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{{old move|date=15 January 2024|from=Kurdish languages|destination=Kurdish language|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1211857074#Requested move 15 January 2024}} |
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== First attested text in kurdish? == |
== First attested text in kurdish? == |
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:There is consensus on this change. What else do you expect? There is no objections at all. [[Special:Contributions/2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C|2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C]] ([[User talk:2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C|talk]]) 11:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC) |
:There is consensus on this change. What else do you expect? There is no objections at all. [[Special:Contributions/2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C|2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C]] ([[User talk:2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C|talk]]) 11:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Kurdali == |
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Recently Kurdali (Palai) added to the article as a main subdivision of Kurdish. There is only one reference and the claim is based on a short footnote about Kurdali on the source page. One reference is not enough to add it as a main division of Kurdish. Actually, there are not many sources about this dialect, even the [[Kurdali language|article]] was created recently. We can mention Kurdali, but I oppose listing it as a subdivision. Other credible sources are needed in order to add Kurdali to the list. (I call {{Re|Kwamikagami|Semsûrî}}, and other users to this discussion) [[User:Serchia|Serchia]] ([[User talk:Serchia|talk]]) 13:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC) |
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:If there's not a lot of information on Kordali, it could be merged into [[Southern Kurdish]]. --[[User:Semsûrî|Semsûrî]] ([[User talk:Semsûrî|talk]]) 14:08, 30 October 2021 (UTC) |
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::Is there some reason you believe that the ''Atlas of the Languages of Iran'' is not reliable? There are many obscure languages in the world. Obscurity doesn't mean they don't exist. — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 19:19, 30 October 2021 (UTC) |
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:::{{Re|Kwamikagami}} I don't say it doesn't exist. We are talking here about the classification of the dialect. We can mention this dialect on this page, but not list it as a main subdivision, as there are not enough references, even Laki is not listed as a subdivision that may have more resources. [[User:Serchia|Serchia]] ([[User talk:Serchia|talk]]) 15:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Okay, but do you have reason to believe that the ''Atlas'' is not reliable? — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 17:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::{{Re|Kwamikagami}} I don't know about the whole atlas, but for this matter, as there is only one reference, I don't see it as a reliable source. I think at least we need three reliable references from good linguistic resources in order to mention it as a language. Kurdali is listed on Glottolog as a dilaect of Southern Kurdish, Glottolog is a more realible source and we should list Kurdali in this page as a dialect of Southern Kurdish, aslo in [[Kordali language|its main article]]. [[User:Serchia|Serchia]] ([[User talk:Serchia|talk]]) 20:05, 6 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Glottolog is not a RS for dialects. They copied over LingList wholesale, and that was put together by students who probably knew less than you or I do. Many of the dialects are spurious, or are under the wrong languages. Glottolog has started its own research on dialects for the past few years -- you'll see that here and there -- but they've barely gotten started. — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 21:16, 6 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::{{Re|Kwamikagami}}The claim from the Atlas is also based on the student papers. I find a table in this book ([https://books.google.com/books?id=8xtrBgAAQBAJ&dq=Kordali+language&source=gbs_navlinks_s Nationalism, Language, and Muslim Exceptionalism]), and Kordali is listed as a dialect of Southern Kurdish. Ethnologue also listed it as a dialect of Southern Kurdish. So, a better way here is to list it as a Southern Kurdish dialect, as there are more sources to prove that. [[User:Serchia|Serchia]] ([[User talk:Serchia|talk]]) 20:58, 7 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::It's quite common for a 'dialect' of a language to prove to be distinct. When that happens, you can always find older sources that call it a dialect. The question is whether the source finding it a distinct language is reliable, not how many old sources you can tally that call it a dialect. — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 21:27, 7 November 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2022 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Kurdish languages|answered=yes}} |
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[[User:Yalda smailii|Yalda smailii]] ([[User talk:Yalda smailii|talk]]) 16:06, 17 February 2022 (UTC) |
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زبان کوردی یک گویش نیست!یک زبان مستقل است |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 16:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC) |
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== Map wars == |
== Map wars == |
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Kurdish speaker are more than this couse many people are starting to learn the language plus some kurds now have rights to learn their language especialy northren kurdistan people just started to have more edaction about it couse back on the day kurdis was banned and also it was dangrous to many to speak it so please fix this [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
Kurdish speaker are more than this couse many people are starting to learn the language plus some kurds now have rights to learn their language especialy northren kurdistan people just started to have more edaction about it couse back on the day kurdis was banned and also it was dangrous to many to speak it so please fix this [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:You haven't said why you think the numbers shown don't include those people. You also haven't identified for us, if the numbers shown don't include those people, where we can find numbers that do include those people. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 03:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
:You haven't said why you think the numbers shown don't include those people. You also haven't identified for us, if the numbers shown don't include those people, where we can find numbers that do include those people. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 03:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Oh i mean this one is from 2020 and today is 2024 it make sense that there are more people learning kurdish plus more than 20 millions kurds live in turkey how native speakers is 25 when also in iraq kurds are 7 millions these two countries must have atleast 27 million speakers and kurds are native two those two countries plus iran and syria and there are some mistakes its not called kurdish languages but dialects and you forget some more like luri bakhtiyari hawrami laki and kalhuri there are more but i forget if i got more information i may tell more dialects couse oh boy we have too many dialects [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 10:48, 10 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 15 January 2024 == |
== Requested move 15 January 2024 == |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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The result of the move request was: '''moved [[Kurdish languages]] to [[Kurdish language]].''' There is consensus to treat the Kurdish language the same way as other languages in a similar situation and use the singular. There is no consensus to move it to the basename "Kurdish" due to possible ambiguity with other articles mentioned at [[Kurdish]]. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:Vpab15|Vpab15]] ([[User talk:Vpab15|talk]]) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC) |
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{{requested move/dated|?}} |
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---- |
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* [[:Kurdish languages]] → ? |
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[[:Kurdish languages]] → ? – The title of this article could be either "Kurdish Language," aligning with the naming convention of other Wikipedia articles discussing "macro" languages or languages forming a dialect continuum, such as "Norwegian Language" or "Chinese Language," which are in a similar situation to Kurdish. Alternatively, we may consider simplifying it to just "Kurdish," similar to the "Arabic" Wikipedia article, thereby sidestepping any contentious debates and maintaining a neutral stance. It seems unjustified for Kurdish to be the only article labeled with "Languages" when there is no consensus on whether it comprises multiple related languages or a single language with various dialects. [[User:Kurdian|Kurdian]] ([[User talk:Kurdian|talk]]) 00:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:ModernDayTrilobite|ModernDayTrilobite]] ([[User talk:ModernDayTrilobite|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ModernDayTrilobite|contribs]]) 17:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)</small> <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:Adumbrativus|Adumbrativus]] ([[User talk:Adumbrativus|talk]]) 04:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)</small> |
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* [[:Kurdish]] → {{no redirect|Kurdish (disambiguation)}} |
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– The title of this article could be either "Kurdish Language," aligning with the naming convention of other Wikipedia articles discussing "macro" languages or languages forming a dialect continuum, such as "Norwegian Language" or "Chinese Language," which are in a similar situation to Kurdish. Alternatively, we may consider simplifying it to just "Kurdish," similar to the "Arabic" Wikipedia article, thereby sidestepping any contentious debates and maintaining a neutral stance. It seems unjustified for Kurdish to be the only article labeled with "Languages" when there is no consensus on whether it comprises multiple related languages or a single language with various dialects. [[User:Kurdian|Kurdian]] ([[User talk:Kurdian|talk]]) 00:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:ModernDayTrilobite|ModernDayTrilobite]] ([[User talk:ModernDayTrilobite|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ModernDayTrilobite|contribs]]) 17:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)</small> <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:Adumbrativus|Adumbrativus]] ([[User talk:Adumbrativus|talk]]) 04:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)</small> <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose''' given that Kurdish (Kurmanci) and Kurdish (Sorani) are distinguished on multiple apps and softwares (not least Google translate) as well as in scholarship, keeping languages plural is helpful. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 22:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' given that Kurdish (Kurmanci) and Kurdish (Sorani) are distinguished on multiple apps and softwares (not least Google translate) as well as in scholarship, keeping languages plural is helpful. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 22:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Besides which Kurmanci and Sorani are clearly more different than Danish and Norwegian for example, so leave it as plural. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 22:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
::Besides which Kurmanci and Sorani are clearly more different than Danish and Norwegian for example, so leave it as plural. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 22:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::I don't understand your point. Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk) and Chinese languages like Mandarin and Cantonese are often treated separately in software as well. |
::I don't understand your point. Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk) and Chinese languages like Mandarin and Cantonese are often treated separately in software as well. |
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::Regarding dialect differences, Sorani and Kurmanji are no more distinct than Mandarin and Cantonese, or various Arabic languages. [[User:Kurdian|Kurdian]] ([[User talk:Kurdian|talk]]) 01:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC) |
::Regarding dialect differences, Sorani and Kurmanji are no more distinct than Mandarin and Cantonese, or various Arabic languages. [[User:Kurdian|Kurdian]] ([[User talk:Kurdian|talk]]) 01:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::The main reason for this is that they are under the rule of separate states and use separate alphabets. [[User:Neribij|Neribij]] ([[User talk:Neribij|talk]]) 07:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Oppose''' since I don't believe "Chinese language" should be the page title either. It has a redirect so I'm not concerned about people finding the page. "Kurdish languages" is more accurate to the linguistic categorization through mutual intelligibility. "Kurdish" is too ambiguous ([[Kurdish people]], etc.) to be a title. If there is a [[sociolinguistic]] component of Kurdish that is important to it being considered a single language, then would reconsider my position.[[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 19:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)</s> |
*<s>'''Oppose''' since I don't believe "Chinese language" should be the page title either. It has a redirect so I'm not concerned about people finding the page. "Kurdish languages" is more accurate to the linguistic categorization through mutual intelligibility. "Kurdish" is too ambiguous ([[Kurdish people]], etc.) to be a title. If there is a [[sociolinguistic]] component of Kurdish that is important to it being considered a single language, then would reconsider my position.[[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 19:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)</s> |
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: '''Support''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]] (see below). [[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 07:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
: <s>'''Support''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]] (see below). [[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 07:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)</s> |
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: '''Support''' "'''Kurdish language'''" per [[WP:COMMONNAME]] (see below). '''Oppose''' "'''Kurdish'''" per Aintabli's comment and insights on usage of the term. [[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 16:47, 5 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:: I'd like to '''comment''' that there are currently discussions about merging the "Chinese language" page with others since it is inaccurate. [[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 19:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
:: I'd like to '''comment''' that there are currently discussions about merging the "Chinese language" page with others since it is inaccurate. [[User:Toomuchcuriosity|<sub>too_much </sub>curiosity]] ([[User talk:Toomuchcuriosity|talk]]) 19:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::The problem is, there is no agreement among linguists on whether Kurdish is one language or multiple, and that's why the article's name being in the plural is a bit puzzling. I would argue that the majority of sources view it as a single language with multiple dialects.[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kurdish-language][https://ceus.indiana.edu/about/languages/kurdish.html][https://kurdish.humanities.manchester.ac.uk] [https://cah.ucf.edu/languages/languages/kurdish/] [https://cmes.fas.harvard.edu/news/harvard-offers-kurdish-language-course-first-time-university-history][https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29702440] Although there is ongoing debate on the topic, the term "Kurdish Language" is still more commonly used.[https://iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i][https://rm.coe.int/native/1680717181] Even official documents, such as the constitution of Iraq – the sole country where Kurdish holds official language status – treat it as a single language.[https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Iraq_2005#s26] Additionally, most Kurds typically call their language "Kurdish/kurdi". The view of Kurdish as a single entity is important to Kurds because of historical factors like foreign rule, geographic divisions, and restrictions imposed by external powers, leading to non-mutual intelligibility and the use of different scripts among Kurdish varieties.[https://kurdish.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/about-kurdish/sociolinguistic-background-and-status/] [[User:Kurdian|Kurdian]] ([[User talk:Kurdian|talk]]) 21:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
::The problem is, there is no agreement among linguists on whether Kurdish is one language or multiple, and that's why the article's name being in the plural is a bit puzzling. I would argue that the majority of sources view it as a single language with multiple dialects.[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kurdish-language][https://ceus.indiana.edu/about/languages/kurdish.html][https://kurdish.humanities.manchester.ac.uk] [https://cah.ucf.edu/languages/languages/kurdish/] [https://cmes.fas.harvard.edu/news/harvard-offers-kurdish-language-course-first-time-university-history][https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29702440] Although there is ongoing debate on the topic, the term "Kurdish Language" is still more commonly used.[https://iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i][https://rm.coe.int/native/1680717181] Even official documents, such as the constitution of Iraq – the sole country where Kurdish holds official language status – treat it as a single language.[https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Iraq_2005#s26] Additionally, most Kurds typically call their language "Kurdish/kurdi". The view of Kurdish as a single entity is important to Kurds because of historical factors like foreign rule, geographic divisions, and restrictions imposed by external powers, leading to non-mutual intelligibility and the use of different scripts among Kurdish varieties.[https://kurdish.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/about-kurdish/sociolinguistic-background-and-status/] [[User:Kurdian|Kurdian]] ([[User talk:Kurdian|talk]]) 21:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' per nom for '''Kurdish'''. Used unqualified it is clear enough that it describes the language(s). --[[User:عُثمان|عُثمان]] ([[User talk:عُثمان|talk]]) 19:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC) |
:'''Support''' per nom for '''Kurdish'''. Used unqualified it is clear enough that it describes the language(s). --[[User:عُثمان|عُثمان]] ([[User talk:عُثمان|talk]]) 19:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' a move to plain Kurdish. No opinion on language(s). [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 19:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC) |
:'''Oppose''' a move to plain Kurdish. No opinion on language(s). [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 19:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:<small>'''Relisting comment''': Relist, after adding a proposal to move [[Kurdish]] to [[Kurdish (disambiguation)]] per requirement that any other page that must be moved should be notified and included in the move request. Note this doesn't preclude this discussion finding a consensus to move [[Kurdish languages]] somewhere other than [[Kurdish]], in which case the disambiguation page would not need to be moved. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)</small> |
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:'''Support''' I completely agree with what you've stated. [[User:Krqftan|Krqftan]] ([[User talk:Krqftan|talk]]) 07:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' move to Kurdish. '''Oppose''' move to "Kurdish language". Despite it likely being the [[Wikipedia:Common name|common name]], it's a controversial one that can be avoided. [[User:FunLater|FunLater]] ([[User talk:FunLater|talk]]) 21:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] --> |
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== Phonology, Grammar and Writing system sections are empty? == |
== Phonology, Grammar and Writing system sections are empty? == |
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Why are these sections empty? Most language articles have a short summary of their language's phonology, grammar and writing system, but for some reason in the Kurdish Languages article it's completely empty? [[User:Silveratractic|Silveratractic]] ([[User talk:Silveratractic|talk]]) 21:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC) |
Why are these sections empty? Most language articles have a short summary of their language's phonology, grammar and writing system, but for some reason in the Kurdish Languages article it's completely empty? [[User:Silveratractic|Silveratractic]] ([[User talk:Silveratractic|talk]]) 21:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:They're not empty, they redirect to their own Wiki pages. There is a blue text under each title. [[User:Krqftan|Krqftan]] ([[User talk:Krqftan|talk]]) 07:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::There should be a summary of the phonlogy, grammar and writing system under each section. Although the redirects are useful, it's not meant to replace all the text in each respective sections. [[User:Silveratractic|Silveratractic]] ([[User talk:Silveratractic|talk]]) 20:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== More countries recognise kurdish language == |
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You forget georgia sweden and thee maby more recognise it as a minority language [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 19:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:Not that I can find. Are you able to provide any sources? [[User:Krqftan|Krqftan]] ([[User talk:Krqftan|talk]]) 07:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/090120241 is this one enough cause if not I will find another one [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 11:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Font? == |
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This is not related to the language but, what is name of the font of Sorani letters? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish_Language.svg |
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-Luke [[Special:Contributions/70.162.148.16|70.162.148.16]] ([[User talk:70.162.148.16|talk]]) 18:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'm not sure, but I think the font is "Nizar Nastaliq Kurdish", which is [[nastaliq]]. It is better to ask the png version uploader directly. ⇒ [[User:Aram|<span style="color:#ff0;background:#000;font-family:cursive;text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #ff0;">Aram</span>]][[User talk:Aram|<span style="color:#000;background:#ff0;font-family:cursive;text-shadow:3px 3px 5px #000;">Talk</span>]] 14:57, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 March 2024 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Kurdish language|answered=yes}} |
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add references: |
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Sheyholislami, Jaffer, Hassanpour, Amir, and Skutnabb-Kangas, Tove. 2012. The Kurdish Linguistic Landscape: |
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Vitality, Linguicide and Resistance. Special issue of International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 2917(2012). [[User:Jaffersh|Jaffersh]] ([[User talk:Jaffersh|talk]]) 00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> Its unclear where in the text you want these reference to be added. [[User:Jamedeus|Jamedeus]] ([[User talk:Jamedeus|talk]]) 00:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== The claim that Kurdish is not mutually intelligible? == |
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I’m not here to disturb the page or add any, I’m just curious as to why the Kurdish dialects are considered not intelligible? From my understanding and experience, I understand a Kurmanji, Hewrami, Laki and Zazaki way more than Persian, which to me personally sounds like gibberish and not close to Kurdish at all (This was my experience with Shirazi and Gilan Persian) |
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Other than my rant above, I just want to know why this is included because it is still debated whether Kurdish dialects are dialects or languages (most people who argue the latter usually have an anti-kurdish POV based on experience) [[User:Volkish Kurden|Volkish Kurden]] ([[User talk:Volkish Kurden|talk]]) 23:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:If [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] say they're not mutually intelligible, Wikipedia should say they're not [[mutually intelligible]]. [[User:FunLater|FunLater]] ([[User talk:FunLater|talk]]) 19:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Kurdish is a single language == |
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kurdish is not a language group where do you even get this idea like we always say its kurdish language not languages yes we sometimes have misunderstand each other or never know what the other person talk about but that happen in all languages even in english arabic spanish and other languages this happen to british and americans when speaking english they never understand what the other says or scotts and english people never understand eachother [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 08:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Good point. |
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:I changed it to say "Kurdish is a language or a group of languages". Some say that Kurdish is one language (like [https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-ii-history-of-kurdish-studies Encyclopædia Iranica] and [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kurdish-language Encyclopædia Britannica]). Others say they're multiple languages (see [https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/applirev-2020-0151/html?lang=en]). And also Northern, Central, and Southern Kurdish have different ISO language codes (https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/kur). I think it's important to mention that there is no agreement on if Kurdish is one language or more. |
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:@[[User:Stephan rostie|Stephan rostie]], could you please not revert my edits this time without consensus to do so? Because: |
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:* the title of the page was changed to language, singular, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1211857074#Requested_move_15_January_2024 not long ago] and there was consensus to do so. |
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:* stable versions of the page used to describe Kurdish as "a language or a group of languages". |
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:* many (if not most) reliable sources (including [https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-ii-history-of-kurdish-studies Encyclopædia Iranica]) consider Kurdish to be a single language. |
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:[[User:FunLater|FunLater]] ([[User talk:FunLater|talk]]) 20:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yeah but shouln`t wikipedia not be from some say and some not couse that is what i was told in kurdish papulation article however about this topic all kurds say kurdish language not languages and yes there are diffreneces as you said but please now that this diffrences make them dalects not languages never heard kurdish languages only in here so that is why i think we should go with the most reliable sources and the single language is more reliable [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 16:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::As all teachers say kurdish language not languages and that is also important [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 16:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::The rule on Wikipedia for this is here: [[WP:WEIGHT]]. |
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:::[[WP:WEIGHT]] says "The relative prominence of each viewpoint among Wikipedia editors or the general public is irrelevant and should not be considered." Only what [[WP:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] say matters. [[User:FunLater|FunLater]] ([[User talk:FunLater|talk]]) 16:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Buddy this is exactly what i said you just made it shorter well done anyway [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 18:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I know our converastion was a long tim ago but is the krg goverment also a reliable source couse it itself says that its kurdish language not languages [[User:Hogirkurdish15|Hogirkurdish15]] ([[User talk:Hogirkurdish15|talk]]) 15:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2024 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|answered=yes}} |
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The claim that |
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{{Tq|Kurdish varieties constitutes a dialect continuum, many of which are not mutually intelligible}} |
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is a bit misleading since the two main dialects of Kurdish, Sorani and Kurmanji, are often considered to be mutually intelligible, or at least partially mutually intelligible<ref>{{Cite thesis |title=Diachronic Study of English Loan Words in the Central Kurdish Dialect in Media Political Discourse |url=https://figshare.le.ac.uk/articles/thesis/Diachronic_Study_of_English_Loan_Words_in_the_Central_Kurdish_Dialect_in_Media_Political_Discourse/10244996/1 |publisher=University of Leicester |date=2018-02-01 |degree=thesis |language=en |first=Dashne Azad |last=Sedeeq |page=33}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=Nationalism and Language in Kurdistan, 1918-1985 - ProQuest |url=https://www.proquest.com/docview/218542924?sourcetype=Scholarly%20Journals |access-date=2024-05-02 |website=www.proquest.com |page=24 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=Examination of the Impacts of Socio Demographics, Immigration and Language on the Acculturation of American Kurds in the United States - ProQuest |url=https://www.proquest.com/openview/036b618583299a389d465817d9995e45/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750 |access-date=2024-05-02 |website=www.proquest.com |page=8 |language=en}}</ref> |
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Still, the level of mutual intelligibility among Kurdish dialects is a matter of dispute,<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Haig |first=Geoffrey |last2=Öpengin |first2=Ergin |date=2018 |title=Kurmanji Kurdish in Turkey: Structure, varieties, and status |url=https://fis.uni-bamberg.de/handle/uniba/45103 |journal=Linguistic minorities in Turkey and Turkic-speaking minorities of the periphery}}</ref> so I think it's best to remain neutral here. Therefore, I would suggest making these changes or something similar. |
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{{td |Kurdish varieties constitutes a dialect continuum many of which are not [[Mutually intelligible]] |Kurdish varieties constitute a dialect continuum}} |
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{{td |Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, which are not mutually intelligible without acquired bilingualism |Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility}} [[User:Akam Nawzad|Akam Nawzad]] ([[User talk:Akam Nawzad|talk]]) 01:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{mostly done}} [[User:FunLater|FunLater]] ([[User talk:FunLater|talk]]) 09:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{talk reflist}} |
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== Colour-blind friendly maps == |
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Would it be possible to use a colourblind-friendly map? [[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:48BF:E460:E97B:C826:A3D9:E433|2A02:8108:48BF:E460:E97B:C826:A3D9:E433]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:48BF:E460:E97B:C826:A3D9:E433|talk]]) 11:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC) |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kurdish language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | On 15 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Kurdish languagestoKurdish language. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I see some discussions about early kurdish texts but i never see the earlist text itself and date of it. Was is it kurmanji? I couldn't find a date for proto kurdish in academical papers in that matter. It is also missing in wiki page "List of languages by first written accounts". Can someone fill this gap without any nationalist non-sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.251.63.42 (talk) 10:05, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I found info in cambridge history of kurds page 613. It says first proper kurdish text is 4 short lines in christian missionary prayer.ISBN 978-1-108-47335-4 I hope an editor would enter this important info in the article.i am copying from the book:
The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). Th
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.38.157.239 (talk) 18:54, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit requesttoKurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
History tab
History tab begins with highly controversal sources. Stating first attested kurdish texts is from 9 to 13th centuries. First attested kurdish text is from 14th century. It is four short lines from a prayer. First attested text iand its date is very important for all languages. History section needs to start with this info and controversal topics should follow it as an additional info if wont be removed at all. Please also refer to talk page.
p613: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). 109.38.157.239 (talk) 19:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
References
{{edit extended-protected}}
template. This is clearly controversial. Should be resolved by talk page discussion. I'll note that the other source is also form a reputable publisher. Without context as to what each source is reporting, I'm not able to figure out whether this is a legitimate conflict between sources or if the two sources are reporting different things RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]{{Edit extended-protected}}
template. Lightoil (talk) 12:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{Edit semi-protected}}
template. @84.29.122.234, do not reopen this edit request as you did here without providing proper citations and gaining consensus for the changes you wish to make. Xan747 (talk) 00:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Although a couple of you made edits leading up to the war regarding the deletion of a map before it became a war, I'm pinging all of you here just in case: Ayıntaplı, Serchia, Semsûrî, Paradise Chronicle, see WP:Edit warring. Largoplazo (talk) 10:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit requesttoKurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Kurdish language map was updated recently and for some reason the colors were changed. We need to manually update the colors on the map legend on every page that contains the map 195.169.52.91 (talk) 13:19, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit requesttoKurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello, I suggest this edit: In the section of where this language is official please remove that is official only in the Kurdistan RegionofIraq, when is official in ALL Iraq. 186.3.232.209 (talk) 20:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What does a dialect that has not been the mother tongue of any state throughout history, is not found in written sources, and has no speakers before the 20th century, on Wikipedia? Royroy23 (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The correct thing is to write the parts on this page in the Persian dialects section. Royroy23 (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit requesttoKurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Adding the important fact that many kurdish languages are not mutually intelligible, which was missing from the lead.
In the lead, replace:
Kurdish constitutes a dialect continuum
With:
Kurdish languages constitutes a dialect continuum many of which are not Mutually intelligible
(citing this source: https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=JZ6JAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA27) 156.208.108.3 (talk) 18:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit requesttoKurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
First paragraph in the history tab should be deleted: During his stay in Damascus, historian Ibn Wahshiyya came across two books on agriculture written in Kurdish, one on the culture of the vine and the palm tree, and the other on water and the means of finding it out in unknown ground. He translated both from Kurdish into Arabic in the early 9th century AD.
Instead we need to add: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b)
Beginning of second paragraph: Among the earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book, the sacred book of Yazidi faith.
Should be changed as: Possible earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book whose authenticity is questioned and believed to be a fusion of authentic Yazidi traditions and beliefs with Western forgeries.
First paragraph is referring to a book "Ancient Alphabets and Hieroglyphic Characters Explained" by Ibn Wahshiyya. But it is falsely attributed to him as discussed in Later influence section in Ibn Wahshiyya. It is forgery or not a reliable source at best.
Yazidi Black book is also not a reliable source as discussed in the first paragraph of Yazidi Black Book.
I am simply trying to have consistency among referred wikipedia pages. We have already consensus on the content and sources on those pages. We also have a section in talk page on this topic. No objection is raised for nearly two years.
I am adding source for the first proper text in Kurdish below. It is in page 613.
84.29.122.234 (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
References
84.29.122.234 (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the map showing the kurdish language, by the colors it’s written the type of kurdish languages but not souther kurdish, its just written kurmanji as pink, and sorani as red, while southern kurdish is brown but it didn’t say that under the map 2001:8F8:1B27:415B:D180:CAA4:544C:BB4F (talk) 09:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kurdish speaker are more than this couse many people are starting to learn the language plus some kurds now have rights to learn their language especialy northren kurdistan people just started to have more edaction about it couse back on the day kurdis was banned and also it was dangrous to many to speak it so please fix this Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The result of the move request was: moved Kurdish languagestoKurdish language. There is consensus to treat the Kurdish language the same way as other languages in a similar situation and use the singular. There is no consensus to move it to the basename "Kurdish" due to possible ambiguity with other articles mentioned at Kurdish. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
– The title of this article could be either "Kurdish Language," aligning with the naming convention of other Wikipedia articles discussing "macro" languages or languages forming a dialect continuum, such as "Norwegian Language" or "Chinese Language," which are in a similar situation to Kurdish. Alternatively, we may consider simplifying it to just "Kurdish," similar to the "Arabic" Wikipedia article, thereby sidestepping any contentious debates and maintaining a neutral stance. It seems unjustified for Kurdish to be the only article labeled with "Languages" when there is no consensus on whether it comprises multiple related languages or a single language with various dialects. Kurdian (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus (talk) 04:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why are these sections empty? Most language articles have a short summary of their language's phonology, grammar and writing system, but for some reason in the Kurdish Languages article it's completely empty? Silveratractic (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You forget georgia sweden and thee maby more recognise it as a minority language Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not related to the language but, what is name of the font of Sorani letters? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish_Language.svg
-Luke 70.162.148.16 (talk) 18:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
add references:
Sheyholislami, Jaffer, Hassanpour, Amir, and Skutnabb-Kangas, Tove. 2012. The Kurdish Linguistic Landscape:
Vitality, Linguicide and Resistance. Special issue of International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 2917(2012). Jaffersh (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not here to disturb the page or add any, I’m just curious as to why the Kurdish dialects are considered not intelligible? From my understanding and experience, I understand a Kurmanji, Hewrami, Laki and Zazaki way more than Persian, which to me personally sounds like gibberish and not close to Kurdish at all (This was my experience with Shirazi and Gilan Persian)
Other than my rant above, I just want to know why this is included because it is still debated whether Kurdish dialects are dialects or languages (most people who argue the latter usually have an anti-kurdish POV based on experience) Volkish Kurden (talk) 23:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
kurdish is not a language group where do you even get this idea like we always say its kurdish language not languages yes we sometimes have misunderstand each other or never know what the other person talk about but that happen in all languages even in english arabic spanish and other languages this happen to british and americans when speaking english they never understand what the other says or scotts and english people never understand eachother Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The claim that
Kurdish varieties constitutes a dialect continuum, many of which are not mutually intelligible
is a bit misleading since the two main dialects of Kurdish, Sorani and Kurmanji, are often considered to be mutually intelligible, or at least partially mutually intelligible[1][2][3]
Still, the level of mutual intelligibility among Kurdish dialects is a matter of dispute,[4] so I think it's best to remain neutral here. Therefore, I would suggest making these changes or something similar.
− |
Kurdish varieties | + | Kurdish varieties constitute a dialect continuum |
− |
Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, | + | Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility |
Akam Nawzad (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
References
Would it be possible to use a colourblind-friendly map? 2A02:8108:48BF:E460:E97B:C826:A3D9:E433 (talk) 11:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]