Contents

Talk:Eden Golan

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. Restarting a debate that has already been settled constitutes disruptive editing, tendentious editing, and "asking the other parent", unless consensus changes.

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the relevant Wikipedia policy on recruitment of editors, as well as the neutral point of view policy. Disputes on Wikipedia are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Eden Golan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 45 days

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Asia Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject AsiaTemplate:WikiProject AsiaAsia articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article was created or improved during WikiProject Asia's "Asian 10,000 Challenge", which started in October 2016 and is still continuing. You can help! Biography: Musicians This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Low-importance). Eurovision Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Eurovision, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Eurovision-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EurovisionWikipedia:WikiProject EurovisionTemplate:WikiProject EurovisionEurovision articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Israel Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Categorization : Diffuse articles from Category:Companies of Israel. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Merge Nahal Rafiah (draft, heb) into Nahal as requested by Wikipedia authority Women in Music Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women in music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women in MusicWikipedia:WikiProject Women in MusicTemplate:WikiProject Women in MusicWomen in music articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Women in Red: #1day1woman (2024) This article was created or improved during the #1day1woman initiative hosted by the Women in Red project in 2024. The editor(s) involved may be new; please assume good faith regarding their contributions before making changes.Women in RedWikipedia:WikiProject Women in RedTemplate:WikiProject Women in RedWomen in Red articles Jewish Women Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish Women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish WomenWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish WomenTemplate:WikiProject Jewish WomenJewish Women articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Russia Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Per WP:BLP the infobox should not put forward a highly contentious claim while we are discussing it. Per that policy, I am removing it for now, and there needs to be a proper process of discussion here before it is added back - if it is. (I personally highly doubt it will remain, but that's for a discussion.) Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll further note that the issue of ambiguity of the "origin" parameter is well-known and a discussion has been started here about potentially changing it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jimbo Wales I've got no idea what's going on here and why this has become such a critical issue. There must be some sort of ulterior motive at play, but for the life of me, I can't imagine what it is. Why is it so critical for some that she be labelled as Russian Israeli and not just Israeli? If you find out, please enlighten me. MaskedSinger (talk) 15:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jimbo Wales also we could be stuck in a Terminator like loop here.

For instance, if you look at the article on 11 March, she's described as a Russian-Israeli singer. There's no source for that. So when the Eurovision was happening, journalists came to this article, saw she was described as Russian Israeli, described her as such in their article and John Connor was born. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered=or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Russian-Israeli singer to Latvian-Israeli singer.

Her father is Latvian, and not Russian, they only lived in Russia for a while before moving back to Israel. Making Eden a high likely holder of dual citizenship of Latvia and Israel.

Keeping in mind, if Eden is Russian and a carrier of dual Russian citizenship as mentioned from other edits, she wouldn’t be able to enter the EU, as there’s limitations on Russian passport holders or even as dual citizenship when it comes to entry into the EU.

Eden’s full family tree has been published on the Jews of Latvia page. ^[1] 2A03:EC00:B1A2:3F73:948E:8C68:DC74:3F9 (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eden explicitly stated in a recent interview with Mako.co.il that she is not Russian. It couldn't be more clear: "Some say I'm not Israeli enough and call me Russian, but I'm the most Israeli there is," She emphasized, "... there was always this part that 'I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli." [1] Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see any good reason to put her as Latvian, seeing only one of her parents is Latvian (her mother being Ukranian). We also cannot speculate on any dual citizenship page, especially not on a BLP page. It has already happened multiple times that a low quality source on her citizenship has been removed. Besides it is unclear (at least to me) if her dad has had the Latvian nationalty, or whether Latvian refers to his ethnic background.

The Facebook page does not seem to cite any sources, and random Facebook accounts are not reliable sources.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be very helpful if we can bring together all the sources - reliable sources in particular - relating to her nationality. We have a good source from her saying quite clearly that she is not Russian and does not identify as Russian. I think some sources casually call her Russian but those passing references probably are not good enough to contradict her own very specific and public claim otherwise. There's a fair amount of banter about her parents being from Latvia or Ukraine - but are there sources for that which would shed more light on the issue? Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've butted out from the discussion because at a certain point you get tired of reading seventy-squandillion comments per day from Twitter users brigaded to this page, on why everyone who edits this page is an agent of some foreign government or otherwise bigot, but I'll say Speederzzz has done a superb job of collating them in section 8 of this talk page. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 17:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think with the current restart of the debate and the end of eurovision it would be good for me to update the list of sources with more recent sources (which, considering the booing she received and the criticism the Israeli delegation has gotten for their conduct, I assume are plentiful).

I have an important meeting tomorrow, so I am unsure if I can update it then, but I think before the weekend I should be able to expand the current list to incorporate post-eurovision sources.

Would it be preferable to readers if I simply update my list, make a new one and reply to my old list or make a new section?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given the mess on the talk page (from twitter brigading, as noted) a new section might be advisable, with that updated list. Do you read Hebrew? I can look at Hebrew sources using Google translate, but it's hard to find them.

I think one relevant thing would be whether there are reliable sources regarding the nationality of her parents, which add a lot of information to the situation.

Here's an entirely different scenario - we used to refer to Hilaria Baldwin as Spanish-American and even said in the Infobox that she was born in Mallorca. And no wonder as many sources [2] [3] [4] said so. So, early press mentions calling Eden Golan "Russian-Israeli" don't necessarily determine the matter, especially she is herself quite clear that she is not Russian at all. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I sadly do not speak Hebrew, I used to be able to transliterate it, but that is a long time ago. If there is a hebrew speaker (and perhaps a russian speaker for the other side of the bar) who would be able to help that would be great.

My biggest fear about the whole situation is that perhaps some citogenesis is going on, as you seem to insinuate. I of course have no proof of that, although as a last resort I could try contacting some writers of "Russian-Israeli" articles to check. Been a bit hesitant to mention it in case it starts a whole new discussion and derails the talk page even more.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She has Russian citizenship according to the Times of Israel, Russia Today and Euronews. [5] [6] [7] This is a universally accepted fact, so why have you removed this without any sources to back up your claim that she doesn't? @Zohariko1234: Makeandtoss (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Makeandtoss I cited an interview for Ynet where she explicitly says she doesn't have Russian citizenship. Shouldn't she herself be the premier authority on this? She is certainly a more reliable source on the subject than some state owned outlet like RT. Zohariko1234 (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, there is an obvious self-interest in hiding one's citizenship. You can elaborate that she has stated so in the body, but to remove the sourced information that she does indeed have Russian citizenship from the body and the lede (as cited by European, Israeli and Russian media) without providing a RS that does not explicitly negate the claim, is not the best way in my opinion. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

there is an obvious self-interest in hiding one's citizenship - spot on. WP:MANDY feels incredibly applicable here.... ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 13:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that by linking to a humorous essay you are only joking, but just in case let it be said that it's not appropriate for us, as Wikipedians, to judge that someone is lying based on it being in their self-interest to do so. (In this case, even that seems like a wild stretch.). We do, however, judge the quality of sourcing, and RT as a source is extremely dubious as a state-sponsored propaganda outlet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My comment is indeed intended to be humorous and I have no disagreements on the reliability of RT, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility given the other country in the discussion here were booted from the competition she participated in. Given the cloud under which that happened, people would respond poorly to that. Not a question of judgment and not impacting my votes which have been based on the convincing arguments of others, of course. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you clarify how you see she has Russian citizenship? Is it the "Russian-Israeli" designation? I'm personally unsure if that is enough to include citizenship but I could be wrong. RT is considered not reliable so there is no use in bringing it up (on top of that there is the fact most europeans cannot visit the website).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Speederzzz: Indeed, the Russian-Israeli label is a clear indication of dual citizenship according to standards of ToI and Euronews. As for RT it explicitly states: "who holds dual Israeli-Russian citizenship". Despite RT's unreliability this just shows that this information is universally accepted as fact. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that RT's unreliability specifically doesn't show it is an accepted fact, simply because RT has lied/misrepresented in the past.

This next part isn't meant as suspicion but probably just my own incompetence: Where did you find the standards of ToI and Euronews? Because I can't find one for the ToI and the Euronews one is mostly vague languages like "we will represent all sides of the story fairly" and such.

I think we need some pretty indisputable statement of her citizenship to counter her own words, even if there are reasons to doubt her personal statement.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 14:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Speederzzz: RT has no interest in lying about some random singer's citizenship status. Nor does an Israeli or European news sources. ToI and Euronews and media generally refer to people exclusively using their citizenship status. Furthermore, taking an interview, a primary source, reading her denial in it and then using it as fact without commentary from a secondary source, is also original research. We have no RS saying otherwise and this fact should not be disputed by OR. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure if "generally refer to" is strong enough in this case. Barred nationalities (Albanian-American, Moroccan-German, Dutch-Suriname) do not always refer to nationality in the media. Assigning a citizenship that could cause negative attention (thanks to the war) without indisputable evidence might bring negative attention to Wikipedia.

I would say that RT has a reason to claim her as Russian, since countries often like to claim popular figures as theirs. A symbol of their cultural impact so to say. Unsure if that is what is happening. Honestly don't care, RT isn't reliable so the whole discussion is kinda useless. (But if I didn't have useless discussions, I would have to fill my free time with something else :P)

So yeah, generally I'm extra cautious because of BLP and because if the vagueness/multiple uses of barred nationalities.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 17:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neither ToI nor Euronews mention citizenship, they refer to "The Russian-Israeli star/singer". There is no reason to suppose they are not referring to ethnicity and/or career beginnings - (one can be a Russian singer, without being a Russian). I can't access RT, so don't know how explicit it is, but that is hardly a reliable source anyway. Pincrete (talk) 04:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, my name is Eddie and I am the father of Eden Golan.

This entire issue is simply outrageous! Eden, like the rest of the family, does not and has never had Russian citizenship! Never! Our whole family and Eden are all Israeli citizens! We lived in Russia due to my work and had visas! Neither we nor Eden had Russian citizenship!

We have already contacted the editors of this site several times, the issue was corrected, and yet someone there keeps bringing this misinformation up again and again! Enough already! We're fed up! Don't the editors who keep writing this nonsense have anything better to do? Don't you have more important things to focus on? How many times do we need to correct you and you keep at it! Enough is enough!

I am once again making it unequivocally clear: Eden is an Israeli singer! She does not have Russian citizenship and has never had Russian citizenship! The fact that Eden lived in Russia for a few years does not make her Russian or a holder of Russian citizenship!

Is this finally clear to you now?! 147.235.146.145 (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tried my best finding english language sources, post-eurovision. As I expected, the "Israeli" list now contains a bunch more generally reliable entries. The "Russian-Israeli" list mostly features lower reliability certainty articles and the word is often used only in the image description. The balance seems to have shifted to "Israeli".

If you find more articles, feel free to send a message on my personal talk page. If someone speaks Russian or Hebrew and can share what those sources say, that would be very valuable.

PS: I think it might be time to start archiving some parts, the length of this page is becoming a bit silly. If anything, with the posting of the updated list I think it is valid to archive the old one. Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 19:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@[[User:Speederzzz|Speede First of all, thank you very much for your research, I happen to speak Russian and Hebrew, and I would like to give a few insights into the question, first of all, when we title Eden as Russian/Israeli/Russian-Israeli, what are we referring to here? nationality, place of birth, citizenship, current location, descent? the answer to this question will have a great impact on how we label her, I now have another thing to say, I have the answer to her nationality, she is ISRAELI, she identifies as Israeli, source: https://www.mako.co.il/tv-the-next-star/season10-articles/Article-e63d0715f646d81027.htm

She has said in numerous interviews, including in the rising star TV series that she is Israeli, she moved to Russia only because of her father's business, she also said she had a foreign accent when speaking Russian, which is why she sings a lot in English in the Russian Golos (Голос) series she said she studies in an online school, she didn't attend a Russian school, and also, a funny remark, both the Russian and Hebrew Wikipedia agree she is ISRAELI

"Эден Голан (ивр. עדן גולן‎; род. 5 октября 2003, Кфар-Сава, Израиль) — израильская певица, представительница Израиля на конкурсе песни «Евровидение-2024» с песней Hurricane, заняла 5 место и 2 место по голосованию зрителей."

"עדן גולן (נולדה ב-5 באוקטובר 2003) היא זמרת-יוצרת, רקדנית ומפיקה מוזיקלית ישראלית." Doctorbeak (talk) 11:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and if I may add something else, when you say someone is Russian-Israeli it sounds as though you're either referring to their citizenship, nationality or origin, but Idk what the Wikipedia policy on this topic is, if you really have a problem deciding how to label it, Idk, Email her? it might be the best solution at this point Doctorbeak (talk) 11:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is indeed a problem in "what does Russian-Israeli" even means? Because it can refer to citizenship, but we have no evidence of Russian citizenship. It can mean heritage, but her parents are from the former soviet union. (It is possible that the sources simply used the Pars-par-toto of Russia to mean Soviet Union, but we cannot know their intention unless we ask.) It could just mean a national connection, however she states she doesn't feel that way, but there argument to be made that it isn't a case of self identification (although I am unsure how that is seen in the wikipedia community). The multiple interpretations are, I think, at the base of this discussion.

I am unsure if "Russian/Hebrew Wikipedia uses X, thus X is right" is strong enough to stand on its own, as wikipedia citing wikipedia would create some problems I can imagine. It does give a certain signal. (I am very happy I had an obsession with writing systems in my teens, so I could still transliterate what you wrote haha)

I personally think the current situation (Israeli with a clarification for the use if Russian-Israeli in a note) is satisfactory, now that most new and reliable sources describe her as Israeli (and her Eurovision performance outshines anything she has done in Russia).

I think the only thing we can do to make consensus even stronger is if we get some good sources from Russian and Israeli sources that describe her instead of her describing herself, just so we avoid whether WP:ABOUTSELF or some other policy is applicable here. (I would say this falls within the bounds of ABOUTSELF but I don't have much experience with making those judgements so take me with a grain of salt on that point).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Speederzzz I mostly agree with you.

Btw, I didn't mean to cite the Russian/Hebrew Wikipedias as sources, I was merely joking about the strange situation.

In the meantime, I found this Russian source:

https://www.1tv.ru/shows/golos-deti-5/talents/eden-golan Doctorbeak (talk) 15:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sadly unable to read that page, probably part of the EU anti-russian media law/situation(?) So you'll have to do the boring part (writing what they use and if you consider them reliable).

I think we gotta wait and see if others agree too, and if that's the case change Hurricane (Eden Golan song) from "Russian-Israeli" to "Israeli". I sadly have made only around 100 edits, so I can't change it.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Speederzzz

This source is from her time in Russia, they mentioned her to be from Israel, so I suppose if by giving her a label we are discussing her origin, we have a Russian source saying her origin is Israeli

the text in the source:

"Эден

Голан

14 лет, Израиль. «Мы переехали в Москву девять лет назад из-за папиной работы. Мне очень нравится Россия, тут очень приятные люди и очень красиво, особенно зимой. Я не хожу в школу, я учусь в интернете. Меня хвалят за доброту — я всегда помогаю, если что-то случилось. Я очень трудолюбивая: у меня есть цель и я к ней иду»." Doctorbeak (talk) 21:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of this is besides the point. Russian-Israeli is a specific designation of citizenship. News websites do not need to list all citizenships of every person they are talking about. We have three sources, highly relevant and two relatively reliable ones, saying she is a dual citizen of Russia and Israel. On the other hand, there are no sources denying that except an interview. There is no justification for the removal of this reliably sourced piece of information. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We do? Can you tell me which ones so I can add it to the list/whether I missed that while making the list. I'll put the citizenship in the Note part. I think updating this list would be better than making a new one every so often.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 15:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per this sourcing and due to the statement of the subject, I support removing the discussed mention of Russia. I think that some of the articles referring to it are suffering from Citogenesis. FortunateSons (talk) 07:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is reliably sourced that she is a Russian-Israeli singer. We can explain the circumstances of her birth and how she moved to Israel as an adult, but she spent practically her entire childhood in Russia and had a years-long career as a public figure/musician there before moving to Israel. Removing the Russian connection constitutes nationalist editing. The descriptor Russian-Israeli has been stable for a long time and is preferred by reliable sources, and shouldn't be removed without consensus for only describing her as Israeli – a consensus that it seems is highly unlikely to emerge. --Tataral (talk) 14:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But we now also have reliable sources calling her Israeli, as you can see from the updated list there is a difference in pre- and post-eurovision, with R-I dominating pre-eurovision, but now I is dominating. So it definitely isn't stable in reliable sources. Besides that, whether she is R-I or I has not been too stable in my opinion. There have been times where I dominated and R-I dominated. For the last few days it has been I, but before that it was R-I for a few days. I definitely agree the Russian connection should stay, I am just unsure whether "Russian-Israeli" or "Israeli who spend most of her youth in Russia". I'm honestly fine with both, but my believe that R-I is definitly right has been weakened with the new RS favoring Israeli.

P.S. edit: I see you changed it back, so when I said currently I mean previously.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 15:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We do not measure stability in terms of days. She has been described as Russian-Israeli for ages, months. This was only changed without consensus for short periods of time, usually without proper sources, by editors disagreeing with the sources. It shouldn't be changed without a consensus for describing her as only Israeli. She was an adult when she moved to Israel one and a half years ago and had had a seven-year long career as a public figure in Russia by then. While she was born in Israel, she left before even starting primary school. All her ancestors hail from the state that was the Russian Empire prior to the Russian revolution, she herself only lived in Moscow (outside of Israel). Both her parents were born Soviet citizen, at least one of them with a connection to Moscow. The fact that her more distant ancestors may have lived in other parts of the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire doesn't change that. She has an obvious connection to Russia, also professionally and as a public figure. One and a half years ago it would have been absurd to describe her as Israeli, given that she was a woman who grew up in Russia and who was active in Russian TV shows and who left Israel while still a kindergartener. --Tataral (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine that all these sources say xyz, but there's a lot of misinformation about this. Instead of us trying to come to a conclusion based on what we think, or based on our interepretation of what the media has reported, why don't we try and implement what she wants.

Inhttps://www.thejc.com/news/israel/eden-golan-israels-eurovision-entry-determined-to-perform-in-the-face-of-death-threats-i8lx5bsj she says: While a star in Russia, she experienced antisemitism there. Reflecting on her time there, she says: “I always felt like an outsider there; I was never really a part of them.”

This is consistent with other interviews I've heard from her where she considers herself to be 100% Israeli and 0% Russian. No one disputes that she lived there for a chunk of her life, but she doesn't regard herself as Russian let alone Russian Israeli. And so she was a citizen, living there as a kid, but if she doesn't want to be labeled as such, should we still force our pedantry on her?

On top of this, the lede is horribly skewed. It should be more along the lines of : She represented Israel in the Eurovision Song Contest 2024 with the song "Hurricane", which finished in fifth place. Born in Israel, Golan moved with her family to Russia at age six.

Lachlan Murdoch spent most of his formative years in the States but is described here as Australian. MaskedSinger (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course, we label her as a Russian citizen per RS even if she denies or would not like to be associated with Russia. This is irrelevant. WP is written based on what reliable sources say, not based on what people would like to think of themselves. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't believe that. Surely? What if the reliable source is wrong? Still go with that?

What we deem here based on these sources trumps what the reality is?! Please explain to me why this is so contentious? @Makeandtoss, please let mw know why is it so important that she be labeled as Russian? MaskedSinger (talk) 09:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because WP reflects reliable sources. We have three sources from three different region: Israel, Europe and Russia saying she is a dual citizen. And I have found further sources now reflecting universal consensus: [8], [9], [10]. Just as Shireen Abu Akleh is described as Palestinian-American. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the 2nd VOA article, I'm going to add it to the list too.

I do however think "universal consensus" is a bit extreme, since we have many documented cases of reliable sources leaving out the Russian part.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 10:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think leaving out the Russian part is a contradiction. I think it is normal. Just like how describing a photon as a particle does not negate the fact that it is also a wave. Plenty of articles to describe Shireen Abu Akleh as only Palestinian. [11] [12] Makeandtoss (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you aware of how fallacious your logic is?

If somewhere a person's birthday was put as March 2 and thus in articles everywhere on sites that are reliable sources it says the birthday is March 2, you'd say the birthday is March 2. What if thats a mistake and its actually March 22, you'd still say March 2 as thats what the sources say? Because this is whats happening here. Most likely one of the wire services said "Russian Israeli" and this is why all the other articles say it. It's not x different sources, it's the same incorrect source x times. MaskedSinger (talk) 11:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One can have only one birthday. But one can have multiple passports. How is that even a good analogy? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1) First of all, you're wrong. There's more than one calendar ;)

2) Passports doesn't equal nationality. If I'm Greek and I get a Peruvian passport from one of my parents even though I've never set foot there, that makes me Peruvian? Then again I could be born in Spain, move to Italy when I'm 12 and even though I'm now 23, I consider myself Spanish. Point is, how can you or a journalist define someone else's nationality. It's up to the person themselves.

What I don't get with any of this is why it's so important to you. Why do you care what nationality she is? What's in this for you? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from personalizing this discussion and focus on Wikipedia guideline, namely WP:NATIONALITY: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident." Makeandtoss (talk) 13:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She is notable for being Israeli.

OnWP:NATIONALITY it says:

The simplest example is someone who continued to reside in their country of origin:

Daniel Boone (November 2, 1734 [O.S. October 22] – September 26, 1820) was an American pioneer and frontiersman.

This is what we have here - born in Israel and lives in Israel.

then it says: Finally, in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted.

But yet because an Al jazeera article from AFP that says shes Russian Israeli, you're going to contradict the said same guidelines you refer to?!?! MaskedSinger (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She did not continue to reside there, she was raised in Russia and rose to prominency there. Her nationality is neither unclear nor controversial, we have five reliable sources attesting to her dual citizenship. Please also read WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you have to torment this poor girl. What for? MaskedSinger (talk) 15:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also: "Most likely one of the wire services said "Russian Israeli" and this is why all the other articles say it. It's not x different sources, it's the same incorrect source x times." this is your personal opinion that is not supported by source. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is an essay on this topic: Verifiability, not truth. Unless we find a verifiable source finding that the others have made a mistake/have copied each others mistakes, we can't use it as proof.

You could try contacting the author of one of the "Russian-Israeli" articles and see where they got it from. Of course private communications can be hard to verify on its authenticity, but that could be a start (or not).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You continue to put misleading claims.

Just to make it clear, soviet union is not equal to Russia 46.116.251.199 (talk) 08:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sibce @Tataral insist to put Russian and since the majority is against, I suggest to open rfc about the subject. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page guidelines suggest starting archiving above 75 KB, we are currently at 126,5 KB. Is there someone willing to set up a bot to archive some of the dormant discussions from the beginning. I am not confident enough to attempt it myself and possibly make a big mess here haha

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, 45 day timeline, should be picked up in the next few days. Mdann52 (talk) 06:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As you can learn from her name, she is not Russian. Her name is very Israeli. She defines herself as Israeli. She was born in Israel. She only has Israeli citizenship. Hebrew is her first language. Her family origin is from Lithuania and Ukraine, not Russia. Her father (and previously her grandfather) worked in Russia. Therefore she lived with her family in Russia, yet keeping her Hebrew name, despite antisemitic experiences she went through. So what makes her Russian? The fact that she had to immigrate there as a child? The fact that she made a living as a singer in Russia on a variety of TV platforms certainly does NOT make her Russian.

There is a much more distinct case. The singer Tamer Nafar is an Israeli citizen. He lived his whole life in Israel. He only has Israeli citizenship and no other. Speaks great Hebrew. He even live in "Israeli Heroes" street (רחוב גיבורי ישראל). However, he is not defined as an "Israeli rapper" but as a "Palestinian rapper". Not even as an "Israeli Arab" or "Israeli-Palestinian". Just Palestinian. This absurdity exists, only because he defines himself as Palestinian. He does not have Palestinian citizenship. He never lived in the Palestinian Authority (which is very close to his home). He simply chooses to live in Israel, and calls himself Palestinian. Nafar's self-determination is not more important than Golan's. Otherwise its just a bias. Pacifico (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well said! There is clearly something else at play here. MaskedSinger (talk) 05:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't think necessarily is something nefarious going on, I've seen similar problems come up in the past on BLP pages. Usually there are two camps, those that believe we should respect the wishes of living people and those who believe some sort of objective knowledge/truth must be given priority over the personal requests of the subject. Sometimes it's just people with a specific interpretation of the rules, sometimes it is the personal belief of someone that they believe they can support with Wikipedia's policy. There are certainly situations of bad faith, I have seen those reading talk pages before, but I think a large part of the desire to describe her as Russian-Israeli can be put down to the fact that many sources have described her like that.

I don't think it will help to solve the current conflict to be so suspicious of other editors and it might feel to pro-"Russian-Israeli" editors like you are casting WP:ASPERSIONS.

(Also do we have to start a new topic every time a new editor finds this page, we now have about 12 topics on the same question, which feels a bit silly)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Speederzzz Please explain to me why anyone would be so invested in this? So adamant she is Russian-Israeli as opposed to Israeli? You say there are 2 camps but here they are one and the same - her wishes equalss the objective truth. And I've already said here above, it's not many sources, it's the same source many times. What most likely happened is that writers came here, saw her described as Russian Israeli and then referred to her as such in their piece. There are your sources.

Sure there can be debate about the facts and how they should be presented, but put this to the side and ponder why some are so insistent she be described as Russian-Israeli? What's in it for them? Clearly there's something otherwise there wouldn't be 20 threads about it on the talk page trying to get common sense to prevail. What exactly is going on here but more importantly, why? MaskedSinger (talk) 08:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for anyone else and I don't like to speculate, but people really do get way to emotionally involved with random Wikipedia articles and certain edits. I believe I read an Essay on it but I can't find it. There should be no reason why I am at this article, I boycotted Eurovision (one day The Netherlands will have its revenge) but I'm still here.

I genuinely think that the people who argue that it should be Russian-Israeli believe in the points they make. I think they feel that they are supported by RSs (and believe the recent "Israeli" sources are simply only pointing to citizenship or the country they represented).

Wikipedians aren't always 100% rational people, I certainly am not. So I think it is best to be civil and let the process work itself out (or help it a little bit). I hope something comes out of the BLP noticeboard brings something useful.

It could also be that I just miss context, so have any of the "Russian-Israeli" editors crossed paths with you before on this sort of topic? Is this a larger trend? What would they have to gain if they tried to push this without actually believing it to be right? What do you think the alternative goals would be?

You don't have to answer, of course, I just feel like you are very suspicious and I don't fully get it. But you don't owe me an explanation! I'm just trying to understand the conflict.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

its some sort of WP:ADVOCACY] but what for - i couldn't tell you. Whenever there are disputes, I don't look at the what, I try to understand the why. And I just don't get it. What does making her Russian achieve? Who gains from this? Russians? People who are Anti-Israel? Not clear whats to gain from this. We can go round and round in circles, but what she herself should have the final say. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, after reading more stuff on BLP problems and thinking some by myself, I think it is important to respect people's wishes, especially on the front of self-identification. Without a Russian citizenship, the Russian-Israeli connection seems to mostly be due to being identified with Russia rather than as Russian. In that case I think it not very fair to favour some sources over others (or interpreting sources in a certain way) to identify her as something she doesn't want.

Purely because I can't think of a nefarious reason to do it, I think it's not an agenda. Wikipedia has a lot of rules, and you can often argue many points through interpreting the rules in one way or another. There was a time when I was leaning more towards Russian-Israeli but it wasn't because I had it out for her. I simply thought that that was the appropriate text, supported by arguments and sources. (I wasn't very confident in my opinion so I tried not to argue too hard for one or the other position)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 16:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since October 7, wikipedia has been out of control. Frightening reflection of the world we live in. MaskedSinger (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lets be honest. There is a majority against classifying her as russian, but @Tataral insist to put the Russian.

He also falsely claims that there is a consensus for duch claims. This is all the while he should know there is no. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 04:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is clearly some canvassing going on, probably via social media. We can't have the same debate each time an IP sees something on Twitter or Facebook and complains here, without contributing any policy-based arguments. It has been clearly demonstrated that she is described as Russian-Israeli by reliable sources and that her connection to Russia (including professionally) is at least as strong as her connection to Israel, where she moved one and a half years ago. --Tataral (talk) 01:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that if you keep repeating something over and over again, it might come true? MaskedSinger (talk) 04:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tataral, as usual you ignore from the fact that many sources also describe her only as Israeli.

You also ignore from the fact that she was born in Israel and not in Russia. You also ignore from the fact that none of her parents are Russians. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 05:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to support your canvassing statement, some time ago I came across this: [13] A reddit threat about this page. It's old now, but it definitly shows there has been attention to it outside of Wikipedia.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well I have not seen anything outside Wikipedia regarding this page.

The attention is mainly due to eurovision.

Also there is nothing in the link that is canvassing.

Anyway, currently there is vast majority against calling her Russian and we have tataral that force his opinion 46.116.251.199 (talk) 10:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The canvassing thing isn't even in dispute at this point. All through Eurovision posts like these went up accusing us of every form of bigotry/hidden agenda under the sun for... using an infobox category. Now that's seeped onto the talk page with nuclear-level awful faith accusations of "tormenting", and that editors on this talk page are "closet antisemites" or involved in this discussion for some sort of nefarious reason. Comical. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 11:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is better you respond to the rfc. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 06:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand there's been a lot of fighting here. I don't know the context. But does the second sentence in the lead have to say that she moved someplace when she was six? That's not really notable; why isn't it just relegated to her Early Life? Zanahary (talk) 09:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that part has to do with the larger "Russian-Israeli" vs "Israeli" discussion that has been going on. Some other wikis also have it in the lede I believe. If you think it should be changed I do recommend you inform yourself on the earlier discussions since changes to anything in how her origin is described can be very sensitive.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 11:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I understood it as the product of the dispute. But readers don’t know or care about that, and that’s not the point of an article’s lead section. That she moved at the age of six is not the second thing anyone wants to know about her. It should stay in the body, not the lead. I read the discussions and this is my stance. Zanahary (talk) 16:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I want to preface this by saying that I am firmly, 100% in the camp against describing her as "Russian-Israeli" and in favour of describing her as solely Israeli. She's made it very clear that she's not Russian. However, this isn't really the point of your question so I'll stop here. To answer you, I personally believe that this information is relevant in the lead to give context for her career in Russia.

If there's no mention of her moving to Russia as a child, it feels odd to me, from a reader's point of view, to read about her participation in the Russian selection for the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and the Russian edition of The Voice Kids. As a reader, I would be confused as to why she didn't participate in the Israeli editions of those if I didn't have an explanation that she had moved to Russia. Bizarre Bizarre^{Talk modern to me} 01:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the obvious implication of her Russian career is that she lived in Russia for that time, with no need to explain at what age she moved where. Zanahary (talk) 05:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People can participate in song contests in other countries, like Glennis Grace who participated (and almost won) America got talent while being Dutch and living in the Netherlands. Perhaps the exact age is not too important, but it might help to not confuse readers to just tell them why she participated in those Russian shows instead of any Israeli shows. I don't think it's fair to just assume readers will think she moved. Here in the Netherlands we have quite a few singers who are mildly well known here, but are very famous in Germany. So becoming famous in another place and participating there doesn't (at least for a segment of the readers) automatically infer that they lived in the country they participate in competitions and are famous in (especially if we remove any mention of age).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If she’s notable for her career in Russia, then her having lived there is secondary context to the notable information. Zanahary (talk) 08:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think if the lede leads people to do a double take (wait if she's Israeli, how come she's participating in these Russian competitions) then something has gone wrong. Perhaps "She participated in ... while living in Russia" Might be a good middle ground between too detailed and too vague? Although I'm unsure of the exact wording. Her life in Russia is a large part of her life is explained and elaborated upon in two places in the article (early life and career), so it should, in my opinion, at least be mentioned (and not implied) in the lede.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

wonderful question! MaskedSinger (talk) 11:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is important not to mislead the reader, but I think this principle also hold regarding not confusing the reader to think that her ethnicity or citizenship is Russian.

But that is exactly what this article is doing. ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m closing this discussion as demonstrating consensus for using “Israeli” in the first sentence. That is the view taken by most participants in the discussion, and that view is accompanied by good policy-based arguments. I would also be deeply troubled by the idea that Wikipedia would describe her as “Russian-Israeli” when she herself is on record as distancing herself from the idea of being Russian. Of course we don’t allow subjects to dictate content, but the basis for overruling her own self-identification is weak, and doing this would be in significant tension with the core principle of our BLP policy which insists on respect for living persons. The weakness of the case for doing so consists of the fact that only some sources use the term “Russian-Israeli”, while a great many sources use “Israeli”. Again, the main reason for the close is the consensus in the discussion here, a consensus that is well grounded in relevant policies. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's discuss and decide here whether we should mention her as Russian Israeli or as Israeli. This is since the debate is endless and has not been solved until now and it is for a very long time. ArmorredKnight (talk) 14:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favour of mentioning her only as Israeli, This is since she was born in Israel. She has only Israeli citizenship and she liives in Israel ArmorredKnight (talk) 14:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ArmorredKnight I find the current situation quite absurd, she's labelled as Russian-Israeli, yet we add a footnote saying she was born in Israel, does not hold a Russian citizenship and doesn't consider herself Russian? That's quite odd.

I think she should most probably be labelled as simply Israeli, and not Russian-Israeli, but then again, could someone please clarify what are we referring to when we call her Russian-Israeli/Russian, is it her citizenship, nationality, place of birth, the place where her career started? Doctorbeak (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can explain this one!

It used to be Israeli and the note explained that RSs call her Russian-Israeli too but that she was not born in russia, didn't hold russian citizenship nor does she consider herself Russian.

Then another editor changed Israeli to Russian Israeli, but didn't change the note, creating confusion.

On the topic of what does Russian-Israeli indicate, It is complex, since that descriptor can have multiple interpretations, which, I think, is at the crux of the problem.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, how many times do we need to have this discussion? I have been steadfast in my opinions on this since the article was created, she should be "Russian-Israeli" or at the very least "Russian and Israeli." I also do not mind if the order is reversed to "Israeli-Russian" or "Israeli and Russian." I have seen no arguments for only mentioning Israeli other than nationalist talking points. She was a Russian singer coincidentally born in Israel for the majority of her professional career, and her Israeli career began only two years ago. I also fail to see the "but she represented Israel in Eurovision, not Russia" argument when she quite literally attempted to represent Russia at the junior version a few years earlier into her career. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 17:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lets not have Straw man. The arguments against calling her Russian, is that; she is not ethnically Russian; she has no Russian citizenship; and she was not born in Russia.

I think those are strong arguments and I wonder why you ignor from them. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 17:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why we're using all this OR to figure out what to describe when reliable sources exist, and they seem to say 'Russian-Israeli'

https://www.euronews.com/culture/2024/03/04/eurovision-2024-israel-agrees-to-change-lyrics-to-its-controversial-entry-october-rain

https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-to-revise-eurovision-entries-said-to-allude-to-hamas-attack-/7511788.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-eurovision-singer-eden-golan-upbeat-despite-scrutiny/

https://inews.co.uk/culture/music/who-is-eden-golan-what-israels-eurovision-entry-has-said-about-gaza-conflict-3048997

https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/music/eurovision-song-contest-israel-eden-golan-b1156685.html

Traumnovelle (talk) 03:26, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's some reliable sources using "Israeli"
Associated Press
Times of Israel
USA Today
Jewish Journal
The JC
Ynet
The Guardian
BBC
Forbes
Jerusalem Post
EDIT:
Huffington Post
i24
News.com.au
Haaretz
PBS
The Forward
The Independent
Fox News Zanahary (talk) 05:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Half your sources are Israeli. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By my count, only the Times of Israel, the Jerusalem Post, and Ynet are Israeli, which would be three out of ten. Israeli sources are also, of course, more likely to report on an Israeli singer who represented Israel at Eurovision—and they're not unreliable for biographical information about Israelis. Zanahary (talk) 06:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, half the sources are Jewish, happy now? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should really just say "Jewish" when that's what you mean. Zanahary (talk) 06:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That’s not an appropriate way to characterise a source for the purposes of evaluating the veracity of it’s claims. FortunateSons (talk) 06:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Considering potential bias is appropriate when evaluating sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you consider that an issue? FortunateSons (talk) 06:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because Israeli/Jewish sources obviously would want to emphasise someone's Israeli/Jewishness. Same reason I didn't bother to cite any Russian sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any evidences that Jewish/Israeli source want to hide other part of nationality of people that are Israeli/Jewish?

Because if not, then your assumption is based on your imagination. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to go to work, so I can't look for myself right now. but are there any new reliable sources in your list that aren't in my earlier list? If so I want to add them, make sure it is up to date and all. (If you don't have time to check, I'll do it myself once I'm free.)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are. Feel free to copy your updated lists into this discussion if you think they'd be pertinent (I think so) Zanahary (talk) 07:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll update it during my break.

I'd rather just link/refer to my list instead of just plopping it down, since it's such a huge list and might make reading the discussion even more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eden_Golan#Updated_sources_lists for those who wan't to know which list we're talking about. (Bare URL for ease of copying for myself and whomever wants to share it too.)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So my personal life and mental health went on a two day journey, but updating the list has been therapeutic. It includes most of your sources, I excluded two that seemed to be frowned upon by the community, i24 and News.com.au. If you think I made a mistake with that I'm open change if I can see a good argument for them, but honestly, I don't think more need to be added to get the point across.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thank you! Zanahary (talk) 22:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

100% Israeli. This is who she is, this is what she wants. This is common sense. Anyone else saying otherwise has some sort of agenda which I'd love to know what it is. MaskedSinger (talk) 14:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MaskedSinger: Your repeated pattern of unfounded allegations of editors having an "agenda" and other similar comments (1, 2, 3, 4 etc) are blatant WP:AGF violations and are deeply unhelpful. Please cease with these now. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ser! Whats unfounded about them? MaskedSinger (talk) 14:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have no factual backing for your repeated allegations. WP:AGF is not optional. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have blocked MaskedSinger 1 week for casting aspersions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question for anyone with more knowledge on this than I do: are editors with less than 500 edits, such as the one who created this, permitted to create RfCs under WP:ARBPIA? To the best of my knowledge they're not, but I can't be 100%. @Makeandtoss:, apologies for the random ping but since you've removed comments from editors who weren't allowed to edit here I was wondering if you might know. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know they are limited to making edit requests only. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the real question is if this is part of the Arab/Israel conflict, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that it isn't, even if much of the attention driven here might be motivated by the controversy associated with the current war FortunateSons (talk) 14:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Yeah, good question. Given the high-profile controversy of Israel's participation because of actions in that conflict I would see it broadly construed falling under that, but it's open to consideration I suppose. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing her treatment at Eurovision and the discussion around her from protesters, politicians (both Israeli and foreign), other Eurovision candidates (especially the Polish, Irish and Swiss participants) I think it is impossible to separate her fame from the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at this point. Many (but of course not all, she is also a good singer) calls to support her did not come for her music but to support Israel on the international stage. (I recall a dutch politician who encouraged voting for her, but did not even mention her music, if I remember correctly)

Besides that, I feel that there are some editors who definitely interpret this page as an extension of the conflict. The quote from MaskedSinger (I saw the block) comes to mind:

"Since October 7, wikipedia has been out of control. Frightening reflection of the world we live in."

Which seems to tie the conflict to this page in their eyes.

I'll wait with giving my thoughts in this topic until this administrative stuff has been worked through.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 16:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have opened a discussion at AN to get more input on the applicability of ARBPIA. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So just to check, It's fine if non-500/30 users give their opinion in this RFC right?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Leaning towards "Israeli" only. (Summoned by bot) Obviously we should typically be making such a determination on the basis of the WP:RS alone, not WP:original research by way of WP:synthesis. That said, if I am to credit the observations about the sourcing above as accurate, sources are all over the place on the appropriate descriptor. Nevertheless,the following facts seem to be undisputed: the subject was born in Israel, she has no attested Russian heritage, she never had or pursued Russian citizenship, and she no longer lives in Russia or has plans to permanently immigrate there. In an edge case where the sources disagree on the proper label, and it's entirely reasonable to assume that some entertainment industry press may have been unaware of the details of her background and simply referred to her as "Russian" presumptively or in reflection of her notability there, I think it's probably permissible for us to ascribe more weight to the sources which align with the facts as we understand them.
  There is a counter-argument to that (besides WP:OR), which is that what it means to be "Russian" (or a member of any nationaly-defined identity) has many different meanings, and having spent the vast majority of one's life in a place and achieves some cultural fame there, might very well apply in the eyes of some. Still, taking the information and sources as a whole, I'm most comfortable with just "Israeli".
  Regardless of any of the above or the ultimate outcome of this RfC, a substantial portion of the remainder of the article (and even the lead) concerns precisely the details of the subject's background and biographical facts relevant to the very question being debated here, so the reader will have every bit of information they need to arrive at their own conclusions and decide which descriptor is most accurate, so this debate is largely a tempest in a teapot, and I'd like to suggest that anyone going to the mat over what label appears in the first sentence is losing perspective, whether their motivations are nationalistically-derived or not. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:12, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Amending comments: above I say that there doesn't seem to be any dispute as to the subject's Russian citizenship status, but having read yet more of the previous discussions, I see this actually is something that has been debated previously. However there does seem to be a rough consensus in the discussion in question that the one source expressly claiming she had Russian citizenship may not be particularly reliable as a sole source for this claim. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 04:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong vote for Israeli only. She was born in Israel and does not have Russian citizenship.^[1] The time she moved to Russia or the length of her stay has no relevance on her citizenship status. Per my understanding of Russian citizenship law (agood article), one has to apply for Russian citizenship, apart from exceptional cases like Gérard Depardieu and Steven Seagal (whose Russian citizenship isn't mentioned in either lead, only in the infobox); it is not given automatically. Furthermore, the very article we are discussing includes sources that show both that Eden is not ethnically Russian,^[2] which would in my opinion be the only reason to call her "Russian-Israeli" (and probably not in the lead anyway; we don't list Lady Gaga as "Italian-American" despite her often memed "I'm an Italian girl from New York"), and that she does not feel Russian.^[3]

In the Mako interview, she states plainly that Russians constantly reminded her of the fact that she was not Russian: "There was always this thing that I'm 'Eden Golan,' I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was a foreigner there." An English-language profile for The New York Times reiterates this: "But Golan said that she never felt at home in Russia. Music industry figures told her that she would need to change her name to something more Russian-sounding if she wanted to succeed, she said: 'No one accepted me as one of their own.'"^[4] To go back to Mako, she also talks about having never gotten used to Russia and always wanted to return to Israel, and she mentions that she "flourished" once she was able to do so, further indicating a lack of self-identification with Russia.^[3]

To summarise:

• She was born in IsraeltoIsraeli Jewish parents who were born in the Soviet Union but not the Russian part of it. Per The Forward, "her parents' families both left Soviet countries for Israel — her mother is Ukrainian, her father Latvian."^[2]
• She moved to Russia as a child because of her father's job and never got Russian citizenship during her time in the country. She always felt like a foreigner, which was exacerbated by the fact that Russians constantly reminded her of her Israeli (and Jewish) identity.
• She has identified herself as only Israeli in every interview I've found (of which I only gave a few).

What makes her Russian, really? In my opinion, it is pretty straightforward that she's just Israeli. Bizarre Bizarre^{Talk modern to me} 01:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Israeli. It's not as much a nationality issue as a question of national ties. Frankly, up until a few months ago, I would have said Israeli–Russian, or to omit the descriptor and say she was born in Israel and has competed in Russia's Junior Eurovision selection process. However, competing in the Eurovision competition for Israel has changed the perspective: she now has a clear connection to Israel, not only through birth (and presumably citizenship) but also through Eurovision.
  (Aside: If she were a football player, we might have called her Russian up until a few months ago, since she was in the tryout program for the Russian national team at the youth level. However, now she has a cap in a full international for Israel.) —C.Fred (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli. She has no Russian citizenship, her parents are from Soviet Ukraine and Latvia, she lived for some years in Russia and her career began there. None of this makes her Russian-Israeli. She only calls herself Israeli. She lives in Israel. She's a citizen of only Israel. Reliable sources use both designations; we should go with Israeli. Detail about her childhood can go in her personal/early life section. Zanahary (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli-Russian citizen as clearly identified by Euronews, Times of Israel and Russia Today. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russia Today?? Zanahary (talk) 14:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, especially considering that they have no conflict of interest in saying she has a Russian citizenship, as seen by Russia pro-Palestinian positions over past few months. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still think RT would be a disallowed source, WP:RS states:

"There is community consensus from a request for comment to deprecate the source. The source is considered generally unreliable, and use of the source is generally prohibited. Despite this, the source may be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, although reliable secondary sources are still preferred."

This is clearly controversial and against self-description, so RT should not be used.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 15:15, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, RT is clearly not appropriate here. We are unable and should not attempt to discern the complicated incentive structure that led to their statement, as that would be OR. FortunateSons (talk) 16:12, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There also other many reliable sources that define her only as Israeli 85.65.235.103 (talk) 18:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple other sources that state 'Russian-Israeli', see my comment. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Traumnovelle, there are also multiple sources that state only 'Israeli'.

Why are you ignoring from this? 2A02:14F:1F4:B20F:0:0:55A0:2851 (talk) 07:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't ignore anything. I've only now seen Zanahary's updated list.

I haven't given a position on which should be used - I only commented in regards to the non-policy and guideline arguments that focused on their beliefs on citizenship and whatnot over what sources state. If I were to give an opinion now it would be neutral. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli only. Unless someone can come up with sources that state explicitly that she has held Russian citizenship (present sources don't say that, they could well be referring to her heritage/career beginnings, much as De Niro is an Italian American, but his citizenship is American). The text makes clear that she began her career in Moscow, but that doesn't make her Russian any more than The Beatles are German because they started out in Hamburg. Although it can have other meanings, stating someone's nationality has the primary meaning of the country in which they hold/held citizenship and/or were born, both confirm Israeli here. For the record, I don't hold much store by self-identification, especially as in this instance there is a clear benefit for emphasing the legitimacy of her claim to be 'Israeli'. Regardless of how sincere the identification is, you can't will yourself into citizenship anywhere on the planet. Her early career makes clear her connection with Russia, but that doesn't make her Russian.Pincrete (talk) 04:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources refer to her as Russian-Israeli, reliables sources don't refer to The Beatles as German. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources have used both "Russian-Israeli" and "Israeli" for her. They seem to lean more towards calling her plain Israeli. Zanahary (talk) 06:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources also refer to De Niro as Italian American or even just Italian within a US context, where his citizenship is not doubted. The specific meaning there is obviously a reference to his heritage rather than his citizenship. If we are using 'nationality' principally to record citizenship - which is our common practice, then we can safely interpret sources. Her time in Russia and her starting her career there are fully recorded, but don't impact her 'nationality'. IMO, if we describe anyone as 'name of country'-ish, we need to be clear about what we mean if the meaning is other than the obvious 'citizenship' one (eg Russian-born American). Pincrete (talk) 04:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This has been debated to death and there is consensus to describe her as Russian-Israeli. She has been widely described as Russian-Israeli by reliable sources. Note that there has been a lot of canvassing going on, there seems to be an outside campaign to change it for purely nationalist reasons. Consensus on Wikipedia means that no convincing policy-based arguments have been provided for omitting her Russian background in the lead. She spent most of her life in Russia and moved to Israel one and a half years ago, after a years-long career as a musician and public figure in Russia and contestant in Russian TV productions. Just one and a half years ago she would have been considered primarily Russian for Wikipedia's purposes. So Russian-Israeli is a fair, accurate and objective description. --Tataral (talk) 23:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  There is obviously not consensus—hence the RfC. The policy-based arguments being made are that sources lean “Israeli” and that that designation better matches her identity and the reality of her nationality. Zanahary (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  "This has been debated to death and there is consensus to describe her as Russian-Israeli."

  @Tataral Why are saying false things that you know very well they are false?

  Why repeating this lie? 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Israeli only, with a footnote like

  {{Efn|Golan has been described as Russian-Israeli by several news outlets. She grew up in Russia, but she was born in Israel, does not consider herself Russian, and does not hold Russian citizenship.}}
  

  (or something along those lines) to explain why some might consider her Russian-Israeli. I think this is the best compromise to keep both sides of this argument happy. LivLovisa (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  This seems accurate. I don't agree that the concept of compromise should be considered in WP content discussions; it should all be about sources and policy. Zanahary (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, compromise should not be an influence in wikipedia. Either something can stand on its own merits or something cannot. A footnote like this can help solve confusion in readers that might have seen her described as Russian-Israeli and don't understand why wikipedia "ignores" that. One might erroneously think she has double citizenship if they read Russian-Israeli in a news article and then when they come to wikipedia start believing the article is of low quality.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  What do you mean? Someone will get the wrong impression from a news article, Wikipedia corrects those wrong impressions, and that somehow means Wikipedia has done something wrong? I don't understand. LivLovisa (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Basically if we correct the news without explaining why news articles are wrong it might cause confusion. Most users do not even know of the talk page, sadly.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, hence the footnote. LivLovisa (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, I support the footnote, sorry If i wasn't clear enough about that.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 10:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Israeli. A web search for "singer eden golan" shows many reliable sources using "Israeli singer" and none for "Russian-Israeli" on the first few pages. A footnote is unnecessary because the second sentence of the article better explains actual facts; the current wording Golan has been described as Russian-Israeli by most news outlets is flagrantly original research and apparently wrong. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 02:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The 'original research' is wrong because your original research (which somehow overlooked the dozens of reliable sources that use Russian-Israeli...) differs? Most is inappropriate but the hatnote is fine. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:AGF please. your original research / somehow overlooked: Discussing one's process of searching for sources is appropriate on the talk page, and I hoped my process would avoid the appearance of cherry picking. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 03:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Did something change in the number of sources using Russian-Israeli? Last time I checked they were about equal and all research in how many uses of each was done by me, thus making it WP:OR.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The "most news outlets" was true when the note was first written. Since then things have changed but nobody has updated the content of the note. I think "many news outlets" or simply "by various news outlets" would be better wording since my last source analysis provided 19 R-I vs 20 I. I do think having a note explain the confusion can be useful specifically because R-I is so widespread. I do think the part about being born in israel can be taken out because it is explained later, but the lack of russian citizenship and self-identification would be useful. If it could be outside of a note, that would be better I think, but I am unsure where to place it without it becoming more prominent than I think it should be.

  So my suggestion for a note would be: "Golan has been described as Russian-Israeli by various(/many) news outlets. However, she does not consider herself Russian, and does not hold Russian citizenship."

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think it'd be better to say various instead of the superlative most; however, I believe we are meant to avoid touching it before the RfC has concluded. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah, in that case you can ignore my last comment made just after you send this one haha. I think, since discussion had stopped, people seemed to agree in an informal conclusion of the RfC. But we should get someone to close it soon don't you think? Eurovision is over and it seems almost nobody is interested in the topic anymore.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Could try WP:Closure requests. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Do you want to or should I, just to make sure they don't get a double request.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You can go ahead with doing it. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The request has been made, now we wait.

  Funny how this can rhyme in some English dialects, even though made and wait look nothing like eachother.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Which dialects? How would the rhyming syllable be pronounced? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 09:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I can't think of the exact dialect, but both ending in /eɪt/ is something I've heard. Possibly dutch accented english, since we often turn a d at the end of a word into a t. Which is annoying for a kid who has dyslexia and tries to learn the language (me). It gets worse when we have verbs that end in -dt pronounced as t.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, my name is Eddie and I am the father of Eden Golan.

This entire issue is simply outrageous! Eden, like the rest of the family, does not and has never had Russian citizenship! Never! Our whole family and Eden are all Israeli citizens! We lived in Russia due to my work and had visas! Neither we nor Eden had Russian citizenship!

We have already contacted the editors of this site several times, the issue was corrected, and yet someone there keeps bringing this misinformation up again and again! Enough already! We're fed up! Don't the editors who keep writing this nonsense have anything better to do? Don't you have more important things to focus on? How many times do we need to correct you and you keep at it! Enough is enough!

I am once again making it unequivocally clear: Eden is an Israeli singer! She does not have Russian citizenship and has never had Russian citizenship! The fact that Eden lived in Russia for a few years does not make her Russian or a holder of Russian citizenship!

Is this finally clear to you now?! 147.235.146.145 (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

unfortunately, for some editors, the facts don't matter. But I am sorry for the mislabeling ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is clear to me is one of two things: either the IP is telling the truth, and we have conflict of interest issues to deal with as well as everything else, or the IP is being intentionally disruptive. In either case, the article reflects what is verified in independent reliable sources, not the claims of some random user. —C.Fred (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

problem is that there are sources that call her Israeli and there are sources that call her Russian Israeli. So we can go both way (in that regard). הויקיפדון (talk) 17:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this is indeed Eden’s father, how are there now COI issues to deal with? This IP has never edited before. Zanahary (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zanahary, I think you better response to the rfc as that is what decide eventually. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 17:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zanahary Per their comment: "We have already contacted the editors of this site several times." —C.Fred (talk) 02:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gotcha. Vague, though, and shows a misunderstanding of Wikipedia; could mean they emailed the WMF or something lol Zanahary (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You'd be better off telling the media to fix their description then, presuming you are whom you claim to be. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He doesn't need to do this. because many of the media has already been describing her as Israeli. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She has been widely described as Russian-Israeli by reliable sources and is Russian-Israeli for Wikipedia's purposes. It has nothing to do with citizenship. She lived in Russia for most of her life and was a contestant in Russian TV productions and music competitions. That is a strong connection to Russia. --Tataral (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tataral stop misleading the people. you know very well that there are also more than enough sources that described her only as Israeli. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"She lived in Russia for most of her life and was a contestant in Russian TV productions and music competitions. That is a strong connection to Russia."

That connection doesn't make her Russian. As long as she didn't get Russian citizenship, she is not Russian, even if she lives there more than 30 years. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

citizenship isn't necessarily what determines the description. Right now the discussion is focused on MOS:NATIONALITY, mostly on

"In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

Specifically the final sentence is what causes the argument, since there is no objective way to describe whether this applicable.

I still think you can make a good case for Israeli without solely focusing on citizenship. You could argue that she is 100x more famous for eurovision than any of the Russian competitions. But I'm still waiting a bit before giving my opinion on the whole ordeal.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current way of describing her nationality is very misleading. I think the text in the footnote (as it is right now) is really good, as long as the main claim is adjusted to simply state Israeli. I think a compromise of saying Eden Golan is an Israeli^[a] singer would please both sides of this argument. LivLovisa (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you better write your comment in the rfc. 2A02:14C:5400:EC00:85BF:7F67:B580:31B5 (talk) 07:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon my ignorance, what does RFC mean in this context? LivLovisa (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request For Comment, it's under the header "rfc (Eden Golan Russian Israeli or Israeli)"

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the help page).