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What is the reason for deleting this section: Academic Response To Criticism? The criticism from Glyn Daniels, whose work was not in the field of mexican archeology, is allowed to remain in Wikipedia, while an expert in Mexican archeology, Clarence Weiant, has his response deleted. If there's no reason according to Wikipedia policy, then the removal of the Academic Response To Criticism should be considered vandalism. - =Academic Response To Criticism= - In response to Glyn Daniels' review, Dr. Clarence Weiant, who worked in Mexican archeology for the National Sandmadd (talk) 18:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Hi, I've just added a little bit here, including a bibliography of some of his work as author and editor. This likely can be rendered more complete and a much fuller article written in accord with wikipedia standards. Gallador 01:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, wait, this guy's book has only been reviewed once in a reputable journal, in which it was dismissed as Afrocentric by people with a very clear ethnocentric agenda of their own? And only once, anywhere, do we hear anything about a reputable person endorsing his work? The book is very tame. There is not nearly as much ideological slant as found in the average American history text book. There's not even enough academic conversation on the topic to say one way or another, whether his claims are true. It's just been ignored. Mainstream science really seems unwilling to discuss the idea of African cultures ever having been as "advanced" as medieval European culture...any mention of alternative possibilities, no matter how much evidence is offered, gets jumped on as "Afrocentric". Anyone who built a good boat could potentially have crossed the ocean to trade from Africa to South America. Ocean currents favor this. The voyage would have been easier to survive than one made in colder northern waters, and many African civilizations had highly developed ships long before the Western Europeans. It's hard to see how the crossing never would have been made, even by accident. You've got people on one side saying it never happened, and people on the other side saying it definitely happened. Can we just look at the evidence available, and reason a little, and say that it probably could have happened, instead?
If his father's surname was Obermuller, where did the name "Van Sertima" come from? Sounds a little phoney to me. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 12:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
His books say Ivan Van Sertima. He also used that name in many of his lectures. so whatever his father's name was is irrelevant. HIS name is what he says it is. vap (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a link to his obituary confirming both his name and his father's name. [1] --Nowa (talk) 17:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently his father's full name was Frank Obermuller Van Sertima [2]
His surname is always spelled with a capital V: “Van Sertima”. How can we change this article title to properly reflect that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stewf (talk • contribs) 12:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't the article read that he was a Guinese historian, rather than a British? vap (talk) 15:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He was born in Guyana, he lived studies and worked in London and was a scholar for many years in the US. He could lay claim to all three designations.--Nowa (talk) 17:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see how this article passes WP:BIO.
Sertima doesn't seem to pass WP:PROF, and while his Olmec theory is notable, we already have an article about it, at Olmec alternative origin speculations. I see no need for a biography article on top of that, what this article is doing is
Just because somebody wrote a book worth covering on Wikipedia doesn't mean they pass WP:BIO. This is a very widespread misconception. --dab (𒁳) 08:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dr. Ivan Sertima's contributions include so much more than one book: THEY CAME BEFORE COLUMBUS. He was an associate professor at Rutgers, a poet as well as author of many publications about subjects other than Africans in precolumbian America. Dr. Sertima was widely admired (note the viewings of his videos on Youtube) and referenced in other works such as LIES MY TEACHER TOLD ME by James Loewen. There are so many people of dubious distinction whose bio pages are never challenged. Dr. Van Sertima has more than earned his bio page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandmadd (talk • contribs) 03:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC) (Truth777333 (talk) 09:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) I completely agree. This article is extremely biased and it needs to reflect neutral point of view. He is known for far more notable works than the Olmec Head theory which seems to be the highlight of this article as it stands.(Truth777333 (talk) 09:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC))[reply]
This article needs a total rewrite by someone expert in African anthropologies. In its current form, it's little more than a criticism forum targeting a minor area of van Sertima's work and acting as a platform for broader anti-African hate. The suggestion that van Sertima is primarily known for his Ancient Egyptian exploration of the New World theory is absurd to anyone knowledgeable in the field.
I've removed a few of the scare quotes and stray parenthetical commentary, and also a suggestion that the African Renaissance, a major contemporary political concept, is incorrectly named. Hopefully an expert can produce a fuller, balanced article soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.224.131 (talk) 00:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is a complaint about balance (and balance is good), but how do you balance a scholar who identifies African origins based on apparent broad flat noses? (as if all Africans have flat noses) So it will be hard to find RS from outside Afrocentrism to say positive things about this work. But using another pseudo historian to vouch for the work of a pseudo historian is not the soln. I suggest we find a nuanced critique of his work point by point (if it exist) as opposed to just praise it blindly or wash it out blindly. And we should not in this search exclude other Afrocentrics after all there is no ban on any one ideology on Wikipedia. --Inayity (talk) 16:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Changing the lead without discussion here is not appropriate. Removing material (again) that has been replaced without discussion here first is highly inappropriate. The material Truth777333 has attempted to remove twice:
He was best known for his Olmec alternative origin speculations, a brand of pre-Columbian contact theory, which he proposed in his book They Came Before Columbus (1976). While his Olmec theory has "spread widely in African American community, both lay and scholarly", it was mostly ignored in Mesoamericanist scholarship, or else dismissed as Afrocentric pseudohistory to the effect of "robbing native American cultures".
The edit summaries:
removed redundant information. This information is already mentioned under the paragraph entitled :Reception. Therefore no need to have it twice
I insist this is not included twice. It creates an unbalanced biased view of the scholar. don't agree that this information has to be in the article twice. What is the next step for compromise
My edit summaries when I restored the information:
"Summary belongs in lead"
"once reverted do not replace material, take it to talk page see WP:BRD, as for content of lead see WP:LEAD
The material belongs in the lead per WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.
Note the lead should contain content which is covered in the remainder of the article thus a summary in the lead is appropriate per MOS. The lead should include why the subject is notable (precisely what "he is best known for covers). The view WP presents of the scholar should reflect that of reliable sources and conform to WP:FRINGE: A Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable than it is.; Wikipedia is not and must not become the validating source for non-significant subjects. and WP:PSCI: The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included. This is precisely what the lead does by describing the lay popularity of his ideas and the mainstream scientific viewpoint. Read WP:NPOV and see what it really means, an editors ideas of bias are not what counts, what reliable sources say and the majority scientific viewpoint hold are what WP relies on. See WP:DUE and WP:VALID in particular. - - MrBill3 (talk) 09:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(Truth777333 (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) Based on the comments above, this article was regarded as unbalanced and in need of a re-write which I have attempted to do. I dont see anyone else trying to fix the clearly biased article.I am the one that continues to get pushback every time I do so. How is this not a forum to discuss our personal opinions. Thats exactly what I see happening here. I have included factual information. This article is biased. Anyone reading it can depict that. He is known for more things than the Olmec theory so if those other things aren't mentioned in the lead then why do we have to explicitly include what his critics say about him in the lead. If this is wikipedia policy, then it needs to hold true for all articles and not just Ivan Van Sertima's. Particularly because it is already very badly written.(Truth777333 (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) (Truth777333 (talk) 10:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) In addition, I would also like to note that I am in complete agreement with the comment made from "Untitled " Mainstream science really seems unwilling to discuss the idea of African cultures ever having been as "advanced" as medieval European culture...any mention of alternative possibilities, no matter how much evidence is offered, gets jumped on as "Afrocentric". Wikipedia continues to throw out terms such as verifiable evidence when convenient and yet , there was only 1 review of his book that received this criticism. How does 1 review substantiate it being pseudoscientific. Only when african writers speak of something contrary to the established view, does Wikipedias policy characterize it as unverifiable and treat it as dismissive. This does not align with wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. This is particularly true because scientific evidence has evolved to the point where once "mainstream views" have been proven false. There has been countless examples of this. Wikipedia's articles need to allow for this. (Truth777333 (talk) 10:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC))[reply]
Mainstream science is what WP reflects, that's clearly spelled out in policy. Lack of acceptance, consideration and discussion by the field are also what substantiates something as pseudoscience. The material in the lead is supported by RS, if you wish to add other content provide reliable sources for it. General ideas about WP and an editors personal opinion about them are not relevant to editing this article. Objections to policy and to WP:What Wikipedia is and what WP WP:ISNOT are discussions for other forums (if you want to change WP one article is not the place). If the views of Sertima are supported by "scientific evidence [that] has evolved" and the once mainstream veiws have been proven false, present the reliable sources that say so. Scientific consensus does indeed evolve, if it has regarding Sertima, then present the RS that says so. If not see WP:FRINGE and the policies clearly explained above. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:52, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(Truth777333 (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) Walter Neves ia an archaeologist from the University of Sao Paolo, has taken extensive skull measurements from dozens of skulls, including the oldest, a young woman who has been named Lucia. My reason for bringing him up is because he has proven that the oldest skull is not mongoloid. "The measurements show that Lucia was anything but mongoloid," he says. hence there is evidence that disputes what Ivan van Sertima's critics suggested about theer not bieng any african presence in America. That was my point. I do have information from books which further support this finding. However I provided you with links to articles on teh web because I figured it would be an expedient way for yu to access tehinformation quickly and I didnt feel it was necessary to provide such information in the form of an attachment to this talk page.I still do not udnerstand why other articles do not have to include this ifnormation in the lead. This is not consistent with others who are also attributed to teh olmec alternative theory. It is definetly racially motivated to explicitly portary the black author as such and not to include this same critisms in teh lead of the white authors.(Truth777333 (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) (Truth777333 (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC))In accordnace with Wikipedia's policy for the content of the lead : Note the lead should contain content which is covered in the remainder of the article thus a summary in the lead is appropriate per MOS. The lead should include why the subject is notable (precisely what "he is best known for covers). Why cant we just input : "He was best known for his Olmec alternative origin speculations, a brand of pre-Columbian contact theory, which he proposed in his book They Came Before Columbus (1976)" and leave out the second sentence which states what the critics stated specifically. We already go into grave detail about what the critics say and why later on in the article. Is this not an appropriate compromise? (Truth777333 (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)) (edit conflict)Neves is not saying what you think he is saying. You might want to read Australoid race which makes it a bit clearer. This is still the 'we all came from Africa" idea. The mainstream out of Africa hypothesis is that many many tens of thousands of years ago Africans moved out of Africa, Neves thinks some of them lived in Asia for tens of thousands of years and then some of those migrated to America. He doesn't call them Africans and he certainly doesn't think Africans migrated to the Americas. And you are in danger of suggesting that some editors are racists, I'd drop that quickly. And see for instance Zecharia Sitchin which has a very similar lead.[reply]
My deletion of extraneous information about Clarence Weiant in the Notes section was reversed. The reason given was that the Note was "relevant to his comment on archaeology". However, there is nothing in the Notes section or anywhere else on this page about context for Glyn Daniel. Glyn Daniel lacks the background for criticizing Van Sertima. Specifically, Glyn Daniel never published in the field of pre-Columbian history. Neither did he conduct original research/archeological digs in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica as did Clarence Weiant. Yet, Clarence Weiant is the only critic disparaged on Van Sertima's page- a violation of Wikipedia's pillars. All sources cited on this page should be treated equally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandmadd (talk • contribs) 23:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Journal of Current Anthropology article cited is a dubious reliable source because of its position on race. When we talk about race we talk about biological markers like phenotype and dna to identify people. People of the African diaspora on the African continent and throughout the world are visibly identified as black and of African descent by their phenotype. No academic would issue a paper or journal arguing that a contemporary African-descended person with broad African features (flat nose, full lips, prognathism) is not black and has no African ancestry. Yet, when academics see ancient Africoid faces in unexpected places-like on Egyptian icons and Olmec sculptures- the models can’t be black and African. All of a sudden, the existence of race is brought into question. If the full lips, flat noses, and prognathism of the Olmec heads look like black people, you’re wrong, Journal contributors claim. They might as well ask, “Who are you going to believe, us or your lying eyes?” The Journal of Current Anthropology article also contains this bizarre footnote “If, perchance, some Africans had landed in the New World, rather than being regarded as gods, they would probably have been sacrificed and eaten.” Refuting that assertion. dna studies from companies like 23andme reveal Mexicans have some dna from sub-Saharan Africa. Additionally, genealogist Lyman D. Platt has found the sub-Saharan Africa admixture to be widely dispersed throughout the Mexican population. It’s clear that when Africans and Native Americans encountered each other-they mated! Ironically, the mixture of African and Native American bloodlines is on full display in the journal’s pictures of two women from the Olmec area and Chiapias. For the Journal of Current Anthropology then to accuse Ivan Van Sertima of ‘robbing Native Americans and trampling on their self respect or self-esteem is unprofessional and unseemly. Sandmadd (talk) 00:57, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Many entities, including the police and courts, consider private companies to be valid sources for dna information. The problems with 23andme have nothing to do with the information they found in testing Mexican subjects. But, since you want genetic information from academic sources, Henry Louis Gates of Harvard University has investigated the genetic makeup of Mexico's population and he has found Mexico's population to contain a mixture of genes from subsahara Africa along with Native American and European genes. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/black-in-latin-america/ Sandmadd (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that when dna testing reveals mixed bloodlines-matings- between African and Amerindians in Mexico, it is beyond bizarre for the Journal of Current Anthropology to state that Africans would have been sacrificed and eaten in encounters between the two races. This was part of my argument that the Journal's article cited on Van Sertima's page is a dubious RS.Sandmadd (talk) 16:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is the exact quote from the Journal's article "Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs. It is footnote #29:
"If, perchance, some Africans had landed in the New World, rather than being regarded as gods they would probably have been sacrificed and eaten."
There is no evidence that Native Americans sacrificed and ate the Africans they encountered. The Journal shouldn't print such a thing if they have no proof. The dna tests are proof that Native Americans and Africans in Mexico had another kind of relationship.Sandmadd (talk) 21:30, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In response to your assertion that there were no Africans in the Americas before 1492 (I’m correcting your typo), I grabbed my copy of Alexander Von Wuthenau’s UNEXPECTED FACES IN ANCIENT AMERICA, 1500B.C.-A.D. 1500 . I was going to talk about the dozens of pre-columbian sculptures in Von Wuthenau’s collection that show bold African features. But, then I realized that you would say they aren’t African/black. I realized that the multitude of evidence from various disciplines will not change your mind that there was a pre-columbian African presence in the Americas. If you don’t want to see, you won’t see.(talk)
This line means All of Van Setima's work was criticized by ALL academics?[weasel words] or it it some? Is this the case? he wrote a book called 1986, Great African Thinkers, Cheikh Anta Diop was that also criticized. I think the section needs a little more balance. As It seems to carry too much of his detractors POV. I would like to see more balance. --Inayity (talk) 07:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is why I am having a problem. African origin of Mesoamerican culture? is that what he said cuz I did not actually read the book. After reading this article I am actually Not sure what he is saying. Did he say African created mesoamerican culture, or did he say Africans influence a culture that was already in existence. Just like Rome was influenced by Greece? I think I would like to hear from someone who read the book. B/c there is a world of difference and I am not clear from reading. Fringe or not, we must still represent what is what. --Inayity (talk) 14:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Of course most Afro-Centrists agree with him. That's almost part of the definition of being Afrocentric. And who is telling anyone they were discovered by Columbus? You sure that's still happening? I know that my history textbook in school (not university) in the early or mid 50s didn't even claim that Columbus was the first European, that credit was given to the Vikings. User:Maunus what do you mean by know for Black Athena, are you thinking of Bernal? Dougweller (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The result of the move request was: Move unopposed. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 06:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ivan van Sertima → Ivan Van Sertima – The preponderance of sources indicate that Prof. Van Sertima's name is spelled with a capitalized "Van". —jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 08:02, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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