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Is the FAQ released under a compatible license with Wikipedia?
Questions about tantra. Add your quistions and we will try to answer them in the article.
How do you learn to feel your spritual energies ?
Where/how can your find people who pratise tantra ?
What is the names of the tantra vedas. And what year are they from ?
Is there a good reason for writing the adjective as "tantrik" in this article and not "tantric"? Google suggests that the latter is much more common. Searches for the former spelling lead to an American phallic cult that does not seem to be representative of the main body of knowledge.
Solri 08:45 Jul 25, 2002 (PDT) I've changed to "tantric", though both spellings are common. If anything, I prefer "tantric" since it makes it obvious that we're dealing with an English adjective derived from the Sanskrit, not an actual Sanskrit word. I've revised the article extensively - I hope I haven't been too brutal.
I find this quite funny: "According to John Woodroffe, the foremost scholar on Tantra". Sir John may have been one of the first Western scholars to be really interested and translated tantric texts, but the foremost of all - no. The foremost scholars of tantra have been and will be found in the traditional schools of tantra.
This article should discuss different schools of tantra: Kaula, Mishra and Samaya. There is very good article on topic of tantra by Swami Jnaneshvara (disciple of Swami Rama Tirtha) http://www.swamij.com/tantra.htm Also http://www.realization.org/page/doc0/doc0050.htm reflects some light on the topic. --Arjuna 04:41, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Removed Link To Tantra.com
Tantra.com is a neotantra sex website, and more to the point it is a commercial website- who the hell is putting it up here? I think I removed it once before.... Advertising is NOT allowed. ThanksShiva bakta 08:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)Shiva_bakta
Added some text on Kundalini, and how it relates to Hinudism, esp Theory of Karma. Are any sections too confusing-pls let me know. I have also added a section on Left/Right Handed path, based on my own personal knowledge and experience.
Some people might say why include Kundalini at all, as it is such a secertive field. But I disagre. Many New Agers and so called Neo Tantriks have spread a lot of bullshit. Kundalini is now just a way of sex enjoyment, or method of getting supernatural powers. Its original purpose, Nirvana or Moksha, has been lost. This leads to a lot of superstistion like a certain Lady in India who claims to open Kundalini in few hours! The reader has to be very careful about being ripped off, and so any information is good. Shiva bakta 09:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)Shiva_bakta
The previous section on Hindu Tantra said stuff like "Vedic rituals and Tantra are different". I have rewritten the section to show why they are not, giving references from books that are easily available in the West. I also added a section to show why Hindu tantra discourages free sex. It is based entirely on my knowledge of Ayurveda and Yoga. Do my Buddhist friends agree with me- what is your philosophy? user:Shiva_bakta
I agree with your point, but have deleted the reference to aurobindo and changed the accusatory tone of the paragraph. I also made the section more objective and less opinionated. - supernaut76
Hello! I would like to see this section on "Tantra" to be broken down into two sections! Hindu and Buddhist as there are diffenrences between them and as they belong to different religions. --Mitrapa 02:09, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)Mitrapa
==> I have put a section on the similarities between Tantra. The differences are merely in the Religious Dogma- What Hindus call Shiva, Buddhits call Buddha, and the Shaktas call Mother. Shiva bakta 08:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)Shiva_bakta
There are three types of Tantric Sex: White, Gray, and Black. White Tantra never ejaculates nor reaches orgasm in order to awaken consciousness. Gray Tantra elongates the sexual act, and sometimes concludes with orgasm/ejaculation, but without any longing towards awakening consciousness. Black Tantra always concludes with orgasm/ejaculation in order to awaken consciousness. It is said that White Tantra awakens consciousness to the absence of desire, while Black Tantra awakens consciousness into desire.
I am fairly well read on the topic of tantra and I have never seen this classification system. Is this from some neo-tantric writings? I'm pretty sure it is not a traditional classification scheme, and as such, needs to include some information about where this system is derived from or described. What is the source of these assertions? — Adityanath 15:41, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Sex is just sex and I do not think there are any white grey black or any color tantra sex. Tantra in my understanding is a philosophy, that uses energries to reach a state of mind which in pure and non dual. Correct me it I am wrong.(jagan@wlink.com.np)
I suspect the Mike Magee linked to in the article is a different Mike Magee to the one that translated this passage (if it isn't Sri Lokanath Maharaj as one website claims). But if anyone knows better please delete this comment. Shantavira 18:16, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
80.231.218.11 added a large section that was copied from http://sivasakti.com/articles/tantra/art25.html. I have removed this section, if anyone feels that this added useful content, pls let me know, we can work out some new text. S.N. Hillbrand 18:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
217.212.20.126 Added a bunch of stuff that seems off, not my article, thought I'd edit to let ya know something funny happened. kodemage--24.14.228.236 06:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By my Monier-Williams sanskrit dictionary, tantra does not mean 'to weave.' I checked Apte as well, just to make certain but it definitely has a primary translation of 'loom'. However, there is a good argument to be made that the primary tranlation is not the acurrate on in this regard, but rather than tantra actually refers to the uninterrupted vertical thread of a loom; symbolizing a continuous teaching.
Have never, ever posted to Wikipedia, so be gentle. :-) Not even sure how I got here, or whether I can get back again.
Am trying to research alternatives to traditional western relationships and sexuality and finding some information Extremely difficult to come by. Of the literally Thousands of "Tantra" websites that I've found, None have been able to answer my questions; How popular is Tantra in the US? How many people (approximately) practice Tantra? How many people in the US purchase Tantric centered books or magazines, or attend workshops? Can anyone point me in the right direction? I'm trying to get a feel for the demographics and popularity of Tantrik practice in general (regardless of the specific school) in the US.
No, this isn't for any sort of news thing. It's a personal project and something that I've been working on for about 3yrs.
To people watching this page, I apologize for removing so many links. For some reason, this page seems to attract anonymous posters posting pseudo-spiritual or commercial links. Maybe this is just the nature of the topic. If anyone believes that a link I have removed has informative value to readers of this page, please leave a note in the talk when you post it (or in the post comment) and I'll discuss its contents with you before doing anything. I definitely do not want to discourage additional information (anonymous or otherwise) but I'd like to keep the page informative vice apologetic. S.N. Hillbrand 01:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Hillbrand, sorry that I did my changes as an anonymous - my German login didn't work on the English wikipedia for some reason, so I created a new login to react to your text above. I did the text about Tantramassage as a part of Neo Tantra. Tantramassage is a quite big movement in Europe, specially in Germany where it started. My English is not perfect, so there might be some mistakes in the way I put it into words - but i really think there is additional information in my text. www.tantramassage is the site with most information in English about the topic, it is a company's website - don't know how strict you want to deal with links to companys. EarthWater 18:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Hillbrand, dear Csbondine, I appreciate your attention on the topic - still I really would prefer the topic to stay in the main tantra article, as it gives an answer to how to practice tantric ideas (or at least they are inspired by tantra). The Neo tantra article in German is quite new and focusses mainly on the Scene of tantra workshops / seminars. Anyway I know that dealing with tantra in practice (not only theory) brings up discussion because of its sexual nature, it would not be honest to keep this part out of the articel. EarthWater 22:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Hillbrand,
I do not agree to the move. Tantra is in general a sex related topic, it was sex relatet for several thousands of years - not only in theory. I read Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not and do not see that it explains your changes. This Article is about tantra with all its aspects, just because YOU don't like a certain aspect it doesn't mean that you give it an other name and put it away. Neotantra is a word that came up very recently - who made it up? is it relevant enough to be an articel on its own ?? Is it the right word to describe the active Tantra szene in the English speaking parts of the world ? EarthWater 16:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Just wanting to suggest the idea of adding a link somewhere in the article to the wikipedia stub on "White Tantrism". Perhaps under the "See Also" section as being a link under a heading of Gnostic Tantra or Gnosis Tantra or Tantra in Gnosticism? In gnosis it is also refered to as Alchemy so perhaps link somewhere to the Alchemy article would be appropriate and vice versa?
David 19/01/06
What I know about tantra is entirely in regards to extremely unusual sex practices, from sex for hours without climax, to sex among corpses guided by an assumably crazed guru. Orthadox hindu's (in my experience) regard it as witchery designed to provide unnatural powers to the practicioner based upon his desires, rather than thru enlightenment and renunciation to God's will. The fact that it has caught on in western pop-culture in no way reduces the signifigance of the obvious criticisms. I am no expert regarding tantra, and have no ready citations available, but instead I speak only from what I know on the subject. It is my opinion that the article could do with a greater degree of scrutiny and explanation of critical views regarding this highly unusual method. Sam Spade 11:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I think you both make good points, I admit my ignorance and tertiary sources, and mean no offense. That said, I do think a more detailed discussion of criticism and the responses to it is necessary. Sam Spade 12:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
This passage seems judgemental and POV. Could someone who knows about tantra neutralise it?
--Hugh7 05:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There's a minor comment in the article about how "Indian journalism" portrays Tantrism as "black magic" but with cases like these: [2] maybe there's a reason for that and it should be expanded. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
In the first paragraph of the article the author referred to some form of tantra being practiced by South-Asian muslims, but no citation is provided, can we get more details on this? Sufitul 3:12, 14 April (UTC)
I would like to suggest a link to the separate 5 Ms page for a further in detail analysis of the meaning of 5 Ms. The theory of Shrii Shrii Anandamurti on the subject is covered there, but more interpretations should be added. cJ --Cracker jack 14:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is no longer neutral. Several sections list no references and seem to me to be written in the style of essays. The factual accuracy of some of the statements made seem hard to verify. TheRingess 00:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
==> Which sections? Who gave you policing power?
Even though this section cited some of its sources, this section read too much like a personal essay. Even the title is suggestive of an essay. If reinstated, I suggest shortening, a different title, footnotes and a neutral tone. TheRingess 01:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Ditto for this section. Upon reading it there were too few sources and it read too much like an essay. TheRingess 01:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
==>You have removed a lot of other sections, like link between Vedas and Tantra, link b/w Hindu and Buddhist Tantra, even these 2 topics had enough sources. It seems just are biased against Hindus in general, since you have only edited those parts that relate to Hindus. May I ask the reason why? Or forget it- I dont have time for a battle.
TheRingess has deleted more than 50% of the article, including portions that have existed for a long time. She has even deleted portions that had references(as mentioned above). Why? Does this qualify as vandalism? I might question why a Westerner would edit and delete portions of a chapter on Hinduisim. Well, thats ok. This is a White mans club, and anything that doesnt agree with White Mans version has to go.
No probs. I am leaving this place- I have been told several times that this is a Western club, and if we like our own view, we should create our own club(these were the exact words, I am not exaggerating). I think I will finally do this.
TheRingess, you can revert the article back to the way it was originally, written by your White friends. Good bye, you wont be hearing from me again. Shiva bakta 14:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Shiva_bakta
Agree with Ringness, but also though that Shiva_bhakta made a crucial point. I have completely rewritten the section for a more NPOV. Will append my references shortly. This is probably white mans burden, but then we do have a specific mandate and there are always the links for more subjective POV's. The actual practise of tantra should not be carried out by reading an encyclopedia anyways! --Supernaut76 23:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The tags in the article are there because the sections are not properly cited. WP policies change. It is now no longer sufficient to simply list your reference at the end and be done with it. You have to cite your sources inline in the article, see WP:CITE. —Hanuman Das 00:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The following three sentences were copied word for word from David Gordon White's Introduction to Tantra in Practice. This is not acceptable. —Hanuman Das 00:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I was too hasty and too bold with my previous edits. I will endeavour to be contribute positively to this article.TheRingess 02:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
This section, to me, reads like an essay. It seems to me to be original research. This sentence in particular:
seems to be very pov. I think someone could rewrite the section to be more encyclopedic in tone (less conclusions, more point by point examples and comparison). I don't think that's me, though. If no one is interested in rewriting it, then I think it should be deleted.TheRingess 02:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed that I need to work on the wording to make it more neutral. However I think deleting it would be overly harsh. This POV is a essentially Tantric and I believe that it is important that it be communicated in some form ( but perhaps not as I have worded it). --Supernaut76 08:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I've been looking through the recent changes and there is a lot of editing going on related to Neotantra and Neotantrics. Since there is an article on Neotantra, shouldn't most of this be moved there with only a one or two paragraph mention here? -999 (Talk) 16:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Large chunks of this article are utterly meaningless to a novice. It needs to be rewritten objectively and from an external perspective.
I agree. I've made a proposed edit, to simplify for the novice. No need to shock the viewer with a phd-level formal introduction, especially as the term is becoming mainstream. Please look it over and see what you think, ye more experienced wikipedians..
BTW, does anybody find it interesting that Wikipedia basically embodies the concept of Tantra? Any chance we could get a reference to that in the article somewhere? I think that'd be great, but it might not be the right place for such a claim/suggestion...
- Austin, 29 Mar 2008 76.187.192.211 (talk) 20:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Is the Yoga template really appropriate for this article? It seems to me from just a brief reading of the article, that Yoga and Tantra are only related in that both originated in India. TheRingess (talk) 00:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence from the intro.
In the west, early European Orientalists originally reviled Tantra as a subversive, antisocial, licentious and immoral force that had corrupted classical Hinduism. On the other hand many today see it as a celebration of social equity, sexuality and the body.[1]
It seems to me that this sentence belongs more in a history section. It also seems to me to be a summary of a very interesting idea though the article does not seem to expand upon it later. As a casual reader, I want to know the context behind the statement. In other words, what was it about the Europeans or Tantra that caused them to form such a negative view?
TheRingess (talk) 01:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the article use more strict inline reference format, including page numbers for each citation in order to improve verifiability. Would there be any objection to upgrading the references in this way? Buddhipriya 02:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no real reason why this article could not be developed into a Featured Article (see WP:FACR). Per a suggestion from a fellow editor, the best way to make this happen is to form a team with the specific goal of bringing this article up to FA status.
I propose that we form a team for that express purpose.
If you are interested then please consider the following
If enough editors are interested, we could make this a subpage.
Our mission is to bring the Tantra article to "Featured Article" status, nothing less.
Namasteinagape
Walking my talk in Beauty
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 03:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we use this section to set goals for our team. When enough of us believe that the goal is achieved we can mark the milestone as accomplished
Here are Wikipedia's guidelines for "B" class articles.
Has several of the elements described in "start", usually a majority of the material needed for a completed article. Nonetheless, it has significant gaps or missing elements or references, needs substantial editing for English language usage and/or clarity, balance of content, or contains other policy problems such as copyright, Neutral Point Of View WP:NPOV or No Original Research WP:NOR. With NPOV a well written B-class may correspond to the "Wikipedia 0.5" or "usable" standard. Articles that are close to GA status but don't meet the Good article criteria should be B- or Start-class articles.
Please review the article keeping those guidelines in mind and add your thoughts about what we need to do to bring the article to "B" status below, or add an action item to the To Do list. Thanks. TheRingess (talk) 15:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
TheRingess (talk) 16:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I support the merger request, as the two articles seem to be covering the same ground. Buddhipriya 02:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm against the merger, as tantra, the philosophy and tantras, the writings, are two different things. There really should be more information on the writings themselves on Wikipedia in general, and a merger would make the Tantra article too bloated. --Snowgrouse 20:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
True Tantras and Tantra are not the same. Tantras are the set of books that define a way of Tantra. Whereas Tantra in itself in the practice of the system. So the request for merging both the entry should be withdrawn. A lot of subsection can go into both these titles. Saravana Kumar K 23:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article covers the Indian point of view more and the other covers the Western point of view more. That in itself seems to indicate that two separate articles are warranted, because these two viewpoints will have wildly different audiences
They shouldn't be merged, however some of the Tantras post material should be referenced in Tantra article Sasisekhara.sarasvati 17:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC) -- Anonymous because Wikipedia does not allow user names with underscores.
In order to get some improvement in the quality of the article I feel that only strong sources should be used, and that all additions to content should use inline citations to establish verifiability. There is a great deal of WP:FRINGE material on this subject, all of which should be excluded. I would like to see the article sourced mainly from books published by recognized academic sources. Buddhipriya 19:07, 19 May 2007
Just going by the references cited in the article so far, which ones are you looking at excluding? Supernaut76 12:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Agree completely that the standards need to me rigorous. Are you suggesting getting rid of all the material that does not have the appropriate in-line referencing? If so is this a team effort that would involve replacing them with more suitable material?
That sounds quite sensible to me. Supernaut76 22:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Shambhavi Saraswati gives a description of the difference between real Tantra and Neotantra:
"Neo-Tantra ritualizes sex. Authentic Tantra sexualizes ritual".[2]
Buddhipriya 01:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Once the desire for sex is satisfied, a mind can enter Tantra...
Please excuse me for talking out of turn here. I cannot find a specific discussion of the links category, and I don't know enough about Wikipedia to start one. However, my blog has periodically been the subject of discussion here. I have no comment to make about the quote that was deleted. However, I want to comment on the "no links" policy and the inclusion of the Open Directory listing under Tantra as the only link. While you are trying to figure out what to do with the Tantra entry, please make some reasonable attempt to direct people to meaningful other sites. The Open Directory is nearly defunct. The sites one is led to by clicking on the sole remaining link here are a motley crew. There are even blogs on that list! (Oh, the horror!)Shiva Shakti Mandalam, the web's most authoritative source of information about I won't offer to suggest sites, as I presume, having been booted off the links list, my referrals would not pass muster. So, I appeal to you, please step up and help out the people who are sincerely looking for good resources. OM Shanti, Shambhavi Sarasvati (shambhavi 03:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC))
During the subsequent decline of Buddhism in India, most of Sanskrit originals of the Buddhist literature were lost. But as countless texts were brought from India and translated from Sanskrit into Tibetan, Tibet has preserved much of the Indian Buddhist tradition, even those parts which no longer have any use or meaning. It is not surprising, therefore, that we should find evidence of lost Indian traditions in Tibetan sources.
It also contains some intersting items in the bibliography. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
A few thoughts on the article as a whole... Tantra is a heterodox subject. The two primary threads of this tradition can easily be divided between the monastic (non-sexual) and excuse the term, pagan or (sexually inclusive, ie. sexual and non-sexual observances). The delineation between different takes on the subject can be identified by citation related to specific guru lineages and specific traditions/writers. This gives the reader some delineation to follow in order to obtain more information on origins and development of any particular school of thought and practice. Not all schools overlap except in the name of Tantra. Without a clear assessment of origins, we have only a noisy chorus of competing views. Using the two main schools and delineating content on guru/cited traditions is an organising construct which could give focus to a cleaner rebuilding of this article. This is a particularly important consideration in the construction of the best sub-sections to be included in the article. It's a considered thought. -Vritti 03:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
One step that team members could do is simply to share information on what sources they personally consider strong. Editors may disagree over sources in general, and these types of diaglogs can help establish what is "fair game" to cite. Here are some specific sources that I would like to make use of:
{{cite book}}
: |first=
has generic name (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (help). This is a good collection of recent studies by Western academics covering a range of detailed issues. It contains the influential essay "What Do We Mean by Tantrism?" by André Padoux which takes eight pages to explain why the term is virtually meaningless as a general category.During the subsequent decline of Buddhism in India, most of Sanskrit originals of the Buddhist literature were lost. But as countless texts were brought from India and translated from Sanskrit into Tibetan, Tibet has preserved much of the Indian Buddhist tradition, even those parts which no longer have any use or meaning. It is not surprising, therefore, that we should find evidence of lost Indian traditions in Tibetan sources.
It also contains some intersting items in the bibliography. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Much of the detailed literature tackles specific regional issues or details individual traditions. A very good example with a focus on Śākta tantric tradition is:
{{cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(help). This work is particularly interesting because it struggles to classify a particular tantric text (the Tripura Upanishad) which does not fit very conviently into any of the standard pigeonholes. This classification problem gives Brooks the opportunity to launch into a very good discussion of "what do we mean by tantrism" that takes 18 pages (pp. 55-72) to present ten "descriptive characteristics" that he uses to try to deal with the blind men and the elephant problem. The book is worth reading just for that analysis.Buddhipriya 20:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is an example of an edit which added or changed semantic meaning of a statement which previously cited a specific source. Please do not make changes to sourced statements, as this type of edit results in the unsourced material appearing to be part of the original citation. Of course if the text of the original source was consulted in making the edit, that would be another matter. If this article is ever to improve we must make efforts to improve the attention given to sources. Here is the problem edit: [5] Buddhipriya 22:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 07:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC) This is what has been stated differently in the newer edits following which include the dichotomy of left-handed and right-handed practice and practitioners within the subcategory of Kaula Tantra or external, outer practices.
There has been another unsourced addition by an editor who has previously been asked to comply with Wikipedia:Verifiability: [6]. Since I have reverted this once, I will ask other editors to consider if this type of unsourced material is appropriate for the article, which will never improve unless we get more focus on WP:RS. I would like some feedback from other editors regarding the need to comply with sourcing. Buddhipriya 06:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Swami Jnaneshvara Bharati and Swami Rama state that there are three principal entwined subcategories of the Tantric path: Kaula, Mishra and Samaya. These categories are cognate with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's: Outer, Inner and Secret practices. Different traditions emphasise these subcategories and establish various strata and state that they are definitive. In Tantric traditions there is no ultimate strata or hierarchy and a hierarchic overlay obscures understanding of sycretic teachings. Kaula Tantra includes the division of left-handed and right-handed practices. Left handed practices such as the Panchamakara and Ganachakra, instituted by the Mahasiddha are conducted only symbolically by the right-handed tantrikas who are often constrained by vows.
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 06:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, yes, the Tantric trinity was included in Dzogchen Gankyil teachings in Namkhai Norbu's Crystal and the Way of Light (both editions) as well as Tenzin Wangyal's Healing with Form, Energy and Light where they are referred to as Outer, Inner and Secret. I came across the Sanskrit and Hindu tradition names for these on the Internet at the following site for the first time today and recognised them as correlates: [8]; [9]; 'tantra' @ [10]; and[11]; et. al. Unfortunately, I do not have a print source for the teaching within the Hindu tradition but provided the names of two people in the tantric sampradaya or lineage as oral verification. I hope that somebody may ford this teaching in concrete scholarship by the 'fact' label or mechanism to which you make reference. Thank you very much for introducing me to that functionality and deixis. You assert that I included a direct quotation in my edits but by memory I only inaugurated an indirect quotation and therefore your stated reason for the deletion of my contribution is bunk. I appreciate BP and her adroit contributions, as well as her stringent adherence to rules and regulations...but BP is using her knowledge of Wikipedian rules to strong-arm a knowledgable practitioner and negate my work where her energy and resourcefullness would be better served with others less adept. My edits are to provide directives for people to flesh out articles... I am not interested in the rules of Wikipedia per se: I focus on the Law and LoreofDharma.
Respectfully
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 15:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 16:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Vritti, Cognate is akin to correlate and corollary and cognate implies a common origin: in this situation the concept is cognate; by "cognating" I infer you mean a thinking or cognitive process or activity that involves bodymind 'manas' and ego 'ahamkara'. Given your handle Vritti, your use of the grammatical infinitive 'cognating' which is a derivative from the base term 'cognate' is pointed.
Outer, Inner and Secret are Vajrayana, Dzogchen and Bon pedagogic categories (all of which are tantric systems that have elements transposed from Indian Buddhism and Indian Tantra); and I referenced them above in response to TheRingness' request. They have a Sanskritic correlate in Kaula, Mishra, & Samaya, which I found included in a number of websites on Tantra but have been as yet unable to procure a scholarly point of origin in English. So this is a {fact} that should be explored. This source [12] (accessed: 21 June 2007) has an interesting footnote, cited verbatum:
"260 For a discussion of the religious situation of the period, with its various Hindu sects and new Tantric (Kaula) movements, see now A. Sanderson, Purity and power, p. 190-216."
This Sanderson article is in the following publication:
Alexis Sanderson, Purity and power among the Brahmans of Kashmir, in: The category of the person. Anthropology, philosophy, history, ed. M. Carrithers, S. Collins, S. Lukes, Cambridge, CUP 1985, p. 213 n. 91.
Now that is a lead on Kaula tantra.
Sincerely
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 15:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Chapter 18 of White's Tantra in Practice (refer [13]) is The Necklace of Immortality: A Seventeenth-Century Vaisnava Sahajiya Text by Glen A. Hayes. Hence, certain traditions and practices of Vaishavism have Tantric elements. B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 16:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Extracted from the abovementioned source is the following paragraph on Vaishnava Tantra which names particular tantric hindu sects (and was provided particularly for Vritti...cintamani):
"The practice of Tantric forms of Yoga is often linked to Shaktism and Shaivism, though Vaishnava (and Buddhist) forms of Tantrism also exist. Tantric teachings are complex and varied, but generally aim at providing the adept with the means to harness divine potency in order to gain salvation. Tantrism was most prominent in India between the 8th and 14th centuries CE, when its teachings were widely disseminated, most especially in Kashmir, Bengal, Odisha, Kerala and Madhya Pradesh. The Vaishnava Tantric sects have links to the followers of Chaitanya and are found mainly in Bengal where they are known as the Sahajiyas and Bauls. Elsewhere Tantrism is most commonly associated with the worship of Shiva, the Goddess or both." B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 18:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
From Avalon's Shakti and Shâkta (1918): "Chapter One: Indian Religion As Bharata Dharma":
"Wherever there is Sadhana...there is the system of the Tantra...Arthur Avalon...expressed his surprise at the similarity which exists between the Roman Catholic and the Tantrik mode of Sadhana. The Tantra has made the Yoga-system of Patañjali easily practicable and has combined with it the Tantrik rituals and the ceremonial observances (Karma-kanda); that is the reason why the Tantrik system of Sadhana has been adopted by all the religious sects of India. If this theory of the antiquarians, that the Tantra was brought into India from ChaldeaorShakadvipa be correct, then it may also be inferred that the Tantra passed from Chaldea to Europe. The Tantra is to be found in all the strata of Buddhism; the Tantrik Sadhana is manifest in Confucianism; and Shintoism is but another name of the Tantrik cult. Many historians acknowledge that the worship of Shakti or Tantrik Sadhana which was prevalent in Egypt from ancient times spread into Phoenicia and Greece. Consequently we may suppose that the influence of the Tantra was felt in primitive Christianity." (NB: original source not meta-enhanced: refer [15])
This paragraph is about the corollary Mysteries of the ancient world, Greece, Egypt, Babylon, India, etc.: Ganachakra, is a manifestation of this secret Sadhana, as are the Eleusinian Mysteries, Agape feast, Catholic Mass, etc. Now Ganachakra nor Mystery wasn't mentioned, are any of you going to challenge my reading of this paragraph because I KNOW the subject? If so, why? Ganachakra is cognate with Avalon's usage of Panchatattva (which is cognate with Panchamakara, refer [16]....*hehehehehehe* B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 17:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Tantra etymology. Another source of word tantra is derived from roots of sanskrit words tannoti and trayati (expand and liberate). - Additional subsection: Dualistic Tantra vs. Non Dual Tantra (comparative with patanjali-based traditions e.g. shaiva siddhanta and Kashmir Shaivism) - Shakta Tantra vs Shaiva tantra differentiator and commonality - Add Ritual as one of the primary parts of tantra - Left hand path vs Right hand path
Last time I made changes in the page the were removed. So I wanted to run them by you all. It is important that items above a represented in the article to a provide a true understanding of tantra in the East. Sasisekhara.sarasvati 17:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
-- I did cite the sources indeed (not for every sentence, however). What is the way for me to proceed. Should I make the edits with references directly in the article?75.22.177.142 17:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The following material appears to be WP:OR, and the person who posted it has been putting similar material on multiple articles where it has been reverted. Here is an example of a related edit that was reverted elsewhere: [17] I would like other editors to give an opinion on this material, which follows: Buddhipriya 09:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Avalon (1918) [4] does provide a useful dichotomy of the "Ordinary Ritual" [5] and the "Secret Ritual" [6], where the secret ritual is referred to as the Panchatattva which is directly equated by Avalon with the Panchamakara and the "Cakrapuja" or Ganachakra. Importantly for scholarly Tantric discourse, Avalon also equates the Panchatattva with the Mahabhuta and the Panchamrita. The term "panchatattva" is also employed by the Gaudiya Vaishanava Tradition [7] to refer to a five-fold mystery comparable to the Christian Trinityortriune which betrays a tantric influence to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
Because of the wide range of communities covered by the term tantra, it is challenging and problematic to describe tantric practices definitively. Avalon (1918) [8] does provide a useful dichotomy of the "Ordinary Ritual" [9] and the "Secret Ritual" [10], where the secret ritual is referred to as the Panchatattva which is directly equated by Avalon with the Panchamakara and the "Cakrapuja" or Ganachakra. Importantly for scholarly Tantric discourse, Avalon also equates the Panchatattva with the Mahabhuta and the Panchamrita. The term "panchatattva" is also employed by the Gaudiya Vaishanava Tradition [11] to refer to a five-fold mystery comparable to the Christian Trinityortriune which betrays a tantric influence to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 09:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs)
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 10:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)