The relevant matters that can be addressed here have been. Given ArbComm block of one editor, further discussion about this matter likely needs to be done there. If there is further admin non/action review needed, a new thread would be helpful. StarMississippi 15:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm looking for an independent review of my actions and those of Fram, in relation to Murder of Susana Morales (later moved to Draft:Murder of Susana Morales and subsequently deleted). The article was created yesterday, and subsequently tagged as WP:G10 (attack page) by Fram. I looked at the article, and in my opinion it did not meet the strict requirements of G10, namely that it was not "intended purely to harass or intimidate a person", nor unsourced. Fram re-tagged it [1], which was reverted again by Bbb23. Fram left a query on my talk page asking why I asked declined the speedy, and I gave my reasons. At this point I had become busy with work, so did not have time to investigate further. Fram refused to accept my answers, and kept badgering me, finally calling my actions "shit" [2], when I pointed out that he could have removed the offending material from the article rather than retagging it.
This morning, in response to a query on his own talk page, he accused me of gaslighting[3]. I have asked him to redact that comment, which I consider to be a personal attack, but so far he has refused to do so.
The article was ~700 words, ~550 words are about the suspect. ~365 words are under the heading Perpetrator with a criminal infobox listing the suspect as having committed the crimes. It wasn't a few instances where [you] forgot to specify that it was alleged, it was almost every single case. Again, read WP:BLP, which states Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing. We don't move it to draft space to clean it up, we remove it immediately. These violations are egregious, which is why I warned you. When 80% of an article is egregious BLP violations and BLPCRIME violations targeting a living person who is not a public figure, that is an attack article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, that was written in response to the article creator, and the warning was to the author, not VoC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
inUser talk:Voice of Clam#Murder of Susana Morales, they gave as their defense on why they reinstated the BLP violations: "I was too busy at the time. You were quite capable of removing the violations yourself." I had removed the violations, Voice of Clam reinstated them, so I consider this statement gaslighting, and I don't see how this description of their behaviour is a personal attack. Some scrutiny of the reinstatements of the severe BLP violations by Voice of Clam and Bbb23, and the block threats by Bbb23 and Deepfriedokra while completely disregarding our BLP policy (and its exemption for edit warring), seems warranted now that we are here anyway. Fram (talk) 16:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any article describing an unconvicted living individual as a murderer is as unequivocal a violation of WP:BLP policy as could possibly be imagined. Arguing the toss over exactly how this gross violation of policy should have been removed from sight (as WP:BLP policy absolutely demands) seems to me to be little more than pointless Wikilawyering. How about people getting back to doing something more useful, like finding better ways to stop such dross from getting into Wikipedia in the first place? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with SFR and ATG. Blatant BLP violations such as this should be deleted on sight, that's more important than the minutiae of which speedy deletion category should be applied. Reinserting the text, which accuses someone of a crime in Wikivoice despite there being no conviction, back into the page is definitely not the answer. — Amakuru (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of little superscripted numbers in brackets don't mean that an article is sourced, and certainly not "well sourced" as you claimed in your edit summary. Three quarters of that article stated various accusations against a living person - mostly unrelated to the crime that was the article's purported subject - as fact, when the supposed sources did nothing of the sort. —Cryptic 16:15, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I saw the after-the-fact discussion on SFR's talk page yesterday, and thought:
While I disagree with VoC, and think the article should have been deleted, I can see how they might have thought it didn't meet the letter of G10. So not entirely unreasonable. However, if they were going to deal with it and not delete it, they should have removed 2/3 of the article, revdel'd that, and moved it to draft space. If they didn't have time for that, they probably should have left it for another admin.
We have a hard time dealing with high benefit/high cost editors like Fram. I'm not sure just looking at a benefit/cost ratio is enough, ling term. But in a case like this, where Fram is right on the important underlying BLP issue, it's going to be hard to do anything about their being a dick so often. The most important thing here is that the article was a BLP nightmare; I can't imagine anyone sanctioning Fram in this particular case. If it helps any, Fram's use of the word "gaslighting" was incorrect. But so many people misuse that word...
How would you describe someone stating "you could have done X" when they know damn well you have done X and they are the one that has undone it? It sure feels like the kind of psychological manipulation and distortion described by "gaslighting", though a one-off and not a pattern. Fram (talk) 16:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Part of the problem is that out of my whole comment, this is what you choose to dispute.) Gaslightling means purposefully trying to get someone to doubt their own sanity. VoC obviously meant "you could have deleted the BLP problems without blanking the whole rest of the article". Only a fool would think they were actually trying to trick you into thinking maybe you hadn't blanked the whole thing with your {{db}}. You're not a fool. Therefore, you don't actually think you were being gaslit. You just thought the accusation sounded cool. When you claim this feels like "psychological manipulation" you are intentionally lying. You should stop that. It's beneath you. Floquenbeam (talk) 18:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or, with a sprinkle of AGF, possibly Fram either misunderstood the definition of gaslighting or interpreted the conversation differently than you did. My telepathic senses are on the fritz today, so I guess I can't tell what Fram was thinking about at the time. Must be allergies. From every encounter I've had with Fram, he tries to do the right thing but can be rude while doing it. Intentionally lying about what he was thinking is not something I've seen; usually it's the opposite and we get more of the raw, unfiltered Fram than is necessary. The WordsmithTalk to me 19:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hate getting dragged into these things, but I don't have the self-control to let someone be wrong on the internet, especially when I think I'm being misread. If you re-read what I said, I'm not saying he lied when he used the term gaslighting. As you and I have now both said, that's a commonly misused term. But in his reply to me, Fram doubled down and specifically claimed he felt he was being "psychologically manipulated." Come on; that's bullshit. I will do my best to let this go now. -Floquenbeam (talk) 19:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article text and sourcing are pretty severe BLP violations. The wording of G10 is very specific, and inflexible enough that it probably doesn't apply to this case. I still would have opted for summary deletion, but changed the rationale to cite WP:BLPDEL instead of G10. BLPDEL unquestionably applies to that article, since every version of the history is a severe BLP violation and repairing it would be impossible without rewriting the article from scratch. I also would have taken a look at the author to see if there was any disciplinary action that needed to be taken (it looks like he hasn't been notified about WP:NEWBLPBAN so I'll go take care of that). As usual, Fram can be prickly but he's not wrong. The WordsmithTalk to me 16:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like SFR took care of the DS notification already. The WordsmithTalk to me 16:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
G10 should just be expanded to cover BLPDEL situations since it's effectively the same thing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's already there. It's the text of the criterion on WP:CSD that's controlling, not the short one-line summary that appears there or in the dropdown menu. It starts Main page: Wikipedia:Attack page ¶ Examples of "attack pages" may include: ... and leaves the non-example specifics to be defined in WP:Attack page, which states in its first line or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced. Incorporating these situations is almost the entire reason we have a separate G10 rather than leaving it as a variant of G3 and relying on WP:Vandalism#Page creation, illegitimate's articles written to disparage the subject. —Cryptic 16:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Textbook WP:BLPCRIME violation, deletion was the right outcome. —Kusma (talk) 16:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think VOC and BBB got too focused on speedy deletion procedure and paid too little attention to how their actions restored a bunch of BLP vio to mainspace. I'd love to see them acknowledge those moves as errors. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The first part of what you say is right as far as I'm concerned. Usually, when I decline a speedy tag because it has already been declined I just remove the tag, but because of the nature of G10 (blanking the article "as a courtesy"), if I'd just removed the tag, the article would have been blank. The only "error" I'll acknowledge is I didn't do the work to figure out that the article was a BLP violation because you'd have to go through it to reach that conclusion. If I had it to do all over again, I would have done nothing because the whole thing is too messy for me.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Deepfriedokra Had the CSD not been declined twice, I'd've deleted the thing. I saw it had been declined twice and my brain locked up. I could not act. Deleting it would have been the least bad choice, and I should have deleted it.
To@Fram: I offer my sincere apologies for the perceived threat. That was not my intent. I apologize for my ill-chosen words and their effect.
To@Voice of Clam: If I cannot bring myself to honor a CSD tag, I leave it alone. I leave it to be reviewed by an admin less squeamish than I or with clearer perception than I have at that moment. It is regrettable that such content was restored.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, apologies accepted. Fram (talk) 07:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Question for Bbb23. Hi Bbb23. Did you suggest that Fram be blocked for edit-warring, rather than removing egregious BLP violations. ——Serial Number 54129 17:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that was a weird discussion on my Talk page. I responded to Dfo (the OP at my Talk page) who noted that Fram had tagged the page yet again, and my comment was "Block Fram?". It was then Dfo who talked about edit-warring. If I had blocked Fram, which, btw, I did not do and would not have done, it would not have been for edit-warring. I've answered your question, even though it was pretty loaded.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My dear fellow—! In an emergency, I must marry civility to bluntness if at the expense of neutrality. But thank you for giving me what I'm accepting as a straight answer :) ——Serial Number 54129 19:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well that wasn't Wikipedia's finest moment. VOC's edit restoring poorly-substantiated accusations (1) shouldn't have happened and (2) doesn't amount to an understandable mistake. Never edit BLPs in a hurry. And, once again, we see that when a sysop's behaviour falls below Fram's standards for sysops, Fram goes properly berserk.—S MarshallT/C 08:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have a very low threshold for berserkness then. I didn't start any of the talk page discussions (edited:except for the very first one at VoC's talk page) or AN discussion about this, I didn't start talking about blocking (others wanted me blocked for, well, no idea what for, apparently not for edit warring), I didn't ask for sanctions. I said about one statement that it was gaslighting, which the editor and one admin disagreed with. That admin said I was lying, which I disagree with. Please keep your claims about Fram going berserk for when I actually go berserk. Fram (talk) 08:58, 6 June 2024 (UTC) (edited as my claim was incorrect. Fram (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2024 (UTC) )[reply]
I saw this request after it had been declined by VoC and Bbb and decided that I didn't have the time that day to deal with the aftermath of any action I might take (which I think subsequent actions have proven right). For me there is no question that there were serious BLP violations in this article which needed to be remedied. Where I admit to some surprise is the consensus here that G10 was the right way handling it. G10 clearly allows for deletion for BLP violations, but my reading is that it encourages more consideration of alternatives including revdel and a non-speedy deletion method (although in most cases a deletion discussion should be initiated instead. While there was no BLP compliant version to revert to (which is what would have made revdel the easy answer), I'd have likely removed the perpetrator section, removed the alleged perpetrator's name and revdelled, given that the topic seems notable, had reasonable sourcing and was correctly titled about the victim rather than the alleged perpetrator. I think SFR's decision to do G10 instead of this was reasonable, but I also don't think VoC was wrong to say "not G10 eligible" if there had been firmer/clearer acknowledgement of the BLP violations that were present and would need to be fixed. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that it wasn't just one section, from my reading it seemed like there were severe BLP violations spread throughout the entire text, especially with things presented as fact in wikivoice that sources only raised as possibilities. It would be impossible to remedy the BLP violations with anything short of rewriting from scratch. At that point, the simplest solution is to just delete the entire thing and allow a new BLP-compliant article to be written. The WordsmithTalk to me 17:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was the entire page (which is whythere was no BLP compliant version to revert to), and while it's generally the case that not everyone is 100% right or 100% wrong, I think this discussion is about as close to those odds as we'll see. The bottom line is: VoC came here and asked two questions. The answer to the first is a prominent "No, it tended towards the not reasonable, very sorry", and as to the second, there is clearly no agreement that there was anything disruptive in Fram's actions and comments at all. I think it's fair to say that had there been, the odds on his not being blocked by now are exceedingly slender. ——Serial Number 54129 15:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a postscript to this discussion, the article creator, Christophervincent01, has now been Arbcom-blocked. There had been an attempt two hours before to raise concerns here about the editor's user page; removed three times as aspersions (although evidence was cited, the user page), and the reporting account, Gomez Buck, is now blocked as NOTHERE. The account is likely a throwaway; this response could be taken as an admission. And the points had been raised off-wiki. However, Arbcom believes there is sufficient concern about Christophervincent01 to swiftly block him incommunicado. By blocking a whistleblower who sounded a valid alert (Arbcom may of course have had other grounds for blocking Christophervincent01 than those raised by Gomez Buck), we discourage others who may have valid concerns; IMO including those that aren't throwaway accounts. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that account was blocked by Bbb23, who apparently wasn´t satisfied with restoring BLP violations which warranted a G10 deletion and threatening to block me for still undisclosed reasons when I reverted them, but decided to continue making the wrong decisions in this case by blocking the whistleblower instead of the now Arbcom blocked account. Perhaps they checkusered them as well? Fram (talk) 09:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keeping BLP violations out of mainspace is more important than the intricacies of CSD policy, just like the troll pretending to openly support ISIS is more of a threat than someone who violates socking policy by creating a new account to report said troll. Please take on board these lessons about priorities. People are more important than procedures. (And Jeske, it's not an "aspersion" if it has evidence, you are misusing that word.) Also, if you screwed up the handling of one part of a debacle, maybe don't touch the other parts of the debacle, just step away and leave it for somebody else. Maybe just step back, watch and learn for a while, instead of trying to be the first on the scene with a mop. Levivich (talk) 15:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Arbcom might take a broader view of events and parties' involvement than is possible in the kettle of an admin noticeboard. I'm sure everyone would benefit from a level-headed, careful, select appreciation of evidence from a disinterested perspective of distance and disinterest. ——Serial Number 54129 18:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
After placing a request to be unblocked on my user page, I was instructed by User:331dot to start a community discussion by going to WP:AN and request its removal.
I acknowledge my past involvement in problematic COI editing.
I now believe in regaining trust and commit to ceasing any further problematic COI editing.
Since my partial block, I have authored 20 new articles, all of which have been reviewed and accepted by my peers for inclusion in the main article space.
I have also contributed to 28 articles through the Edit Request process since my block.
Upon unblocking, my intention is to contribute to Wikipedia by assisting with the backlog of AfC and edit requests.
My dedication lies in making Wikipedia the best encyclopedia globally.
@Greghenderson2006, you specify problematic COI editing: what type of COI editing do you consider to not be problematic? Schazjmd(talk) 17:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Schazjmd, any COI editing would be problematic per WP:COI. This request is based on my recent pldege to refrain from any further COI editing, as well as on the recent articles and upates I have made. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I made a mistake and I am fully committed to upholding my pledge this time. I have taken this expereince as a learning opputnity and am determined to demonstrate conistency moving forward. The recent articles I have written provide evidence of my committemnt. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's what you said last time too! And you have had the following COI related declaration and commitment on your userpage for a long time:
I have a conflict of interest and paid-contribution disclosures in some of my Wikipedia articles. I intend to follow best practices by asking for help, sticking to neutral language, and having other editors review my work.
If those previous commitments weren't upheld, I am not sure why we should just take your word for it this time instead of sustaining the pblock to ensure that all your edits to articlespace are in fact reviewed. Abecedare (talk) 18:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concern given the past commitments that were not fully upheld. However, I am asking for another chance now to prove my dedication to Wikipedia's standards. I am committed to making contributions and am open to having my edits monitored. Please allow me this opportunity to demonstrate my commitment and rebuild your trust. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As proposer of the p-block being discussed here, I will take no position as to this request. I will just say that I share @Abecedare's concerns about prior broken promises. You note that Since my partial block, I have authored 20 new articles, all of which have been reviewed and accepted by my peers for inclusion in the main article space. but this been declined as has this one. Why do you feel that's the case? Why didn't you note them above? StarMississippi 03:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Draft:Coyote station has been resubmitted after adjusting the lead to better align with the citations. I believe a block is unwarranted, as the text in the first draft was not fully aligned with the referenced source at the time. Additionally, the Draft:Lewis Josselyn draft has been resubmitted after addressing notability issues. I feel confident that I have not broken any promises in this process. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I confess I'm bewildered by the statement I believe a block is unwarranted, as the text in the first draft was not fully aligned with the referenced source at the time. "the text in the first draft was not fully aligned with the referenced source at the time" is a euphemism that means "the sources did not support the information in the article". How is that a reason for the block being unwarrranted? Including claims that weren't supported by the cited sources was one of the reasons for the block! --bonadeacontributionstalk 09:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've written 20 articles on the aforementioned sites, which have been accepted by my peers. However, there have been instances where some articles, like Draft:Coyote Station, that were declined. I always correct the issues and resubmitted them. This part of any review process. It's important to note that the rejection of certain drafts for specific reasons shouldn't be grounds for blocking someone who is helping to expand the scope of Wikipedia. I have authored over 400 articles and enjoy the research/writing aspect. This block should be lifted because I no longer have any conflict of interest with articles I have written or edited since my block. Greg Henderson (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am opposed to any unblock. I agree with the concerns raised above by Abecedare; a significant part of Greg's undertaking above is word for word the same as the last time, and the rest of it is substantially the same in character. Not only has Greg previously made the same promise and broken it, but he also has an extensive history of making misleading statements and equivocations, many of which it is difficult to believe were not disingenuous. We have had "I haven't done X", and then, when someone points out a clear case of his doing X, "Oh, when I said I haven't done X, I meant I haven't done Y". We have had statements along the lines of "I made a mistake" for things which are difficult to see as mistakes. We have had "I have authored 20 new articles, all of which have been reviewed and accepted by my peers for inclusion in the main article space", without mentioning the number of drafts which have not been accepted; of course all the articles created at AfC have been accepted, as otherwise they wouldn't be articles, but did Greg honestly not intend to give the impression that all of the drafts he had created had been accepted as articles? And so it goes on... all documented in his talk page history, at AN/I, etc. To be absolutely blunt, I think Greg's history has shown time and time again that his word cannot be trusted, and I see no reason to assume that it will be any different this time. He has cried "Wolf" too often. JBW (talk) 09:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm opposed. I believe in third chances, but the period after the second chance should be measured in years, not months. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your perspective and I am sorry you feel this way. I believe I have demonstrated my ability to write and edit articles effectively. The block has been difficult for me, and I feel it hinders my potential to contribute positively. Please see the articles I have written since I have been blocked, e.g. Olvida Peñas, Kirk Creek Campground, and Rhoades Ranch. If Wikipedia aims to foster a collaborative environment, please reconsidering such punitive measures for individuals who have shown they can contribute. I encourage you to reconsider this block and provide another opportunity for me to prove my commitment to this community. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid there may be another issue as well – I just declined a draft from Greghenderson2006 which has some very close paraphrasing of at least one source. See my comment on the draft. I thought I'd do a spot check of earlier page creations, and the first one I looked at was Messina Orchard (accepted in AfC in March) where the "Design" sub-section is copied with very minor changes from pages 5 and 7 of this source. No shade falls on the AfC reviewer, because this kind of thing can be hard to spot if you are not looking for it. I don't know if Greghenderson2006 has had previous cautions/warnings about close paraphrasing, but it's definitely something he needs to start paying attention to, as well. --bonadeacontributionstalk 20:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the drafts using Earwig's Copyvio Detector tool. They fall within 10-20%, which means vilolation is unlikely. Greg Henderson (talk) 20:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Earwig's tool doesn't detect close paraphrasing! I don't understand why anybody would use that tool on their own texts at all, to be honest. It seems like using it has tricked you into thinking that it's fine to simply change some words from a source while keeping the order of information, structure and other aspects of the text in the sources. It may or may not be a copyvio problem (my sense is that it is, certainly in the draft I linked above) but it is definitely plagiarism. Do yourself a favour and read WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASING carefully, and keep in mind that edits like this one do not do anything to resolve an issue with plagiarism or with copyright. --bonadeacontributionstalk 09:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if Greghenderson2006 has had previous cautions/warnings about close paraphrasing, but it's definitely something he needs to start paying attention to, as well. CV is among the issues Greg has challenges with including leading up to the p-block: User_talk:Greghenderson2006/Archive_19StarMississippi 00:51, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will take no position on the unblock request, but will say that I don't think we have even scratched the surface of the close paraphrasing issue in most (if not all) of the many drafts Greg has been creating. See Talk:Pomeroy Green for my concerns about just one of these articles, where the initial comments (made after this discussion) suggest a continued lack of understanding of the issue. Melcous (talk) 02:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm quite unfamiliar with the full background behind Greg's block, but I think he should be allowed to make minor changes to articles without edit requests, as seen in Talk:Joseph Eichler. The are 33 pending requests in the partial block queue, the majority of which appear to be minor and uncontroversial. NotAGenious (talk) 14:00, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think editing might be a good idea, but after having read the background behind the previous problems brought to AN/I, I would be staunchly opposed to any creation of pages without heavy review. EggRoll97(talk) 02:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wikipedia:Blocking policy, "A user may be unblocked earlier if the user agrees to desist and appears to have learned from the matter." I agree to desist and have learned from my WP:PBLOCK. Since my block I have created 23 articles that have been peer-reviewed and edited, via edit requests, 31 articles. There are 10 drafts waiting for review. I have created 437 article pages since my first edit in 2007. My appeal to a partial block should be granted based on the proportionality of the infraction, mitigating circumstances, my commitment to compliance, and my history of positive contributions. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Greghenderson2006 you have shown every indication why you believe you should be unblocked, but none to indicate that you've learned from any of the prior blocks or the declines of your drafts or how the project will benefit from you being unblocked. Using AfC is not a barrier to improving the encyclopedia and with your repeat copyright issues I strongly feel you should not be reviewing others' drafts. Also, AfC is not peer review. StarMississippi 02:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not true! I have learned from my prior blocks. Look at the success I've made. Try to understand that I am volunteering my time to write these articles and they have been reviewed by peer Wikipedians. Please try to understand that this is a simple unblock request for a seasoned editor that has written over 400 articles! I am making a valuable contribution to Wikipeida that has sbeen upported and congratulated over-and-over again by other editors. Not sure why you want to continue to block someone that has contributed so much. Greg Henderson (talk) 02:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unblock: Besides the aforementioned issues, there are problems with basic factual accuracy. Greg submitted Sargent station to AfC with easily falsified claims about when the station was closed, despite that I explained that in detail when he asked me for feedback. That submission had a number of other basic issues: an adjacent stations template for a service that never stopped there, an irrelevant "see also" link, navboxes unrelated to the article content, an empty authority control box, and an incorrect category (Repurposed railway stations in the United States). I see similar issues at Draft:Coyote station, including citations simply being placed at the end of the paragraph rather than with the information they support. While these would all be forgivable for new editors, they show an alarming lack of attention for someone with 22k edits. Greg's associated editing on Commons and Wikidata shows similar basic issues such as creating a Wikidata item with a completely false description, uploading an image with an incorrect public domain claim, and creating a Commons category without bothering to properly categorize it. All of this represents substantial work for other editors to clean up, and unblocking would simply create more. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are being to harsh. The wikidata if fine Coyote station and has a description: "former train station in Coyote, California, US." The Commons Category is also fine: Commons Category here. I've contacted the holder of the image and they have released the image with a copyright date of 1912, that is in public domain. This is article represents a historical train station, which was one of the 1st in the county. Please look at the fact that the article was created with citations to support the move to Coyote, California to to History Park at Kelley Park in San José, California. This is no reason to block a senior editor. Greg Henderson (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not acceptable and I see the user has already been warned on their talk page by JBW. By the way, you need to notify that user that you have reported them here — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:13, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have blocked them for 31 hours after they decided to double down on their personal attacks. —Ingenuity (t • c) 18:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well dammit, I had already spent several hours earlier "pre-writing" an SPI report and just waiting for the next disruption from them to hit that submit button. Anyways, thanks for that!
The sad part here for me is that this is a user capable of making very good-quality, constructive contributions, for example expanding articles and creating them. Their edits aren't destructive or made in bad-faith. They have the ability to understand all the little details of a subject and portray them, a lot better than I do. This is the reason why I've been reluctant to file an SPI report straight from the start. Artem S. Tashkinov and I have both agreed that we shall not blanket revert/delete every single edit that they make. Though I should say from now on, that I will be less tolerant of this editor's misconduct, i.e. edit wars and attacks on talk pages, after seeing what broke out on that List of AMD Ryzen processors talk page.
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By the way, NinjaRobotPirate, do you have any clue who this IP editor might be? I've noticed some striking behavioural similarities between it and Xselant socks, e.g. changing HTML tags for templates (diff), obsessing over spacing in source code (diff), obsession of things "taking up too much space" in product list tables (diff), and pointless bypassing of redirect links (diff1, diff2). Of course, that IP address isn't the only IP address that I've been seeing those kind of edits from, in fact I've counted up dozens of IP addresses in a userpage spread over at least three different IP ranges, and that list isn't complete or updated since late March either.
I used to think that this was User:Xselant using open proxies to continue editing computer hardware articles but that he changed up his habits to try and avoid easy detection. But upon another closer look, I've seen numerous significant differences (e.g. exclusively focussed on computer topics, use of the VisualEditor, no adding/reordering citation parameters in a very specific order, untidy infobox code) to make me think that this isn't actually Xselant himself, but rather, either: a. a meatpuppet of Xselant, performing some edits on his behalf, or b. a different person who just happens to share several of Xselant's key editing traits.
Note that I'm not requesting any action here (e.g. blocks, or page protections), as thankfully the editing spree from that IP editor seems to be over now, but I'm just wondering who it could be, given that you seem familiar with Xselant's behaviour. — AP 499D25(talk) 05:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Every time I see him banned I get really sad and upset because the guy is really knowledgeable and smart, but he just happens to have very strong opinions and just refuses to cooperate, behave, be polite and get his ideas across without insulting others. I don't want him to be banned, but it would be great if he just gave up editing certain classes of articles. Artem S. Tashkinov (talk) 09:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are quite a few serial sockpuppeteers like that I can think of - not to mention indeffed editors who haven't evaded their blocks - very knowledgeable, very good writers, but unwilling or (or unable) to abide by our policies on edit warring, NPA, copyvio or whatever. It's a shame, but what can you do? If someone is genuinely willing to try to reform themselves there is the standard offer; if they just ignore their blocks and create socks, they're going to get blocked each time they're discovered. GirthSummit (blether) 09:42, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I would expect an Algerian IP editor who speaks fluent English and never edits topics about Algeria to be someone using proxies. However, there's no reason someone from a developing country can't be interested in a generic topic like semiconductors. If I'm not sure, I usually keep an eye on their edits and look for more compelling evidence. Most sock puppeteers are stuck in their ways. If they could change, they'd have probably done so before they got indefinitely blocked. So, it's only a matter of time before they do something incredibly obvious. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's indeed the conclusion that I've pretty much come to. — AP 499D25(talk) 02:20, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Out of the blue harassment and allegations for sockpuppetry and alleged personal attack[edit]
Out of the blue, a user named User:48JCL filed a useless claim against me for sockpuppetry, reason he found edits of some users which I do not know of matches with me and claims that I indulged in vote stacking. I responded I do not negotiate with users with harassing intentions or misleading claim (that has been closed due to incorrect filing). Even if there are articles which are not meeting the WP guidelines are deleted and I agree on those as they were not meeting the guidelines. I have contributed to articles and I need no approval from a user who falsely claim something irrelevant. Thank you. SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 21:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe @48JCL will tell us how they're aware of 2016 actions despite not having an account until eight years later. StarMississippi 15:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, why do you not respond to your other warnings? You didn’t even add a topic saying that I have been mentioned at ANI. Have proper etiquette next time you do this.
User:48JCL - The SPI investigation found there was insufficient evidence to support your accusations - repeating your accusations of sockpuppetry without more evidence can be seen as a personal attack. Please do not do that as it isn't helpful to anyone.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:23, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will report it again if he continues to defame or harass me as he is still accusing for something irrelevant, seems the user is jealous of not being an Admin. Anyways thanks for the support and will continue to do the contributions as usual. Peace out. ✌️ SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 14:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
48JCL, loads of IPs edit, and loads of people edit Indian film articles. Far too many of each for it to be evidence of sockpuppetry. D'SuperHero, you seem to be casting aspersions with "seems the user is jealous of not being an Admin". Phil Bridger (talk) 17:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Admins, this is going too far. Need attention for this as this is something ridiculous now. Now another user accuses me of sockpuppetry. Admins, I need to get this reviewed. I stand firm on my edits and I do not indulge in sockpuppetry. I need a proper review on users who are (defaming and personal attacking) using fake accusations. SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 21:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Phil isn't accusing you of sock puppetry. However your statement on admin jealousy is indeed unneeded and unwanted. – robertsky (talk) 11:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wielding the mop is also not something to be jealous of! Hey man im josh (talk) 12:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the SPI conclusion: one edit by an IP eight years ago which was bizarrely signed by a blocked (but not blocked at the time) user is unusual, but there is no evidence whatsoever that D'Superhero made that edit. The allegation is absurd. 48JCL, please drop this now. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Organizations designated as hate groups by Southern Poverty Law Center[edit]
I have requested this be deleted G10 several hours ago; no action has been taken on this yet. This is not an idle request, since as documented at Family Research Council#2012 shooting the SPLC designation was used by an emotionally disturbed individual to target that specific organization for an attempted mass shooting. Despite my noting this in my edit summary, the category has been reverted back onto Family Research Council by an editor other than the one who started the category and began by categorizing gender and sexuality groups into it. Since this is a contentious topic, I'm assuming 1RR applies and requesting that an administrator not involved in the gender & sexuality area disposition the G10 tagging and designate a single space (CfD?) for discussion of this category if it is determined to not be speedyable. Jclemens (talk) 23:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there's sourcing for it, this seems like a perfectly reasonable category to me. Loki (talk) 23:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Family Research Council is a well known hate group, regardless of SPLC designation. I don't see why outside events would cause us to delete a meaningful category. SilverserenC 23:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If anything, my only objection to this category is that the name is way too long. I'd call it "SPLC hate groups". Loki (talk) 00:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit confused. Seems you are saying there is a 1RR vio, a disagreement with one SPLC categorization, and the SPLC category in general. Why would we remove an entire category based on this? (I should add that I was about to make the same revert but was cooking dinner and had no time for this.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)\[reply]
I didn't say there was, I said since this was a known contentious topic, I was assuming there was or might be. Happy to be wrong, always wanting to be more circumspect than required in CT areas. Jclemens (talk) 01:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you really using a 2011 deletion discussion as a G4 argument? Looks like we need a review of that at this point, over a decade later. And the 2023 CfD with 2 people involved (Jclemens being one of them, I notice) is even more useless. SilverserenC 00:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Extraordinary Writ's link, the last CfD was in July, 2023. Similarly named categories appear to have been deleted by consensus five times from 2010-2023. Jclemens (talk) 01:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The July 2023 CfD had three participants, one of which was you. That's not a consensus, and honestly should have gone to deletion review immediately. Loki (talk) 05:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Three participants is not unusual attendance for a CfD, and there is no reason to DRV a unanimous discussion. Literally no one objected. More significantly, it was in line with past decisions, and as Levivich points out below, the argument against this as a category are stronger now than they were during previous discussions, given how recent SPLC issues have tarnished its reputation. Jclemens (talk) 06:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome to start a DRV, either to review my deletion or to request recreation. But the letter of G4 certainly applies, and while the 2011 (and 2014) CfDs are old, the underlying guidelines (WP:NONDEF, WP:OPINIONCAT, etc.) haven't really changed. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I knew there was a previous discussion, but couldn't find it. I stand by my characterization of the topic as G10 based on the 2012 shooting: if it has a history of getting someone shot, such a connection clearly doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Jclemens (talk) 00:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree that WP:G10 applies here, and I think there should be broader discussion of this before it's used to override WP:NOTCENSORED. jlwoodwa (talk) 04:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The deleting admin didn't find G10 compelling. I still maintain that some sort of "this is too dangerous to not be deleted" rationale is, since people have almost died based on such categorizations being applied to groups including the FRC. Just one more instance to add to the list of times where my interpretation of Wikipedia Policies & Guidelines differs from someone else's... Jclemens (talk) 06:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given that, while we generally consider the assessment of groups like the SPLC or ADL for hate groups, they have been considered wrong before (exceptional cases but still there), and while the cat name does make the association out of Wikivoice, it's just enough of a contentious aspect that we shouldn't use the category system for this. A standard list format would be fine since sourcing and additional notes can be applied. Masem (t) 01:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. (A separate question that came to mind, but I think we're okay, is if such a list may be a copyright issue, but since they're presenting it as factual, rather than something like a subjective critic's film list, that should be okay). — Masem (t) 12:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bizarre reasoning at the top. (You know what's led to more violence than lists of hate groups? ...Hate groups. Shall we delete the articles, too?). To the point, though, if based on a 13-year-old precedent I figure it probably should've gone to CfD rather than speedy, but I guess it could just as easily go to CfD for undeletion? — Rhododendritestalk \\ 01:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
G4 clearly does apply here. This isn't a "13-year-old precedent" given that it was re-verified as recently as last July, and even if it were it wouldn't matter as G4 has no age limit. * Pppery *it has begun... 02:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was "re-verified" in a Speedy Deletion discussion with three participants, one of which is the OP. Loki (talk) 05:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's no chance this category would survive a CfD because, as Writ points out, it's an obvious failure of WP:OPINIONCAT and WP:CATDEF. SPLC's designation of a group as a hate group is just the opinion of SPLC, and being an SPLC-designated hate group is not a defining characteristic of any group. SPLC's reputation is even worse today than it was 13 years ago. SPLC is not the standard-bearer of hate group designation anymore. See, e.g.: [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Next time WP:SPLC is reviewed at RSN, it'll probably be downgraded to yellow. So whether it's G10 or G4 or CfD or DRV, it's gonna be a clear delete outcome. Levivich (talk) 06:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, this category should not have been speedy deleted. Speedy deletion is limited to obvious-to-anyone uncontroversial deletions, where there is no conceivable good-faith argument against deletion. The simple fact of editors adding the category to pages evidently in good faith is strong evidence that deletion was not uncontroversial, thus none of the speedy criteria can apply. This should have gone to CfD at the moment it was clear that some editors endorsed the category, to establish consensus for its deletion, which we're now trying to do here, after the fait accompli deletion and on the wrong page. I'm not going to restore it just to argue about deleting it again, but things like this keep happening in spite of widely-consensual policies saying they shouldn't. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As Extraordinary Writ has said, CfD or DRV are both reasonable places for that discussion. G4 is, of all the CSD categories, the one where your reasoning least applies: Once there has been a discussed consensus to delete, an identical page having any title should be deleted once identified as such. Categories are more susceptible than articles or other pages to G4, because unlike articles it's essentially impossible to start a category that's not substantially identical, except for title, to the previously deleted category. Jclemens (talk) 15:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus for its deletion has been established. There's no controversy to be had because there are no views to be had. An observation that two things are the same when they are the same and everyone can also observe that they are the same (Category:Organizations designated as hate groups by Southern Poverty Law Center = Category:Organizations designated as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center) is not a viewpoint, and a (hypothetical) failure to observe that the two same things are the same when everyone can observe that they are the same is not a viewpoint. The consensus can be changed by allowing recreation as a result of a deletion review. There's no need to go through this process for pages with content such as articles because creators are allowed to prove by virtue of boldly creating content that the established consensus to delete a thing is only a historical consensus that does not apply to another thing that they have created (and viewpoints can form around whether the content is sufficiently identical or not), but it's impossible to prove this for a category such as this one because any extant page under this name (with or without the definite article) is going to be the same thing. —Alalch E. 23:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a massive 52-page backlog at CAT:RD1 for redaction of alleged copyright infringements. There seems to be neglect, as none of the nominations are related by sharing a nominator or alleged poster of the infringing revisions. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Down to about a dozen. Could use extra eyes at Digital Archaeology (exhibition), which seems to have paragraphs taken from pretty much everywhere, but while I have a gut feeling that every paragraph is taken verbatim from elsewhere, I can't find them all. Primefac (talk) 15:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, you're right, almost all of the text in the "featured websites" section was copied verbatim from now-dead sites. Seems like a WP:TNT case to me; I've deleted the entire section now. —Ingenuity (t • c) 18:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it out-of-process to put hats on my sock?[edit]
Just now, I created User:JPyG (or, more accurately, I got Deadbeef to do it for me because of phab:T367025), because it is nice to have a testing account. Tonight I am going to test a notification template, but later I plan to use it for messing around with userscripts and CSS stuff due to my main account having a heavily customized interface. Anyway: what hats am I allowed to put on my sock? It would certainly be convenient to have templateeditor and extendedconfirmed, but this feels like the kind of thing that would be against some kind of rule. jp×g🗯️ 07:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not an issue, if you're careful to avoid tin foil hats; you don't want your sock to start pushing fringe POV's. BilledMammal (talk) 18:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ADMINSOCK seems to imply by omission that sub-admin rights are permitted, but that reasoning probably wouldn't hold up in court. jlwoodwa (talk) 08:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With no statement on the policy (for which I believe none exists, but I could be wrong), I would say that as long as it’s a) done with community consensus and b) done transparently, it’s indisputably not a problem IMO. A significant component of user rights is the relative trust they imply, and I don’t see why a transparent secondary account used for testing purposes would be an issue, unless they violated an explicit policy such as ADMINSOCK. FortunateSons (talk) 10:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's too common for admins to add a bunch of hats to a spare account, then forget about the account. One day it gets compromised and some hacker has TE with IPBE, that or someone else has to go around cleaning up. It's good practice to set an expiration date for your socks. -- zzuuzz(talk) 10:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a common enough practice from what I've seen. Some alt accounts of admins that were granted perms by themselves:
I personally don't see any issue with it, aside from perms being left on the inactive accounts too long. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended confirmed is fine to leave indefinitely IMO, for template editor is might be advisable to set to expire unless also using 2FA on the test account. Alpha3031 (t • c) 12:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In general, it's fine and do it yourself. Setting an expiry is a decent idea, mostly so you don't hat up an account that you eventually give up on and forget about that gets compromised in the future. — xaosfluxTalk 18:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Avoid EFM/EFH/IPBE unless you have a really good reason as well. And don't be worried if someone removes some flag during a routine inactive cleanup, missing that it is an alt - if you need it again its easy to turn back on. — xaosfluxTalk 18:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's no dispute, so no. —Alalch E. 22:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're misunderstanding Galobtter. This is the paragraph she's referencing:
In straightforward cases (e.g., blatant vandalism), the community has historically endorsed the obvious action of any administrator – even if involved – on the basis that any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion.
Oh right, thanks. —Alalch E. 07:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be fine under WP:TESTALT though it doesn't really mention hatting your socks. EggRoll97(talk) 22:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just pile on with the suggestion to time-limit these grants, at which point (especially if it's for testing purposes) there's really not much harm and probably no issue. Primefac (talk) 14:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Query If accounts are supposed to be accessed by one person, are rights are given to accounts or the people who run them? Would JPyG inherit all the rights given to JPxG? Svampesky (talk) 16:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, per Adminsock and the policies about legitimate uses of additional accounts, you generally don’t get all the rights. However, as admins are given a lot more trust, I (and others) seem to agree that sub-admin rights are often allowed. FortunateSons (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So to recap what's been said so far: I am allowed to be extended-confirmed, but I am totally forbidden to voice my agreement with the brilliant, handsome and wise user JPxG, even though he is right about everything...? Very sad if true. jp⑂g🗯️ 00:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You got your hats, be satisfied and return to the dresser drawer! You will be called when needed. jp×g🗯️ 00:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My ping error @TheTechie:. In my early days, my visible signature was "GB" but I figured out it was not a good idea as others did not know who that was, and even I had trouble searching for it. PS if an admin has a revdelled edit on their own pages, they will probably check what it was. In this case I would say oversight suppression is not warranted. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! Though I would tell people to hover over the names to see, I think it shows my username then. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/$ 23:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about people without mice? I can't hover on my phone. 12.75.41.67 (talk) 04:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a followup to the ANI request I made 4 days ago here. The archived discussion is here.
That ANI request was the second ANI request in this matter, and it resulted in a 30 day protection of the page San Diego ReaderbyUser:Daniel Case, if I recall correctly, because of multiple IP accounts making POV edits and "persisted disruptive behavior."
Six hours ago a third IP account posted on Talk:San Diego Reader casting WP:ASPERSIONS about "whoever" added the story to the page, going so far as to accuse that editor of being "convicted Antifa felons and/or their associates" and then going on to accuse that editor of exposing Wikipedia to a defamation lawsuit.
These aspersion come from three different IPS, but the aspersions cast are substantially similar to the ones in edit summaries here and here that were discussed on this page previously that led to the page being protected.
I request that the aspersions be permanently deleted from Facebook and that the IP account User talk:162.197.6.47 be banned in whatever way the administrators see fit. Kire1975 (talk) 09:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean, "deleted from Facebook"? Wikipedia has no control over Facebook. jlwoodwa (talk) 18:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kire1975 has posted some defamatory comments on the San Diego Reader page and used very questionable references from last year to back up his assertion. The two USA Today references that he provides deal with the patriot rally group as a whole, a crowd of more than 100 people. There may or may not been white supremacists among them. The USA today article does not give specifics about whom they are calling "white supremacist". However Kire1975 extrapolates from these comments in USA Today to brand the victims of crimes of the Antifa defendants as "white supremacist". I sat through the entire trial except for the opening statements. The defendants attorneys did not show that any of the dozen or so victims that the Antifa "fought with" were white supremacist. If they had been supremacists, the attorneys would have certainly brought that out as part of their defense. Actually, the Antifa members did not have mutual fights with any of the patriots, either. The victims were shown in the trial to have been attacked without provocation. Some of the victims were not even there for the patriot rally, but were passers by or there for other reasons, such as to take photos for news purposes. There was a police line and the Antifa group never got close enough to interact with the main body of the patriots. If Kire1975 wants to brand these individual victims as white "supremacists", he needs a more specific reference that shows at least some of these individuals were white supremacists. Otherwise, he is exposing Wikipedia to a potential defamation lawsuit. He needs to have a much more definite reference for these individuals. Because he thinks some white supremacists attended the rally, does not imply that those individuals who were assaulted and beaten by Antifa were supremacists. I suggest that all of these comments about the Antifa trial be deleted from the page.
Also suggest deleting any reference to the reporter who covered the Antifa prosecution and her real name. She has already been threatened. Showing her name puts her at risk. She has worked for years reporting on crime and using the same pen name. One of the Antifa defendants tried to have her banned from the court hearings, but the effort failed. She was allowed to attend the entire trial and to take photos. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I don't have anything to do with the other two IP addresses. I am not using them to post here. There is no self-interest here on my part. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 21:12, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked and tagged. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done @Thetechie@enwiki: Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
