying out loud. Where does 'Petrarch' even come from?Cameron Nedland 22:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
--Francesco Petrarca There was no man named Petrach.
-- Isn’t it a bit pedantic? Do these guys really go about saying e.g. Cristoforo Colombo instead of Christopher Columbus, Kopernik instead of Copernicus, Horatius instead of Horace, Yeshua (Yehoshua?) instead of Jesus, and so forth? Anyway, Petrarch started it by Latinizing his name (hence Francisci Petrarcae Epistolæ etc.) so he can hardly blame us for Anglicizing it. Campolongo (talk) 20:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC) CampolongoReply
The name Petrarch comes is the Anglicized version of the French Pétrarque[1]. My thought is that the entry should be entitled Francesco Petrarca: an author search in WorldCat [1] reveals an overwhelming number of entries attributed to Francesco Petrarca (his Italian name, 4,444 as opposed to 181 for the Anglicized name). Having said that, it's important to note that Italy did not exist as a unified country in Petrarca's time, nor did the Italian language exist. Petrarca referred to himself consistently in Latin and Latin he proudly wrote in and spoke in any official capacity. It was not until the 16th century that the Italianized name gained popularity in the Italic peninsula. In his lifetime he was known for his Latin writings (political, literary, and critical). When his fame as Italian poet grew in the early Renaissance, his Anglicized name as well as his French name were widely used in Europe. Petrarchanism, as it came to be known, reached its peak by the end of the 16th century and was later revived by Voltaire in the 18th century. So it's important to note that he is known in English as Petrarch. But the overwhelming number of author-attributed entries in accepted library science convention seems to me watertight rationale for the Wikipedia entry to be entitled Francesco Petrarca. Jeremy Parzen (talk) 21:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)Reply
The above offers some useful information but is far from a “watertight rationale for the Wikipedia entry.” I looked at the first 110 entries calling him Petrarca and with only a couple of exceptions they were all books published in Italy. We already knew the Italian form of his name was Petrarca, but how does this help us decide the question in an English-language encyclopaedia? I checked the Wikpedia guidelines and found:
Wikipedia: Naming conventions (use English) Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works). This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. Often this will be the local version, as with Madrid. Sometimes the usual English version will differ somewhat from the local form (Aragon, Venice, Normandy; Franz Josef Strauss, Victor Emmanuel III, Christopher Columbus). Rarely, as with Germany or Mount Everest, it will be completely different.”
Now that does seem watertight. “The most commonly used English version of the name of the subject in reliable sources” is definitely Petrarch.Campolongo (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)Reply
References
This artcle references St Augustine, but which? > Among Petrarch's Latin works are De Viris Illustribus, the dialogue Secretum, a debate with St. Augustine,
One, Augustine of Hippo, (354-430), was a philosopher and writer. The other, St. Augustine of Canterbury, was a missionary to the English circa 600 A.D. Will the relevant St Augustine please stand up? Jake 04:26, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I see there's significant copying to or from the following article. I don't know which one is older.
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/petrarca.htm
I thought Petrarch had two children, not three as it currently stands. Only two are listed. I'm not entirely sure though so I will leave it as is for now...
"Among other accomplishments, he commissioned the first Latin translation of Homer" - perhaps I misread this, but surely that ignores Livius Andronicus? Novium 23:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Reply
Is it possible the text can need some elaboration concerning Petrachs relation to the antiquity? I mean, Cicero has been a gigantic influence on him, but it doesn't seem to be noted too much. Secondly, now I'm busy complainin', can there be made a list out of petrarchs works, it's pretty confusing, like it is now, and the major 'seniles' and 'ad familarum' letters aren't even noted. Even though those are his masterpiece Reynaert-ad 21:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
- The date of the book is 1367, that is to say, two hundred and seventy years before the Discourse on Method of Descartes, who is supposed to have been the first to have thrown off the yoke of Aristotle. That yoke did not weigh much on Petrarch's mind. When some Aristotelians started a philosophical discussion in his presence, Petrarch would "either remain silent or jest with them or change the subject." Sometimes Petrarch says, "I asked with a smile, how Aristotle could have known that, for it was not proven by the light of reason, nor could it be tested by experiment. And they would fall silent in surprise and anger, as if they regarded me as a blasphemer who asked any proof beyond the authority of Aristotle. So we bid fair to be no longer philosophers, lovers of the truth, but Aristotelians ... reviving the absurd question which permits us to ask no question except whether he said it . . . I believe, indeed that Aristotle was a great man and that he knew much; yet he was but a man and therefore something, nay, many things may have escaped him. I will say more. I am confident beyond a doubt, that he was in error all his life . . . in the most weighty questions." Gilson, The Unity of Philosophical Experience ([1936] 1999), p. 83.Mballen (talk) 05:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
In the Philosophy section, "civic humanism" is associated with Leonardo Bruni, which sounds as if it were part of Bruni's philosophy. However, civic humanism is a 20th century term, created by scholar Hans Baron to describe the thoughts of Bruni (among others). The concept of civic humanism is also a fairly contested argument. Should this be changed, or attributed to Baron? Eltonovereasy 22:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
The translation by Alexander Foreman, whoever the hell that is, is absolutely abysmal, and quite likely to put quite a lot of people off our dear Petrarch. I'm begging someone to change it. Foreman also put up a butchered Pushkin. Idiot.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.128.70.25 (talk • contribs) .
"Petrarch, Giovanni Boccaccio and Dante are considered the fathers of the Renaissance. " Claims that someone is "the father of" something, or that a town is "the Venice of the" somewhere are uninformative. When a fully Medieval figure like Dante is added to the batter, the result is puff pastry. --Wetman 19:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I tried to improve the new paragraph about the Epistolae familiares but two points aren't clear (at least to me).
Once that's clear, the sentence can be rearranged. At present it says that the papacy is called "sine nomine", but no doubt we want it to say that the letters are called "sine nomine". Andrew Dalby 14:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Reply
Excellent questions. Thanks for cleaning this up. I have reworded this now so that it should be clear on the relationship of Liber Sine nominetoEpistolae familiares.
So happens I just wrote a new article of "Book Without A Name" (a.k.a. Liber Sine nomine). Yesterday I made the new article Ildebrandino Conti, whom is the recipient of Letter # 8. Showing you what I am doing here should help answer your questions. I plan on making new articles on others that received these letters (now maked in red of course). --Doug talk 21:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Reply
Petrarch is often called a Medieval author and he is often called a Renaissance author. There is no "right" category but he can certainly belong in both. -- Stbalbach 15:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
"Brought back the poet laureate tradition from antiquity" is an enormous over-simplification. This is what Petrarch thought he was doing; but let us not suggest that he was right. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Doug Coldwell has made several edits today. I do not think higly of them, and have reverted.
In short,Doug, get a copy of Morris Bishop, or some other reliable source, from Interlibrary Loan and read him. Please stop wasting our time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
What does this mean? One of the most popular art forms up to Petrarch's time? Up to ours? Llajwa 02:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
That's not what bothers me about that sentence, rather, it's this: Petrarch is credited with perfecting the sonnet although ... others perfected it futher. This runs contrary to the definition of the word to "perfect". 67.5.156.5 (talk) 09:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)Reply
Just doing a little research on 'The Dark Ages' and was using Wikipedia for ideas on keyword ideas to help me along in my research. I've noticed that the source that points to Petrarch effectively coining the phrase 'Dark Ages' didn't actually really say much about him being the first to mention 'The Dark Ages'. May I recommend a better source from the same database (JSTOR)?
Title: Petrarch's Conception of the 'Dark Ages' Author: Theodore E. Mommsen Link: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0038-7134%28194204%2917%3A2%3C226%3APCOT%27A%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N
It seems to do a better job at describing his roll in the label 'Dark Ages' from what I can tell, not to mention it also describes where the term could have been derived from in a religious perspective (better background info). Hope this helps. :)
Edit: And I'm referring to source 9 in the article, just for clarification.
--Trikster85 (talk) 06:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
The link to "Letter to Posterity" redirects back to this same article. Please fix or remove the link. 71.224.120.218 (talk) 21:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Reply
Is the Hillman portion relevant in an encyclopedia? The opinions of a psychiatrist that never met Petrarch should be on his page, rather than Petrarch's.
In the article, I read
J.H. Plumb writes in his book The Italian Renaissance of Morris Bishop's version of Petrarch's Ascent of Mont Ventoux showing Petrarch's climb in 1336 was epoch making. [11] This was because Petrarch did this climb on his own volition and not because anything was forced upon him. Petrarch's letter of the ascent to his confessor,[12] the monk Dionigi di Borgo San Sepolcro, rings of aesthetic gratification to grandeur and majesty, [13] a modern attitude that is quoted to this day in many books and journals pertaining to mountaineering.[14]
I doubt very much that mountaineering is what makes Petrarch's ascent "epoch making". James HillmaninRe-Visioning Psychology argues that it was actually the descent from Mont Ventoux -- the return to the valley -- that initiated the Renaissance. The descent, after the encounter with Augustine, was a turning away from spirit and a turning towards soul, a turning from transcendence to immanence. See Ascent_of_Mont_Ventoux#Modern_reception. It was not aspiration that led to the Renaissance: It was an ability to accept and explore the darker side of human nature, the pathos, the shortcomings. Putting Hillman's analysis in simple terms, the Renaissance was about the valley, not about the mountain. Source: Hillman, James (1977). Re-Visioning Psychology. Harper & Row. p. 197. ISBN 0-06-090563-8.
-- NonZionist (talk) 03:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)Reply
I recently uploaded a number of engravings by Hollar that claim to depict Petrarch's Laura, which may have been either from life of Laura de Noves, or from imagination. In any case I thought it might be useful here or elsewhere, if it's applicable. Would also appreciate help categorizing it on Commons. Thanks! Dcoetzee 19:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
"Petrarch is credited with developing the sonnet to a level of perfection that would be unsurpassed to this day and spreading its use to other European languages." - from the lead.
I have trouble working out what this means, it could mean 1) He developed a form of sonnet which has a level of perfection and is unsurpassed to this day. 2) He wrote sonnets in the form he developed which are perfect and unsurpassed etc. In either case what does it mean to have developed a poetic form to perfection, who said it was perfect? how could it be surpassed, what does it mean to have surpassed perfection? In short, this sentence, apart from the bit about spreading the form to other languages, means almost nothing. In addition to which there is no citation so we can't even tell if it is a reliable person's aesthetic judgement. Grcaldwell (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Reply
Removed the following dead link (here so it can be readded if the site comes back to life) - The Petrarchan Grotto Grcaldwell (talk) 21:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)Reply
Can someone please rewrite/better this sentence? "Based on Petrarch's works, and to a lesser extent those of Dante Alighieri and Giovanni Boccaccio, Pietro Bembo in the 16th century created the model for the modern Italian language, later endorsed by the Accademia della Crusca." I've read it several times and can't make it out! Thanks, --Ebrownless (talk) 07:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)Reply
I've only recently started taking an interest with this article, and I noticed how often it has been vandalised in the past few weeks. While I haven't checked the whole history, I'd like to know: has it always been like that? If so, then maybe this article would need some kind of permanent semi-protection, meaning only members registered for at least 4 days could make modifications. Thanks for updating me on the matter.
• H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈ {KLAT} • 01:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
Petrarch doesn't say that he was the first to ascend the mountain since Philip of Macedonia. He says that he was inspired to climb it after reading about Philip's ascent of Mount Hemo in Thessaly. The "aged peasant", aside from warning him of the dangers (minor really), tells Petrarch that no one has ascended the mountain since he himself did so in his youth 50 years before. (I don't have time to make the changes right now, but if they don't get made I'll do them later.) E. abu Filumena (talk) 20:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)Reply
Apparently there are references to Petrarch's De Viris Illustribus, other than his Secretum that are in his works of Rhymes, De otio religiosorum, and Triumphs. Does anybody have an idea where these may be? Apparently these references were over a forty year period of these Petrarch writings.--Doug Coldwell talk 20:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
It seems so obvious, but why isn't there a quick link to the Petrarchan sonnet? It's a significant innovation. I'm no Petrarch scholar, but I would argue that it belongs in the intro or at the very least in the section about his writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meditations in an Emergency (talk • contribs) 14:53, 26 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
Petrarch is considered one the fathers of the Italian culture and one of the three most prominent figures of the Italian language (along with Dante Alighieri and Boccaccio): the term “Italian” is relevant to the subject's notability. Arezzo was a city-state, a “Commune”, and not a country and in similar way the term “nationality” didn’t exist at the time. It was used only since the birth of the so-called “Nation-states” such as France, Italy, Germany … I disagree with these changes https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrarch&diff=572680770&oldid=572425950. In Petrarch's article I added also a reference that states he was Italian: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/454103/Petrarch. I'm surprised you removed the term Italian from Petrarch. It does not make sense for a poet that is considered the father of the Italian language. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)Reply
My 2 cents on a dead issue: It's normal to call Petrarch "Italian" and to consider that an important aspect of his work. In the same way there was a cultural area of "Germany" and there were many "German" writers before there was a united country called "Germany". Zaslav (talk) 04:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
Or to call Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, "Greek"; or the US Founders "American," for that matter. Venqax (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)Reply
Was Petrarch adopted? I do not understand German, but the following citation implies he was adopted.
SCHOTT, Clausdieter (1936- ). Die „Adoption“ bei Petrarca und in der Petrarca-Rezeption. in> Festschrift für Hans-Wolfgang Strätz zum 70. Geburtstag / hrsg. von Harald Derschka [ISBN: 978-3866464001], S. 445-58.
I have several URLs upon which the citation was formed---on behalf of the Adoption Bibliography Center.
71.190.64.13 (talk) 10:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Lester Sellinger Lessellinger@cs.comReply
After several years of regular and conscientious contribution to Wikipedia, I retired ten months ago, exhausted and completely burned out. I come back occasionally (entirely by habit) looking for information; and very occasionally I make a random anonymous edit, mainly to remind myself that I have the right to do it (like everybody else on earth) and to flout the specious argument that if I'm really retired I must un-retire before I can edit again. Phooey.
The other day I came across something (in the real world, not here) that mentioned Petrarch, so I came here to read about him. What I found instead was a powerful reminder of why I retired from this madhouse and why Wikipedia will NEVER be the serious source of reliable information it aspires to become.
I hadn't read more than two paragraphs about Petrarch when I came to a screeching halt, a halt that is now permanent. Whatever I learn about him I will not learn here.
What leapt up in my face like an angry cobra was the fact that—except for its title—the article about Petrarch never called him Petrarch, choosing instead to call him Petrarca. It was so peculiar that I came here to find out why, and now I know why.
One or two editors whose native language is not English have decided to use this article as a weapon against the English language and what they perceive as its arrogant disrespect for the conventions of other languages—insisting in many cases on using words, names, etc, in strange and idiosyncratic ways, with no regard to how the same kinds of words are used in French, Dutch, German, Italian, Arabic or any other language. Petrarch is called Petrarca in other languages, so English must be FORCED to do the same.
I trust that those editors eventually will discover that taking on a 1500-year-old language, with around half a billion native speakers, and trying to force it to change the way it has developed throughout those long centuries, is a lost cause. A million-strong army backed by every country in the United Nations wouldn't succeed in such an insane quest; one or two petulant European academics with nothing more meaningful in their lives can't do it either. English is as it is—love it (as I do) or hate it (as they do), but the "consensus" of a tiny gang of angry WP editors is not going to change it.
All those editors CAN do is:
The first two of those results are the ones that prove this "encyclopedia" can never be what it wants to be (the third result is meaningful only to the individual editors).
Any source of information that by its very nature is vulnerable to such publishing of inaccurate information, by a "consensus" of a very small number of narrow-minded, iron-willed, recalcitrant editors, will NEVER earn the universal trust a true encyclopedia must have. When enough Wikipedia users have been burned by articles like this one, which give out false information because a few editors are using the articles for their own neurotic purposes, they will stop coming here for information.
If this were the ONLY such article in Wikipedia, it could be written off as a passing spasm, a necessary growth pang, but it's not. It's endemic.
Wikipedia is full of articles like this, disseminating not reliable facts but petty personal agendas; and its fundamental structure guarantees that such unreliable articles will persist for as long as this ambitious but failing experiment lasts.
Before long, Wikipedia will become only a place for fans to read about their idols and squabble with fans of other idols over what the articles say. Seekers of serious, reliable, objective and unbiased information—like me—will find it somewhere else online; and eventually some OTHER movement will arise, take up the cause Wikipedia has failed in and give us what WP has failed to give us: a true online encyclopedia.
74.65.25.24 (talk) 03:28, 4 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
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Currently his nationality is stated in the infobox to be "Italian", which is patently false as there was no Italy during Petrarch's lifetime.
I don't know what should it be changed to from "Italian", or if he needs to have a nationality at all, but I will remove it for now since it is false currently.
BTW, this falsity is (in case of WP:AGF) most probably the result of confusion with the older meaning of the word "nationality", see nationality. Notrium (talk) 13:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
"Italia mia, benché ’l parlar sia indarno a le piaghe mortali che nel bel corpo tuo sí spesse veggio, piacemi almen che ’ miei sospir’ sian quali spera ’l Tevero et l’Arno, e ’l Po, dove doglioso et grave or seggio. Rettor del cielo, io cheggio che la pietà che Ti condusse in terra Ti volga al Tuo dilecto almo paese. Vedi, Segnor cortese, di che lievi cagion’ che crudel guerra; e i cor’, che ’ndura et serra Marte superbo et fero, apri Tu, Padre, e ’ntenerisci et snoda; ivi fa che ’l Tuo vero, qual io mi sia, per la mia lingua s’oda."
My proposal of adding Saariaho's Dolce tormento to musical settings had been axed for not being notable enough, but I have restored it with more evidence as sources. The work has an article on Dutch Wikipedia and is often performed, it deserves to be included in such a history of musical settings of Petrarch from his lifetime to ours. But maybe this section would benefit from being organized differently in order to allow for more examples while being readable? Musiktheaterpedia (talk) 15:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)Reply