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Done. Thank you for your service. It's a shame we're losing so many good admins over this but I completely understand. 28bytes (talk) 17:44, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't been involved in any of the Fram-related discussions, and I'm not here to do so. The only thing I wanted to say was to point out a statementbyJEissfeldt (WMF) yesterday, that said, in part (it's a long statement): "I appreciate in particular the idea put forward by Newyorkbrad and his having been explicit that it could only be valid if it is true that the community has reached accurate conclusions about the facts of the case. However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB's condition is not met." I interpret that to mean that this was more than an incivility ban and that the Foundation will not tell us what it is, just as the Committee sometimes won't tell us certain things, which we have to accept. I don't know if that makes any difference to you, Boing! said Zebedee, but I thought it would be worth mentioning. I'll miss you.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:49, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did read it, thanks, and it was not until after I read it that I made my decision. I won't go into my whole thoughts about that statement here, as it really won't help. And thanks for your thoughts. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:52, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Bbb23's statement "just as the Committee sometimes won't tell us certain things", I have never seen the Arbitration Committee (if that is who is being referred to) evade publicly giving all of the necessary and relevant details on any matter, excepting details which would seriously violate privacy (real names, etc.). ArbCom always summarizes actions taken and explains them. They have never refused to give rationales and details when asked. ArbCom is specifically tasked with privately handling matters or details that would violate our privacy policies, and the fact that ArbCom has not yet privately received information or details from WMF which would explain their rationale and due diligence, to me speaks volumes. Softlavender (talk) 11:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Softlavender: did you see Opabinia saying on 22 June [1]: "dialogue with arbcom" (or the subset able to join in) did happen, the T&S members who attended were very generous with their time, and I think we're all still digesting and considering followupstarship.paint (talk)17:29, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which makes them now seem rather irrelevant; who now will want to run for the poisoned chalice that is arbcom 2020. T & S have breached a deeply rooted social contract, the effects of which are filtering down through the ranks. I must say, Boing!'s gesture here is very meaningful, and appreciated, much as I am aghast to see an admin "who gets it" hand in the tools. On the bright side, our community is together as never before. Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Polls are one thing, I'm thinking a deeper unity is emerging. Certainly broader understanding of the workload good admins have to carry, and the scarcity of talent like that which reeks from highly active syops like Fram. Will it seep into RFA? Dunno. Hope so. Ceoil (talk) 18:52, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Starship.paint, nowhere did Opabinia say that any evidence whatsoever was provided to ArbCom or that any plausible rationale whatsoever was given for Fram's sudden unapeallable ban and desysop or for WMF's refusal to undo it. Softlavender (talk) 23:16, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Desysop request -- Kusma
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Reading through the statements of my two colleagues above, I find myself agreeing with almost every word they said. The way things look at the moment (I sincerely hope that changes in the future), I do not wish to hold advanced permissions on this project. Please remove my sysop bit. —Kusma (t·c) 10:52, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Desysop request - Dennis Brown
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Disheartening to read Boing! said Zebedee's comments and the comments of others. I won't labor it, just please remove my admin bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢17:07, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Yes.... (desysop for Lectonar)
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The Meta policy on global bans states that a global ban is a formal revocation of editing or other access privileges (emphasis added). The Office Actions as performed by the WMF include partial bans, which hold the same weight as a global ban but are language/site-specific. The WMF (and by extension, the WMFOffice account) does not need enwiki approval to ban or remove the permissions of a user, and their global policy specifically states that banned members should not hold access privileges, which include access to deletedtext as an admin.
To come back to enwiki policies, our policy on administrators states that Regardless of how adminship is removed... In doubtful cases, re-granting will be deferred until a broader community discussion takes places and is closed.
Per the above two sections, Fram's bit should not have been restored and will be removed again. WJBscribe has stated that they will not oppose their actions being reversed, and until ArbCom and/or the WMF make a statement as to the outcome of the situation, Fram's userrights should not be changed.
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On 26 February 2007, the enwiki community granted admin right to Fram (talk·contribs). There has never been a resolution of the enwiki community, nor of its Arbitration Committee, to remove those rights. On 10 June 2019, they were removed unilaterally by WMFOffice (talk·contribs). That action has not, in accordance with prior precedent, been referred to the enwiki ArbCom. There has been no public statement, despite two weeks having been elapsed, from WMF to state that ArbCom is for some reason unsuited to reviewing Fram's status as an administrator. There has not even been a clear statement that private off-wiki actions by Fram were considered by WMF as part of their decision to enact sanctions. In the intervening period, enwiki ArbCom has not found that Fram's onwiki actions justify removal of admin permissions. Nor has a community process reached that view and endorsed WMF's actions. It seems to me that we have now been more than patient with WMF, the Board and (for that matter) with ArbCom, to which I self-referred my earlier actions on 13 June 2019. Fram has asked two very simple questions. They are questions that as a matter of basic fairness ought to have been answered regardless of whether anyone believes Fram to be guilty or innocent of (as yet unspecified) misconduct. They have not been answered. Those questions, and those raised by members of this community, have been met with obfuscation and delay. In light of the absence of any serious attempt by WMF to engage in discussions with the enwiki community since this incident occurred, I have therefore restored Fram's community-granted admin rights. WJBscribe(talk)23:49, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You should resign, and you should do so immediately. You have demonstrated a repeated willingness to violate the Terms of Use, exceed the mandate that the community has granted you as a bureaucrat, and inflame conflict on-wiki based on your own personal opinions. I have absolutely zero confidence in your impartiality as it pertains to anything. ~ Rob13Talk00:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And I think you should regain your admin tools and your ArbCom seat, and resume acting in both roles because I value differences of opinion and believe this community is richer for them. But there we go, we clearly have different views about things... WJBscribe(talk)00:07, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You have done an excellent job in cultivating an unsafe environment in which I do not feel able to participate administratively. ~ Rob13Talk00:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WJBscribe, the issue is that you've made it so that no one who has a different view than you can act, however. If ArbCom de-crats you, they alienate at least half the community. If they do nothing, they alienate another substantial portion of the community. If the WMF de-crats you, there's even more outrange at them and they risk destroying the flagship project. If they do nothing, they risk that any action they take on any wiki that is legitimate is undone with impunity. Any local bureaucrat that reverse you is wheel warring, even if they disagree with your choice. Literally any action taken that is not in line with your views would destroy the community.
I have been critical of the way the WMF has handled this: I do not think project specific bans make any sense and think they need to explain things better, but what you have done is the single thing in this entire saga that most threatens the cohesiveness of the en.wiki community. I'm begging you, please consider reversing yourself here and waiting until the ban expires to do anything. Fram cannot use his tools or he will be globally locked, so it is just a symbolic gesture, but one that threatens tearing us apart even more than we already are. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:27, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with you as to the danger of this action. But even if I did, I don't think it would deter me. Fram has a right to fair process, and hasn't had it. WJBscribe(talk)00:34, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then would you be willing to state that you have no issue with any bureaucrat who disagrees with your action reversing it, and that you would not consider it wheel warring? TonyBallioni (talk) 00:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On any other project, WJBscribe would have been emergency de-crated by stewards. I think him saying that he's fine with a reversal without it being wheel warring is good enough for any crat who does not consider his action legitimate to act. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure they would have. Maybe not on de.wiki, but the number of projects where a crat can undo multiple office actions with impunity can be counted on one hand. This isn't some new policy like the local bans. The office has had the ability to remove permissions from local projects for ages, and they have. We're in unprecedented territory here in that a 'crat on a large wiki has undone two office removals of permissions, and no one knows what to do. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is not unprecedented - Odder on Commons, 2014 and then again in 2015 following the global ban of Russavia. In the first case, stewards performed the removals, but did not continue wheel warring. After that WMF basically was tasked with doing all their removals themselves - I don't know if it was formally decided, but stewards generally didn't want to get involved in a war between WMF and the crats. (But if it turns into crat versus crat, that's a different story). --Rschen775401:19, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@WJBscribe: As your action enables this restricted person to perform privileged activity that is not publicly logged (for example the ability to access deleted revisions), I don't think this is a good idea right now, and further escalates the conflict. — xaosfluxTalk00:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think we've waited more than enough time for an explanation as to why this person is "restricted" (as you euphemistically put it) or, at the very least, for an explanation as to why we can't be told WMF's reasons. WJBscribe(talk)00:34, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve dug through the history. The ban is absolutely justified. Please reverse yourself now. We will sort out WMF’s bungled process and communication in due course. There is no deadline. JehochmanTalk00:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps if you look even deeper you may realise that you only think that you've identified what happened, not that you actually have. EricCorbett00:54, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Unless you know some information that the rest of the community doesn't, then all this means is that you have a lower standard for what merits a siteban than the rest of the community. Whether Fram should be banned, or equivalently whether the community thinks his ban is justified, is a matter for consensus, and consensus has shown that it isn't. * Pppery *it has begun...00:50, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Things just get curiouser and curiouser. It would seem that Arb has had plenty of opportunity to pipe in and opine on the desysop, and they don't seem to have done much at all publicly. Not sure this was the right move or not, but I respect it as it makes it harder for the WMF and Arb to just kick this can down the road hoping we lose interest in the case. Dennis Brown - 2¢00:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One possible endgame is that Fram resumes editing and Jan decides not to follow through on the threat of global lock so as not to inflame the situation further. Haukur (talk) 00:55, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a tactic that's worked well for them in the past. But everything comes to an end, one day even Wikipedia itself. Is this the day? Who knows. EricCorbett00:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good. I have no idea if Fram should be desysopped or not, but if so, it should be done locally, or (in an emergency) an explanation should be provided to ArbCom in less than, say, 10 days. —Floquenbeam (talk) 00:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Were the ban already rescinded, I would be on board with this. But as it is, Fram remains banned on en.wp, and there is a consensus that a banned user should not have admin tools, primarily because of viewdeleted (which a block/ban doesn't prevent). I strongly urge WJBScribe to retract this action and think a bit more about this. We're already complaining about Jan escalating things with content-free bullshit; please don't stoop to his level of "discourse". —A little blue Boriv^_^vBori!01:15, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Maxim and Primefac: I'm a little confused about this "joint statement", was it prepared/discussed off-wiki or did you both reach the same conclusion at the same time and Maxim simply signed their name to it? –xenotalk13:18, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Recall request (WJBscribe)
WJBscribe has voluntarily requested removal of his administrator and bureaucrat access in the #Resignation section below. Although he noted that his resignation is irrespective of the recall discussion in this section, I no longer think this recall discussion will serve any useful purpose for the immediate future. (non-bureaucrat closure)Mz7 (talk) 08:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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@WJBscribe: The first 'crat action you took was questionable at best and, thankfully, no one needed to bring it to ArbCom because you brought it there yourself. You escalated this, again, for no reason. You have the option to recall yourself on your userpage and I'd like to take you up on that now. — MoeEpsilon01:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Having a request for arbitration active that is likely to result in being closed in a motion doesn't have to stop a recall from happening. (unless WJBscribe is desysopped in that motion of course) — MoeEpsilon01:12, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think an individual who takes a step that is all but guaranteed to divide an already divided community even more should retain access to the bureaucrat permission, and would encourage WJBscribe to resign rather than put the community through a divisive recall RfB. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:20, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As TonyBallioni implies above, bureaucrats are supposed to be above reproach. What WJBscribe has done here is incompatible with the high degree of trust which the community has placed in the position, both as a specific action (granting a user banned for harassment access to deleted information) and as a general one (acting to further inflame an already-divisive community dispute). WJBscribe, please do the honorable thing and resign. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 01:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. I see no grounds for WJBscribe not to be a bureaucrat. The WMF has explicitly stated that The removal of administrator access is intended as enforcement of the temporary partial Foundation ban placed on Fram, and the community has clearly indicated at WP:FRAM that it views that office action as wrong. This, to me, is no different from WJBscribe's recratting of Floquenbeam or Floquenbeam's unblock of Fram. None of those actions launched a serious recall movement, demonstrating the lack of any valid reason for a recall here. * Pppery *it has begun...01:46, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is he gave the technical access to deleted/non-public information to a account banned for misconduct that WJBscribe himself doesn't have all the facts of (regardless of the unblock by Floq). If that doesn't strike you as serious misconduct, especially while not discussing a resysop on-wiki before pulling the trigger (unless I missed it somewhere), then I don't see what is. — MoeEpsilon01:53, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The community still trusts Fram with access to that deleted information, though. My understanding of the point WJBscribe was making, in both of his resysoppings, was that he does not believe the office to have the social power to desysop users (apologies if I am misunderstanding, here) and is willing to use his bureaucrat access to revert actions he feels to be outside procedure. In that regard, both actions were the same. And no, in this case I don't view enforcing clear, policy-backed community consensus and procedure as serious misconduct that merits removal of rights. * Pppery *it has begun...01:59, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a betrayal of trust because his actions actively harmed the community he claims to be trying to protect. His actions here are going to be significantly more divisive than anything the WMF did. If you want the chapter and verse, here is the quote from the applicable policy In doubtful cases, re-granting will be deferred until a broader community discussion takes places and is closed. There was no community discussion on this. It was a unilateral action that was guaranteed to inflame passions more, and there are calls for a recall here, which would be very divisive. He should not put the community through that. Like Kiril said, the honourable thing to do is resign. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:03, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I do. Bureaucrats were given their role to determine consensus for practices such as RFA because they were thought to have good judgement, not to unilaterally go against Office because they took too long to reply and potentially damage Wikipedia. Bureaucrats don't have the authority to go above the Foundation, as evidenced by the fact Fram is still banned, regardless of his unblock and his tools being returned. If he edits, his account will be globally locked, as Jan said. The false consensus at WP:FRAM doesn't really change that. — MoeEpsilon02:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For two reasons: 1) Because you're forming "consensus" based on a lack of information. The fact the Foundation has office hours and privacy to consider prohibits them from fully explaining actions they have taken. And let me be clear, the lack of information goes both ways, whether you support the ban or not, because without knowing the full details you're just guessing. 2) Any consensus formed there can't actually overturn the Office action of him being banned. You can undo all their actions, re-sysop Fram and block the Foundation accounts for the fun of it, but they can bypass that and "consensus" doesn't change it. — MoeEpsilon02:17, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No one's asking for a "full explanation". No one's asking for the Foundation to respond 24/7. No one's asking for confidential information. These are straw men you're throwing up. We're just asking for a simple confirmation that the ban was not outright corrupt, as it is alleged to be. If the Foundation cannot deny corruption, that raises red flags. Also, the consensus there is overwhelming, and is prominently advertised to the community, and is being left open for an extended period—it ticks all the boxes of a community-level discussion as opposed to a local discussion. It's disingenuous to call it a "false consensus". Just because Foundation staff don't have to respect our community's consensus doesn't render it nonexistent. And, just because you disagree with the prevailing view doesn't mean you get to supervote it as "false". ~Swarm~{sting}03:59, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you might not be asking for confidential information but some people are asking for more information than others, and it severely limits the resources of the WMF to try and reply to everyone as a collective. At any rate, it's not my 'vote' to determine it false, it just is. I've outlined why consensus is disingenuous there (a lack of information and a lack of ability to enforce anything realistically) and neither of which is something relevant to my opinion on the case. — MoeEpsilon07:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm at a loss at how one of the bureacrats I used to hold in such high esteem would engage in such reckless actions. I understand that emotions are high, but I expect our bureacrats to be calm and cautious, rather than jumping in head first. I don't really want more people to resign, I'm just disappointed. Legoktm (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this was what prompted me to comment on the situation to begin with. If you want to fall on your sword, then fall on your sword and resign. Otherwise you're just making things worse, in a situation where, if we're being completely honest, most of the community is either unaware or doesn't care otherwise, and is happily carrying about their business without the theatrics. GMGtalk02:18, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to mirror what most are saying here. Perhaps it is time to hand in your tools and step down. I also think it was inappropriate to edit past the lock and add your personal views of the ban on their user page like you did here. PackMecEng (talk) 02:25, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anyone close enough to WJBscribe to ensure that his account has not been compromised? While the resysop of Floq was much bolder than I would expect from him - in all my interactions and from what I've ever seen of WJBscribe - this is beyond what he would do even in extreme circumstances. I could follow the reasoning of handing in ones tools, and many have, but this just seems very Un-WJBscribe like. — Ched : ? — 02:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support holding a recall vote I've been following some of the discussions and while the resysoping of Floquenbeam was understandable the latest resysoping seems unreasonable at this point in time. From what I've followed in the earlier discussion that there has already been concerns with Fram's action as an administrator. As pointed out above if the allegations of harassment are true this action gave privileged access to someone that should have it. While I admire the self-reporting, this is not the relative haste I expect from a bureaucrat. And yes 13 or so days is hasty given the volume of discussions still going on. Given the recent votes for ArbCom towards accepting for a motion it should have at the very least waited for the outcome regardless of what the likely outcome might or might now be. Further having resysoped Floquenbeam, it would have been better if this had been a another bureaucrat or even a bureaucrat discussion. If the intent was represent that community the actions should be carried out by multiple parties. PaleAqua (talk) 02:34, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural Note: Please keep in mind, there is no official process for a Bureaucrat Recall discussion, nor is there policy support to enforce results. Let's please give @WJBscribe: time to respond to this request, and help determine the best venue to host it if he chooses to participate. — xaosfluxTalk02:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am left Speechless echo what Ched says and did not expect from WJBscribe .He has been one of the highest regarded crats in the Project for years.Sadly this is clearly violates WP:INVOLVED as a Arbcom case is ongoing and further he should have consulted the other crats policy is clear In doubtful cases, re-granting will be deferred until a broader community discussion takes places and is closed. and before doing anything like this.This is not an emergency no resysop is and hence we have 24 hour wait period.I do agree with Kirill Lokshin and all above this is a very delicate period for the project and this only can inflame an already-divisive community dispute particurly through unilateral actions.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:55, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've largely stayed out of all this, but WJBscribe's actions frighten me. Most of what's happening at WP:FRAM is mob rule. I'm ok with people expressing their opinions there, but it gets scary when people start declaring that this represents community consensus, and acting on it. WJBscribe, if you disagree with what WMF did, that's fine. You have the right to speak out against it. But, don't go using the tools that have been entrusted to you to enforce your opinion. Even more so than admins, crats are entrusted with great power, and I expect them to wield that power with deliberation and care. I don't want activist crats. You no longer have my trust. -- RoySmith(talk)03:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I support User:WJBscribe voluntarily initiating, as per User:WJBscribe#Recall, a test of the confidence of a simple majority of the community for his continuing to hold the Bureaucrat privilege. I personally will support him for his considered political action that did not break anything, but it is obviously contentious. ArbCom may well consider the same question, but ArbCom is supposed to be the last resort, the seven-day recall RfB test result should be on the table before they decide on actions. WJBscribe should do this promptly, so that the ArbCom case is not delayed by waiting for it. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply] Someone above wrote:
If ArbCom de-crats you, they alienate at least half the community. If they do nothing, they alienate another substantial portion of the community. If the WMF de-crats you, there's even more outrange at them and they risk destroying the flagship project. If they do nothing, they risk that any action they take on any wiki that is legitimate is undone with impunity. Any local bureaucrat that reverse you is wheel warring, even if they disagree with your choice. Literally any action taken that is not in line with your views would destroy the community.
and they are right. This difficult situation is rescued by something between this voluntary test of confidence and a resignation. The voluntary test of confidence is most consistent with the position that he considers his action to have been the right thing to do. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This might be reasonable if WJB refused to be accountable for his action, but he preemptively acknowledged the controversy of what he did, and freely opened himself up for review and any consequences when he self-reported to Arbcom. The WMF declined taking action against him, though Arbcom is also on it. There is also already a community discussion in place, in which the consensus overwhelmingly supports him. So attempting to make an extraordinary argumentum ad populum desysop attempt in this context seems like a disingenuous attempt to punish by a quaternary method. He should not be morally obliged to bow to this dubious request, just because a user states the obvious fact that he was "not allowed to do that". ~Swarm~{sting}05:55, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Govindaharihari:Please run an RfA so we can get a sense of the community's view on your judgment as to who should be blocked. I'll even nominate you. Serious offer! If you pass, you'll even get to block WJB yourself! ~Swarm~{sting}07:09, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is a extremely serious violation of the tools by WJBscribe and your comedy comments regarding it here do nothing to change my position. Govindaharihari (talk) 07:26, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Govindaharihari, I think you have been here long enough to understand that blocks are preventative, not punitive. WJBscribe has already said they will accept the reversal of their action by another crat, and that has already happened. So there is nothing to prevent now, is there? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:40, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Boing! said Zebedee. I knew he had been reverted, sadly required by his actions. As regards your comment, well, yes there is in my opinion, this user is now making his second controversial use of his tools and there is no evidence to suggest he won't make a third with them. Govindaharihari (talk)
Sadly, yes, this situation and the actions are or do make me sad, he has accepted his actions and requested removal, removing the need to block. Govindaharihari (talk) 08:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)That, and blocking WJBscribe for some (unspecified) duration but without a recall process would presumably mean WJBscribe keeps the admin flag. I'm not sure that's what Govindaharihari wants. I'm not even sure Govindaharihari really knows what they want. This kind of thoughtless "lock him up and throw away the key" nonsense is something I associate more with the comments section of a Daily Mail article than Wikipedia. ReykYO!07:50, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reyk, could you point to the community consensus to resysop Fram? AFAIK, the vast majority of discussion has been on the block, and no large discussion has occurred specifically on the question of resysopping? Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:12, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think community consensus is clear that the WMF should not have done a damn thing to Fram. It's academic anyway because, resysopped or not, Fram still can't actually do anything and WJBscribe has resigned as an admin in the meantime. ReykYO!08:15, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support recall or immediate re-desysop of Fram. Either is fine with me. Seriously, Will, this was reckless and irresponsible, what the community needs now is diplomacy, not a bunch of cowboy sysops. So just because the WMF goes in gung-ho and does something controversial out of the blue that upsets people, it's okay for us to respond in kind? No, I thought we were better than that. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)07:31, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose recall. Under more normal circumstances, I would have been at least somewhat critical. But we live through a constitutional crisis. WMF is stonewalling, the board seems to be deadlocked, and even Jimbo has effectively vanished. The resysop is one of the milder forms of reminding the foundation that they need but do not have (to quote Jefferson) "the consent of the governed". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support recall I agree with Ritchie that we don't need cowboys here. Crats have more advanced permissions than admins, and so are expected to act with caution, and not take reckless individual actions that further divides the community (as Tony has said above). Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:39, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose recall I am aware this is now moot, given WJB's resignation below, but feel I should state my view for the record. --NSH001 (talk) 08:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose recall Congratulations supporters of this motion, you got rid of him, someone whose primary flaw was caring too much about fairness. Now that you've successfully deprived the project of a competent 'crat, will you actually wake up and aim to address the underlying reason for all this mess? I think not, and I severely doubt that WJB will be the last 'crat who resigns as part of this saga. Promethean (talk)08:19, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Resignation (WJBscribe)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I note that my action has been overturned by other bureaucrats. In light of that action in the context of recent WMF actions (and failure to engage regarding them), and irrespective of the "recall" discussion started above, I neither wish to continue as an administrator or bureaucrat of this project, nor is it tenable for me to do so. Please remove my admin rights locally. I will post a request in relation to the bureaucrat rights on meta. I'm done here. WJBscribe(talk)07:49, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WJBscribe - You may be dying on a hill without a cause here. Please refer yourself to the developments at FRAMBAN before making any further hasty decisions. Yes, the WMF has failed miserably here and it's causing grievous problems. No, you shouldn't have reinstated Fram's tools. That said, even Doc James is opposing your recall. Please, patience. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:57, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please stay; we are already losing admins at a record rate. James (who, FWIW has opposed the recall) and the BoT is already looking into the issue and I have significant faith that this kerfuffle will be resolved, soon-enough. ∯WBGconverse08:15, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Echo the general sentiments above: Would much rather he didn't resign, he's had such a positive effect on the project over many years, and was one of the few who stuck up for what was right and fair as opposed to what was popular. Promethean (talk)08:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I won't be the one to pull this trigger given my other roles, but I do think it was the right thing to do. I am sorry to see you go WJBscribe, you've been an individual who I have looked up to throughout my time on Wikipedia. WormTT(talk) 08:23, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of the unsubstantiated speculation being posted by Jehochman (that the ban is based on substantive evidence of harassment by Fram), 'crats acting in a solo, apparent renegade fashion, is not something wholly supported by the community. A cratchat would have unified the 'crat position with minority views fully expressed. In fact, if the Fran ban is ever fully justified it leaves egg on the face of those who have acted impetuously. A discussion concerning clouds is needed. Leaky caldron (talk) 08:55, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And as I argued further up the page, it's not even that important. Sysop or not, Fram can't actually do anything until the ban expires or is lifted. And when that happens, there is little doubt that they'll get the admin bit back anyway, unless of course the WMF decide they want to start vetoing RfAs. ReykYO!09:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps someone should renominate Fram at RfA in absentia, on the basis that no rationale was actually given for his desysopping. ~Swarm~{sting}09:23, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to see this, and to see some users descend to aggressive language, but I won't characterise on it being the right thing to do or not. Suffice it to say that this whole episode is yet another result of the FRAMBAN; it's tearing our community apart, and it's time the powers that be (whoever they are, Doc James) sit up and now start doing some serious talking and open some proper and transparent quadripartite dialog with the WMF, the BoT, Arbcon, and the community. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Will, I'm gutted to see this. I don't edit much these days, but I've been reading up on the case. It's not hyperbole to say that the actions around the FRAMBAN thing have caused significant damage to the community, and in particular the morale of many long term / experienced editors. Take care. I hope to see you back. Pedro : Chat 09:56, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's impossible to acknowledge WJB's "wrongdoing" without suggesting that Floq should be desysopped. No one has suggested that it was wrong of WJB to reinstate Floq's bit (Floq is equally open to recall, with no objections to their resysopping.) This is all a fabricated crisis of confidence. ~Swarm~{sting}10:20, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are you only choosing to read those comments that agree with your point of view? I'll give you hint, go have a look at Rob's, mine, and a few others comments on RFAR. -- KTC (talk) 12:48, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If I were a Crat, I would not remove the bits, like Dweller has stated above. Sometimes, doing the right thing has consequences, but I was hoping this wasn't one of them. The admin (and now Crat) bleadout due to FramGate keeps adding up. Dennis Brown - 2¢10:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As regretful as the decision is, I think Will's requests should be respected. I didn't see anyone trying to convince all those who have been de-sysopped to think again, or to delay by a week. I don't see this as any different. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thoughtful point, TRM. There's a significant difference in that with the ongoing Arbcom case, WJB is clearly 'under a cloud'. I do wish we weren't here. But your argument is persuasive and WJB knows policy well enough to know what he's doing. I'll grit my teeth and do this. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!10:54, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They have a mandatory 24 hour cooling off period for self-requests on meta, so that won't happen until tomorrow. If anyone is unduly concerned, I confirm that I won't use the bureaucrat permissions in the meantime. WJBscribe(talk)11:14, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
has anyone considered that that might be good for self-requests here as well? (With all due respect WJB, and not to imply that you came to this decision hotheadedly). Thank you for your service. Crazynast11:24, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Crazynas: the primary difference is that if an admin in good standing resigns here they can (typically) just ask for reinstatement, on meta you can not. — xaosfluxTalk11:39, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, Dweller has already noted it as being under a cloud. While I haven't looked into the details of the case, it seems an inescapable observation that there was controversy immediately preceding the request. Samsara19:04, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Once we process it, only way to regain your access via Steward is 'go to another round of RfA/B/whatever'. I once restored without new RfX but that was handling compromised admin account so it is a different story. — regards, Revi14:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All of this transpired between the time I logged out yesterday and my just now looking back here today. I'm just very, very, very sad. Admittedly, this entire mess was avoidable, because contrary to what is widely being said, no magical deadline has passed, and there is no need for anyone to have decided that now is the time to die on a hill. But I still think that WJBScribe has been a real hero to the en-wiki community (or, if anyone really wants to argue with me, a real hero to me). The amount of time between his action and his resignation has been far short of what would have been needed if there were to have been a thoughtful discussion. He acted too quickly, and the calls here for his de-crat-ing were too much mired in the emotions of the moment. This entire thing has been a series of really fine people allowing themselves to get overly upset over a dismal situation, instead of just taking a much-needed breath to think it over. None of this needed to happen, and I hope that in the near future we will be able to return to happier times. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:46, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose recall. Just in case sanity breaks loose at WMF headquarters and/or WJBScribe decides to come back and seek privileges, I think it is worth continuing the 'closed' vote above simply to say that he should not be treated as having resigned 'under a cloud'. The constitutional crisis has brought us to a point where the interpretation of the existing rules is undefined. Wnt (talk) 21:34, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. There is a Hobbesian thing going on here, where in the absence of clear and fair governance (i.e. the WMF actions) the lives of very good admins has become Nasty, brutish and short. I'm pretty sure clear and appropriate governance will return; and when it does I hope all the good admins and crat(s) who gave up permissions will be welcomed back. It's very sad to see all this incredible volunteer talent going down the tubes. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 21:52, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Except there are many of us who now that WJBscribe has done the honourable thing and bowed out are not going to comment further out of respect for him. I threatened to block a WMF contractor and admin who in my view gravedanced over the Fram thing, and if anyone did the same to WJBscribe, I'd tell them to knock it off just as forcefully. No thread after someone resigns where people are, correctly, thanking him for his service is going to be reflective of community views on his action. I have very strong views on it, which I have only partially discussed here. I'm pretty confident that there are others who are appalled by the way that the WMF has handled the situation who are equally appalled by Will's actions. You won't be hearing their voices here because basic human decency says they shouldn't be raising them. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Itis a constitutional crisis and the correct behavior is up for debate, so I don't see why they should not continue. From the Fram case (among many other things) I'd say we have altogether too much "decency" here already. Let the winds of doctrine blow. Wnt (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Glad to see the requests being closed but kept on the page. I know the community hates to see the mass resignations, but there are more on the way. Feeling forced to resign due to the corporatization of the wiki isn't fun. Many of us remember back when this really was a "project", not an unpaid job. Dennis Brown - 2¢11:14, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Really very sorry to see this. There were some useful clarifications by ArbCom members in the recently declined Jehochman ArbCom Fram case, that ArbCom would not be getting access to all the information regarding the Fram ban (from Joe Roe), and that without such information, ArbCom has nothing further to really add on the specific Fram ban (from Gorilla Warfare), and that ArbCom had not spoken with the WMF since the 19 June, and didn't expect to speak again until 3 July (from Silk Tork). Ultimately, wrongly or rightly, WMF will be taking private office actions regarding civility violations outside of the on-wiki/ArbCom process; I can understand that such a system may be at odds with what various editors believed the system was, and for which they donated their time and service. This affair has seen an extraordinary amount of editing talent depart WP, and only yesterday, the WP CEO has tweeted that this is a "garden variety" drama. Britishfinance (talk) 12:14, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It appears she also said "When you have to retweet your shitty pseudo-thinkpiece three times because no one cares." [2] in reference to an article that was critical of the WMF's handling of the aftermath, seemingly undermining the WMF's authority on deciding what is and isn't "civil". Dennis Brown - 2¢14:03, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the Buzzfeed Newsarticle was pretty balanced given how complex this affair is; and Katherine may not realize Buzzfeed News is a WP:RSP. She also needs to realise that the WP community is not the Reddit or Tripadvisor community; WP requires a highly-skilled and long-tenured user-base to function. Britishfinance (talk) 14:26, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Same here. It wasn't fanning flames, it was actual journalism. A few facts were off point, but on the whole it was a fairly disciplined article. Dennis Brown - 2¢14:50, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and tellingly, even those who are generally supportive of the Fram Ban have commented that the tweet was unhelpful, unfair and a needless attack on a journalist. As I saw it, The article was by-and-large just trying to report the facts, without taking any sides. — Amakuru (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Back on topic, really very sorry to see you resign, 28bytes. You are always a calm and fair-minded voice in our discussions. I've not yet seen a rationale for your resignation, but given your most recent contribs, I imagine it's over the entirely unnecessary mess WMF have foisted us with and walked away from, which makes it all the more regrettable. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!15:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you to everyone above for your kind words. DannyS712 is correct, I have filed a request on meta to relinquish my bureaucrat and global renamer rights, which I expect they'll do a few hours from now. I'm a bit sad about that, as I enjoyed both of those tasks very much. I am also requesting here to relinquish my administrator rights. I suppose I could technically do it myself, but if there's one thing bureaucrats enjoy, it's clicking buttons, so have it, 'crats!
There's not much to say that hasn't already been said better by others, so I'll spare everyone my own manifesto except to say there are a lot of good people who edit here, and I will miss working with you all very much. Thank you, best wishes, and take care. 28bytes (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Unable to continue (sysop resignation for MSGJ)
I have thought long and hard about this, but do not feel able to continue to contribute in the current environment. I had hoped it would be resolved satisfactorily by now, but this is looking increasingly unlikely. Please accept my resignation and remove the admin tools. Thank you and best wishes — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:38, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wish MSGJ the very best, and the same for all of the other admins and 'crats who have done the same in recent weeks, regardless of the opinions they hold on our current brouhaha. I'm now going to point out something worrisome. We've lost 2 of 14 interface admins in two weeks, and one of the remaining IAs is actually a bot. This is potentially problematic. Are there any other viable candidates in the pipeline? Risker (talk) 11:10, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Risker: we don't get a lot of interface change requests (see the history on User:AnomieBOT/IPERTable) and that bot took care of the most frequent change (empowering .json updates to geonotices to all admins). But certainly something that any of our admins could help with. — xaosfluxTalk11:17, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, probably part of the reason is that the people most likely to want changes are admins, and they'll just not bother. There are a couple of pages that I've known need to be revised/updated; I would have done them myself before IA, since this is clean-up, but to be honest not even I can be bothered having to make edit requests. Risker (talk) 11:38, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let's hold off on that for now, but thanks for the thought. Perhaps when things stabilize in the future, if I'm still around. Risker (talk) 11:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ClubOranje comments
While the sentiment is appreciated, I'm closing this before things get out of hand. Primefac (talk)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have no admin bit to remove having never felt the need to run, but had I the tools I would be joining those above. I've had little interaction outside the mundane with any admin over the years but I see names here that I have some respect for in light of their administrative (and in some cases) bureaucratic contributions. Regardless of any opinion on the Framgate saga, the integrity demonstrated by them is worthy of respect and support. ClubOranjeT12:40, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi ClubOranje, thank you for expressing your sympathy. I've renamed the section so other bureaucrats don't start trying to find your admin bit and get confused. Maxim(talk)13:35, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Desysop request (Floq)
I am resigning my adminship to protest the contempt the WMF organization and CEO have for WP's volunteers. I acknowledge I'm doing it under a cloud, so regardless of the result of the ArbCom case, I cannot ask for it back later. BN is probably not the place for a longer manifesto, so I'll post that at my talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thank you for your service. It's a shame we're losing so many good admins over this but I completely understand. 28bytes (talk) 17:44, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
