→DATETIES vs. DATEVAR: copy edit to avoid changing first-level list style unnecessarily (* was changed to :), which causes screen readers to make extra list end/start announcements
To address both viewpoints, we could add a new sentence to the manual of style, such as {{tq|For articles about non-English-speaking country, the date format used should generally match the one most commonly found in English-language sources from that country.}} For example, in the case of Japan, the mdy format is used because English-language sources from Japan such as [https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/ NHK], [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/ Japan Times], [https://mainichi.jp/english/ Mainichi], [https://www.asahi.com/ajw/ Asahi Shimbun]and [https://english.kyodonews.net/ Kyodo News] all use it.. What do you think about this suggestion? [[User:Ckfasdf|Ckfasdf]] ([[User talk:Ckfasdf|talk]]) 03:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
To address both viewpoints, we could add a new sentence to the manual of style, such as {{tq|For articles about non-English-speaking country, the date format used should generally match the one most commonly found in English-language sources from that country.}} For example, in the case of Japan, the mdy format is used because English-language sources from Japan such as [https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/ NHK], [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/ Japan Times], [https://mainichi.jp/english/ Mainichi], [https://www.asahi.com/ajw/ Asahi Shimbun]and [https://english.kyodonews.net/ Kyodo News] all use it.. What do you think about this suggestion? [[User:Ckfasdf|Ckfasdf]] ([[User talk:Ckfasdf|talk]]) 03:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
::No, no, no. First of all, a provision addressing articles "about a non-English-speaking country" is useless, because it would only apply to the articles [[Japan]] and [[Russia]] and [[Rwanda]] and so on. Second, changing "ties to an English-speaking country" to just plain "ties to a country" is an absolutely terrible idea, as I will describe below. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 08:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
::No, no, no. First of all, a provision addressing articles "about a non-English-speaking country" is useless, because it would only apply to the articles [[Japan]] and [[Russia]] and [[Rwanda]] and so on. Second, changing "ties to an English-speaking country" to just plain "ties to a country" is an absolutely terrible idea, as I will describe below. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 08:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
:Not sure why we are duplicating the discussion that is at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#MOS on date format by country]]. Anyway...
:Not sure why we are duplicating the discussion that is at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#MOS on date format by country]]. Anyway...
:Beware that Japan does <u>not</u> have a default English language format. They use whichever format they have business partners with or whichever format the individual person learnt from his/her teachers. If they deal more with Brits/Aussies then they use DMY. If they deal more with yanks then they use MDY. The sources you listed are all closely tied to finances and the US leads the world's economy (rightly or wrongly), so therefore they follow MDY. Plenty of other sources from other industries in Japan use DMY too.
:Beware that Japan does <u>not</u> have a default English language format. They use whichever format they have business partners with or whichever format the individual person learnt from his/her teachers. If they deal more with Brits/Aussies then they use DMY. If they deal more with yanks then they use MDY. The sources you listed are all closely tied to finances and the US leads the world's economy (rightly or wrongly), so therefore they follow MDY. Plenty of other sources from other industries in Japan use DMY too.
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Integers from zero to nine are spelled out in words."
I wonder why is "from zero to nine" instead of "from zero to ten"? We humans have ten fingers, we learn how to count from one to ten since we were little kids. If we learn a foreign language, the first thing we learn is words like hello, thank you, good bye, and count from one to ten. It doesn't make sense that only integers from zero to nine shoulde be spelled out in words. It should be integers from one to ten. 120.16.218.233 (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but cats have nine lives, so it makes perfect sense actually. GiantSnowman 17:19, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I really think that in article text, integers from zero to ten should be spelled out in words (i.e. ten years ago not 10 years ago). 120.16.218.233 (talk) 17:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't say that "only integers from zero to nine shoulde be spelled out in words". We do say that Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words and proceed to qualify that in several ways, allowing for either "10" or "ten" to be used as appropriate. NebY (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve thought this for a long time, so agree with you. Numbers expressed as words are easier to read and don’t visually interrupt a sentence in the same way as does sticking figures in the middle of it. IMHO figures should only be used when multiple words are needed to express the quantity. MapReader (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Numbers expressed as words are easier to read". My experience is the opposite. I find it much easier to express numbers as numerals always. I only express them in words when English convention says Thou Must Use Words For Small Numbers but I never liked it. Mind you, I spend most days writing software and doing engineering stuff, so I may not represent the typical reader. Stepho talk 11:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. We should be looking to REDUCE the instances of "numbers as words", not increase them. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I have no strong preference one way or the other, adding ten to the numbers for which words are preferred would be fine with me. Ten is indeed just one more character than 10, so it's the number easiest to spell out. Gawaon (talk) 19:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some other style guides:
The BBC News Style Guide has "For the most part, we use words for single-figure numbers, digits for anything above nine (ie eight, nine, 10, 11)" followed by various exceptions.[1]
The Guardian and Observer style guide has "Spell out from one to nine; numerals from 10 to 999,999 ...."[2]
According to the same discussion, the Oxford Style Manual (2003) had "In non-technical contexts, OUP style is to use words for numbers below 100."
Fowler's Modern English Usage (4th edn) has "Figures should be used when the matter consists of a sequence of stated quantities [e.g.] The past 12 months show an increase of 5 tons" and "In descriptive matter, numbers under 100 should be in words, but write 90 to 100, not ninety to 100."
Proposal The IP user brought up an interesting point. Why "from zero to nine"? Why not "from zero to seven, eight, ten, or eleven"? I propose that we change the rule to "Integers from zero to twenty are spelled out in words". If we can express a number in a single, simple English word, then use the English word. If more than one word or a hyphen is involved (e.g. twenty-one, one hundred and one), use the numerals. N. Mortimer (talk) 00:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Against - Existing form (words for single digits, numerals for more) works fine. Examples for each:
There 14 reasons to object.
There are fourteen reasons to object.
The numeral form is so much more compact, quicker to type, quicker to read, requires less effort to understand and the quirks of spelling for 11-19 are avoided for our English as a second language audience (why is 11,12 different to 13-19; why is 13-19 different to 23-29, etc?). Keep it simple. Stepho talk 01:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you also support my proposal of adding "ten" to the mix? Thank you. Ten is a very simple word, I think all people with a basic understanding of English know this word.
By the way, even if we use "14" instead of "fourteen" in your sentence example, we can't really omit the "are", but I agree with you that numbers greater than ten should be written in the numeral form. 120.16.218.233 (talk) 09:57, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I forgot to type in "are" for the first example. My mistake.
Oh dear, it looks like only 1 of us knows how to count up to 2. "10" is not a single digit, so "words for single digits, numerals for more" means I support "10", not "ten". Stepho talk 10:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you support "ten"? "Ten" is shorter than "three", "seven" or "eight". People like to group things in even numbers, not odd numbers (because they are odd 😂). 120.16.218.233 (talk) 23:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because "10" is not a single digit. Am I saying this wrong? Should I type slower? Should I use words with one syllable or less? Stepho talk 00:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Spelling out such simply words is already allowed, it shouldn't be required. It's very hard to see why 17 should be treated differently than 27, and if this rule were adapted, it would logically have to apply to thirty, forty etc. as well. Gawaon (talk) 04:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it should logically apply to thirty, forty etc. And the reason is obvious; single spelled words are easier to read than interrupting a sentence with digits, but that advantage weakens when multiple words are required to spell out a number. MapReader (talk) 06:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I find "The applicants' ages ranged from seventeen to seventy" harder and less convenient to read than "The applicants' ages ranged from 17 to 70". Especially, in latter sentence the numbers stand out, making them very easy to detect when one skims a text quickly, which is not the case in the former sentence. Gawaon (talk) 07:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's why we should make "ten" the cut-off point:
No. As spelt out in the very next sentence after Integers from zero to nine are spelled out in words, we already allow that Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words, both subject to and extended by the following notes and exceptions. This is appropriately flexible; the mere fact that single words exist for some numbers does not meant they are always the best way for readers to take in quantitative information, even when reading the text closely rather than skimming it for key points – as many encyclopedia readers do. Our manual is in keeping here with at least some other major style guides, and has served as stable guidance and a sound reference point for Wikipedia editors for many years. NebY (talk) 18:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care whether the boundary is at non, ten, or eleven. Tony(talk) 04:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have a question regarding numbers. What if a number below 10 is part of a larger number that is partially spelled out? For example, 3 million, 4 thousand, 6 hundred, etc? Also note that numbers below 10 are not spelled out in {{Convert}} which is inconsistent with this MOS. Volcanoguy 17:48, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just happened to see this pop up; I'll record that, while I don't think it's a big deal, it would make sense to me to include "ten" as the last use-words number. I think that's what I learned in typing class. Also the English names up through ten all have five letters or fewer, whereas from eleven on they generally have six or more (the exceptions I can think of being "forty", "fifty", "sixty" — I think that's it? unless you count mega, which few people would). One thing we should emphasize in any case is to avoid mixing; don't say the winner got 13 points and the loser got seven. But I assume without checking that this is already mentioned. --Trovatore (talk) 18:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I know without checking that it is. EEng 18:19, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per MOS:FRAC: Spelled-out fractions are hyphenated.
Should this always be so? I noticed One half doesn't abide in its title, and there are potential ambiguities in use. Remsense诉 05:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See existing (but closed) discussion at Talk:One half, on a failed proposal to move it to one-half. In particular, there, jacobolus wrote MOS:FRAC is straight up wrong here, and should be changed. Whether to add a hyphen depends on the grammatical context. Some others (myself included) agreed. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, it seems to make more sense to add a hyphen when they are used as modifier (adjective), but not when used as noun. Gawaon (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On this basis there is clearly no consensus for the rule as stated, so I removed it until there is agreement on what it should be replaced by. My view is that of Gawaon. For example
"Hyphenate a spelled-out fraction used as a modifier" or similar seems like a fine rule to include. –jacobolus(t) 16:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had WP:BOLDly edited the page and suggested the following wording: "Spelled-out fractions are hyphenated before a noun (They won a two-thirds majority), but not when used stand-alone (The distance was seven eighths of a mile)." That change was reverted so it seems more discussion is needed. Gawaon (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, the latest Fowler's Modern English describes real-world usage of the hyphen as "chaos", notes it's on the wane "even in British English", identifies some main uses (creating a single unit of meaning (dry-clean); phrases in front of nouns (up-to-date record, well-known man); with prefixes (ex-husband, re-cover); in lists (two- or three-fold); to avoid misinterpretation (extra-marital sex); with phrasal verbs, as a mistake; in printing,to break a word) but doesn't address this question directly.
Two-thirds majority fits Fowler's first and second usages; I think seven-eighths of a mile fits Fowler's first, a single unit of meaning, especially considering its other representations (0.875, 7/8). NebY (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I've got the energy to stick with this discussion, but let me point something out. In he walked three quarters of a mile, I'm not sure the phrase "three quarters" is a fraction; seems to me it's 3 quarters, if you get my meaning. EEng 17:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do, but though that works in I ate three quarters of the quattro stagioni (but not the mushrooms) or even he ran three quarters of the mile (but walked the third one), by itself he walked three quarters of a mile is no more than he walked 3/4 mile. NebY (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just throwing this out: "he played three quarters of the basketball game" (it has four quarters), versus "he watched three-quarters of the movie". Just wondering. Bubba73You talkin' to me? 04:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would you really write them differently? I would tend to write them the same (both without a hyphen). Gawaon (talk) 05:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What would you say if the sentence is, "he played in three quarters of the basketball game"? To me, that reads that he played in at least part of each of three quarters of the games (say, from the middle of the second quarter to the middle of the fourth quarter), but not necessarily for a full three-quarters of the games. A bit contrived, but edge cases test rules. Donald Albury 16:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, I'd say that "he played in three quarters of the basketball game" might mean that he played less compared to "he played three quarters of the basketball game", which is more likely to give the total length of his play. However, I'd say if the use or non-use of a hyphen should depend on such subtleties, we're overcomplicating things. According to the rule I favour, no hyphen should be used in either case. Gawaon (talk) 17:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it make a difference with fourths instead of quarters? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure. To be honest, I was quite sleep-deprived when I made that post and I'm not sure now how exactly I thought it would clarify anything. :( What about the case of "one half"? There's no "one twoth". EEng 07:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"One half" is somewhat an exception because it is used so commonly (cf. first, second, third, instead of oneth, twoth, threeth). The same goes for "one quarter" (though "one fourth" is an accepted alternative). I don't see anything wrong with the phrase "three quarters of a mile", that's just 3*(1/4) mi = 3/4 mi. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 10:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say there's anything wrong with it. I was just pointing out, since this discussion is nominally about fractions, that it may not be clear that "three quarters" (and so on) actually is a fraction. EEng 20:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's clear that a "quarter" is 1/4. A quarter of an hour is 15 min. A quarter of a dollar is 25 cents. I'm sorry, I'm not sure where the confusion lies. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 09:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since you press the point: no, it's not clear. "Three quarters" might be a fraction (3/4), or it might be three times a fraction (3 · 1/4), but not itself a fraction. EEng 09:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3/4 and 3(1/4) are both the same, just expressed differently. One can choose interpret "three quarters" as the former and the problem would be solved. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 09:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC); edited 09:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3/4 and 3(1/4) are both the same, just expressed differently – Wow, and to think I spent all that money on a degree in applied math from Harvard, and they never taught me that. If what you're saying is really true, then I'm going to ask for my money back! Next you'll be telling me that (1/x) ·x=1.
One can choose interpret "three quarters" as the former – You're contradicting yourself. If the two things are the same, then choosing between them makes no sense, since (says you) they're both the same -- there's no choice to be made. But they're not the same. That's the point. One's a fraction and one is an integer times a fraction, in which case the question of "how to write fractions" doesn't apply to it.
Are you saying that "one eighth" is a fraction, but "three eighths" isn't? That would be a highly original interpretation of "fraction". Gawaon (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. If we interpret "three eighths" not as a fraction, but rather as an integer followed by a fraction, then "one eighth" is also not a fraction. EEng 17:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How silly of me! All those Aristotlean logic I learned for nothing! ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 10:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All those grammar, too! EEng 17:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily. The fraction 3/4 can be seen as indicating a cohesive part. While 3(1/4) would equal the same amount, it might not be a single "thing". For example, imagine a cake cut into 8 equal parts (labeled 1-8 in clockwise fashion). If I eat pieces 1-6, then I can be said to have eaten 3/4 of the cake and also to have eaten 3 of the quarters of the cake. However, If I eat pieces 2-4 and 6-8, then I can be said to have eaten 3/4 of the cake but not to have eaten 3 of the quarters of the cake. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
^ This guy gets it. EEng 17:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think rarely in articles, you would dig into the nitty-gritty of how it came to 3/4. In the original example (he walked three quarters of a mile), no reader would be perplexed as to if he walked three (quarters of a mile)or(three quarters) of a mile. If you really want to specify that he either walked in quarter miles, taking breaks along the way, or walked 0.75 miles in one go, then say it.
In User:Khajidha's example, there is a fraction in both cases: said to have eaten 3/4 of the cake and also to have eaten 3 of the quarters of the cake (here, 3/4 is "three quarters"); and have eaten 3/4 of the cake but not to have eaten 3 of the quarters of the cake (also 3/4 aka "three quarters"). So "three quarters" is a fraction either way. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 19:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I.e., basically what Chicago is saying in the passage I quoted below? (And using the same example, incidentally!) Graham (talk) 03:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for "used stand-alone", that is when the denominator of the fraction is not an attribute, that's when it shouldn't be hyphenated (according to the discussion). An attribute is optional, so if you remove it, it still makes grammatical sense. For example, They won a three-quarters majority (not standalone), if you remove "three-quarters", it makes grammatical sense; whereas They won a majority of three quarters (standalone), if you remove "three quarters", it makes no sense. Thus, NebY's example above (seven-eighths of a mile) should not be hyphenated because there, the attribute is "of a mile". ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 10:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was my proposal (also suggested by others), and I still think it makes a lot of sense and reflects widespread usage fairly well. EEng, if you think the used wording was unclear, maybe you have a suggestion on how to improve it? Gawaon (talk) 11:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We could explain it linguistically and note that hiding attributes would still make grammatical sense: Spelled-out fractions are hyphenated when it is used as an attribute (They won a two-thirds majority), but not when used stand-alone (The distance was seven eighths of a mile). Rule of thumb: hyphenate if removing the fraction would still make grammatical sense. Instead of "when used stand-alone", we could dig deeper into linguistics and say "when the denominator is used as the head noun of the phrase", but I doubt that would be any more clear. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 11:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC); edited 11:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I might not hyphenate if the emphasis was on the denominator, but that's a more narrow exception and perhaps more traditionalist. NebY (talk) 12:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The suggested wording sounds fine for me. Gawaon (talk) 13:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lol1VNIO's suggestion makes sense to me too. I would just replace "when it used" with "when used". Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we were writing here for The New Yorker or some other highfalutin publication, we could, perhaps, follow a more complex style, but in the encyclopedia anyone can edit, simple rules are better. It's like the comma after a mdy date. Sometimes there is no need for a comma after May 20, 2024, but it is so much easier to always use it and it doesn't hurt anything. Let's stick with the hyphen in written out fractions. One half may or may not be correct, but we can live with some inconsistency. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 11:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with others that I don't think it makes sense to hyphenate fractions where they are being used as compound modifiers. However, to maintain consistency with MOS:HYPHEN, I would suggest that we further specify that we only use hyphens with fractions where it is being used as an attributiveorsubstantive modifier (which is what I think most of us have in mind anyway) rather than a predicative modifier. Graham (talk) 04:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our manual of style has to be plain and direct, providing easily understood guidance to all editors who need it, not only those who are trained in the use of high-falutin' terms like attributive, substantive, predicative and modifier. NebY (talk) 11:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Australian style guide says Use a hyphen in fractions written out in words (eg two-thirds). I oppose any change to the MOS. Hawkeye7(discuss) 04:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's "the Australian style guide"? Anyway, our old rule stating the same has already been thrown out. The question is now what to replace it with. Gawaon (talk) 05:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's here, along with Write fractions in full in running text, and use a hyphen. The Australian govenment's style manual has Hyphens link parts of a fraction.[3]NebY (talk) 10:33, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC News Style Guide has simply three-quarters (and other fractions).[4]NebY (talk) 10:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Purdue has a collection of style guides; I only found Use a hyphen with compound numbers: forty-six, sixty-three, Our much-loved teacher was sixty-three years old.[5]NebY (talk) 10:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not really relevant to fractions. Graham (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is relevant when the only guidance on compund numbers is to hyphenate; that includes fractions. Back in 2007, we stated it as Spelled-out two-word numbers from 21 to 99 are hyphenated (fifty-six), as are fractions (seven-eighths)[6] (it may have been on some other MOS page before then). NebY (talk) 15:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"as are fractions" are the key words there, which are absent from the cited article. Graham (talk) 04:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
9.14 Simple fractions. Simple fractions are spelled out. For the sake of readability and to lend an appearance of consistency, they are hyphenated in noun, adjective, and adverb forms. In the rare event that individual parts of a quantity are emphasized, however, as in the last example, the expression is unhyphenated. See also 7.89, section 1, under fractions, simple. For decimal fractions, see 9.19.
She has read three-fourths of the book.
Four-fifths of the students are boycotting the class.
I do not want all of your material; two-thirds is quite enough.
A two-thirds majority is required.
but
We divided the cake into four quarters; I took three quarters, and my brother one.
Thanks for that. In short, Chicago supports our Spelled-out fractions are hyphenated with one minor exception. NebY (talk) 15:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merriam-Webster online gives for three-quarters Three-quarters of the class will be going on the trip and three-quarters of an hour, plus many "Recent Examples on the Web", each using three-quarters of, hyphenated: nearly three-quarters of those using the feature (WSJ); three-quarters of lawmakers (Anchorage Daily News); three-quarters of a percentage point (Los Angeles Times) and more.[9]NebY (talk) 18:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Lol1VNIO Thank you. I do not consider myself as someone who writes or contributes to style manuals so I do not know the answers to these questions, but:
@LightNightLights: The guide already links to Currency symbols, specifically to #dollar variants, though a link to the page after "full, unambiguous signifier" wouldn't be a bad idea. As for templating every currency, not really. It makes sense in some (฿100) but others you can just enter on your keyboard. Often, you're familiar with a set of currencies that you don't need to look up, anyway. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Lol1VNIO I swear that I fully read MOS:CURRENCY multiple times, but I didn't notice the Currency symbols link. I am not sure how to correctly add the link after "full, unambiguous signifier", so I am okay with you adding it. LightNightLights (talk • contribs) 10:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps add suggestions to consider using {{currency}}, {{USD}} and similar. Stepho talk 06:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The answer is yes, we should use the local date format regardless of the language spoken. GiantSnowman 17:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DATETIES vs. DATEVAR
I agree with Eeng's edit to make it even clearer that DATEVAR is referring to DATETIES when it says "strong national ties". This was already clear to me, but it seems like the change will help avoid an interpretation that would put the two in parts of the guideline in conflict with each other. It has been evident since this guidance was first added that the two parts are meant to be harmonious. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally think it's pretty silly to have MDY set on articles whose topic doesn't touch North America. It's just awkward to work with when most quotes and literature will be in the other format. Remsense诉 18:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"most quotes" is an interesting one. I could see that being a strong basis for change based on talk page consensus. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's also cultural reasons when terminology used in the article is usually tied to a certain order. I do feel this is a distinct issue from ENGVAR. Remsense诉 18:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This all started with Lisa del Giocondo using MDY, even though Italy used DMY and all related significant articles to that one use DMY... GiantSnowman 18:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but I meant examples of "terminology used in the article" that is "tied to a certain order". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll retract this for now, as I can't actually think of a good example. I'll update this if one pops into my head. Remsense诉 19:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't actually really care if you want to tweak the wording here. However, my strong position remains that we should use the local date format regardless of the language spoken. Remove "English-speaking countries" to reflect this. GiantSnowman 18:01, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not at all opposed to changing the guidelines collectively so that they match your preference here. It's just that I do conceive of that as being a substantive change, and I'd like to see it run through the proper process. In the meantime, I think it's important that we have language in our guideline that is internally consistent. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I too think that EEng's change (which was reverted by GiantSnowman) is constructive – it's very clearly just expressing what the current guidelines are meant to express, just didn't quite as clearly because (I suppose) nobody thought that the brief backreference to the more detailed language in DATETIES would be misinterpreted. Gawaon (talk) 18:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree that EEng's change was a good one that added clarity to established style. Doremo (talk) 18:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with this, which reflects my impression of how most articles already are, except where someone has decided to make date format an issue. MapReader (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"English-speaking countries" is appropriate in the guidelines. There is no reason why English-language material on Wikipedia should be subordinated to a pattern in a non-English language—whether this is date format, punctuation, alphabetization, calendrical system, numbering system, first/last name order, or any other language feature. Doremo (talk) 18:23, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, there are pretty clear distinctions there: some concern how a specific language is written, and others are invariant of the language being written. Also wait, name order? Are you suggesting we put every biography by default in given-family order, assuming there's not an existing English-language COMMONNAME? That's loony.Remsense诉 18:25, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's right. Looking at a non-English language to decide how to write English is loony, as you put it. Doremo (talk) 18:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are painting with the world's broadest brush and conflating a lot of different things into "English vs. non-English", and it sounds ridiculous. It's not how any other publication on Earth would do things. Remsense诉 18:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, this would result in new biographies of Chinese people being written in an order that is used by no one except us, and then we would always have to change it to the right way around when we notice that other English-language sources are doing the natural, obvious thing. Inane. Remsense诉 18:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
GiantSnowman, since you seem most committed to getting this changed, could you suggest a rewording to MOS:DATETIES that you would prefer? To discuss this, I think it would help to know what specifically the alternative would be – and when I look at DATETIES, it doesn't seem all that trivial to find one. Gawaon (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no issues with EEng's proposed wording, minus "a particular English-speaking country", which instead should just be "a particular country" or "particular date format" or similar. GiantSnowman 19:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to see us make a change that would cause us to use 2024 June 18 (nor 2024-06-18) as the main date format for articles about Japan-related topics. For this sort of reason, I prefer to continue to restrict this guideline to only apply to English-speaking countries, and I would prefer to reinstate EEng's edit to clarify this continued restriction. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what anyone wants. DMY is preferable to MDY since we naturally don't use YMD. Remsense诉 19:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the date formats used are DMY or MDY. In my experience Japanese topics tend to use MDY. GiantSnowman 19:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, that's currently the case (since your suggested rule modification is not yet in force), but can anyone of us say with any certainly which date formats are usual in arbitrary non-English-speaking countries? If it's YMD or YDM or something like that, that would be quite awkward to try to mimic in English. Hence I think just striking "English-speaking" is not going to fly. Gawaon (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The usual Japanese format appears to be Y-M-D, written out in numerals, with kanji after each number specifying what it is [10]. If we were required to follow national ties for non-English-speaking countries, some kind of Y-M-D format would be the one. Probably YYYY-MM-DD since that's the only one in that order that matches our MOS. GiantSnowman, if you want the guideline to be "follow national ties only for countries that have M-D-Y or D-M-Y format and otherwise do something else" then you need to be more specific rather than focusing the current discussion on following national ties more generally for all non-English-speaking countries. It sounds to me like your intended proposal is really "allow Americans to use M-D-Y and force all other topics to use D-M-Y", regardless of whether that is relevant for the nation in question. Your experience of what we have historically tended to use for our articles on topics from those countries is not particularly relevant. National ties means ties to a format used by people in that nation, not accidents of past Wikipedia editing. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since, for good reasons, the "Manual of Style/Dates and numbers" only allows the YYYY-MM-DD format for dates from the year AD 1583 and onward, and only for Gregorian dates, some articles with strong ties to some countries in eastern Asia would not be able to use the YYYY-MM-DD format. And what about other than dates containing the year, month, and day. How would a date like June 18 be formatted? Where would an English-speaking editor find that information? Jc3s5h (talk) 20:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since "List of date formats by country" was written and is maintained by the same editing community that inhabits this talk page, except editors seem to pay less attention to it, I pay no attention to it. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I pay no attention to the article, because I have no confidence in its factual correctness. I pay attention to the style manual because style manuals are arbitrary decisions by a publication. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand GiantSnowman's concern about using the local date format regardless of the language spoken. However, I also recognize the concerns of other editors, such as David Eppstein, that using local date formats could introduce non-dmy or non-mdy date formats, such as Japan's yyyy-mm-dd.
To address both viewpoints, we could add a new sentence to the manual of style, such as For articles about non-English-speaking country, the date format used should generally match the one most commonly found in English-language sources from that country. For example, in the case of Japan, the mdy format is used because English-language sources from Japan such as NHK, Japan Times, Mainichi, Asahi Shimbunand Kyodo News all use it.. What do you think about this suggestion? Ckfasdf (talk) 03:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, no, no. First of all, a provision addressing articles "about a non-English-speaking country" is useless, because it would only apply to the articles Japan and Russia and Rwanda and so on. Second, changing "ties to an English-speaking country" to just plain "ties to a country" is an absolutely terrible idea, as I will describe below. EEng 08:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beware that Japan does not have a default English language format. They use whichever format they have business partners with or whichever format the individual person learnt from his/her teachers. If they deal more with Brits/Aussies then they use DMY. If they deal more with yanks then they use MDY. The sources you listed are all closely tied to finances and the US leads the world's economy (rightly or wrongly), so therefore they follow MDY. Plenty of other sources from other industries in Japan use DMY too.
I'm in favour of adding an extra rule something like For topics closely tied to a country that uses DMY or MDY (the 2 formats used in English) then that format should be used.
And we continue to avoid local formats that are not DMY or MDY from prose, using the existing first-come rule for anything else. Stepho talk 06:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that would be fine with me too. Broaden the "close ties" rule, but only for cases where DMY or MDY are locally dominant. Gawaon (talk) 06:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for duplicating discussions: I think this is the best place to have this discussion, since it's the talk page of the page where the rule is formulated. Gawaon (talk) 06:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this would be fine. Remsense诉 06:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean the proposed "should generally match the one most commonly found in English-language sources from that country" wording? Gawaon (talk) 07:27, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, the more I think about it the more I think that that particular wording would be highly impractical to actually use. We know that DMY is dominant in Italian-language publications, but it would shift the burden to English-language publications coming out of Italy. Which are those, and how do we find them? Do we have to make statistics on English-language publications from (say) Ethiopia before we can write about topics related to that country? Gawaon (talk) 07:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see it as that problematic? Something like If there is a clear preference in English-language publications from the country, use that. If not, defer to the choice of the first main contributor. Maybe you see clear as a qualifier that will just be argued over, but I think it works as a safety valve here? Remsense诉 07:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no, I've just realized that both English People's Daily and Xinhua use MDY. What have I done! SCMP uses DMY though.Remsense诉 07:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so there we have one publication that uses one style and two that use the other one. Is that a "clear preference"? Almost certainly not – just find another publication and the score might be balanced. Also, do you know which date style English-language publications from Italy prefer? Even if you know (certainly only after doing your research, since you can't know without) where would the results of this WP:OR be documented so that others can know too? And why should we suddenly be expected to do OR here, which in Wikipedia is otherwise forbidden? Gawaon (talk) 08:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, I think I've now come around to EEng's formulation. Remsense诉 08:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This suggestion ("a country that uses DMY or MDY") is flawed for several reasons. First, it would make the English dependent on the patterns of a non-English language (i.e., follow the patterns of Korean, Finnish, etc. when writing about Korea, Finland, etc. in English). Second, many countries are not monolingual, and so the editor would need to choose which foreign language to imitate in English (note that it is languages that use DMY, MDY, YMD, etc., not countries per se). Third, it raises additional issues involving subordination of English to foreign languages (for example, Slovenian does not use the serial/Oxford comma, and so by analogy the English serial/Oxford comma would be forbidden in articles about Slovenia or Slovenian topics). Fourth, this places an onus on editors to conduct original research on languages: who really wants to study date format in TucanoorKhoekhoe before editing English-language articles about them? If the suggestion refers to "English-language sources from that country", this raises the additional burden of more original research (determining which English-language sources from county X are representative or dominant) and the problem that English-language sources produced in countries where English is not a native language are not reliable sources of standard English usage. The status quo at MOS:DATETIES and MOS:DATERET has worked well for years and should be retained. Doremo (talk) 07:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The status quo at MOS:DATETIES and MOS:DATERET has worked well for years and should be retained – Amen. There are two issues here:
Question 1: Was my edit [11] a substantive change, or merely a clarification of what was undoubtedly both the intent of the guideline and the (almost) universal understanding of it?
Answer: Gawaon (commenting above) has it right: my change was (if I do say so myself) very clearly just expressing what the current guidelines are meant to express, just didn't quite as clearly because (I suppose) nobody thought that the brief backreference to the more detailed language in DATETIES would be misinterpreted.
Question 2: Instead of changing DATERET's "country" to read "English-speaking country" -- thereby making its wording consistent with DATEVAR -- should we instead change DATEVAR's "English-speaking country" to just "country", so that everything now just says "country"?
Answer: This would be a disaster. The reason DATEVAR and DATERET are what they are (i.e. the test is English-speaking country, not just country -- even if DATERET is elliptic on that point) is this:
American editors (for example) find it dissonant to read that Roosevelt died "12 April 1945", while British readers feel the same about Churchill dying "January 24, 1965". The strong-ties provision says what to do in those cases, and edit-warring is avoided.
But what about Philip II of Macedon? Should he die "21 October 336 BC" or on "October 21, 336 BC". Should we use strong ties to figure that out? If so, are his ties to Macedonia, which doesn't exist anymore? Greece, maybe? OK, let's say we eventually settle on Greece -- then we have to research, and maybe argue about, which date format is used in Greece. And for what? Greek readers are reading the Phillip article on the Greek Wikipedia, not ours. We're not going to get a lot of editwarring over Phillip's date format.
This is why the guideline recognizes only ties to English-speaking countries: it's a restricted set of articles where "strong ties" are relatively easy to determine, where the associated country's date format is well known, and where editwarring to "correct" any Roosevelt-Churchill dissonance previously described is relatively likely. None of that applies to Phillip, and that's why the "first major contributor" test is the path of least resistance for that article (and other articles with no strong English-speaking country ties). (This isn't the best explanation I've ever given in my life, but it's the best I have time for.)
The purpose of the guideline is avoid style churn and editwarring, not to have the "just right" format for articles about Ethiopia. The idea that we're going to debate the clear preference in English-language publications from the country is either a joke or part of a plot to destroy Wikipedia from the inside. I modestly propose that we adopt my extremely excellent edit (linked earlier) -- which doesn't actually change anything, but rather clarifies what already exists -- and drop this mad idea of changing "English-speaking country" --> "country", which would open a Pandora's box to no benefit at all. All in favor? EEng 08:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In favor. Restore the clarification [12] by EEng and maintain the status quo. Doremo (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support the status quo ante (DATETIES applies only to English-speaking countries and DATERET applies in all other cases). Also support date formatting choices for readers (like we had 20 years ago). —Kusma (talk) 10:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In favour, let's keep the status quo, but including EEng's clarification which (while not changing it at all) makes misreadings less likely. I wasn't opposed to changing the rules to encourage DMY for countries where that's locally the default (many European countries at least), but making a clear-cut rule of out that seems more trouble than it's worth. Gawaon (talk) 10:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I say just so to EEng's edit at 8:45 in the morning on the 19th day of June in the year of our Lord 2024, Greenwich Mean Time. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The redirect Mos:DOB has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 25 § Mos:DOB until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 21:59, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
