This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Prussian uprisings article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lithuania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lithuania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LithuaniaWikipedia:WikiProject LithuaniaTemplate:WikiProject LithuaniaLithuania articles
The following information of dubious relevance to the subject of this article has been removed:
Monte saw his friend Hirzhals from Magdeburg taken prisoner and saved his life twice from being chosen as victim to 'thank the gods'. But when the selection fell on Hirzhals for the third time, he did not ask his friend, Monte, again, to spare him. He submitted to his fate. The Prussians, according to ancient Prussian customs, tied Hirzhals on top of a horse and placed both on top of a pile of wood. As the flames of the pyre surrounded him, Monte consoled him with the words the gods will reward you.
During the Interregnum, after the death of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, great confusion ensued in Europe and everywhere people sought to place themself in the best positions possible. Alfons of Castile and Richard of Cornwall were both vying to be king and emperor of Germany. The pope tried by calling many crusades, but could not handle the situation.
Unable to capture cities or lay siege to the Order castles, the Prussians started losing the fight. By 1272, Herkus Monte was forced to withdraw with a small group of his soldiers to the forests of southern Prussia. Within a year, he was captured and hanged.
Skomand took refuge in the neighboring area of Zemgale for some time, before returning and accepting baptism. The Teutonic Order let him live at burg Balga for some years, then gave him the town of Groß-Steegen,where he lived with his sons, Rukals, Gedetes and Galms until he died in 1285. He was buried in the town of Kanditten. When Skomand resigned as leader in Sudauen, Skomands former companion, the noble Wadole took over. He lived near Lyck and he fell in battle with Mangold von Sternberg. There many fine men on both sides fell. The knight Ritter Ludwig von Liebenzell had to be left behind, when he was severly wounded. Close to death, the Sudovians brought him to their new leader, duke Kanthegerde. He knew well of Liebenzell from the time when Skomand was leader and he took him into his home and nursed him back to health. Soon a new crusading army arrived under Konrad von Thierberg. Kanthegerde stood infront of the Teutonic Master and instead of fighting he had himself and his 1600 Sudovian warriers baptised. They received land in a corner of Samland, the Sudauer Winkel. The fighting of the pagan Sudovians continued under the Noble Gedete. From the other side the related Yatvingians were being attacked by Danylo of Halych as well. Prussians could not win against the armies of all of christianised Europe and they escaped to Lithuania for some years. Then the Noble Gedete with his 1500 men returned to Prussia, accepted baptism and received much property near Königsberg. The last of the Sudovian leaders was Skurdo. The Teutonic Order had many native Prussians in their army as well and Skurdo realised, that Prussians were fighting Prussians. He had the choice to either get baptised or escape. He took his men to Lithuania and some generations later those 'Lithuanians' returned to Prussia. In 1274, the last pagan Prussian rebellion ended and Catholic Europe commisioned and aided the Teutonic Order in many more attempt to conquer the rest of the Baltic tribes.
Europe in the meanwhile was being attacked from the Far East from Tatar Mongol troops. Russia was occupied by them for twohundred years. Later [Ottoman]] Turks came conquering any country not sufficiently fortified, which only a combined church hierachy could furnish, in order to be able to resists. A combined force loyal to the emperor kept the imperial city of Vienna from being captured.
(Checklist removed - after recent changes it is not needed any more)
A few specific points:
The lead section is too long and should be broken up into a smaller lead paragraph and a new section (called "Background" or something like that) which would describe in detail the events leading up to the first uprising - and therefore help place all events within a clearer context and assist in maintaining neutrality. This background section could possibly take some of the content of the "First Uprising" section (eg. the three points at the start of that section).
The lead just looks too long due to large map and table. But I will try to come up with a background section. Renata19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The conquest timeline at the start looks disjointed from the rest of the article. It should also be specified in the table that it is referring to Teutonic conquests.
The prose needs some work. There are no major problems, but they should still be cleaned up in order to reach GA-status. I can help out a bit with that if you like.
I would not qualify them as "a lot," but at least 4 links will be gone. I am planning on writing articles about the leaders of Great Uprising. Renata19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Infobox Military Conflict should be introduced, along with a campaign box to list all of the battles involved (since most of them already have articles of their own).
I was thinking about it. However, there are serious problems. Infobox would be pretty much empty as nothing is really known about strength or casualties, leaders varied from one year to another... As for campaign box: I cannot guarantee that it would be complete. See, the main source pretty much retells what Peter von Dusburg wrote in his chronicles in modern English. It desperately lacks any kind of reliable analysis or clear timeline or attempt to systemize the events. Renata19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. It was just a thought - the boxes are not necessary and, if they would be too empty here, not worth it. - 52 Pickup20:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article appears to rely heavily upon a single reference (Urban). This makes it hard to tell if the article as a whole is balanced.
You don't know how much I hate to rely on William Urban... but I have no choice as I cannot find any other sources that would give this much detail. But I am not sure what kind of balance are you talking about? Renata19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The balance issue here is the possible bias by Urban himself - but the judgement on that is best left to you. It is unfortunate that there are no other detailed sources, but if there are none, then so be it. Are there any good sources given by Urban? - 52 Pickup20:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I tried as much as possible to use Urban for just events&facts because his analysis and judgements are... hm... err... Whenever possible I used other sources for generalizations and showing trends. However, looking for biases one has to really understand that absolutely all data on these events comes from the Teutonic Knights or other Christians. So right there the history is biased. Most research about the Teutons are in German (Urban mentions something about Udo Arnold and Quellen und Studien zur Geschichte des Deutschen Ordens as quite recent academic research). Renata05:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Since you have made it clear that this possible bias exists in the available information, then I'm happy with that. - 52 Pickup20:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The section on the second uprising should be broken down into subsections to help make it more readable.
The Polish and Lithuanian aspects should perhaps be expanded upon. For example, apart from Świętopełk's loss in 1248, were there any further implications within the Polish kingdom after the end of the first uprising? A Christian duke supporting pagans upon which the Pope had effectively declared war must have been a very serious matter.
I wish I knew or had sources. I don't have a clue what was happening in Poland (except that its participation in the crusade declined). Świętopełk signed a peace treaty with the Knights in 1253 and kept quiet untill his death. His son made a brief appearance in the second uprising. I thorougly lack good data on how Lithuanians helped the Prussians, and just how much Sudovians were involved. I tried asking historians specializing in history of Lithuania (ca. 1200-1400), but so far did not get a reply. Renata19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This point here is more my curiosity than part of the GA-review. If this cannot be expanded upon, then no problem. But if so, I think it would make the article even more interesting and give it a more "global" view. - 52 Pickup20:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see. That would be really interesting, but Urban discusses global events in some detail, but only what effect they had on the uprisings and not vice versa. I know only about one effect of the uprisings: they delayed Lithuanian crusade and gave time for Lithuanian state to form. Renata05:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps an "Aftermath" section (or something like that) is needed - not only to answer questions like the previous point, but also to separate the 3 minor uprisings from the long-term effects of crushing the uprisings (Ostsiedlung, etc).
Well, I was thinking about that too :) and I decided against it because then both sections would be too short. Besides the last 3 uprisings pretty much is the aftermath. If you could find me some sources dealing with what was happening with Prussians after 1300, I would be happy to expand the "aftermath." See, all books I know just make a jump from the uprisings to the 16-17th century when Prussians became extinct. Writers then move on to discuss the Lithuanian crusade, and don't pay any attention to Prussians. Renata19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, I have no such references. If an "aftermath" section would be too short, then probably best to do without. - 52 Pickup20:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good work. There is only one thing that needs to be fixed now. This passage is a bit confusing (section 3.4): "When Christians retired for the night, one half of the Prussian army crossed the river in a distance. The Knights grabbed their guns to defend against the other half of Prussians who charged across the river, when they were attacked from the rear by the first half. I can't quite follow the sequence of events, and what "guns" are you referring to? Could you please say this in a different way? - 52 Pickup20:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. As a side note, I'd recommend adding some relevant external links if available, so readers can seek other sites for more information. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams202005:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am struck by the overlap between this article and Prussian Crusade. Gee, just look at the ledes of both. Altogether the articles cover so much of the same ground. Why the uprisings? The crusade. Why continue the crusade? The uprisings. So much intertwined, why not merge the articles? Shenme (talk) 03:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can provide the date of creation of the sculpture shown?
