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IMO, these are separate topics. For the former I edited the existing template including creating more groups. For the latter I just did a copy and paste onto a new template thus it needs much additional work. |
IMO, these are separate topics. For the former I edited the existing template including creating more groups. For the latter I just did a copy and paste onto a new template thus it needs much additional work. |
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--[[User:Denisebk|Denise B-K]] ([[User talk:Denisebk|talk]]) |
--[[User:Denisebk|Denise B-K]] ([[User talk:Denisebk|talk]]) |
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== Marcel colomb first nation page really outa date adding some info but could use help== |
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the code for wiki is so vastly overwelming never been able to fully wrap my head around it and keep getting yelled at over the years guna need help advice as everytime i wonder back somethings changed |
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i have images i can donate to mcfn page but am worried the system will just delete like everything ive ever put up on other articals i took acusing me of steeling my own stuff so confusing |
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couple people at the band put a call out localy for help with their wiki page there was an election in january and so it has the wrong cheif and councle and infact it has not been updated since 2020. internet has been very unstable till recently so no one realy accessed the web beyond email. the election was jan 30 2024 and it was their first proper vote to happen on their reserve vs in lynn lake |
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i have photos of election day and the cerimony i can donate to their page. |
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added their phone fax and mailing adress |
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updated inacurate information of telphone and internet services in the regon was 14yrs outa date |
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changed the very inacurat note on cell service as theres absolutly nothing for 400km's no idea why someone put saying it was avail |
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needs a write up about the agreement signed last year with alamos gold not sure best way to make that format source ect |
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but a historic agreement was signed with the gold mining company for a mine in 2023. |
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the mine has a education cordnator thats moved up here working between lynn lake and 21 (mcfn gets referd to localy as 21 as its at mile 21 on the highway from lynn lake) |
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the lynn lake page could use some help linking the 2 communities pages better as well |
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its a small place but theres allot of positve energy around it these days |
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local communications is all done via facebook so allot of the source info is on one of 2 facebook pages |
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*https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413729978950505 more a communications page for people to ask questions post events |
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posts things for sale |
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*https://www.facebook.com/groups/2929845427138903 << main one the band uses to communicate |
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they have their own flag as well be nice to add it |
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https://scontent-msp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/125557726_10159108912899515_7662318690978588123_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=Ah3abjWQKpYAX9U7mir&_nc_ht=scontent-msp1-1.xx&oh=00_AfA4dZBknVruf1rvIxvKlPON983h1FY_2Mt6DnWrfEftDw&oe=6612A935 |
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[[User:1ajs|1ajs]] ([[User talk:1ajs|talk]]) 15:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
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* Hello {{u|1ajs}}, In looking at the article I see that one of the main issues with [[Marcel Colomb First Nation]] is it reads more like an organization's profile than an encyclopedia article. Almost nothing is cited to any source, much less a reliable source. I think the band is notable based on the few primary sources provided but we are told we should not use primary sources to prove notability. We definitely cannot use Facebook to verify notability. I'll have to start digging for secondary sources but I think the article needs a complete rewrite. One could argue it shouldn't be in encyclopedia mainspace in the state that it is. That does not reflect negatively on the subject but more the articles current state as opposed to what is required by encyclopedia policy. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 15:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC) --edit 15:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
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*:[https://winnipegsun.com/news/provincial/northern-first-nation-expects-boost-from-deal-with-gold-mining-company Northern First Nation expects boost from deal with gold mining company]. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 16:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
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*::Added a statement about the agreement with citation. {{u|Yuchitown}} has also updated the article making it more encyclopedic, other various copy editing. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 17:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
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thank you for your help |
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i dont know what u do for siting stuff when theres no website and everyone uses facebook uphere to communicate this information. |
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[[User:1ajs|1ajs]] ([[User talk:1ajs|talk]]) 17:48, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:We don't include anything that can't be verified through reliable sources. That is one reason a lot of articles stay small. It can be frustrating, to say the least, but it's the policies we have to work with. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 11:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[Lakota mythology]] needs eyes == |
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[[Lakota mythology]] needs eyes on it. I just removed a blog source "Legends of America" that is being used on a lot of articles. From their "About" info on the blog: {{tq|"Hi Y'all, Legends of America is comprised of just the two of us — Dave & Kathy, .... With an entrepreneurial dream, we launched Legends of America in 2003."}} Basically they exist to sell travel stuff and fake Native American trinkets from their two "Mom & Pop" online shops. There are two other expired sources that also seem like they might be blogs (?). I don't know enough about the subject to make improvements, so I'm bringing it here for other editors to examine. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 17:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:Speaking of, the article for "[[Happy hunting ground]]" (which was linked in the Lakota mythology article) should probably be merged to some other article or outright deleted. It's several sentences about a poetic phrase used by settlers which, in the article, is described to possibly be completely invented by settlers. [[User:PersusjCP|PersusjCP]] ([[User talk:PersusjCP|talk]]) 19:26, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::I raised this at [[WP:RSN#LegendsofAmerica.com]]. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Doug Weller|Doug Weller]], once I started clicking on the various links on the LOA website and seeing all the junk they sell, I was shocked it is used on so many articles across the encyclopedia. Thanks for bringing it up on RSN. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 20:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:PersusjCP|PersusjCP]], What are your thoughts on where it could get redirected to or merged into? AfD is fine by me as well. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 01:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Honestly, I have no idea, it is such a broad and unrelated topic I don't know where it would even fit. [[User:PersusjCP|PersusjCP]] ([[User talk:PersusjCP|talk]]) 18:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I was able to find archived versions of the sources. Two more were poor quality blogs, "Living Myths" and "Gods Creations". The one remaining source, "Native American Mythology A to Z" published by Infobase Holdings, Inc., however that citation is only used for two paragraphs. The rest of the article is unsourced. I've added a maintenance tag that more sources are needed. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 21:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/City-recognized tribes in the United States]] == |
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Discussion about deleting of the newly created stub [[City-recognized tribes in the United States]]. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 15:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown |
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:Would it make sense to have a "Delete Sort" category for Indigenous Peoples of the United States related AfDs? I don't know how those d.s. categories are created, or even it if would be a good idea, but it just occurred to me seeing this notification. I went to add delete-sorts using Twinkle, but this one didn't show up. Just a thot.... [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 17:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::I know what some of those words mean. ;) I watch the project's [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Article alerts]], which helps me track deletion nominations. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 22:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown |
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:::{{re|Yuchitown}} If you see such a nomination, please open a new section here directing editors to it--unless there is some reason this is redundant. --[[User:David Tornheim|David Tornheim]] ([[User talk:David Tornheim|talk]]) 01:58, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Right. That is exactly what I did in this section. However, if you want to get tabs on things, just that [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Article alerts]] to your watch list since it covers much more than just articles for deletion. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 16:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown |
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:::::Yes, sorry. When you said, "I know what some of those words mean," I mistakenly thought you were a newer editor than you actually are. I will admit, I don't know what a "delete-sort" is either. LOL. Anyway, thanks for the alerts. I did comment that the one above. If you do figure out what "delete-sort" means, I'm all ears. :) --[[User:David Tornheim|David Tornheim]] ([[User talk:David Tornheim|talk]]) 17:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Hello! What I mean by "delete-sort", is there is a useful script by EnterpriseyBot called delsort (found here [[User:Enterprisey/delsort]] ) which can be installed to your common.js sub-page that makes it really easy to add WikiProject-type categories to AfDs to draw the attention of editors in that area, alerting them that there is an AfD in an area of their interest. It shows up in the "More" menu when you're on a deletion discussion page, when you click you can add multiple relevant categories from the drop-down window that opens. (Sorry if this is not clear, I'm not a technical type person, however it is a useful tool!) [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 18:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[:Minneapolis]] has an [[WP:RFC|RfC]]== |
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<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>'''[[:Minneapolis]]''', which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the '''[[Talk:Minneapolis#RFC_on_first_section_of_Minneapolis|discussion page]]'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. -[[User:SusanLesch|SusanLesch]] ([[User talk:SusanLesch|talk]]) 02:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Exploitative nude photograph of indigenous woman on Robert Peary Page == |
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I have been trying for some time to remove a nude photograph of an Inughuit girl, taken in exploitative conditions, from the page for American polar explorer, Robert Peary. |
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As I have set out at length in the discussion for the Robert Peary page, academic research has established that Peary and his fellow expedition members took a number of pornographic images of young Inughuit women. These women - including the woman in this particular photo - were almost all married. At the time (1891-1909), however, the Americans regarded the Inughuit as 'savages' and therefore fair game for them to use. Indeed, this particular woman had first been taken by Peary as his mistress (often wrongly described as his 'wife' - he was already married to an American) when she was 14. She had two children by him. |
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In her discussion of these photographs, Renée Hulan of St Mary's University, Halifax, Canada, took the decision not to publish any of the images to which she refers. (Renée Hulan, 'Alnayah’s People: Archival Photographs from West Greenland, 1908–1909', Interventions, 25:8, (2023), pp. 1088-1109, DOI: 10.1080/1369801X.2023.2169621 |
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Removing this photograph seems to be an appropriate course of action. These photographs were taken under exploitative conditions - the women were taken on board a ship, far from their homes, for many months. At least one was photographed tied to the mast of the ship. They are pornographic in intent and racist in origin. |
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However, each time I remove this image, ThaddeusSholto reinstates it. He does so without any discussion of the moral issues involved, saying only that I may not remove an image simply because 'I do not like it.' |
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I am certain you will agree that such a image is inappropriate for wikipedia and a shocking exploitation of indigenous peoples. It is exploitative, pornographic and racist. The individual may even have been under 18 when the photograph was taken. Since I am unable, it seems, to remove it, I am hoping that you will assist me to do so. [[User:Jon Rosebank|Jon Rosebank]] ([[User talk:Jon Rosebank|talk]]) 09:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I agree completely. Robert Peary was no hero. [[User:Carlstak|Carlstak]] ([[User talk:Carlstak|talk]]) 12:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:Absolutely no hero and I don't agree with or like how you were engaged or the lack of collaborative engagement. If one wants to stick to policy and make that their argument, that's fine, but they can do so with empathy too. Claiming you called them names when you didn't and threatening with blocks unless you take your position to the article talk page only to refuse to engage you there and lob more accusations of bad faith is appalling and unbecoming. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 12:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm fine with the photo being removed when there is consensus to do so as there clearly is now. That being said, the "warnings" were templates and saying [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJon_Rosebank&diff=1214726680&oldid=1214723316 "wikipedia may be at the mercy of racist pornographers"] is an attack on other editors. [[User:ThaddeusSholto|ThaddeusSholto]] ([[User talk:ThaddeusSholto|talk]]) 14:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I was going to leave a long detailed message on your talk page but it's moot now. I would say that I disagree with your approach and with the premise that the above constituted and attack on you personally or us collectively. If the above editor believed that I do not think they would have taken the time to try and reason with you or even us. I think they saw what they perceived as an issue and rather than meeting someone with empathy that could see the spirit behind why Wikipedia is here they met a stone wall unwilling to discuss anything beyond how wrong they were even to the point of edit warring with them. That's unfortunate but that's my observation. I was going to try and appeal to your better judgement in the matter as an experienced editor with a lot of contributions but, as I said, it's moot. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 15:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::They made the accusation more than once [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jon_Rosebank&diff=prev&oldid=1214339250] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJon_Rosebank&diff=1214756809&oldid=1214749048] so I guess we disagree about whether or not it was intended as an attack. I don't feel that asking them to use the talk page was "stonewalling" nor was asking for consensus or policy. Perhaps we disagree about what stonewalling is, too. [[User:ThaddeusSholto|ThaddeusSholto]] ([[User talk:ThaddeusSholto|talk]]) 16:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::You told them to engage in discussion on the talk page (some might say threatened) and then ignored them and refused to engage them until today. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 16:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I didn't ignore them, I didn't see the discussion. I didn't threaten them no matter how many times you claim I did. [[User:ThaddeusSholto|ThaddeusSholto]] ([[User talk:ThaddeusSholto|talk]]) 16:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::And I will add I can see how someone that doesn't interact with this community and doesn't know our policies would see keeping the picture as consent or even agreement with it, especially when that person uses something as weird as [[WP:CENSOR]] as the basis for their willingness to edit war over it's inclusion. Do I agree with that assertion? No, else I wouldn't be here discussing it with you. But I also question who should be the experienced editor in that situation? A slightly softer tone and an attempt at empathy would go a long way. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 16:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I think that advice goes both ways. I don't feel like you have been [[WP:AGF]] here at all. You ask questions and then immediately answer them for me and chastise me for things I didn't do (threaten and ignore editors.) I have given my reasons here and I am not arguing to retain the image so [[WP:STICK|you can drop the stick]] now. [[User:ThaddeusSholto|ThaddeusSholto]] ([[User talk:ThaddeusSholto|talk]]) 16:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I have left a comment on the [[Robert Peary]] talk page explaining why I think it should be removed. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 15:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::It saddens me to see how badly Jon Rosebank was treated. {{u|ThaddeusSholto}}, I hope you will consider reviewing [[WP:NOTVANDALISM]] as I don't think your use of templated warnings was in line with Wikipedia community norms. |
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::As for the image in question, I've nominated the file for deletion on Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2024/03/27#File:Mother_of_the_seals.jpg [[User:Clayoquot|Clayoquot]] ([[User_talk:Clayoquot|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Clayoquot|contribs]]) 04:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Renaming discussion for Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States == |
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There is a renaming discussion for [[:Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States]] to match it with the main article, [[List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes]]. [[User:Bohemian Baltimore|Bohemian Baltimore]] ([[User talk:Bohemian Baltimore|talk]]) 03:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[Darcie Little Badger]] == |
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Is the most recent substantive edit ok?[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darcie_Little_Badger&action=history] [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 12:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:I re-added the portion about self-identification. I didn't see much else that made a huge difference in the article. They can go to the article talk page to discuss the part I re-added if they so wish to contest it's inclusion. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 14:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Just reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darcie_Little_Badger&diff=1217999454&oldid=1217893072 this edit]. Sisyphus time. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 04:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::: {{u|SouthernNights}} has distorted BLP policy to protect the article in support of the sockpuppets. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 12:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::It's very simple: The edits on Darcie Little Badger's article violated [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]] by making negative claims about the article's subject not backed up by reliable sources. BLP requires a higher threshold for stuff like this than non-biography articles and these recent edits absolutely crossed that line. As for sockpuppets, I don't know what you mean about that and I sincerely hope you're not accusing me of being one or working with sockpuppets (my track record as an editor and admin here should speak for itself). [[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 13:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::How is it a negative? Show me how stating the obvious, that someone self-identifies, is a negative. Because you see it as a negative it must be a negative, right? Darcie Little Badger claims to be Lipan Apache but is not claimed as a member of a recognized sovereign Lipan Apache nation, meaning they have went through a rigorous process of proving they are directly connected to that Indigenous people here at the time of pre-colonial and colonial contact. They are a member of a cultural heritage group that is not recognized and therefore has not proven a direct link. By stating they self-identify Wikipedia is offering context. It is not a negative. We are not saying they do not descend from the [[Lipan Apache]], only there is no source to verify this link. |
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:::::I never said you are working with Sockpuppets. It wouldn't make much sense to tag you if I thought that. However, your distortion of BLP policy supports their position and their disruptive editing. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 13:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::{{tq|"Saying a Native American self-identifies is a major BLP issue without reliable citations"}} Are you saying Darcie is Native American and you have proof of this? --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 13:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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I'm not going to go down an endless debate hole on all this. Per BLP, potentially negative info must be reliably sourced. It's very simple, so unless you have a reliable source specifically saying Darcie Little Badger self-identifies as Native, you can't add it to the article. You didn't provide that so the edits are not allowed per BLP.--[[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 14:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Self-identification]] Reliable sources repeating or making the claim is not enough for the claim to be substantiated in Wikivoice. Does Naming Convention policy mean nothing? Are you refusing to show how self-identification is a negative claim? --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 14:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::You, from an administrative position, made claims in your edit summary and your refusing to explain your arbitrary decisions adequately quite frankly is unbecoming of an administrator in this instance. You are accountable to the editing community and should go out of your way to clarify your statements and decisions not shut down concerned editors with statements like {{tq|"I'm not going to go down an endless debate hole on all this."}}. It doesn't have to be endless but it has to make sense. I admire and look up to the admin corps and some of my closest wiki-friends are administrators or former admins. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 14:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, saying someone self-identifies as Native can be a negative claim if that is not what they claim and, as in Little Badger's article, there are plenty of reliable sources stating that she is Native and a member of the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas. Before making my decision on the BLP issue, I went through the edit history of the tribe's article. In my opinion, there is POV pushing happening to that article with regards to whether or not the tribe is state recognized. In particular, it appears citations are being cherry-picked to show the tribe is not state recognized when reliable citations that state the opposite such as the one from the University of Cincinnati Law Review are ignored or downplayed. I'm still trying to determine what all is going on with the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas article. However, Little Badger's article is an easier determination because it is covered by BLP and as such must meet those standards. My decision was neither arbitrary or unbecoming. Wikipedia takes very seriously issues related to BLP and all editors are expected to follow these standards. [[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 15:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::: We are pushing the neutral POV here, Southern. Other admins have looked into this and concluded that fact. As a wikiproject many members that have come and gone, very many of them I wish were still present. have worked diligently to build consensus around these topics through thoughtful discourse, relentless research of sources and dedication to accuracy. You pride yourself on your record which is understandable. You obtained that record through much the same way policies, guidelines and consensus were formed around these topics, very hard work. We do not have to cite a source that Darcie self-identifies as Native American because Darcie claims to be Native American, as you pointed out, in reliable sources. That, by definition, is self (Darci) identification (identifies). The proof is on those removing the self-identification to only state Native American so emphatically to prove status. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 15:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Saying someone identifies as being Native American is a neutral statement based on available citations (an individual making public statements that they are Native American or belong to Foo Tribe). That is all that can be proven. To make further claims would require concrete support coming from authoritative sources outside of that individual or, in the case, their organization. Native American tribe are legally defined entities throughout U.S. federal law. There's no debate that this individual is a member of the [[Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas]]. To say that organization is a Native American tribe would require some serious secondary, published citations that have not yet been produced. Only the State of Texas can state what its state-recognized tribes are; and state-recognized tribes themselves are a surprisingly nebulous, ill-defined concept (the primary US federal law that mentions them is the 1990 Indian Arts and Crafts Act, which is currently under review for amending). Instead expending so much energy trying to [[WP:SYNTH]], [[WP:OR]], and [[WP:PROMO]] on Wikipedia, the LATT-affiliated individuals would be better served working IRL with their state legislators to secure recognition, since [https://legiscan.com/TX/bill/SB231/2023 previous bills for formal state recognition] have died in committee. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 15:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Proposed move == |
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Just proposed moving [[Kewa Pueblo, New Mexico]] to [[Santo Domingo Pueblo, New Mexico]]. Discussion at [[Talk:Kewa Pueblo, New Mexico#Requested move 9 April 2024]]. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 15:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Renaming discussion for Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States == |
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There is a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_April_7#Category:Unrecognized_tribes_in_the_United_States renaming discussion] for [[:Category:Unrecognized tribes in the United States]] to match it with the main article, [[List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes]]. [[User:Bohemian Baltimore|Bohemian Baltimore]] ([[User talk:Bohemian Baltimore|talk]]) 11:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Article about US ethnic cleansing in general == |
== Article about US ethnic cleansing in general == |
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:::@[[User:Bohemian Baltimore|Bohemian Baltimore]], I had the same thought just this morning. [[Mohawk skywalkers]] would make an <u>excellent</u> DYK. It would be of interest to many readers, and would call attention to this important Indigenous history. Please let me know what I can do to help improve the article. One thought I had was to create a gallery of images. [[Lewis Hine]], who shot the 1928 photo of the workers sitting high in the sky on the iron I-beam, did a series of photos of the skywalkers, the Smithsonian owns these photos. I've been trying to access that archive of images online (so far, not successful, but I'm persistant ;-). Thank you again for creating it! [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 00:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC) |
:::@[[User:Bohemian Baltimore|Bohemian Baltimore]], I had the same thought just this morning. [[Mohawk skywalkers]] would make an <u>excellent</u> DYK. It would be of interest to many readers, and would call attention to this important Indigenous history. Please let me know what I can do to help improve the article. One thought I had was to create a gallery of images. [[Lewis Hine]], who shot the 1928 photo of the workers sitting high in the sky on the iron I-beam, did a series of photos of the skywalkers, the Smithsonian owns these photos. I've been trying to access that archive of images online (so far, not successful, but I'm persistant ;-). Thank you again for creating it! [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 00:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I'll also look for photos and source material from other regions where the skywalkers worked. I did not know it was so widespread, thought it was just Canada & New York. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 00:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC) |
::::I'll also look for photos and source material from other regions where the skywalkers worked. I did not know it was so widespread, thought it was just Canada & New York. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 00:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] I think it may be too late to nominate the article, but I'm not super familiar with how the process works. Sorry. I've been a bit hectic lately. I think the only way we could nominate now would be to get the article to GA or expand 5x? [[User:Bohemian Baltimore|Bohemian Baltimore]] ([[User talk:Bohemian Baltimore|talk]]) 01:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::No worries, {{u|Bohemian Baltimore}} there will be other opportunities to collaborate. I've done a few DYKs but found the process labyrinthian and somewhat confusing. But am willing to give it a try again. Years ago I was hoping to bring [[Pueblo Pottery]] to GA, but again found the process/procedure intimidating so I gave up. On another note, I have been meaning to thank you for all the hard work you've done on categorization, and of course your many article creations. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 01:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Is this edit ok? == |
== Is this edit ok? == |
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::Not really something that most readers will even notice. Most editors that are interested in indigenous topics will capitalize the word anyways simply based on the knowledge they have of the topic. ... We'll only get a few here and there that will consider it racist not realizing it's just a grammatical preference. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 02:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
::Not really something that most readers will even notice. Most editors that are interested in indigenous topics will capitalize the word anyways simply based on the knowledge they have of the topic. ... We'll only get a few here and there that will consider it racist not realizing it's just a grammatical preference. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 02:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::There seems to be a lot of retaliation against Native topics lately and the guidelines meant to help newbies in the area write better articles. [[User:Oncamera|<span style="color:#e0e0e0; font-family:georgia; background:#785673; letter-spacing: 1px;"> oncamera </span>]] <sub>[[User_Talk:Oncamera|<i style="color:#ad0076; font-family:georgia">(talk page)</i>]]</sub> 03:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
:::There seems to be a lot of retaliation against Native topics lately and the guidelines meant to help newbies in the area write better articles. [[User:Oncamera|<span style="color:#e0e0e0; font-family:georgia; background:#785673; letter-spacing: 1px;"> oncamera </span>]] <sub>[[User_Talk:Oncamera|<i style="color:#ad0076; font-family:georgia">(talk page)</i>]]</sub> 03:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: I will be capitalizing no matter what. They can block me. That discussion was full of uncivil mocking of fellow editors by those that shouldn't ever touch an article about Indigenous topics let alone be commenting about it as shown in recent comments made and pointed out. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 11:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Agreed. The discussion at [[Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples]] is appalling (and folks have ''lots'' of free time on their hands!). I keep peeking over about [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics]] and wonder how they handle the need for a base level of familiarity with the subject. Of course we aren't saying "we know best, everyone should trust us" a la [[WP:EXPERTISE]]; we all consistently provide citations. But we have the challenge that the broader public has limited knowledge of Indigenous topics coupled with a lack of desire to learn more or listen to Indigenous voices (due to centuries of structural prejudice in Western societies). On physics subjects, I'd imagine there's an expectation that you've at least studied it on the college level (or a heroic autodidact). [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 13:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Looks like WP has hit a new low. Sigh.... [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 14:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Same with medical articles, of course we have MEDRS for that. Wish we had INDRS or something like it which clearly defined what is a good reliable source for Native American or Indigenous identity and how best to define/label. We don't have that and it has caused a major rift, imo, within the Wikipedia editing community and between Wikipedia and Indigenous communities. The last few discussions have been appalling. At least with the off-wiki discussions, I finally read them, I can say the criticism, though some of it misguided, is at least coming from a place of trying to, in their minds, respect a person Indigenous identity. I can't say that about some of the discussions on wiki that I've been a part of or watched recently. It is absolutely a new low and disheartening that I am supposed to work with these people that don't respect for other humans. Wikipedia does have rules but those rules are not supposed to hurt the encyclopedia and this clearly does hurt the effectiveness of Wikipedia to relate to its readers. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 14:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::@[[User:ARoseWolf|ARoseWolf]], see message below. Please help us to include more Indigenous news sources from Alaska! [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 14:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I'll add that I disagree with Moxy. I think this is a serious issue and it will become more serious when we start seeing good faith edits reverted where Indigenous is capitalized in articles. This isn't an effort to remove errant language from a guideline or essay. This an effort to force a particular POV on editors who know better by those that simply don't care about the cause and effects of their decisions. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 14:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::It's also being removed from [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters]]. I would suggest someone create a RFC at the MOS or WP:INDIGENOUS with the style guides so consensus can be established once and for all. [[User:Oncamera|<span style="color:#e0e0e0; font-family:georgia; background:#785673; letter-spacing: 1px;"> oncamera </span>]] <sub>[[User_Talk:Oncamera|<i style="color:#ad0076; font-family:georgia">(talk page)</i>]]</sub> 17:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::The United Nations updated their [https://www.un.org/dgacm/en/content/editorial-manual/Capitalization#I Editorial Manual] to include that {{tq|"Indigenous should be capitalized when referring to cultures, communities, lands, languages, etc., of Indigenous Peoples, e.g.: Indigenous culture in Ecuador, Indigenous languages are dying out. If referring to flora or fauna, lower case should be used."}} --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 17:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Hopefully when it's closed who ever does it we'll see the disconnect between the random links vs the style guides. Basically we have someone saying look at the Chicago manual style or United Nation they doesn't capitalize in everyday usage....... Yeah both places have a style guides that say you should. Odd that some simply reject academic protocols like....{{cite web | title=Capitalization | website=University of Waterloo | date=February 24, 2016 | url=https://uwaterloo.ca/brand/downloads-and-resources/university-waterloo-writing-style-guide/capitalization#citizenship | access-date=June 13, 2024}}<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 21:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::It's more than odd, it's verging on disruptive. Probably schoolmarmish types nursing a pet peeve. [[User:Carlstak|Carlstak]] ([[User talk:Carlstak|talk]]) 00:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::The rejection of academic publications is one reason we have a problem with [[Wikipedia:Expert retention]]. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User:Moxy|Moxy]]</span>🍁 01:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[List of Indigenous newspapers in North America]] == |
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Here's some good news! Over the past week or so, @[[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] and I have been crafting a new list article [[List of Indigenous newspapers in North America]] that will be helpful in providing sources from the various Tribes/Nations. It also includes tribal newsletters. It's not quite "finished" and may never be, however it is comprehensive enough that I feel comfortable posting this here (a link is also on the IPNA main page). |
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Please feel free to continue to improve and expand it. Within the next few days I hope to create a [[List of Indigenous magazines and academic journals in North America]]. It would also be excellent to have a [[List of Indigenous Media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America]]. |
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Thank you in advance for helping out with this project! |
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BTW, it will be interesting to see whether <big>Indigenous is capitalized</big> or <small>whether it is not</small> in these scores of sources. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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OK, I have just created two userspace drafts [[User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous magazines and academic journals in North America]] and [[User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America]]. (The titles of which of course can change if these aren't quite right). Please contribute to these drafts! [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 15:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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: I used to read the [https://www.juneauempire.com/ Juneau Empire]. I just scanned it for articles and they capitalize Indigenous (i.e. Indigenous leader, man, woman, people). Not exactly an Indigenous owned newspaper but one that recognizes the importance of Alaska Native's to Alaska, both current and past. Then there is [https://alaska-native-news.com/ Alaska Native News]. News for Alaska Native's which you already have listed but is really good source. [https://www.southcentralfoundation.com/ Southcentral Foundation] does a free publication of Native news in and around Anchorage. I'll continue to look for more media sources. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 16:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::The Tlingit & HaIda Central Council releases a quarterly newsletter titled [https://www.ccthita.org/info/newsletters/index.html ''Tribal News'']. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 16:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks! I've added ''Tribal News'' and ''Anchorage Native News'' to the list article. Will look into the other two you mention. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 19:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I've added some to the [[User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America]]. I added the National Film Board because while they are not predominately by or targeting Indigenous peoples there are quite a few works by them that apply. |
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::::How about things like [[Up Here (magazine)]] or [[News/North]]? The first is a glossy magazine that is not really aimed at Indigenous peoples but does sometimes contain articles by Indigenous peoples. By the way there is the [http://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/MinorityMedia/collections/show/3 Canadian Indigenous Media Index]. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] (solidly non-human), [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Huliva]] 18:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Thank you for these contributions and for pointing to the Canadian Indigenous Media Index. Yes to [[Up Here (magazine)|Up Here]] and [[News/North]]. All contributions and improvements are welcome! [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 18:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Just realised that it might be best to keep the lists to individual countries otherwise it could get very long. See [[List of sovereign states and dependent territories in North America]]. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] (solidly non-human), [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Huliva]] 18:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I see what you mean. Since I live in the US, I'll try to remain focused on that country. I'm glad you brought this up as it crossed my mind when working on the [[List of Indigenous newspapers in North America]] and wondered if it should be broken up into US and Canada and Mexico; however, you have called attention to the fact that the matter is larger than that. [[User:Netherzone|Netherzone]] ([[User talk:Netherzone|talk]]) 20:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Requested move at [[Brulé]] == |
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Requesting move of [[Brulé]] to [[Sicangu]] at [[Talk:Brulé#Requested_move_14_June_2024]]. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 15:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Should have just moved it, it's not controversial [[User:Oncamera|<span style="color:#e0e0e0; font-family:georgia; background:#785673; letter-spacing: 1px;"> oncamera </span>]] <sub>[[User_Talk:Oncamera|<i style="color:#ad0076; font-family:georgia">(talk page)</i>]]</sub> 18:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::Probably, however, so many folks jump in and unilaterally make moves (see below), that I didn't want to do the same. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 21:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Move discussion at [[Atakapa]] == |
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See: [[Talk:Atakapa#Requested_move_17_June_2024]] [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 21:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown |
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== Residential schools at RSN (again!) == |
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There is a thread at RSN [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#The Catholic Pope and the Canadian House of Commons] that may be of interest to editors here. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 01:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== RfC on Dorchester Review at RSN == |
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There is currently an RfC at RSN on the reliability of the [[The Dorchester Review]]. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 23:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Related discussion at WP:NORN == |
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There is now a discussion at [[WP:NORN]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#2021_Canadian_church_burnings here] about the related article [[2021 Canadian church burnings]] [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 18:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Netflix’s Ancient Apocalypse scraps US filming plans after outcry from Native American Groups == |
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[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/01/netflix-ancient-apocalypse-canceled?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other] [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 20:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== I had no idea that the "kill the Indian, save the man" ideology still exists == |
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[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/jun/24/apache-students-school-reservation They took part in Apache ceremonies. Their schools expelled them for satanic activities] [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 14:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:Yes, unfortunately, although it's surprising that a Lutheran school did this. [[User:Yuchitown|Yuchitown]] ([[User talk:Yuchitown|talk]]) 14:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:It is sad that, even today, it continues. The genocide of cultural beliefs and practices thrives on. And like cowards they refuse to respond. What are they afraid of? If this is something you believe with such passion as to expel children from school over then surely you could answer some questions about it and explain your position while accepting criticism for it. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 14:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Requested move of {{noredirect|Apache Indian}}== |
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[[File:Information.svg|40px|left]] |
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An editor has requested that {{la|Apache Indian}} be moved to another page, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You  are invited to participate in [[Talk:Apache Indian|the move discussion]].<!-- from Template:RM notice--> |
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-- [[Special:Contributions/64.229.90.32|64.229.90.32]] ([[User talk:64.229.90.32|talk]]) 05:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC) |
![]() | This is a WikiProject, an area for focused collaboration among Wikipedians. New participants are welcome; please feel free to participate!
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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America and anything related to its purposes and tasks. |
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Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26Auto-archiving period: 90 days ![]() |
![]() | Indigenous peoples of North America NA‑class | ||||||
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IMO, these are separate topics. For the former I edited the existing template including creating more groups. For the latter I just did a copy and paste onto a new template thus it needs much additional work. --Denise B-K (talk)
I am having trouble finding any single article generally covering American ethnic cleansing/genocide/forced displacement etc. of Native Americans, or even covering it west of the Mississippi, or after 1847. Indian removal (and the associated Indian Removal Act) covers 1830-1847 east of the Mississippi, and various articles e.g. California genocide cover specific incidents later/west of the Mississippi, but there doesn't seem to be any unified article about such policies throughout American (USian) history, or even specifically about such policies after Indian removal (the Eastern US policy) ended in 1847. Aspects of it are also touched on in various articles, e.g. Manifest destiny, Native Americans in the US, History of the US, etc. The closest article I can find is Native American genocide in the United States but, perhaps as a necessary result of its title, it seems to be primarily about whether such policies can be deemed a genocide, although it does make an attempt at presenting the history and the events involved, albeit far from comprehensively. Am I incorrect, and if so, can someone point me to the right article? And if I am not mistaken, do other people in this WikiProject also feel this topic deserves a general overview article (and if so, under what name)? Brusquedandelion (talk) 03:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm an editor working on the Ferron article and the question has emerged as to how to treat her Métis identification. She was tagged in the category of First Nations musicians. I guess I am looking for some help in evaluating sources. I see: personal statement identifying as Métis, a quote from several years ago that her immediate family are enrolled (and that she was enrolling). I don't see a way to search for citizenship documentation online. She is mentioned on Windspeaker.com as Métis, was included in the National Music Centre exhibit on Indigenous musicians and recently performed at Talking Stick Festival. I am not First Nations so I was wondering if there's a sense of what sources would carry more weight on this issue. Thanks! Justinkrivers (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ferron discovered later in her life that she had Métis ancestry.is sourced to a blogspot blog, not a reliable source. Netherzone (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an infobox specifically for federally recognized tribes in the US? I know the First Nations infobox exists. I see a mix of {infobox ethnic group}, {infobox settlement}, and {infobox country}. I stick to {infobox settlement} or {infobox country} since the ethnic group one I usually keep for articles about the ethnic groups, rather than the tribal governments/entities. PersusjCP (talk) 04:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"create more articles for Alaska Native tribes and villages"This, too, is what I want to focus more on. It is a subject severely in need of support. --ARoseWolf 16:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Marilou Awiakta's daughter has radically altered her mother's article, including removing sources showing her mother isn't enrolled in a Cherokee tribe. The article now looks like an advertisement. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed this article got created recently, and I figured the people here might want to give it a look/add things. It's pretty bare-bones right now.PersusjCP (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unsure what the distinction is between Category:People of the wars between the United States and Native Americans and Category:People of the American Indian Wars. Unless I am mistaken, couldn't these two categories be merged? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Conversation at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_April_30#Category:First_Nations_drawing_artists. Sigh. Yuchitown (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
I have noticed that pages and categories for the Taíno are often listed as "Native American". An example would be that Category:Taíno leaders is a subcategory of Category:Native American leaders. Maekiaphan Phillips, a Taíno revivalist "chief" in the Virgin Islands, is classified under several "Native American" categories. I'm skeptical that Taíno people should be listed as Native Americans for multiple reasons, not least of which their pre-1924 extinction as a tribe. Indigenous-related articles for the Taíno in Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, the Chamorro and Carolinian peoples in Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands, Samoans, etc all pose the question: do we need to create more parent categories for peoples within the US who are Indigenous but aren't necessarily Native American? Are Native Hawaiians Native Americans, legally speaking? My impression of Alaska Natives is that some are considered Native Americans, but others are not. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't want to retread the lengthy conversations at Talk:Taíno, but seeing how Chamorro and Native Hawaiians are categorized under Category:Indigenous peoples in the United States, I'd say problem solved. It's clear that "Native American" isn't exactly defined as "Indigenous peoples of what is now the United States" but rather "Indigenous peoples of the contiguous United States." Of course, the Caribbean is part of North America and part of this WikiProject. Back to the original question, Category:Taíno leaders can go under Category:Indigenous leaders of the Americas (so I put it under that). There's also Category:Caciques, but determining which Indigenous leaders are Caciques or not seems arbitrary, so that should probably be deleted. Yuchitown (talk) 18:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
A proposal – that may be of interest to this WikiProject – was recently opened to change the name of Category: Native Americans' rights activiststoCategory:Activists for Native American rights. The discussion can be found here: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 8.
Netherzone (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lillie Rosa Minoka Hill is described in her article as a Native American and as a person of Mohawk descent. She was not a citizen of any tribe. The article claims her biological mother was Mohawk but that there's no proof of her Mohawk heritage. Her husband was Oneida and she was an honorary member of the Oneida Nation, but was never a citizen. Media have inaccurately claimed she wasn't allowed to be an Oneida Nation citizen due to blood quantum laws. The Oneida Nation does have a blood quantum of one-quarter, but that seems irrelevant as her "blood quantum" was zero. She never even claimed to be an Oneida descendant. I'm not sure describing her as the "second Native American female doctor" is suitable. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"I think it's very appropriate to say she claimed to be Mohawk or identified as Mohawk"and
I think it is also appropriate to include "2nd Native American medically-trained physician" if the sources say that.--ARoseWolf 16:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could this conversation move to Reddit or somewhere else? WP:NOTAFORUM. This conversation has long moved beyond the article, which should have taken place on that talk page (however the article's issues are being resolved). Endlessly rehashing opinions is not helpful. For the new folks, please read any of the existing discussions all over this talk page, its archives, and innumerable other Native article talk pages. Yuchitown (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
"Indigenous ancestry can always be listed on an article if substantiated"We have never disputed that on Wikipedia or in this Wiki-project. --ARoseWolf 16:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have an open question about the 2nd and 3rd sentence of the Lillie Rosa Minoka Hill article about the wording her of status as a non-citizen and that she was told she was a Mohawk at Talk:Lillie_Rosa_Minoka_Hill#Mohawk. If you are interested, would you please weigh-in within a week with your opinion? Thanks so much!–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This Project has been mentioned in a local news article.. (which can be accessed more easily here). --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an example, the article for Gabrielle Tayac has her nationality listed in the infobox as "Piscataway Indian Nation". Shouldn't the nationality be listed as American? And to clarify further, for articles that list people as "citizens" of a state-recognized tribe, shouldn't "member" be used instead of "citizen"? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Starting this July, we will see a new contest on the scene - the Developing Countries WikiContest (WP:DCWC)! Think of it as a WikiCup but only for articles and media on developing countries.
Competitors may submit GAs, GTs, FAs, FTs, FLs, FPs, and DYK and ITN entries from/on developing countries to gain points and proceed to further rounds. Points are also awarded to those who review GAs, FAs and FLs.
Greenland is listed as a developing country for the purposes of this contest, so articles related to the Greenlandic Inuit, their history, culture, and anthropology, as well as notable individuals, are eligible to be submitted for points. I encourage everyone here to sign up and compete with editors from around the world to create high-quality content!
Append your name to the DCWC signup page today!
Best wishes, Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (talk to me!/my edits) 16:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are a number of federally recognized tribes or First Nations - such as Colorado River Indian Tribes, Assiniboine and Sioux Tribes, Six Nations of the Grand River, Tlingit & Haida, etc. - that include citizens of multiple tribal heritages. Is a Colorado River Indian Tribes citizen of Navajo heritage to be described as a Navajo person or as a person of Navajo descent? Would it be overcategorization to tease these things out, along the lines of Catgory:Mohawk people of the Six NationsorCategory:Six Nations people of Mohawk descent? That I can see, the status quo is that people like Martin Sensmeier (Tlingit enrolled with Tlingit & Haida) is categorized under both Category:Tlingit people and Category:Tlingit & Haida Indian Tribes people, which is itself currently a subcat of the cat for Tlingit people. EDIT - on closer examination, Six Nations people can be organized by band: Bearfoot Onondaga, Upper Mohawk, Upper Cayuga, Delaware First Nation, etc. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 07:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know it is a bit tricky when it comes to state-recognized tribes, but currently Wikipedia has an article for the Lumbee and the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina, as well as categories for Lumbee people, Lumbee descent, and self-identified Lumbee descent. There is a category for Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina, but not for Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina people. Any clarity here? Presumably there are people who identify as Lumbee without being a member of the state-recognized tribe. Don't know how that could be verified though, or if it would need to be. Help? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is about the heritage/citizenship stuff about. See this Tumblr post[3]. It mentions the Lillie Rosa Minoka Hill discussion and the Project mentioned offwiki one. It says "Some of the tribes I have spoken to are taking legal action against these editors. Any groups affected by their policies should also reach out to the news to make knowledge of this more widespread." Doug Weller talk 12:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I keep running into lengthy, often undercited, lists of subtribes/bands in Native ethnic groups articles (right now, I'm looking at Cheyenne#History#Historical Cheyenne bands). My inclination is to move them to the bottom of the page. There's a tendency for these articles flow chronologically, but it seems they should be organized more by what information a reader (typically a young student, I'd imagine) would actually want to know. Has anyone else dealt with this situation? Yuchitown (talk) 13:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion at Talk:Settler colonialism in Canada#Proposed merge of Persecution of First Nations into Settler colonialism in Canada to merge Persecution of First Nations into Settler colonialism in Canada which may be of interest. PersusjCP (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be good to have better, clearer guidelines - hopefully in one place that can be linked to from citizenship, etc.:
I can start a draft for review. Is there anyone interested in helping identify what should be included and work on it? Any thoughts?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based upon a definition of Native American or American Indian with reliable sources and meets with consensus:
It seems that the definitions of Self-identified Native American needs to be updated a bit to state how someone can be of Native American heritage, but not be a member or citizen of a tribe or nation. The definition of Native American by the DOJ allows that there are different definition of Native American or American Indian. Perhaps a bit more work on this section.
I have another suggestion to review articles where someone is considered "self-identifying" that might be like Lily Gladstone.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I started Draft:Native American definition. I think this will be easier, but already have two topics of conversation.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This academic journal article mentions several members of WP:IPNA. Wikipedia’s Indian problem: settler colonial erasure of native American knowledge and history on the world’s largest encyclopedia - published yesterday in the journal, Settler Colonial Studies, published by Taylor & Francis. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2201473X.2024.2358697?src=exp-la – if that link doesn't work try this one: – https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2201473X.2024.2358697
Note that the footnotes on the T&S website are buggy, you may have to copy and paste the urls into a browser to see the diffs in the footnotes. Netherzone (talk) 02:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much for sharing "Wikipedia’s Indian problem: settler colonial erasure of Native American knowledge and history on the world’s largest encyclopedia", Netherzone! I'm glad User:Indigenous girl and User:CorbieVreccan's stories are preserved in a scholarly journal, that we lost two brilliant editors due to non-Native fragility. Kyle Keeler provided excellent analysis.
“ | I find that erasure manifests in three compounding ways: First is Erasure by Omission: Many of Wikipedia's American history pages leave out Native histories and replace them with colonial narratives. The second is Refusal as Erasure: settler nationalists refuse to add scholarship that resists colonial histories. This strategy creates a hostile environment for Native and allied editors. Many leave Wikipedia as a result, which leads to the final step, Editor Removal as Erasure: if Indigenous and allied editors do not leave on their own accord, settler nationalists turn content disputes into conduct disputes, arguing Native and allied editors are activists there to distort history. Native and allied editors are removed from the project, and when they are no longer present to resist erasure and replacement, settler nationalists claim digital space more easily by replacing Native histories with colonial ones. Erasure of knowledge gives way to literal erasure and replacement. | ” |
This was a heart-breaking loss to the community, and continues to play out less dramatically on an ongoing basis. Yuchitown (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the interested: User:Tamzin/Public_response_to_the_editors_of_Settler_Colonial_Studies. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-06-08/Opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have been using "Native American" because that is the label used in Native American and Native Americans in the United States - the foundational disambiguation page and article about indigenous people of the United States.
Is it better, or more proper, to say "American Indian" or "Indigenous American"? It seemed to make more sense to ask here before asking for a move on the talk pages.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion going on at Genocide of Indigenous peoples to change the name of the article to Genocide of indigenous peoples (lower-caseindigenous.) The discussion can be found here: Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples#Requested move 25 May 2024. Netherzone (talk) 15:01, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horace Pierite, Jr., if anyone has any thoughts on this matter. Yuchitown (talk) 16:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Archaeology#"was"_vs_"is"_for_individual_ancient_human_skeletons for a discussion regarding whether Wikipedia articles about individual human remains (like skeletons and mummies, including those of Native Americans) should be described in the past or present tense. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipediocracy has a thread "State-recognized tribes and the Indigenous peoples of North America WikiProject" about this WikiProject and editors are mentioned in there, since that's the apparent standard to share these links on this talkpage. oncamera (talk page) 04:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my word, no one has ever claimed that Joy Harjo is not Native American. But glad that folks have a place to vent that isn't here. Yuchitown (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Patricia Marroquin Norby about how self-identification and sources should be used that might be of interest to editors. oncamera (talk page) 17:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's discussion to remove tribal nations from MOS:CITIZENatWikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Native American/First Nations citizenship. oncamera (talk page) 19:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have a question at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Regina M. Anderson about whether ethnic or race information should be in categories if it's minor. In reading MOS:Ethnicity, ethnic background or race should only be in an article if it is part of a person's notability and of defining importance.
In Anderson's case, the only thing that is relevant to her education, career, and participation in the Harlem Renaissance is that she has African heritage. There's only some specific information about her African heritage. And, it is not relevant that she has partial Jewish, Swedish, Native American, etc. heritage. Please comment there if interested.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IsCategory:People of Native American descent being used properly? Per Wikipedia:Categorizing articles about people#Defining:
Biographical articles should be categorized by defining characteristics. As a rule of thumb for main biographies this includes the reason(s) for the person's notability; i.e., the characteristics the person is best known for. The principle of "defining characteristics" applies to categorizing people, as it does to any other categorization. As the guideline on categorization says:
The defining characteristics of an article's topic are central to categorizing the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to[1] in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place.
- For example, a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless their legal career was notable in its own right or relevant to their acting career. Many people had assorted jobs before taking the one that made them notable; those other jobs should not be categorized. Similarly, celebrities commercializing a fragrance should not be in the perfumers category; not everything a celebrity does after becoming famous warrants categorization.
I see people put into descent categories where their claims are not why they are notable. An example is Category:People of Sioux descent, there are two articles, one is Linus Woods, who is an artist where his Native culture plays a crucial part to his notability, the second is Jas Mann, whose claims of being Native seem to have no notability to his musical career. I'm not saying the claims have to removed from the article, but instead, why is he in that category when it's not a WP:Defining feature? oncamera (talk page) 02:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
References
I've started an article on the Mohawk skywalkers. It needs work, but I was surprised that there wasn't anything on Wikimedia Commons. Photos would be a nice addition, if any can be found in the public domain. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:00, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[11]. Doug Weller talk 19:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently the establish consensus has been overturned [12]. Sure to be a concise and calm discussion. Yuchitown (talk) 21:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Indigenous should be capitalized when referring to cultures, communities, lands, languages, etc., of Indigenous Peoples, e.g.: Indigenous culture in Ecuador, Indigenous languages are dying out. If referring to flora or fauna, lower case should be used."--ARoseWolf 17:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's some good news! Over the past week or so, @Yuchitown and I have been crafting a new list article List of Indigenous newspapers in North America that will be helpful in providing sources from the various Tribes/Nations. It also includes tribal newsletters. It's not quite "finished" and may never be, however it is comprehensive enough that I feel comfortable posting this here (a link is also on the IPNA main page).
Please feel free to continue to improve and expand it. Within the next few days I hope to create a List of Indigenous magazines and academic journals in North America. It would also be excellent to have a List of Indigenous Media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America.
Thank you in advance for helping out with this project!
BTW, it will be interesting to see whether Indigenous is capitalizedorwhether it is not in these scores of sources. Netherzone (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have just created two userspace drafts User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous magazines and academic journals in North America and User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America. (The titles of which of course can change if these aren't quite right). Please contribute to these drafts! Netherzone (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Requesting move of BrulétoSicanguatTalk:Brulé#Requested_move_14_June_2024. Yuchitown (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See: Talk:Atakapa#Requested_move_17_June_2024 Yuchitown (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
There is a thread at RSN Catholic Pope and the Canadian House of Commons that may be of interest to editors here. Elinruby (talk) 01:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is currently an RfC at RSN on the reliability of the The Dorchester Review. Elinruby (talk) 23:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is now a discussion at WP:NORN here about the related article 2021 Canadian church burnings Elinruby (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[13] Doug Weller talk 20:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They took part in Apache ceremonies. Their schools expelled them for satanic activities Doug Weller talk 14:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An editor has requested that Apache Indian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) be moved to another page, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You are invited to participate in the move discussion. -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 05:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]