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In English, we don't usually put the ruler's family name. Just to repeat myself. Again. JHK
I'm pretty sure the Poles didn't call him John; what was his original name, Jan? I think it should at least be mentioned in the article. Jeronimo
Lithuanians call him Jonas. So the name have to be translated (Poles also dont't write Elisabeth 2, but Elżbieta II) or write it also in lithuanian an ruthenian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karolis-lt (talk • contribs) 11:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ermm...all respect to JHK, now departed, but in English we very usually call this fellow "John Sobieski". I think that for elected, non-dynastic Kings like the Polish ones, the surnames should be included when appropriate - as in this instance. johnk20:02, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
Jeronimo, mayhaps the Poles didn't translate his name Jan into John, but this is an english-language encyclopedia, and the English name should be provided, correct?
-Alex, 12.220.157.9304:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC).[reply]
I have just been watching Michael Portillo's Great Railway Journeys and, travelling in the Highlands, he investigates the history of tartan and two Sobieski-Stuart brothers claimed to have an old book on Scottish tartans which was used to reintroduce them after they were banned after the Battle of Culloden. As it turns out, this book was fake.
I decided to investigate this Polish-Scottish connection, dating back to Bonnie Prince Charlie as it seems a very interesting one. He was the son of the Old Pretender, Prince James, son of exiled Stuart King, James II & VII and his wife Maria Clementina Sobieska and great-grandson of John III Sobieski, most famous for the victory over the Ottoman Turks in the 1683 Battle of Vienna. It is John Sobieski who features as the hetman and who makes the grand entrance at the funeral of Michal Wolodeyowski at the end of Henryk Sienkiewicz's historical novel Fire in the Steppe. Ivankinsman (talk) 18:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When was Jan III Sobieski elected the new monarch of the Commonwealth ?
The infobox and the main text have different dates for the Jan III Sobieski's election as the new monarch of the Commonwealth. Was it May 19 or May 21 ? --199.71.174.10000:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article was moved to the Polish name in December 2005, along with several other articles. Many of the others have since been moved back to English names and this article should be moved back too, to the English name of "John III Sobieski", as it appears in English-language reference works [1], per the Wikipedia guideline of Use English. Please indicate below if you support or oppose this move. --Elonka04:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Well, if I remember well we already decided on Jan III Sobieski because the name was much more popular in English. Google Books Jan 297 [2] John 295 [3], Google hits Jan 95,800 [4] John 14,000 [5]--SylwiaS | talk07:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If ones excludes "hotel", these 95,800 hits are reduced to 19,000 [6] , or less when "street" or other place names are also excluded. According to Google counts, "Jan III Sobieski" would be a good name for a traveller's guide to Poland then ... -- Mattheaddiscuß! O 16:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Among the first results for Jan, impartial sites like "gov.pl" pop up, pages titled『Jan III Sobieski: Listy do królowej Marysieńki』(do we have to consider that english?), and coins sold on ebay. For John, sites like britannica.com oder .edu sites show up first. So better stop beating this dead horse. -- Mattheaddiscuß! O 06:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a minute, the first two sentences of the very first result for Jan deserves an honourable mention:『“He is a perfect oval which from a distance looks like a very large egg stood on the small end,” wrote one French observer, as he watched the Polish king, Jan III Sobieski. Blessed with a large head, enormous belly, and small feet, Jan Sobieski did indeed look something like an egg.』-- Mattheaddiscuß! O 06:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you simply bring some evidence that John is more often used than Jan in English? BTW That page with Letters to Queen Marysieńka has his biography in English. I can't help it that people often look it up.--SylwiaS | talk11:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support Should be moved back to English name. If it gets left here, there will be two monarchs of Poland called John, and one call Jan (this one). Doesn't really make sense. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ)09:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As soon as I saw "Jan" and "Sobieski", "Polish Monarchs" popped right into my head. "John" and "III" meant I was fumbling for my List of Popes. Per Sylwia, Jan is the common name. — MrDolomite | Talk22:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would, however support any combination of redirects which take all the various Jan/John/Sobieski/KingOfPoland and still get a reader where they need to go. — MrDolomite | Talk22:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I really hate Google tests as a justification for "common usage in English", when we're talking about an individual who already has entire articles in major English-language encyclopedias. Here's a list of what I have easily available at the moment. If you have others, please feel free to add to the list. --Elonka16:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The constellation Scutum Sobieski was named after John III Sobieski. The trivia section speculated that the name Sobieski was dropped since no other person/house kept it's constellation person/house connection. That's speculation – fascinating – but not proper for an encyclopedia. For talk page's it might be OK, however, since some editor might know a doctor, that actually know an old pergament where astronomer X writes to astronomer Y, saying that "this family stuff in the stars is unacceptable, I will speak for removing the name sobieski", etc. (just speculation – don't take this for truth, please!). Now speculation alternatives:
the name Scutum Sobieski was too long and awkward, and since there was no other shield in the sky, the astronomers decided Scutum was enough,
But ... Stars named after individuals are seldom older than from the 19th century, and almost exclusively called after their "discoverers". Earlier star names named after persons ... well ... the practical joke names Rotanev and Sualocin (allegedly after Niccolò_Cacciatore), and then Cor Caroli. Only Cor Caroli after a non-astronomer Charles II of England, which makes person names after non-astronomers among the stars incredibly rare!Rursusdeclamavi; 17:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone tell me if Sobieski ever lost a military engagement? I checked all the articles that wikipedia has on his battles and they're all victories. I wasn't able to find much on the smaller battles so I can't tell what their result was. Help is much appreciated. JRWalko20:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Do the depictions of him wearing the triumphant commander's laurel wreath start after the Battle of Vienna? It seems a safe bet, but I'd like to be sure before mentioning it in the article. —Charles P._(Mirv)14:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
She has the same last name, but I don't think her Jewish descent as it pertains to bagels warrants inclusion in this article. Any assertion of lineage to Jan III Sobieski belongs in Leelee's bio. Rstandefer16:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the beef. "Jan III Sobieski" Google Book Search yields 1087 results. These are English language titles of course. Although the same Google Book Search yields 1385 results for John III Sobieski, I would argue that, since the numbers are comparable, Wikipedia ought to promote the name most reflective of both English and Polish scientific literature. --Poeticbenttalk15:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What consensus are you talking about? Please read the writing on the wall. There was no consensus, just a vote that went both ways and could be interpreted both ways depending on who contributed and why. I suspect however, that you wouldn't be making it difficult for the others if you actually cared.
Also: I would like to stress the importance of guidelines provided for your consideration at Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Quote: “Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another.”
Somebody, please, write in the opening line that almost half of all English language titles speak of Jan III Sobieski instead of John III Sobieski. User:Matthead carefully removed that fact from the opening paragraph which speaks volumes about his intentions. --Poeticbenttalk16:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jan III Sobieski (Ministry of Foreigns Affairs of Poland [12])
Before my edits, the article violated WP:MOS#Article_titles which says "If possible, the article’s title is the subject of the first sentence of the article, for example, “This Manual of Style is a style guide”". And besides, what were your unilateral move and edits, if not "for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another"? -- Mattheaddiscuß! O 00:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please don’t play dumb with me, Matthead. One look at your contributions proves that you have no interest in Polish history and the only reason you reverted all my good faith edits is to get back at Polish editors with whom you’ve been edit-warring for months over a couple of unrelated articles. A number of editors objected to John III Sobieski name change (see above), therefore my move was far from “unilateral”. It was inspired by comments from those who care about Polish history and are poised to promote it from the the same perspective.
When I changed the name of the article to Jan III Sobieski as per Ministry of Foreigns Affairs of Poland, I also included in the opening paragraph: “Jan III Sobieski, also referred to as John III Sobieski,” to indicate that both are established names in English. You removed that alternative name. You also removed all phrases and captions referring to English name Jan Sobieski, like “Monument to King Jan III Sobieski”, etc. You know better than that. --Poeticbenttalk15:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Support. As explained earlier, both names are used in English on equal footing and both are used by highly reputable sources. Wikipedia stands in the forefront of change though, allowing for names acceptable from multilingual perspective. The most important difference coming from the proposed name-change reflects the guidelines established at the source, promoted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Poland among numerous English language scholars who devote their life to the study of Polish history, Norman Davies being one of them. Besides, we are far from setting the precedence here. Please see other prominent Poles whose names could hardly be questioned, like Jan Długosz, Jan Matejko, Ignacy Jan Paderewski, Jan Kochanowski, Jan Zamoyski, Jan Potocki, Jan Piotr Sapieha, Jan Wielopolski, etc. The name John derives from the Latin Johanne (see: John (name)), simplified from Johannes. Seventeenth Century English texts still spelt the name Iohn (compare the Romanian Ion). Alternative and other language forms are: Yohanna (arabic: يوحنا), Eoin (Irish language derivation of Seán), Evan (Welsh a pre-Christian Celtic), Jevan (variation of Evan), Giovanni, Gianni (Italian), and Jan (Norwegian, Dutch, and Polish). It is my belief that the name Jan III Sobieski will serve the article better. --Poeticbenttalk15:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. Polish monarch articles need to be mass-moved by name, not individually. Not against using modern orthographically Polish names for Polish monarchs in principle, irrespective of their popularity or lack of it, just needs to be consistent and must not mislead people into thinking that monarchs had only Polish culture, when indeed some were international in culture, or often bi-cultural Polish/German, Polish/Lithuanian, etc. Not sure if this vote has even been registered. In this case, it is clear that John is primarily Polish, but I'm opposing solely because such a move would result in some Polish Johns being John, while this guy would be Jan. Does it even make that much difference? John's an international name, not a name particularly associated with any other culture (i.e. German culture), and most English speakers will think of Jan not as Polish, but as Scandinavian. Anyways, properly propose a vote on all the Johns and I may change my vote. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose English names for historical monarchs, regardless of what the treatment is in Poland or the English form given by Polish agencies. Charles04:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Seriously? An article about a baby who died at two years old? He wasn't even the heir to the throne, since Poland was an elective monarchy. john k (talk) 18:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a copy of the ahnentafel which was removed from the article, as seen in this edit. While I agree with the removal as so many persons are not notable, I have included here so that other editors can view it decide if those notable relations should be incorporated into the text. — MrDolomite • Talk20:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A legend of the origins of the bagel refers to John III Sobieski as the king to whom a Jewish baker gave the very first bagel in commemoration of his victory at Vienna in 1683. The round shape of the bagel was said to resemble the stirrups of Sobieski and his mounted warriors.
Nothing against Jan Sobieski, but this sounds bogus. Cf. the entry on bagel: "Contrary to common legend, the bagel was not created in the shape of a stirrup to commemorate the victory of Poland's King Jan III Sobieski over the Ottoman Turks in the Battle of Vienna in 1683."
I read somewhere that the word "bagel" is etymologically related to the German verb beugen, to bend.
Also it should be noted that the entry in the bagel article has a [citation needed] tag in it, while there are actually quite number of sources which make the connection between the bagel and Sobieski [24]. True or not, it is a common origins story and I'm not seeing any sources which definitely disprove this particular one (of course personally I don't think this is the kind of thing that can actually be known).VolunteerMarek22:03, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, my Webster's New World Dictionary says "bagel" is related to etymologically to both Bügel (stirrup) and beugen — Bügel the noun presumably stemming from beugen the verb.
Also for what it's worth, the German Wiki entry says, in translation: "The name of the baked good probably stems from Middle High German bougel (ring) or from the Yiddish beigen (to bend)."
Footnote: In my Warsaw days, I used to buy bagels from a stand in an underground pedestrian passageway beneath Al. Ujazdowskie, near the north end of Łazienki Park. They had more body than the Americanized version here. Sca (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Tak, that's what they looked like, all right. But they weren't totally hard, like pretzels are here (although we also have a soft pretzel variant sold at stands, but they are very soft). Sca (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The connection of the name to Yiddish or even German makes perfect sense but it doesn't really contradict the (true, probably invented) Sobieski legend.VolunteerMarek16:18, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted that last addition - though I have no problem with it if a source can be found. Many of the sources I linked to above seem to take the legend at face value.16:44, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Portrait of John III Sobieski (Anonymous, 4th quarter of XVII century)
Hello, user Oliszydlowski reverted this picture when I added it to this article. Oliszydlowski, I realize that you have not yet had the opportunity to realise why that picture was added that you reverted. Maybe you didn't realize we are trying to nominate this picture Portrait of John III Sobieski as a Featured Picture. The same way there are Featured articles, there are Featured pictures too. That would be Wikipedia:Featured Pictures.
The painting is a google file and is from the project Google art project, that deliver high-resolution images of artworks in collaboration with the museums. The Google Art Project is noted for its accuracy in the depictions of the artworks. This one was comming directly from the museum, and has a good chance to make it as a very good scan of high quality of a notable and important person. I am familiar with the requirements.
I tried to add a file that had a fair fighting chance, because I know how pictures are judged and what it takes to became a FP. The picture that in the lead and the other pictures in the article would get quickly Oppose votes for a number of reasons. It is about how pictures are judged. I'm afraid that I if you remove the picture, we are not going to make it to nominate a painting of John III Sobieski as Featured picture. That would be a great pity. Please add back the picture to the article. If I don't get any response I will add it back for all the reasons above. Hafspajen (talk) 14:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
After World War II, a statue of John III Sobieski was "repatriated" to Gdańsk from Lwów (a city now in Ukraine currently named Lviv). The statue overlooks a little park at the old Gdańsk City Hall museum.
After the Battle of Vienna, the newly delineated ConstellationofScutum (Latin for shield) was originally named Scutum Sobiescianum by the astronomer Johannes Hevelius, in honor of John III Sobieski. While there are a few stars named after non-astronomers, this is the only constellation named after a real non-astronomer, moreover, one who was still alive when the constellation was named.
A legend of the origins of the bagel refers to John III Sobieski as the king to whom a Jewish baker gave the very first bagel in commemoration of his victory at Vienna in 1683. The round shape of the bagel was said to resemble the stirrups of Sobieski and his mounted warriors.
The EuroCity train route between Vienna and Warsaw (trains 104/105) are named after Sobieski.
A fragrance named Bouquet Sobieski created in 1908 by Polish American perfumer John Blocki[1]
There is a modern proposition from non-Polish European newspapers to name the A2 highway in Poland after Sobieski.[2]
Sobieski, a vodka brand named after His Majesty John III
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