{{atop|Last comment 2 months ago. No consensus 1-1. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 17:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)}}
{{VA link|Go (game)}} is VA4 and has been around for over two millennia, and the History of Games section is way too sports-based. The only other board game history article we have listed currently is {{VA link|History of chess}}, and I think that there is room for a second one.
{{VA link|Go (game)}} is VA4 and has been around for over two millennia, and the History of Games section is way too sports-based. The only other board game history article we have listed currently is {{VA link|History of chess}}, and I think that there is room for a second one.
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*:{{VA link|History of mancala}} does not exist as an article. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 01:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
*:{{VA link|History of mancala}} does not exist as an article. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 01:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
*I'm not convinced that "history of [recreational item]" is a particularly important class of articles for us to include on this list. Most articles on entertainment and recreation topics are not long enough to warrant splitting out its History section into a separate article. Our article on {{VA link|Doll}} for example is mostly about the history of dolls, which is fine – there is no issue with not having {{no redirect|history of dolls}} as a separate article, nor is the lack of inclusion of such an article on the V5 list a sign that we don't regard it as an important topic. [[User:Feminist|feminist🩸]] ([[User talk:Feminist|talk]]) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
*I'm not convinced that "history of [recreational item]" is a particularly important class of articles for us to include on this list. Most articles on entertainment and recreation topics are not long enough to warrant splitting out its History section into a separate article. Our article on {{VA link|Doll}} for example is mostly about the history of dolls, which is fine – there is no issue with not having {{no redirect|history of dolls}} as a separate article, nor is the lack of inclusion of such an article on the V5 list a sign that we don't regard it as an important topic. [[User:Feminist|feminist🩸]] ([[User talk:Feminist|talk]]) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}
== Swap {{VA link|Tigrayan peace process}} with {{VA link|Battle of Adwa}} ==
== Swap {{VA link|Tigrayan peace process}} with {{VA link|Battle of Adwa}} ==
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Vital Articles, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of vital articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and work together to increase the quality of Wikipedia's essential articles.Vital ArticlesWikipedia:WikiProject Vital ArticlesTemplate:WikiProject Vital ArticlesVital Articles articles
Moncton's been NB's largest city since before V5 existed. I think Fredericton would be the most appropriate article to swap out since we only have 42 US state capitals and we can cut a Canadian provincial capital. Canada also looks a bit overrepresented at V5 with 22 cities and a population of 39 million. Vileplume(talk)02:33, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removal, support addition - We are under quota in Cities and Fredericton seems important in its own right (as the cultural, educational and administrative center of the province). --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New Brunswick has a population of under 900k, and Saint John is much more important than Fredericton, so it and Moncton should be NB’s two representatives at V5. Vileplume(talk)13:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if this will be a popular opinion, but we could possibly discuss whether to extend the decades we list to the 19th century since we now list all the decades of the 20th and 21st century. We don't have to include all the decades, just the ones that are important. Interstellarity (talk) 01:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alabama's second-largest city and a major port on the Gulf Coast (twelfth-largest in the U.S.). It was also a key center of French colonization and played a major role in the Civil War.
This is a V5-ish city of importance, but Alabama only has a population of 5 million inhabitants and 4 major cities, so I'd only support this if we removed Montgomery or Tuskegee. Sarasota is also over twice as large and not listed. Vileplume(talk)17:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Latter was much more impactful and important for Chile than the former was for Puerto Rico.
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Uninhabited island listed only for being large, and 40th largest in the world and 10th largest in Canada is not very impressive. This archipelago already has roughly 12 listings, and this is the smallest of them.
I'm not convinced that population is the only grounds for vitality. We list 446 islands, and it's easily among the most vital islands for Wikipedia in that range. --Makkool (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The American Revolutionary War4 could definitely use more than 3 battles when the Civil War has 16. This battle had major effects on the war, led to the Siege of Yorktown5 which ended the war, became the first American Revolution battle to have its battlefield preserved by the National Park Service, and it even has a town in New Hampshire named after it!
16 Civil War battles is too many but the Civil War was still fought on a greater order of magnitude than the American Revolutionary War. (The biggest Civil War battles killed more than the entire Revolution). And if we added another American Revolutionary War battle, I'd add Trenton or Brandywine before this one. pbp12:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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This was a major turning point in the history of apartheid, as it marks both the beginning of increased international isolation (including by Western countries) and internal unrest which was increasingly unmanageable in the 1980s (which was when the government made its first milquetoast attempts at reform).
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The only thing I will say is that you could argue for 1994 South African general election to be listed instead (there don't even seem to be any individual elections listed interestingly) but this has broader scope.
I don't really see how this is "specific", given it encompasses most of the early 1990s in South Africa, and aside from the negotiation process itself it also refers both to a political transition and a specific period of internal conflict between rival factions that was quite distinct from the majority of apartheid (more on this is detailed in the article, but to give just one out of many examples, you had several high-profile attacks involving the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging). The ultimate success of a peaceful transition of power in spite of this is a big part of how Nelson Mandela3 became one of the most revered political figures of the 20th century. Iostn (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, this article is essentially synonymous with "end of apartheid", or as close to an article as there is on that. The Soweto uprising was fourteen years before this specific period which lasted from 1990 to 1994. Iostn (talk) 20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Most powerful earthquake ever by recorded magnitude.
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One of the biggest labour revolts of the 19th century, that hasn't been surpassed often in scale.
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Listing the protests leading up to the 2017 Zimbabwean coup d'état5 (when they aren't that distinctive enough in their own right) feels rather redundant when they aren't super distintive in their own right, so swapping with another important Zimbabwean event.
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Mentioned this before but I'd argue this is one of the most important listings for Australian in the 20th century.
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For mine, this is at once too broad and too narrow a concept. It's too broad in the sense that it isn't a tangible historical event or even a singular trend; it's too narrow in that killings of communists in particular isn't really a sufficiently major topic. To me, it looks like we cover this niche very well already without needing a catch-all article on top. J947 ‡ edits03:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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I don't really see why the build-up to the invasion itself is vital as a separate article. The war crimes committed seem like a much more important topic to focus on.
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Major event in modern Burmese history, even if it only resulted in a new junta.
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I actually proposed this over the smaller 2014 Hong Kong protests (2019 was not the beginning or end of this) deliberately as I felt it would be best to encompass those and others more broadly in a generalized overview of political tensions, I wouldn't be opposed to a similar Taiwan article either. Iostn (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, I've thought about this one too. Not sure the concept is that used in the academy or even popularly; the few interwiki links seem to suggest that no. The Blue Rider20:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The largest, most profitable and influential Portuguese colony; it lasted many centuries and dictated the foreign policy of the Portuguese Empire for many decades. Its establishment marked the beggining of European colonization in the Americas, as well as being the biggest reciever of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. As a major trade hub, it fueled Europe's Industrial Revolution with its resources and labor force. To omit Colonial Brazil from vital articles is to overlook a pivotal chapter in human history. The Blue Rider19:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps not as influential as its counterpart, Dutch East India Company, but still a important for the Dutch colonization, some of them still last today (ABC islands, Sint Martin, etc). The Blue Rider19:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article describes it as the first genocide of the 21st century, which has been ongoing since 2003. It led to international outcry and eventually prosecutions in the ICC. (Note that the larger article on the War in Darfur5 is listed, but I feel the genocide on its own its vital enough at this level).
Being one of the 58 provincial capitals in Algeria does not make a city vital. Population is not that high and there is not very much historical importance. All it has going for it is having the home stadium for the Algeria national football team, which is not vital. It is also very close to the capital, further decreasing its vitality. Decent number of interwikis, but that is likely for the same reason as the U.S. state capitals. Overall, this city just doesn't have enough going for it to make the list.
10 cities for Algeria seems about right ratio-wise and in general, I'm inclined to oppose any city removal unless it's blatantly obvious it shouldn't be included because we are actually under-quota for Cities. However, I would support a swap with either Tlemcen (former capital of Medieval Muslim Algeria, more populous, other important historical events) or Béjaïa (largest city in Kabylia which is a region of Algeria that is large enough, culturally unique enough, and significant enough to the history of Algeria that it should also be at VA5 imo, 6th largest port on the Mediterranean, more populous). Aurangzebra (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strangely, that metric at list of cities in Algeria shows the population of Blida as over 100k more than the article on Blida does, despite being only four years older. Blida has the lowest population among the listed cities going by what the infoboxes in the articles say. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:07, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both of those states were formed after the direct occupation/administration period, which is what this article is focused on Iostn (talk) 16:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
West and East Germany are concepts that were created during the allied-occupied Germany, not just after it. The Blue Rider18:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This war saw direct confrontation between the world's two most populous countries. As both states have risen politically and economically, its salience remains important in geopolitics. For instance, during the 2020–2021 China–India skirmishes and the broader Sino-Indian border dispute.
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Go (game)4 is VA4 and has been around for over two millennia, and the History of Games section is way too sports-based. The only other board game history article we have listed currently is History of chess5, and I think that there is room for a second one.
I'm aware that History of gambling does not exist as an article, but it would be the first "history of [game]" topic I'd want to add to the list if it does. I feel like "the most important game for which we have a separate History article on" is not a very good reason to include it, because it probably excludes more important topics which should be added first. I also think sports in general are more popular than games globally, and the greater element of competition in these sports means they have had a more developed history. The average Chinese person probably cares a lot more about, say, the China women's national volleyball team than they care about the game of Go, despite Go being strongly associated with China. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that "history of [recreational item]" is a particularly important class of articles for us to include on this list. Most articles on entertainment and recreation topics are not long enough to warrant splitting out its History section into a separate article. Our article on Doll4 for example is mostly about the history of dolls, which is fine – there is no issue with not having History of dolls as a separate article, nor is the lack of inclusion of such an article on the V5 list a sign that we don't regard it as an important topic. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Even if lasting peace takes place, I am not sure we need two vital articles to cover the Tigray War5. The Battle of Adwa, on the other hand, is a very important event in Ethiopian history. It is the culminating battle of the First Italo-Ethiopian War5, a symbol of Pan-Africanism5, and secured Ethiopia’s independence until the Second Italo-Ethiopian War4.
The city is closely linked to the historical event of Paul the Apostle's shipwreck in Malta. The island's governor, Saint Publius, received him in Mdina. Paul converted the entire island to Christianity and made Publius the 1st Bishop of Malta, who is now a patron saint of the country. Mdina is home to St Paul's Cathedral, serving as the seat of government for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Malta
Mdina is a significant tourist destination, welcoming over 1.5 million visitors annually.
Historical cities is not meant for cities where people still live. It's meant for places that are archaelogical sites for example. Makkool (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss
Yes, the current population is only of a few hundreds but historically it had an higher population comparatively to the rest of the country. The Blue Rider00:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per our recent additions of natural disasters, this is "the most powerful volcanic eruption in recorded human history" and the most likely reason for the Year Without a Summer. Estimates suggest it is also the deadliest volcano eruption in history, directly causing over 71,000 deaths.
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Bratsk is already covered by Irkutsk5 and Irkutsk Oblast5. Novokuznetsk, on the other hand, is a major coal mining and industrial centre and has the 16th highest GMP of all Russian cities. Up until recently, it had a higher population than Kemerovo5. It feels odd excluding it from a list of 6 cities in the Siberian Federal District, let alone 12. Compared to Bratsk, Novo has slightly more interwikis, double the English and Russian pageviews, and 2.4 times the population. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)22:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Had a profound impact on Central and Eastern Europe. The loss of about two-thirds of Hungary's pre-war landmass and population fueled nationalist sentiments and political instability, while internationally, it solidified the post-WWI order, leading to the creation or enlargement of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Austria and Romania.
I know this is sometimes mentioned in the U.S. media, but I am not sure it is so important to world history. We have 7 vital articles covering the Libyan Crisis (2011–present)5, which I think is a recentist bias for a V5 conflict.
An important event in the early Edo period4, that had long-lasting ramifications for the Sakoku5 policy and Christianity in Japan. Amakusa Shirō5 is already a VA.
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It's not even its own article in Japanese Wikipedia.
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This is apparently a World Heritage Site, yet despite being written in 2004, it has only gained a couple of paragraphs.
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I don't know about this. The article says that it is thought to be "currently the largest known settlement in Neolithic Europe". Could the article's importance rating be misjudged? Makkool (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Brașov has a metropolitan area population well over 400k, making it the fourth-largest city in Romania, and in the same boat as the other Romanian cities on the list, excluding Bucharest4 and Târgu Mureș5. I would propose a swap with the latter, but I'd weakly oppose the removal since we're 25 under quota in Cities. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)21:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Framing aside, we already have Mass killings under communist regimes5, which covers a lot of the same ground. For a more definite example, the decimation of Poland's leadership class in the Katyn Massacre was one of the most notorious war crimes by the Soviet Union.
A kingdom in Africa that was seemingly influential for centuries and existed for 1000 years. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Nigeria and Top-Importance by WikiProject Igbo.
It has by far the highest population (40m+) and GDP (~566b) of Russia's federal districts. Should most certainly be at V4. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Kuban is a culturally distinct region of Russia with a population of ~5.8m. and a GDP of $35 billion. Most certainly more vital than the vast majority of the republics. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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A historically relevant region of Ukraine that only became more relevant during the Russo-Ukrainian War5. 3 of the 24 Ukrainian cities we list are located in the region and so was one-seventh of the pre-war population. I'd probably support this at V4. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Along with Transdanubia, which I proposed above, these are the three main regions of Hungary. GHP is rated High-importance in WP Hungary and most of its other WikiProjects. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)12:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Türkiye and Iran have comparable populations, but Iran gets over twice as many cities as Türkiye. Iran also has all but two of its provinces and Türkiye has NOTHING under country subdivisions? The geographical regions of Turkey are definitely all vital at this level. The articles in question are:
We should list some of the historical regions as well. Cappadocia definitely, as its still relevant today and a popular tourist destination. Place under Central Anatolia Region.
Administrative divisions of small, unimportant Central African countries. Angola, Cameroon, and the DRC are the most important countries in the region. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)00:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These sorts of articles being listed premises that the demarcation of a country into regions is the vital topic; rather than the regions themselves – which is clearly false. J947 ‡ edits03:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Administrative divisions of smaller, low-importance Central African countries. Angola, Cameroon, and the DRC are the most important countries in the region. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)00:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These sorts of articles being listed premises that the demarcation of a country into regions is the vital topic; rather than the regions themselves – which is clearly false. J947 ‡ edits03:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Administrative divisions of smaller, low-importance Central African countries. Angola, Cameroon, and the DRC are the most important countries in the region. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)00:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These sorts of articles being listed premises that the demarcation of a country into regions is the vital topic; rather than the regions themselves – which is clearly false. J947 ‡ edits03:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of the pre-2016 regions of France should have representation imo. These were the two regions that were merged into Occitania5 in 2016. Languedoc in particular was kept at V4 for an extended amount of time during the cull. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)01:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would rather remove Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex than add these. I don't know what value adding these sort of articles would provide - we already list the notable cities in each metro area. The Dallas-Fort Worth case is especially egregious since it's not even a particularly large or significant metro area when compared to the rest of the world and we already list Dallas and Fort Worth separately. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason why these areas are notable is because of their principal city. No need to list their metro areas separately. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should get rid of them all. Either have a metro article or a municipality article. Do we need both for any city? There are a lot of capital city readds I would consider a bigger difference than adding a metro area on top of a city.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't compare this list with any other; the vast majority of the article is listing the states and union territories, so it is a list and is marked as so. The Blue Rider14:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, this article failed a GA review precisely because it is a list and lists can't be GA. The Blue Rider14:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whether this article should be listed at VA5 is in my opinion contingent not on if India's states and union territories are individually important enough, but on if the very delineation of India into states is itself a sufficiently important encyclopaedic topic. In my opinion, this does not quite reach that bar (and neither does U.S. state, or any other such division). J947 ‡ edits22:49, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's University is listed at level 4. Cambridge's history goes back over 800 years, we list English places such as Milton Keynes which was founded in the 1960's. The whole county of Cambridgeshire was named after it. We list English towns like Dover which have less than a quarter the population of the city of Cambridge. Internationally people seem more interested in Cambridge which appears in 124 languages, compared with Milton Keynes which appears in less than half at 61; Dover, Northampton, Derby, Luton, Norwich which are all listed also appear in under 100 languages compared to Cambridge's 124.
This was suggested at level 4 over 10 years ago, had some support, but more opposition and was not added. (see here) Main argument was why Roman Britain and not all the other Roman provinces. However I think the topic is definately important enough for level 5. . I'm not opposing them but we are listing, or will be soon, British Hong Kong, and New Amsterdam, which concern the history of an individual city for a number of centuries or less. In the case of New Amsterdam, concerns a population of around 2500 people for 50 years. Istanbul is level 3, Constantinople level 4 and Byzantium level 5, although that covers many centuries. Also Many of the early English monarchs we list, cover mainly what they did in the decades or years they were in power over the land. Roman Britain covers the whole of England and Wales for 350 years. If one were to study as a general reader or a specialist, anything to do with British history, Roman Britain would be a topic in and of itself before every individual monarch standing alone. There are many books on this very subject, and it appears as a topic/section in more general history books of Britain as well. It was covered in detail when I attended school and College. (I live in England, but still). It looks like we may soon add Londinium, essentially London under the Romans, I would imagine the whole island of Britain under the Romans is more vital than the single city of London under the Romans.
Ah my apologies. For some reason, I thought the other movements were under the Film section but I completely misread. Moving it back. Aurangzebra (talk) 18:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not every VA4 city has its history listed, and they don't all need to. This city is big, but there are plenty of bigger cities that don't have their histories listed. This city has only existed since 1881, and it does not have a lot of historical importance.
I disagreed with what you did to Delaware just as I disagree with what you did to Vermont. Either Wilmington or Dover should have been retained, and Burlington should be retained as well. pbp12:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd readd Wilmington, due to Delaware and New Castle county having a significantly higher population than Vermont/Burlington and Wyoming/Cheyenne. It is also very close to the capital of New Sweden. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)12:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Salem and Eugene are basically the same size but Salem's the state capital. There's nothing to back up the assertion in the nomination that Eugene is more vital. Being a state capital has to count for something. Oregon having three doesn't bother me at all. pbp03:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This Southwest Floridian city is a historically and especially demographically important city in Florida. The metro area in particular is projected to hit 1 million by the end of the decade. Unlike Greenville, however, its urban area population is actually significant. Vileplume 🍋🟩 (talk)01:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When I look at the cities that we've removed or almost removed, I don't think Sarasota has a chance. Compare that we removed Palm Springs. pbp03:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably added for its relation to the Samoan crisis5, which is already a weak V5 in my opinion, as it is part of the broader Samoan Civil War5 and later Second Samoan Civil War5. The Samoan crisis article only mentions the cyclone once.
During my nomination of the Israel–Hamas war5 some of you expressed support for a swap. The Israel-Palestine conflict may be overrepresented for its current salience.