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I can't believe how small this page was. I have overhauled its format and fleshed it out, although it probably needs editting, and more images could be added. I'm going to continue to work on it, but if anyone wants to help (especially in countering the positive bias I have), they're more than welcome- Scimitar
The majority of information on this page has been taken from Ferdinand Brock Tupper's book, with a few exceptions (battle, political history and the like are taken from the larger War of 1812 books, and I owe Pierre Berton a considerable knowledge debt). If anyone knows of any other reliable books about Sir Isaac, I'd give a shot at hunting them down and going through them. Thanks.--Scimitar 23:06, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nova Cygni has suggested that this article is NPOV. Can it be improved? Anything that shows Sir Isaac in a less glowing light, maybe? Metaeducation 22:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
When I restructured the introduction I took the order of the bath abbreviation ("KCB") out from after Sir Isaac Brock's name at the beginning of the article. Then someone added it back. I think perhaps that we can just call him Sir Isaac Brock in the article opener, and later elaborate on his various titles without use of abbreviation. It's less cluttered and reads aloud (and in one's head) a bit better. Thoughts? Metaeducation 22:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
From the article:
According to Wikipedia, Ferdinand Brock Tupper was born in 1795, so would have been ten years old in 1805. Is this right? 172.200.83.19 02:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As a history teacher across the border in Ohio, who specializes in military history, I must state that this article about Brock, although excellent, is not without its biases. It refers to the United States as being "colonies" in 1806, which is ridiculous. The U.S. declared independence in 1776 and I have taken the liberty of editing that section of the article to reflect the fact that we had states and were no one's colonies after July 4th, 1776.
Sincerely, Brett Griffith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.252.130 (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
^Good eye, Brett. As you correctly pointed out, the United States was a sovereign nation at the time of the War of 1812.
More than just a little anti-American, its quite anti-American. For example, it cites population pressures as a reason the United States invaded Canda. Is that what they teach? The United States still had millions of acres of open land and there was no population pressure. Manifest Destitny came much much later. We invaded Canada because that was believed to be the only way to strike at the British Empire.
I have removed the following sentence, as it references Brock's supposed long-lost brother Mackenzie Brock, the only other reference to whom was removed some time ago as apparently lacking any sources: "When Mackenzie Brock was captured, he was drawn and quartered for his act of treason." If the claim that Mackenzie shot Isaac is not included in the article, this sentence seems superfluous. If someone finds a source for the other claim, maybe this sentence could be re-added. -Sarcasmboy 02:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how to correct the second paragraph, so I'll leave it to those more knowledgeable.
Some chuckleheads just never learn... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronchristie (talk • contribs) 00:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This passage needs to go:
Brock's last words have been reported as surgite (Latin for "rise" or perhaps "press on"), or "Push on, brave York Volunteers" (in reference to a group of the militia Brock favoured) and even "My fall must not be noticed or impede my brave companions from advancing to victory." It has also been reported that Brock died immediately, however, so these accounts are by no means certain.
The account in Pierre Berton, Invasion of Canada, page 253 indicates this is most unlikely. The York Volunteers were not involved in this particular battle. EdJohnston (talk) 03:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy has advised us to prune external links. Here they all are, with my notes on the ones I think we could do without. I'd get rid of the ones that are more or less parallel to our own article and don't contain much additional that is of interest:
Please let me have your thoughts. If no-one objects, I'll make the changes as listed above. EdJohnston (talk) 04:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nice pictures of Prevost and Hull. But what are they doing here? I assume they have their own articles. Really an article integrity/boundary problem here. If Brock were included in the image, fine. But by themselves? Sorry, it doesn't make sense. The article doesn't include text that does not pertain to Brock. Nor should it include images that don't directly pertain either. Student7 (talk) 22:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An editor has requested deletion of the Commons image Image:Isaac-brock.jpg on copyright grounds. (It is a painting by John Wycliffe Lowes Forster, an artist who lived 1850-1938, so it could have been made since 1923). I do not know if it is still under copyright or who owns the rights, so I don't know how hard it would be to get it back. Now as a replacement we have Image:Isaac Brock portrait 2, from The Story of Isaac Brock (1908).jpg.
There is a problem with the new image. It may *not* actually be a portrait of Brock. It is elsewhere referred to as 'the Brock miniature allegedly by J. Hudson'. There is a 19th-century tradition that this is of Brock, but major doubt is cast on that tradition in a recent paper:
One problem is that the figure portrayed is wearing a medal given to veterans of the Battle of Waterloo, a battle which took place after Brock's death. Kosche is convinced that the man depicted is not Brock, but is likely to be an officer in the Royal Welch Fusiliers. In his view the miniature was painted close to the time of the Battle of Waterloo (1815), and shows a man who would have been young then.
A different image, the one shown at http://clarke.cmich.edu/detroit/brock1812.htm, https://www.cmich.edu/library/clarke/ResearchResources/Michigan_Material_Local/Detroit_Pre_statehood_Descriptions/Entries_by_Date/Pages/1812-Brock.aspx is believed by Kosche to have a good chance of being a likeness of Brock. (For details see the paper). He believes it was painted by William Berczy (1748-1813) and shows Brock from the period of 1808 or 1809. I suggest we add the Berczy image to the article, in place of the one that could be a painting of someone else. EdJohnston (talk) 03:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's repetition of the fact that he died before learning of his knighthood. I suggest removing the first of the two statements of this fact. I suggest changing "For his actions in the capture of Detroit, Brock was knighted, though he died at the Battle of Queenston Heights before news of his knighthood reached him" to just "Brock was knighted for his actions in the capture of Detroit." In a later section it says, "He was appointed a Knight Companion of the Order of the Bath (KCB) on October 10, 1812 for his victory at Detroit, although word did not reach Canada until after his death, so he never knew he had been knighted." ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there's no objection, I think I'm going to add wikilinks from the Footnotes section into the appropriate entries in the References section, as I did at Che Guevara and at Temple Sinai (Oakland, California). (Remind me if I forget to do this.) See Wikipedia:Citing sources/Further considerations#Wikilinks to full references. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tupper, 2nd edition, page 331, has his dying words as "Push on, the York volunteers". It has been noted (higher up on this Talk page) that the York Volunteers were not present at this battle. I suggest that we remove all the different accounts of his dying words from the main narrative, and only include them in a later section on Brock's posthumous reputation, if we can put one together. Brock became a sort of mythical figure after his death, and the account of the dying words might belong there. Tupper's 1847 account (written 35 years later, and providing no source for the final words) is hard to believe. From previous reading I think there were some contemporary newspapers published that talked about his final words; those could be quoted.
There is a very serious primary source called Documentary History of the Campaigns Upon the Niagara Frontier, volume 4, page 114-116, that quotes a letter by Lieutenant Archibald McLean, who was within sight of Brock at the battle of Queenston Heights. He describes Brock as dying without uttering any final word. I don't have access to a library that holds this work. The citation of the work is:
{{cite book}}
: |author=
has generic name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)Let me know if anyone objects to my removing discussion of his final words from the main narrative. I don't mind if a 'posthumous reputation' section is added later when good references are pinned down. EdJohnston (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Latimer (2007), p. 79, quotes a second eyewitness. "Militia Pvt. John Binney also saw Brock fall, saying '..he was past human aid and never moved or spoke.' "According to George Jarvis, a 15-year-old gentleman volunteer who was with the 49th's Light Company close by, "Our gallant general fell on his left side, within a few feet of where I stood. Running up to him I inquired, 'Are you much hurt, Sir?' He placed his hand on his breast and made no reply and slowly sunk down."
EdJohnston (talk) 15:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]A more plausible account is given in a letter written at Brown’s Point on 15 October, and published in the Quebec Mercury of 27 October: “The York volunteers to whom he was particularly partial, have the honor of claiming his last words[;] mediately before he received his death wound he cried out, to some person near him to push on the York volunteers, which were the last words he uttered.”
I'm confused by the part where it says: A series of private half-penny tokens were issued bearing Brock's name and the title "The Hero of Upper Canada". This was somewhat ironic, as private copper tokens had become common in Canada due to initial distrust of "army bills", which were paper notes issued by Brock.
I first read this as meaning that the writer of the article found it ironic. However, it can be read as meaning that the makers of the tokens were satirists who were deliberately poking fun at Brock. I think this part should be either removed or changed and referenced. DrKay (talk) 08:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Following up on something claimed by Donald Graves in the December 2007 issue of Fortress Niagara, the newsletter for the Old Fort Niagara Association. on page 5, when referring to Joseph Willcocks, he writes "He [referring to Brock] was possibly assisted in this endeavour by the fact that both men were members of the Masonic lodge in Newark". Not that this would have been terribly surprising at the time for a man of Brock's position but has anyone else heard this suggested? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Natty10000 (talk • contribs) 22:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yesterday I found a collection of urban legends concerning Isaac Brock. They were inside a paragraph in a factual account of his burial, which seemed highly inappropriate. I moved it to the Legacy - In Canada section. Now that does not seem to me like a very good fit either. Rather than do more damage myself, I want to bring this to the attention of the people who have been putting this article together. Perhaps you could find a better place for it. --Geometricks (talk) 05:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The fact that his promotions occurred in a time of peace, and that Brock had no special political connections [...]" Did he have money? Back in those days, two-thirds of the promotions were by purchase; especially in peace time, the non-purchase promotions were very rare.
As can be seen from the following text in the article, his promotions have nothing to do with skill, at least not military skill:
"At the age of fifteen, Brock joined the 8th (The King's) Regiment of Foot on 8 March 1785 with the rank of ensign,[10] and was likely given responsibility for the regimental colours.[11] His elder brother, John, was already an officer in the same regiment. As was usual at the time, Brock's commission, was purchased. On 16 January 1790 he bought the rank of lieutenant,[12] and later that year he raised his own company of men.[13] As a result, he was promoted to captain (of an independent company of foot) on 27 January 1791,[14] and transferred to the 49th (Hertfordshire) Regiment of Foot on 15 June 1791.[4]"
"He purchased his majority on 27 June 1795,[16] and rejoined his regiment in 1796, when the rest of his men returned from the West Indies.[4]"
"On 28 October 1797 Brock purchased the rank of lieutenant-colonel [...]"84.23.155.84 (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This very accurate information has stood unchallenged for over a year. Isn't it time to remove the objectionable sentence? 84.23.155.84 (talk) 19:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In a recent edit the rumored miniature of Brock was restored. See #Image of Brock (above) for the 1985 article by Ludwig Kosche that debunks the claim that this is a likeness of Brock. According to Kosche, the young officer depicted in the miniature is wearing a campaign medal given to veterans of Waterloo, a battle where Brock was not present. I suggest the image be removed. EdJohnston (talk) 03:13, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Please change
"to honor the bicentennial of Brock's death"
to
"to honor the bicentenary of Brock's death"
The sentence requires the noun, not the adjective. Thank you.
Wikijaymac42wiki (talk) 13:05, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done Thanks for pointing that out
This might be included as a legacy or external link in the article. While the organization is small and not a historical society, it does show Brock is still relevant to current Canadians.
The Isaac Brock Society
The Isaac Brock Society consists of individuals who are concerned about the treatment by the United States government of US persons who live in Canada and abroad.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/about-the-isaac-brock-society/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.53.4.209 (talk) 23:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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I need to edit because of bad grammar Helborne (talk) 10:32, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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there is "in the order of the bath" that should be "of the order of the bath" 2605:E000:9149:A600:CC3E:AEF9:B84:F95F (talk) 08:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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"earned him a knighthood, membership in the Order of the Bath," should more accurately be reflected with the following: "he was appointed Knight of the Order of the Bath,"
the order of the bath is not one distinction but several levels of distinctions within the same order. Every person appointed to the order is not a knight but every person appointed to the order is of the order. 2605:E000:9149:A600:AD5C:6551:85D8:948D (talk) 04:11, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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You are appointed a Knight when you are "of the Order of the Bath" but never are you appointed a knight "in the order of the Bath" You are a knight of the Order", not in the order. There are various classes of knights. It is not a matter of a knighthood coming with the Order of the Bath. 2605:E000:9149:A600:9CA0:455C:F518:2D1 (talk) 00:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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The link for the 49th foot leads to the Royal Berkshire Regiment which would only have been correct after amalgamation in 1881. Brock's regiment was the "49th (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) (Hertfordshire) Regiment of Foot". He has mentioned in that article. I have tried to correct this but the multiple parentheses upset the code. Could someone with more experience please fix this? Humphrey Tribble (talk) 00:21, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have contact information for Brock's family in Guernsey i want to publish on the page that the family and friends still to this day celebrate his death by placing a wreath in the water in the harbour not sure how to add to the page though i'm am amateur Brock historian, went to Brock University and was the master of ceremonies, portraying and walking as Brock in the 1991 Niagra Grape and Wine Festival Parade Don4mancanada (talk) 20:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]